**The NEW competitive guide to Jigglypuff**

Grim Tuesday

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#81
You're completely wrong about the definition of WoP. It IS carrying the opponent off-stage and either killing them or preventing their recovery by using Bair and Fair.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wall%20of%20Pain



The additional ledge-snap distance is negligible and shouldn't warrant any mention.
I didn't realise the Urban Dictionary was such a good source for SSB information. -__-

This, is a wall:

While you cannot tell it specifically from this picture, walls are stationary. This means that they don't move under regular circumstances. They are also solid, this means that things cannot go through them.

Tell me, does Jigglypuff's WALL of Pain resemble the afore-mentioned wall in any way shape or form by your description?

Also let me draw your attention to Kirby's similar technique, the Fence of Pain. It is completely impossible to carry opponent's off-stage with this associated technique. Yet they both have in common the ability to weave bairs in and out to prevent an approach.

Meta-Knight has the ability to carry opponent's off-stage with his aerials easily, yet this technique has never been given a name (unlike Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain and Kirby's Fence of Pain).

Oh, and there is no reason not to mention it. No matter how negligible, it has saved me many times.
 
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#82
Being stationary is not implied in the definition of "wall". "Moving wall" is not oxymoronic.

ANYWAYS, I was under the impression that WoP originally referred to brickwalling approaches using fast, ranged aerials (b-air) and high air mobility back in Melee days, as GrimTuesday is describing. But you could definitely say things like "WoP him off the stage".

Does Sing actually extend your ability to grab the ledge? It only gives you a significant boost if you have a jump remaining.
 

Grim Tuesday

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#83
Being stationary is not implied in the definition of "wall". "Moving wall" is not oxymoronic.

ANYWAYS, I was under the impression that WoP originally referred to brickwalling approaches using fast, ranged aerials (b-air) and high air mobility back in Melee days, as GrimTuesday is describing. But you could definitely say things like "WoP him off the stage".

Does Sing actually extend your ability to grab the ledge? It only gives you a significant boost if you have a jump remaining.
...So, we're both right? I'm fine with that.

Sing definitely extends ledge-snap ability.
 

*JuriHan*

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#84
WoP isnt going to be happening to any good characters or more importantly, good players because of how little hit stun there is in brawl. Air dodge also says hi.
 

-LzR-

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#85
It's pretty **** easy to eat that airdodge, you know, we are not locked to bair spam, we have the advantage offstage. We can just wait, they are forced to do something, then we strike. That is how WoP works in Brawl.
 

*JuriHan*

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#86
oh? Show me offline footage of wop working against anyone decent. I'd like to see that.
 
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#87
Its not the player that decides whether it will work or not, its the character.
Obviously a smart mk won't get volleyed by bairs offstage, but at least half the cast can be safely edgaurded if you use the correct wop method on them.
 

-LzR-

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#88
Ever heard of airdodge? Opponents will do that during wop. You can punish it. Now go **** my fellow Jigglypuffs.
 

*JuriHan*

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#89
again footage....? Offline footage...?








That's ok. It was rhetorical. Because there is none. It doesn't happen because of the game mechanics of Brawl. It can happen on wifi. But wifi =/= offline.
 
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#90
Wifi game mechanics= offline game mechanics.
stop using that same argument in every discussion because you act like the game is entirely different offline and online. If you have a terrible connection...maybe, but if both players are close or have blue/green connections its barely different from an offline match imo
 

-LzR-

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#91
The better player will usually win in wifi, but it still is bad for competitive play with random lagspikes and over centralizing on prediction.
 
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#92
I'm not having this discussion again. Its clearly going no where and turning into a typical wifi vs offline discussion leading to no new input for the character. Wall of Pain is a staple for jigglypuff, just look at king in mlg melee days and now with hbox and mango these days. It works on most characters offline and off and if you can't perform its your own fault not the character's.
 

*JuriHan*

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#93
I'm not having this discussion again.
Then get out. As usual, you still don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going through this discussion again myself.

Wifi game mechanics= offline game mechanics.
lol.

\ Wall of Pain is a staple for jigglypuff, just look at king in mlg melee days and now with hbox and mango these days.
and tell me Woody, what game are they doing this in with Jigglpuff.....? Brawl? **** no, MELEE, where she had hitstun.

The better player will usually win in wifi, but it still is bad for competitive play with random lagspikes and over centralizing on prediction.
First part is a generalization, i've seen and even beaten players who can easily 2 stock me (and did) offline on wifi. Also I played my ex on wifi, we had a green connection, he was like 45 mins away. I won first game then he kept beating me although not by large margin. When we played offline i almost always won unless i wasnt playing patiently and it wasn't uncommon for me to 2 stock him- something i could never do on wifi. I have videos on my channel to prove this, and that's why I quit. I agree with last part you said though.







anyways point of all of this, in the guide I make it clear wall of pain is harder to perform and even next to impossible to perform on good (meaning top) level players. I am not changing this.
 
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#94
i wrote a huge rant...then...deleted it. I'm tired of getting ignorant repetitive nonsense as responses. If your opponent responds with "lol" its really not worth arguing with them, because they'll continue to write troll responses. *sigh* i definitely know the most about this character on this board AT LEAST, so the "you don't know what your talking about" is a hard blow.
 

*JuriHan*

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#95
then start placing with her offline like Jigglymaster instead of ****** garbage online. You said you're holding your own smashfest, send me replays of you doing the things you say Jigglypuff can do offline and then I'll gladly shut up + upload them.
 
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#96
i win MM's all the time and wall of pain ppl like crazy..theres just no footage of me offline minus the one vs ally where the venue had rap music blasting in our ears and we both kept suiciding lol.
If i went 80% high tier then sure, i'd place higher like puffster, but i want to do just as well going ALL jigglypuff unlike most people. I'll try to get recording setups at my tourney if i can.
 

*JuriHan*

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#97
ok, well good luck. And invest in a sd card so you can hack and turn infinite replays on because its hard getting good replays under 3 mins. I can give you the codes for that easily if you get a SD card.
 

ItoI6

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#98
Hey...how do you get these codes? I'm really interested because although I have an SD card I thought you had to do some complicated thing with a usb port to get the codes onto it.
 

*JuriHan*

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Hey...how do you get these codes? I'm really interested because although I have an SD card I thought you had to do some complicated thing with a usb port to get the codes onto it.
you can have someone just send you the code files and copy pasta them onto the sd card after installing home-

well

i heard im not suppose to mention these things
even though this **** website has a subforum dedicated to hacking, such hypocrisy!

so i will say

check out

smash work shop forums, they can help you
 
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Yeah, for legal issues, we're not allowed to have posts that tell you how to mod your Wii. Discussing the modification of the game does not have the same legal consequences, unless people are selling their project for profit.

You'll have to google it - the work shop isn't allowed to tell you either.
 

*JuriHan*

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so I changed title. The guide is pretty much done, i think i need to update some recreational links like the jigglypuff anime episodes because they got pulled down from youtube for copyright/dead links. Nothing imporant. Overall I don't see anything missing here. If something is discovered about puff or you feel I missed something let me know and I will update asap. When we agree on Jigglypuff's MU ratios I'll have a section listing them and linking the MU summary.
 

-LzR-

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So any Jigglypuff players want to start some stuff about Jigglypuff? Like sharing stuff or discussing her stages. I really don't know about her stages. I have the feeling that she is pretty versatile and does well on many stages, but I could be wrong. Yeah, why don't we start a stage discussion thread? I could run it. I won't just suddenly stop even before we reach smashville. What do you guys think? Don't let the puffs die!
 

Noobicidal

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So any Jigglypuff players want to start some stuff about Jigglypuff? Like sharing stuff or discussing her stages. I really don't know about her stages. I have the feeling that she is pretty versatile and does well on many stages, but I could be wrong. Yeah, why don't we start a stage discussion thread? I could run it. I won't just suddenly stop even before we reach smashville. What do you guys think? Don't let the puffs die!
If you want to start a stage discussion thread, don't let me stop you. I'll just give fair warning and say that it WILL die, sadly enough. We managed to get seven "weeks" of discussion last time.

Here's the old thread if you want a reference.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239430
 

-LzR-

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Well I am willing to do this as much as possible, one reason is that I am hungry for knowledge about Jigglypuff's stages myself. I guess I start this later today if I have time. Wish me luck and support me, maybe we can achieve something.
 
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ItoI6

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I got some jiggz input for you guys.

FH Dairs are extremely safe on shield and as an approach because even if they shield it all she just floats away. Try bair or fair as you're floating away for more damage and shield pressure.

totally legit shield breaker combo is FH dair-> falling bair-> grounded pound itll do like 70-80% to a shield and if they try to spotdodge the pound itll last too long and they still get hit. If they have no quick GTFO move like Shuttle Loop and their shield is slightly weakened it has some actual use.

uairs at between 0-30% combo into utilt on a grounded foe which is a good follow up to an aerial.

rollout is only good for mindgames in returning to the ledge. dont use it as an attack unless youve been using it ledge canceled for the past few times and want to mix it up or something.

drill rest is only good for people who dont know the matchup at all and if u say its a true combo if they trip ima smack you. In order to rest them they have to trip which is only a 10% chance AND you have to be relatively close. If they don't trip they punish you for being too **** close. dair to grab is still pretty good though but only if they either dont know what they're doing or dont have a GTFO move.

staling fair is perfectly fine at the begining of a stock and even near the end if you're confident in you're ability to get a grab. 1 grab near the end of a stock (110%-160%) can unstale about half of your last 10 moves because of 4 pummels+throw. Fair is just a nair with much better range and power that comes out 2 frames slower. Seriously dont be afraid to use it.

Character specific:

MK: FH dairs seems to be the only thing safe against him. It'll beat nado because it hits the top of it and SL loses priority on the way up and loses to the drill. If you space bairs he'll just run into you, shield and OoS SL. FH dairs move too fluidly to be caught in a Oos SL because you move over him and can go in any direction. Im not saying to never space bairs just that FH dairs are safer. Also the move seems designed perfectly to just barely hit his hurtbox out of a FH, its really an amazing option against him. 65-35 MK advanage

Snake: FH dairs are ineffective to his nades. I space bairs and fairs just before i hit the ground to poke the lower half his body and not set off nades. If you grab him and hes holding a nade uthrow to avoid setting it off. Hes extremely difficult to kill, you have almost no safe options against his shield and he kills you way too early, tougher than mk IMO. 70-30 Snake advantage

Diddy: I would call this near even if it werent for his peanuts and bannanas forcing you to approach at such an awkward angle. You can use his bannanas to great effect with several psuedo combos its just those peanuts man...If you can airdodge through and get in his zone this matchup isnt bad at all but his peanuts really make it tough. Way easier for diddy because he forces us to approach through all of his crap.
60-40 Diddy advantage

Falco: In the same boat at as Diddy really. If you can get in his zone he isnt too bad. But what makes him so much harder is that he can easily phantam to safety and he has crazy good aerials that easily beats jiggz any day. Pound is what makes it manageable as you can beat everything hes got with it but if he succefully baits it he just phantasms to safety and you have to go through his lazer camp again. jiggz one advantage is that she destroys his recovery with a sourspot nair 65-35 Falco advantage

Wario: Suffers from the same problem as jiggz in that his range is very lacking, unfortunately he solidly beats jiggz in kill power and survivability. Pound is the end all counter to everything he has, it even beats his bite headon, it allows us to compete and maybe even beat him in the air. Dair isnt effective as he SDIs anything easily, in terms of other aeriels nair is pretty quick and fair deals some good damage. Warios gimicks like offstage farts and super armor fsmashes, jiggz really shouldnt fall into and has a decent chance against him. 60-40 Wario advantage
 

*JuriHan*

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Character match ups are missing
because we aren't done with all of them, and honestly so very little people play puff, let alone top players most of the information isn't even perfect/ hard to accurately obtain concerning the mus. I honestly think people know more about her on wifi than offline because she is so bad offline =/ We have a seperate topic on mus if you wish to see, do you want me to provide a link in my guide?
 

-LzR-

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I think Puff sucks on wifi, her aerials are much harder to use for me and I can't rest! It's horrible to not being able to rest.

Also, it's true that pretty much none of the matchups are correct. No one plays Jigglypuff at a high level and reps her. There aren't great players like M2K or DEHF to know the MU stuff and nobody knows the MU against Puff that well.
 

A2ZOMG

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Most of the data on Jiggs is totally misleading. Especially on D-air.

I'm too lazy to correct everything, but D-air in specific is definitely wrong and extremely misleading.

It consists of four repeating hitbubbles all which do 2 damage and have a growth rate of 100. The first two have a base knockback of 20 and hit grounded opponents at an angle of 270, same as Snake's F-tilt and Samus's U-tilt basically which also meteor Smash grounded opponents. This is why D-air can cause trips on grounded opponents. Also as long as you aren't inducing tumble on your opponent, you get really legit hitstun from D-air at certain percents.

The last two repeating hitbubbles have a base of 10 and hit at a 30 degree angle but only on aerial opponents. They occupy the same location as the other two hitbubbles.

LOL NOOBICIDAL TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN'T GIMP GANON WITH THIS MOVE. I told you that **** semispikes.
 

*JuriHan*

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Most of the data on Jiggs is totally misleading. Especially on D-air.

I'm too lazy to correct everything, but D-air in specific is definitely wrong and extremely misleading.

It consists of four repeating hitbubbles all which do 2 damage and have a growth rate of 100. The first two have a base knockback of 20 and hit grounded opponents at an angle of 270, same as Snake's F-tilt and Samus's U-tilt basically which also meteor Smash grounded opponents. This is why D-air can cause trips on grounded opponents. Also as long as you aren't inducing tumble on your opponent, you get really legit hitstun from D-air at certain percents.

The last two repeating hitbubbles have a base of 10 and hit at a 30 degree angle but only on aerial opponents. They occupy the same location as the other two hitbubbles.

LOL NOOBICIDAL TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN'T GIMP GANON WITH THIS MOVE. I told you that **** semispikes.
you mean the frame data or the description. Alex did the framedata i just copy pasta'd it. Yes you are right at certain percentages you can do d-air to f-smash and ****. It's just i dont know the exact ones so i didnt mention it. I dont have time to test but if you do be my guest. Be my guest,Put our service to the test
Tie your napkin 'round your neck, cherie
And we provide the rest
Soup du jour
Hot hors d'oeuvres
Why, we only live to serve
Try the grey stuff
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You don't believe me? Ask the dishes

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Go on, unfold your menu
Take a glance and then you'll
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Lumiere and Chorus:
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Lumiere:
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And you're scared
But the banquet's all prepared
No one's gloomy or complaining
While the flatware's entertaining
We tell jokes
I do tricks
With my fellow candlesticks

Chorus:
And it's all in perfect taste
That you can bet
Come on and lift your glass
You've won your own free pass
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Lumiere:
If you're stressed
It's fine dining we suggest!

Lumiere and Chorus:
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Lumiere:
Life is so unnerving
For a servant who's not serving
He's not whole without a soul to wait upon
Ah, those good old days when we were useful
Suddenly those good old days are gone
Ten years we've been rusting
Needing so much more than dusting
Needing exercise, a chance to use our skills
Most days we just lay around the castle
Flabby, fat and lazy
You walked in and oops-a-daisy!

Mrs Potts:
It's a guest!
It's a guest!
Sakes alive, well I'll be blessed!
Wine's been poured and thank the Lord
I've had the napkins freshly pressed
With dessert
She'll want tea
And my dear that's fine with me
While the cups do their soft-shoein'
I'll be bubbling, I'll be brewing
I'll get warm
Piping hot
Heaven's sakes! Is that a spot?
Clean it up! We want the company impressed

Chorus:
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Mrs Potts:
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For you, our guest!

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Be our guest
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With your meal
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Yes, indeed, we aim to please
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Let us help you
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Course by course
One by one
'Til you shout, "Enough! I'm done!"
Then we'll sing you off to sleep as you digest
Tonight you'll prop your feet up
But for now, let's eat up
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A2ZOMG

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Just the description in general. I looked over D-air really quickly and the fact it failed to mention its different hit properties on grounded and aerial opponents appalled me.
 

*JuriHan*

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Just the description in general. I looked over D-air really quickly and the fact it failed to mention its different hit properties on grounded and aerial opponents appalled me.
welp crying about it wont solve anything. Write something constructive for it and i'll copy pasta it.
 
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