§witch
Smash Lord
This is directed at Neb, what are your thoughts? 65:45, or 70:30?
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The NEW falco match-up thread, MK time, week 2.
- Thread starter §witch
- Start date
Neb
Smash Lord
70:30 at most, IMO.
I mean, you gotta look at it overall. The meat of Falco's metagame is shutdown by crouching and the bucket. Once G&W hits 30's and can no longer be CG'd, he can be campy by ignoring the blaster to draw Falco inside, once inside, G&W out-prioritizes the majority of Falco's moves, and can really punish.
Disadvantages
+Blaster is shutdown
+Out Prioritized on land and air
+Recovery is gimpable
+CG useful only at low percentages
+Dthrow combos can be avoided with UpB's invincibility frames
+Dthrow/Uthrow Trap capitalized by lack of escape-routes
+Little Defense against bair and dair (vertical blindspot)
+Juggle ****
+Difficult to approach with high priority tilts/aerials/smashes
+Incredibly hard to gimp, especially from below
Advantages
+G&W is light (Early KO)
+Dthrow follow-ups are nasty
+Shine/Laser can stuff/out-space aerials
+Better Taunts?
Er. Its a really uphill match guys, you gotta space tightly, use your laser and shine every now and then. And if your in a rut, don't challenge the bair, just run and b-reversal a shot, punish the stun, and space some more. Keep Usmash and dsmash fresh, dsmash because G&W's low horizontal return is lacking. Make good use of empty SH's, and try those dthrow getaways, they could prove useful.
Also, don't pick flat stages, they make it easier to avoid the blaster.
§witch
Smash Lord
K, so yoshi's island is our best bet. I'm just going to quote that post and pop it on the front page, k?
Neb
Smash Lord
S'cool. Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes, and any other level that transitions. But if I remember correctly, Falco is better with stages that are stationary, so it depends on the player.
BsdKid4ever
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 30
Ok, shifting over to meta knight a little bit...
I'd say 75:25ratio in falco's favor, mk is easily shield-grabbed to the low 30s, lasers totally Rö£ him, the shine and lasers outprioritize his tornado, and if you time it right, your dair can cancel his shuttle loop and spike him, or at least stop it (not tested yet), and finally, mk has virtually no way to approach with a barrage of lasers coming his way.
But...every battle has 2 sides...
but not this 1, falco just pwns mk =P
I'd say 75:25ratio in falco's favor, mk is easily shield-grabbed to the low 30s, lasers totally Rö£ him, the shine and lasers outprioritize his tornado, and if you time it right, your dair can cancel his shuttle loop and spike him, or at least stop it (not tested yet), and finally, mk has virtually no way to approach with a barrage of lasers coming his way.
But...every battle has 2 sides...
but not this 1, falco just pwns mk =P
§witch
Smash Lord
MK has no bad match-ups, snake is the closest thing to an MK counter, and it's 55-45. Falco v MK is even at best.
B-Mon
Smash Journeyman
Only letterbomb can decide when to begin.
Wait for his word.
Plus i think 75:25 is way too much for "The almighty Meta-Knight".
§witch
Smash Lord
We're done with G&W, on to MK.
It's pretty even I'd say, although I usually prefer to fight MKs with my Wolf...(for some odd reason)
MK is a fast faller, don't forget that (many people think he's floaty but he drops like a spacey) so make use of your CG against him...I'm not sure at how much % he can use his shuttle loop but just use a regular attack at him before that. Lasers aren't too effective but I found the reflector quite useful, since it can slow him down a bit. He also dies @ low %
On the other side, MK outranges Falco in close combat and has more speed/priority. He can Edgeguard him like mad and stuff
50:50 or 45:55 for MK
MK is a fast faller, don't forget that (many people think he's floaty but he drops like a spacey) so make use of your CG against him...I'm not sure at how much % he can use his shuttle loop but just use a regular attack at him before that. Lasers aren't too effective but I found the reflector quite useful, since it can slow him down a bit. He also dies @ low %
On the other side, MK outranges Falco in close combat and has more speed/priority. He can Edgeguard him like mad and stuff
50:50 or 45:55 for MK
Beetle Juice
Smash Journeyman
close range metaknight tends to spam down smashes most or the time along with spot dodges and d-tilts. their tornadoe is too risky up close since we can punish it with any attack since it doesn't have as much priority in the start of it. a short hop fast fall arial can give up some distance if not spot dodge until he down smash then down smash him. in other words, our down smash can punish his down smash.
when mk is approaching, he will most like approach from the ground since your lasers will stop him from approahing from the air, ofcourse unless he is really high up from laser range. if mk does this, then just phantasm away from him and reapeat the process. when ever mk is dashing towards you use your shine to slow down his momemtum. when using the phantasm when he is approaching you, i recommend you use it phantasm range (LOL), not too close and not too far either to avoid getting punished by metaknights speed and attacks (including grabs) in which he will put you in the air. also when approached it may not be a good idea to spot dodge, he will pivot grab or dash attack in which he will be behind you. what is possible to do in these situation is quickly turn your back towards mk and shield that way you will be able to shield grab him (chain grab at low percents) and avoid punishments.
by the way mk don't arial approach (hardly) because its easily shield and they don't want to get chain grabbed (aka ***-grabbing) and punished (arials, smash can work too).
this match up is a little close to even but it is still in mk's favor
when mk is approaching, he will most like approach from the ground since your lasers will stop him from approahing from the air, ofcourse unless he is really high up from laser range. if mk does this, then just phantasm away from him and reapeat the process. when ever mk is dashing towards you use your shine to slow down his momemtum. when using the phantasm when he is approaching you, i recommend you use it phantasm range (LOL), not too close and not too far either to avoid getting punished by metaknights speed and attacks (including grabs) in which he will put you in the air. also when approached it may not be a good idea to spot dodge, he will pivot grab or dash attack in which he will be behind you. what is possible to do in these situation is quickly turn your back towards mk and shield that way you will be able to shield grab him (chain grab at low percents) and avoid punishments.
by the way mk don't arial approach (hardly) because its easily shield and they don't want to get chain grabbed (aka ***-grabbing) and punished (arials, smash can work too).
this match up is a little close to even but it is still in mk's favor
Falco's air game is weak compared to MK's. But really, there aren't many characters who can beat MK in the air. Stay on the ground.
Use the bread and butter of Falco's arsenal, Lasers and Grabs. Spam lasers like no other. Make the opponent approach. Also, it's all we have against his Mach Tornado. Get close to him at low percentages and grab, grab, grab.
Falco's recovery, as we all know, is subpar so MK has many options for gimping. Our main form of recovery, the phantasm, is outprioritized and destroyed by MK's tornado. If you see him ready to cut down your phantasm, sweetspot the ledge.
MK's recovery is too good with all his options and five jumps. This is where his light weight comes into play. Upsmash is your friend. Silent laser to boostsmash works well on most MKs.
MK doesn't have bad matchups but Falco is one of the most difficult to handle. Spam lasers, grab, boostsmash are your tools for winning here.
Use the bread and butter of Falco's arsenal, Lasers and Grabs. Spam lasers like no other. Make the opponent approach. Also, it's all we have against his Mach Tornado. Get close to him at low percentages and grab, grab, grab.
Falco's recovery, as we all know, is subpar so MK has many options for gimping. Our main form of recovery, the phantasm, is outprioritized and destroyed by MK's tornado. If you see him ready to cut down your phantasm, sweetspot the ledge.
MK's recovery is too good with all his options and five jumps. This is where his light weight comes into play. Upsmash is your friend. Silent laser to boostsmash works well on most MKs.
MK doesn't have bad matchups but Falco is one of the most difficult to handle. Spam lasers, grab, boostsmash are your tools for winning here.
I kinda find it hard to perform the boostsmash because you have to press c-stick and up A almost at the same time
Is there anyone who has a better method and/or button configuration for this??
Beetle Juice
Smash Journeyman
c stick down + z upI kinda find it hard to perform the boostsmash because you have to press c-stick and up A almost at the same time
I don't use Z for grabbing though... z is shield and x is grab...Don't know if that's a problemc stick down + z up
Beetle Juice
Smash Journeyman
*hides in anti snake flame box and watches foxfear*I don't use Z for grabbing though... z is shield and x is grab...Don't know if that's a problem
good luck
lmfao
I don't know why this calls for a flame box. Change either L or R to attack (whichever you don't use to block, if neither, then pick what's most comfortable to you) and do Run->Cstick down->Up L or R
Anyways back to what this thread is suppose to be about. While I don't agree with you about the GaW match up there's nothing I can say about it seeing as no one reads a lot of what I say.
So I'll let you guys do it. Here's a match up video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LCrX4WjEdY
What did SK92 do that was good? What didn't he do that he should have? Where could he have evaded being hit for substantial amounts of damage? Where was he able to do substantial amounts of damage?
This thread doesn't have to be "What is the percent match up" thread. It's a discussion on what we as Falcos should look for in these match ups as well as what we should avoid. Good luck to all.
Anyways back to what this thread is suppose to be about. While I don't agree with you about the GaW match up there's nothing I can say about it seeing as no one reads a lot of what I say.
So I'll let you guys do it. Here's a match up video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LCrX4WjEdY
What did SK92 do that was good? What didn't he do that he should have? Where could he have evaded being hit for substantial amounts of damage? Where was he able to do substantial amounts of damage?
This thread doesn't have to be "What is the percent match up" thread. It's a discussion on what we as Falcos should look for in these match ups as well as what we should avoid. Good luck to all.
§witch
Smash Lord
Wait, what did you disagree with about the G&W match-up? SK92 had great DI control, he got out of the whorenade almost every time. He had control for quite awhile, but the second he lost it, DSF (lmao tier *****)was all over him. It seems that MK has an advantage, but not yoo much of one.
Blad01
Smash Lord
The other one wasn't dead, wtf ? It was holidays ôO
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
Falco has the slicks in range over MK. Since he doesn't have any projectiles, we can Spam Lasers and use the Shine and Fsmash to keep him from getting too close. But when I'm fighting MK, I do NOT prefer the air. Try to stay on the ground. Period.
sandwhale
Smash Journeyman
sk92 being the brilliant player he is gives the impression that his falco playstyle is what we should all be aiming for. but it's actually the opposite: his falco is very offensive and what you should be lookinf for is a much more defensive style. sk92 can hold is own playing like that cos of his skills but at a level as high as dsf's mk that won't be enough.
instead of constantly lazering and IAPing to keep in control of the match he would just throw lazers at close range to create an oppening and IAP only to get closer to mk which against that lagless little ****er just got him punished mostly by dsmash and tornado
so...in my opinion the key to winning is playing real defensively by mixing up lazers and IAP and the ocasional shine to stop him rushing at you, go for the grab at low percents and keep your usmash fresh for the kill. If you rush at him you will basically get spotdodged and then dsmashed. Be carefull if trying to edgeguard him too because your very likely to be the one to get gimped though there's no harm in shooting a few lazers while he's off the edge.
In close range it will quite likely be a battle of dsmashes where he's at an advantage with his being faster, less lag and i think more range. oh and a smart mk will space him self just out of your dsmash's reach and punish you with his. this sounds obvious but in the match that's something you don't pay much attention too and i often fall for that.
on a side note i really don't get why sk92 did so many reverse grabs none of them were usefull and at one moment he does dthrow to fsmash when he could have cg to spike wich would have done >50% can anyone explain this?
instead of constantly lazering and IAPing to keep in control of the match he would just throw lazers at close range to create an oppening and IAP only to get closer to mk which against that lagless little ****er just got him punished mostly by dsmash and tornado
so...in my opinion the key to winning is playing real defensively by mixing up lazers and IAP and the ocasional shine to stop him rushing at you, go for the grab at low percents and keep your usmash fresh for the kill. If you rush at him you will basically get spotdodged and then dsmashed. Be carefull if trying to edgeguard him too because your very likely to be the one to get gimped though there's no harm in shooting a few lazers while he's off the edge.
In close range it will quite likely be a battle of dsmashes where he's at an advantage with his being faster, less lag and i think more range. oh and a smart mk will space him self just out of your dsmash's reach and punish you with his. this sounds obvious but in the match that's something you don't pay much attention too and i often fall for that.
on a side note i really don't get why sk92 did so many reverse grabs none of them were usefull and at one moment he does dthrow to fsmash when he could have cg to spike wich would have done >50% can anyone explain this?
SlashTalon
Smash Ace
My MK strat: Mindgames. Nothing shold be done more than once unless you are sure it will work.
Stay grounded if your're in Marth tipper range and time your shield so that you don't waste it and get sheild stabbed by his multi hit aerials.
CG-spike-footstool=dead MK about 90% of the time. But this is of course is dangerous, use your better judgement.
Laser game is key at high percents. Upsmash is great kill move, keep it fresh with lasers. Upsmash also ends/clanks with the nado.
Ftilt is quick and good for spacing.
If he Down smashes, you should spotdodge Dsmash before he does something. If you're trapped sheilding near a spotdodge-dsmashing MK, I suggest just full hopping out and escaping with wavebounced lasers or just comeback in and attack
Oh and use your UpB offensively.
Dont...with the last part >_>
Stay grounded if your're in Marth tipper range and time your shield so that you don't waste it and get sheild stabbed by his multi hit aerials.
CG-spike-footstool=dead MK about 90% of the time. But this is of course is dangerous, use your better judgement.
Laser game is key at high percents. Upsmash is great kill move, keep it fresh with lasers. Upsmash also ends/clanks with the nado.
Ftilt is quick and good for spacing.
If he Down smashes, you should spotdodge Dsmash before he does something. If you're trapped sheilding near a spotdodge-dsmashing MK, I suggest just full hopping out and escaping with wavebounced lasers or just comeback in and attack
Oh and use your UpB offensively.
Dont...with the last part >_>
§witch
Smash Lord
The other was very dead.
0:44 Jumps right into MK and just shields
0:55 Air dodges into MK
0:57 Sat under MK's shuttle loop holding shield
1:02 Phantasm predicted
1:10 Tornado Shield poke (needed to hold up shield)
1:29 Ran into MK and shielded after a trip from reflector
1:35 Jump air dodge no spacing, attempted Forward smash
2:16 just shielded as MK glided to him and got hit off platform to a dsmash
2:39 stayed next to MK with jabs and spot dodges. Gets hit with dsmash.
3:04 jumped into MK and down air-ed. Shielded and UpB punished.
3:26 Did not space properly and punished(killed) with Dsmash
3:42 Fsmashed into MK(stayed next to MK) got shielded and Dsmashed.
4:19 DIed into MK and got Fsmashed.
4:39 Sat within MK's range with shield on.
4:44 Spot dodged Glide attack and punished with lagless Dsmash.
4:50 Down air into MK and got caught in MK jab attack
4:54 Out of MK jab he Dsmashed falco, didnt space DI the jab.
These are all problems I see in that match for SK92 vs DSF. Because I am listing these I am in no way calling SK92 bad or myself better, but they're things I noticed that he got punished for. SK92, if you see this, I hope you take this as constructive criticism and not me saying you're horrible. You've got plenty of people saying you're good to know that isn't true.
Does anyone see a pattern with all of these problems? What's the one common issue/flaw in SK92's playing style(as well as the style of a lot of Falcos) that ties the majority of these together?
0:55 Air dodges into MK
0:57 Sat under MK's shuttle loop holding shield
1:02 Phantasm predicted
1:10 Tornado Shield poke (needed to hold up shield)
1:29 Ran into MK and shielded after a trip from reflector
1:35 Jump air dodge no spacing, attempted Forward smash
2:16 just shielded as MK glided to him and got hit off platform to a dsmash
2:39 stayed next to MK with jabs and spot dodges. Gets hit with dsmash.
3:04 jumped into MK and down air-ed. Shielded and UpB punished.
3:26 Did not space properly and punished(killed) with Dsmash
3:42 Fsmashed into MK(stayed next to MK) got shielded and Dsmashed.
4:19 DIed into MK and got Fsmashed.
4:39 Sat within MK's range with shield on.
4:44 Spot dodged Glide attack and punished with lagless Dsmash.
4:50 Down air into MK and got caught in MK jab attack
4:54 Out of MK jab he Dsmashed falco, didnt space DI the jab.
These are all problems I see in that match for SK92 vs DSF. Because I am listing these I am in no way calling SK92 bad or myself better, but they're things I noticed that he got punished for. SK92, if you see this, I hope you take this as constructive criticism and not me saying you're horrible. You've got plenty of people saying you're good to know that isn't true.
Does anyone see a pattern with all of these problems? What's the one common issue/flaw in SK92's playing style(as well as the style of a lot of Falcos) that ties the majority of these together?
SlashTalon
Smash Ace
Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address!
I mean Spacing and Being predicted.
Pretty much what i said =D
My goodness, an answer to metaknight besides mindgames. It's amazing.
Now what are some moves or techniques that space use whether it hits their shield or not besides reflector, lasers, and IAP. And yes there are moves that space even people like metaknight
sandwhale
Smash Journeyman
did people not notice my post or just ignored it because it sucked? (if so there's no harm in telling me)
anyway for spacing i like to use ftilt, decent range, comes out quick, not much lag and bair especially for its priority. I also use jab if the mk gets too spotdodge happy.
anyway for spacing i like to use ftilt, decent range, comes out quick, not much lag and bair especially for its priority. I also use jab if the mk gets too spotdodge happy.
So are you guys going to let this match-up thread die too because you want to talk about how to practice Boost Smashing or Phantasm Canceling?
Against MK(And GaW which no one but 2 people really mentioned) we need to be able to space our attacks. Lasers, IAP, and Reflector are not attacks that space. They're attacks that camp.
A good start is Falco's Tilt, especially his side tilt for spacing; however, this move has lag and you can get punished for it.
What are other moves Falco can do for both situations where he's spacing them with his own attack or spacing them and punishing lag?
Against MK(And GaW which no one but 2 people really mentioned) we need to be able to space our attacks. Lasers, IAP, and Reflector are not attacks that space. They're attacks that camp.
A good start is Falco's Tilt, especially his side tilt for spacing; however, this move has lag and you can get punished for it.
What are other moves Falco can do for both situations where he's spacing them with his own attack or spacing them and punishing lag?
clowsui
Smash Legend
CG him for a free 50%
Tack on the other 60% with lasers, tilts and Nair/Dairs
Bait him with defensive play and go for the USmash
If he starts getting aggressive at higher percentages (most MKs will do that to even it up) DSmash
Angle shield upwards if he uses Tornado and Drop Shield -> USmash to punish
SET UP FOR LASER LOCKS! Most MKs - except for the really good ones - are bad at maintaining correct spacing. A backwards laser -> ftilt after the CG will set up for this well. If they start approaching too eagerly just like FTilt them and start lasering (be sure to do it at around 40 - 50 percent, ftilt tacks on about 12 with the tip of the foot so you want them to end up around 64-70). Easy 100 something percent
Play around with UTilt and Jab against a MK
Tack on the other 60% with lasers, tilts and Nair/Dairs
Bait him with defensive play and go for the USmash
If he starts getting aggressive at higher percentages (most MKs will do that to even it up) DSmash
Angle shield upwards if he uses Tornado and Drop Shield -> USmash to punish
SET UP FOR LASER LOCKS! Most MKs - except for the really good ones - are bad at maintaining correct spacing. A backwards laser -> ftilt after the CG will set up for this well. If they start approaching too eagerly just like FTilt them and start lasering (be sure to do it at around 40 - 50 percent, ftilt tacks on about 12 with the tip of the foot so you want them to end up around 64-70). Easy 100 something percent
Play around with UTilt and Jab against a MK
§witch
Smash Lord
Quick dash attack works wonders, I like his dtilt, but it has pretty bad range, and if you don't tipper it you'll get punished, I think utilt has almost the same range in front as dtilt does, but ftilt is the best spacing tilt. Now, a properly DI'ed nair can be fantastic, either FFed or not, you can hit them and DI back, or keep them in it for the whole thing and follow.
B-Mon
Smash Journeyman
D-tilt has more range than D-Smash. It Annoys me.
Just mess up MK's flow even though that will be hard since Meta's attacks are all relatively fast.
I believe the Spike can out-prioritize most of Meta's aerials if not all of them. Counter the 'Nado, KNOW when the shuttle loop is coming and EVADE EVADE EVADE.
Fairs? Laser them.
Anything else? Shield grab and follow-up.
Once in control, continue to pin him with SHLz, SHDLz.
Reember that the IAPh can be used to mess him over a bit. Once you do it twice back and forth,the MK should predict the third on so don't get too predicable.
Move around, get Shield happy, Have a Laserfest. UpSmash to celebrate.
Just mess up MK's flow even though that will be hard since Meta's attacks are all relatively fast.
I believe the Spike can out-prioritize most of Meta's aerials if not all of them. Counter the 'Nado, KNOW when the shuttle loop is coming and EVADE EVADE EVADE.
Fairs? Laser them.
Anything else? Shield grab and follow-up.
Once in control, continue to pin him with SHLz, SHDLz.
Reember that the IAPh can be used to mess him over a bit. Once you do it twice back and forth,the MK should predict the third on so don't get too predicable.
Move around, get Shield happy, Have a Laserfest. UpSmash to celebrate.
Beetle Juice
Smash Journeyman
anyways umm when are we getting to the next character?
Airborne
Smash Lord
i have always had trouble with G&W... my next door neighbor mains him and spams the key more than anyone else.... im not even sure if i can ever play Kingdom Hearts ever again.....
Airborne
Smash Lord
how about we talk about snake next? i've never done well against a good snake...
§witch
Smash Lord
Nope, most used characters first. K, I'll go edit, snake is next.