The *NEW* and *IMPROVED* move ranking list

[Browny]

ZSS dsmash still shouldnt hit you that often. provided im playing a character which doesnt rely on ground approaches (DDD, snake etc) I have no trouble avoiding the dsmash, and more often than not its quite punishable. No matter how hard you try, you will always get hit by an MK dsmash. Its still good but i cant imagine it being better thank MK or G&W. any move that KOs in 4 frames or at 90-110% on the entire cast deserves top spots

 

[Samuelson]

Sheik and MK for Ftilt spots. The reasons should be obvious.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Lucario's pummel potentially can do 1.5%+ per pop at the cap, and at the same time pops in like 9 pops a second. That's a TON of damage.

This is almost true. Lucario can work in about 3.5 to 4 attacks per second, and with Aura capped he does do about 1.5% per hit (maybe even ever so slightly higher, since his pummel is kind of wonky). This gives him a maximum pummel rate of around 6% per hit, and that's pretty darn good.

HOWEVER...
Lucas does 3% per hit on a pummel and he can attack THREE TIMES PER SECOND. He does 9% PER SECOND. He wins.

Also, Olimar's Blue Bthrow is stronger than Ness's Bthrow, just so you know (and thus is probably #1 in that case)

It does more damage, but Ness kills earlier. I guess I'd call it a toss-up between them. Dedede definitely for third though

Basically, getting hit by ZSS's dsmash means a world of pain for many characters in this game, beyond just a KO or an edgeguard.

The key phrase here is "getting hit". I'm not denying the amazing applications of the ZSS down-smash, but... it's not exactly easy to hit with. Once it does, yeah you can punish crazy hard, but it's pretty easy to avoid (in my experience).
I'd still say MK and GW have much more efficient smashes overall.

Other things...

Down Special
Pikachu can has Thunder, please?

Pivot Grab
Olimar has the best, just barely beating out Yoshi. (sorry Yoshi mains, but Pikmin are just toooo good)

 

[Mmac]

I think Yoshi has a pretty good Jab. It's pretty much equal to or better than Peach's

Yoshi's Uair is also very good. Fast, Lagless, Powerful, and can actually punish most Airdodging. For Bair, I think Diddy/ROB's Bair and Kirby's/Yoshi's should swap places. I think their Bair's are slightly better and more practical to use. Yoshi's Dair is also good. It can Lock, Gimp, and Combo into an Nair/Uair.

Yoshi's Dash grab is not the best, but it comes out very fast, and is one of the longest grabs in the game. I think Yoshi's Pivots beat out Olimar though, I feel the extra height really helps dealing with aerial approaches compared to Olimar. Plus it's really no different than a standing grab except they go slightly longer. They even have the same "Running speed"

They're just my opinions though.

 

[Browny]

Sonic uthrow higher
Ness bthrow has to be #1
diddys bair can gtfo top 10
Sonics pummels higher (2nd highest DPS behind lucas im quite sure of that, excepting an olimar with a white)

 

[Kitamerby]

This is almost true. Lucario can work in about 3.5 to 4 attacks per second, and with Aura capped he does do about 1.5% per hit (maybe even ever so slightly higher, since his pummel is kind of wonky). This gives him a maximum pummel rate of around 6% per hit, and that's pretty darn good.

HOWEVER...
Lucas does 3% per hit on a pummel and he can attack THREE TIMES PER SECOND. He does 9% PER SECOND. He wins.

Three times? You sure about that? Last I checked Lucas could only do one per second, like the other 3% pummels. That old grab thread's pummel information was wrong, you know.

 

[Afropony]

Pit's Utilt comes out in 2 frames, can hit 16% and can lead into another attack.
neautral B should be:
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight
3. Falco
4. Pit
5. Rob
6.Lucario
IMO.
Pit's Fthrow can chaingrab the heavy characters and fastfallers upto 40%
Pit's Bair is his most reliable kill move and around 8-10 in the llist.
Also although Pit's Fsmash got a lot of critiscism in the old thread I believe it deserves to be in the top 5 at least.

 

[Backward]

i see that you didnt put pit as #1 lol. but why is MK fsmash rated 3rd in the game? its so slow, not really worth the knockback. probably not even on the first 10

It has quite a lot of shield stun and very little cooldown lag, making it a safe move on block. It's rather good when used defensively.

Marth does not belong to the top-ten F-Smash. It's an absurdly punishable move on block with little to no shield stun.

Also, Pikachu D-Smash. It might have a place in the top ten, but at most one of the last contenders. Too easily DI-ed out of.

Ness D-Air cannot possibly be that high considering how slow it comes out and its lack of usefulness overall.

Falco has an excellent B-Air.

Ness and Sheik Side-B are mediocre at best. You've left out Falco Side-B considering the flexibility it gives him onstage.

MK does not have the best Up-B. The angle it send you can be DI-ed so that you avoid getting gimped by it. The knockback growth of this move is also significantly lower than other moves. It's definitely top material, but not the best. Conversely, DK Up-B is beastly when grounded, as is Bowser Up-B Oos.

And finally.

Olimar Neutral B. I hear it's pretty useful.

 

[Browny]

you cant DI the angle shuttle loop sends you... thats only dependant on which part of the attack hits you. either way, youre going to die if you get hit by a reverse shuttle loop while anywhere near the edge of a stage

 

[Jibbles]

G&W's Down B should be very high up in the top 10 due to Bucket Braking
Worst Bthrow: Marth. No reason to use it.
ZSS and Marth's Uairs should be somewhere in the top 10.

I suppose Marth's Up Smash can be put into the top ten. Can be used out of shield (13 frame start up is pretty fast), does insane damage (18%-22% uncharged, depending on where the opponent is hit), and lastly, great for juggle traps. It can kill at decent percentages too. It has a lag problem, though.

 

[ph00tbag]

The key phrase here is "getting hit". I'm not denying the amazing applications of the ZSS down-smash, but... it's not exactly easy to hit with. Once it does, yeah you can punish crazy hard, but it's pretty easy to avoid (in my experience).
I'd still say MK and GW have much more efficient smashes overall.

Get better at landing it, then.

 

[Ussi]

>_> I've dodged two of MK's down smashes in one spot dodge.

 

[Tenki]

you cant DI the angle shuttle loop sends you... thats only dependant on which part of the attack hits you. either way, youre going to die if you get hit by a reverse shuttle loop while anywhere near the edge of a stage

Yes you can.

I've DI'd an aerial shuttle loop townwards and teched the floor :3

>_> I've dodged two of MK's down smashes in one spot dodge.

what character was that o_O;

 

[Ussi]

Well how long doe it take for MK's dsmash to end? Maybe I imagined it or maybe some frame prefect situation happened.

 

[LosKnoggos]

where is the big diffference between Kirbys and Jiglypuff fsmash?

 

[PKNintendo]

Um why is Olimar's ahead of Ness? It KO's early, but not as fast as Ness'.
I suggest adding Ness nair in the top ten list. And put ness uair on number 5-6. It's similar to Wario's in terms of KO power. (10% weaker)

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Well, atleast youre more willing to change than the old guy, and you dont have the spaces filled in.

And DKs bair is the 2nd best btw, it's DDDs bair but with more reach and priority

 

[DanGR]

Olimar's upair should be either first or second.

It goes through pretty much everything- including the thick part of Smashville. It combos well and deals incredible damage- reds deal 24%!, purples and blues do 22% and yellows 16, but have more hitstun which makes comboing easier and more deadly. (yes he has true combos) Also, it beats the key.

 

[Snowstalker]

Isn't CF's jab supposed to be great?

 

[IKOU]

where is the big diffference between Kirbys and Jiglypuff fsmash?

Kirby's is faster

And also, MK has the best neutral special, not Snake

 

[brinboy789]

dash = 3rd for diddy
ganon dtilt shouldnt be 4rth...not even on the list maybe, its not that great
pit should be on fsmash, not #1 though lol
IMO snake should be on nair, not sure which placement though
yoshi#1 for pivot grab
are peach and yoshis dthrow that good? o.o...squirtles dthrow should be on, kills @ like 140
thats all i got

 

[c0nd0r]

Now the old one ended... Very strangely... >_>
So let's start fresh, basically this list will be a 1-10 ranking of each type of move. Now I don't know that much about all the characters so I am going to save myself from the embarrassment of posting all wrong lists, and leave them blank for now. But with your help I can fill them in.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jab
1. Ike
2. Snake
3. Lucario
4. Pit
5. Falco
6. Luigi
7.
8.
9. Peach
10.
Worst.zelda

Dash
1. Snake
2. Ganondorf
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.luigi

Ftilt
1. Snake
2. Shiek
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8. Ike
9.
10.
Worst.jiggz

Dtilt
1. Meta Knight
2. Game and Watch ( Where is DKs? Its almost EXACTLY like MKs except he doesn't move forward, should be second or third to marths)
3. Marth
4. Ganondorf
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst. Mario

Utilt
1. Snake
2.Fox
3.D3
4.
5. Peach
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst. Ganondorf

Fsmash
Okay... NO?
Why is G&W SO HIGH?
Where is PIT? Its second or third
Luigi's is NOT that high
Lucarios is 4th at least, DK should be below all those +wolf
Kirby's is good, put it is the only one punishable on shield NO MATTER HOW YOU SPACCE IT!
probably 5th if you ask me.


1. Kirby
2. Game and Watch
3. Wario
4. Lucas
5. Luigi
6. Donkey Kong
7. Lucario
8.
9.
10. Marth
Worst.squirtle or ZSS

Dsmash
Good, pikachu should be about 9 or ten tho, switch ROB with G&W
Replace Zelda with wolf, since its almost as fast, cant really be punished, and kills WAY sooner)
1. Meta Knight
2. Game and Watch
3. Zero Suit Samus
4. ROB
5. Zelda
6. Pikachu
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.jiggs

Usmash
Bump zelda for olimar becaause Usmash can be DID and olimars kills at like 90, and put snake above fox MAYBE
Ganon needs to GTFO, its very slow to comeout and lagerific for not too much power...)
Ike needs to go down and ptu DK at No. 10 for NOw)
1. Fox
2. Snake
3. Zelda
4.
5. Ike
6.
7.
8. Ganondorf
9. Peach
10.
Worst.samus

Nair
(please... Luigis kills tenpercent earlier than MKs but MKs can combo, does 19 damage if it hits, HAS WAY MORE RANGE SLASH PRIORITY
Robs should go higher too BTW, as its an amazing approach, edegaurding technique, has more priority than any other nair, and kills the earliest too+ punishes spotdodges)
1. Luigi
2. Meta Knight
3. ROB
4.
5.
6. Ike
7. Lucas
8.
9.
10.
Worst.(charizard For sure)

Fair
Looks good, be sure to put up peach, Wolf and MAYBE PIKA, lucario's could go down abit seeing how you CAN"T combo with it if they DI and it only does 4 damage...)
1. Marth
2. Meta Knight
3. Ness
4. Lucario
5.
6. Ike
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.falco

Dair
(stop overrateing spikes! Ness needs to be in... about 10 I'd say while peach and wario should BOTH be above ganon. put Fox after ganon, and probably falco, too)
1. Meta Knight
2. Lucario
3. Ganondorf
4. Ness
5. Peach
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.sheik

Uair
(lololol
MK is definitely #1 followed by Oli ganon needs to move down to like 8...sonic Probably needs to GTFO, or at least take 10. D3's should probably be around 6, too
1. Ganondorf
2.
3. Meta Knight
4. Wario
5.
6. Sonic
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.zard

Bair
(not bad, just swap diddy with rob and switch diddy for luigi... AND DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT PUTTING NESS ON!
Conisider marth, Ike, Mario, Falco, and Jigglypuff for last too spots (in no particular order))
1. Game and Watch
2. King Dedede
3. Donkey Kong
4. Wolf
5. ROB
6. Diddy Kong
7. Kirby
8. Yoshi
9.
10.
Worst.(pikachu probably, maybe Boozer)
(please fix this we JUST had a debate about this on

Spoiler

Mine

the other one
I originally put snakes as better, but MK wins if anyone EVER fullhops the tornado can regularly get you like 30 free damage since the opponents cant do **** to get out of it. Snakes dont really outspam anyone and... yeah(just not in the actual matchup)

Swap rob and falco, add pit probably right after...then DK and wario. dont forget wolf either.
)
Neutral Special
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight
3. ROB
4. Lucario
5. Falco
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst. Lucas/Ganondorf(ganons is good for shield break therefore lucas)

Forward/Side/Over Special
(should be
1. marth
2.olimar
3.ZSS
4.mario
5.zard
6.ganon
7.jiggs
8. bowser
9. lucas
10. Zelda or wario or sonic

ALOT MORE PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH THIS^^
)
1. Marth
2. Charizard
3. Ganondorf
4. Zelda
5. Zero Suit Samus
6. Olimar
7. Ness
8. Mario
9. Shiek
10. Bowser
Worst.

Down Special


(sonic down, wario and wolf into 3rd and forth with pikachu in second ZSS deserves a mention too, as do DK and ICs )
1. Diddy Kong
2.
3.
4.
5. ROB
6. Sonic
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.D3

Up Special
( wow... very good, just a few minor probs. pit needs on (yes I know what you'll say, but its actually pretty good)
Yoshi needs to GTFO and make room for Samus and/or DK and more importantly Boozer I suggest squeezing out mario but keeping luigi))
)
1. Meta Knight
2. Pikachu
3. ROB
4. Marth
5. Ice Climbers
6. Game and Watch
7. Sonic
8. Mario
9. Luigi
10. Yoshi
Worst. Jigglypuff

Standing Grab (Actual grab, not the throw)
good put squirtle next
1. Olimar
2. Charizard
3. King Dedede
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.ICs

Dash Grab (Actual grab, not the throw)
1. Ness
2. Meta Knight
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.(bowser)

Pivot Grab
1.oli
2.D3
3.lYoshi
4.Lucas
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Fthrow

LOL get rid of Ike, no perm walls cept for Corneria, MAYBE top ten
kirbz undisputably first, go ahead, put ness on this too

Pits a a changgrab on floaties and gives him GREAT positioning pit for 5th)
1. Donkey Kong
2. Pikachu
3. Ganondorf
4.
5. Ike
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.

Dthrow
Put oli on before sonic peac and yoshi, pikachu deserves a spot, and mario and Luigi probably do further down
1. King Dedede
2. Falco
3. Game and Watch
4. Snake
5. Sonic
6. Peach
7. Yoshi
8.
9.
10.
Worst.

Uthrow
Olimar undiputable first, nothing comes anywhere as close.
MK for second, sonci for third.
1.
2. Olimar
3.
4.
5.
6. Sonic
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.
(ness, d3 oli, since Olis depends on having the right pikmin
Bthrow
1. Olimar
2. Ness
3. King Dedede
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst.

Pummel
once agian ur assuming white for Oli and Cap for lucario
put marios and luigi's in 4th and fith, they do 6 DPS
1. Lucas
2. Olimar
3. Lucario
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Worst. Samus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please tell me your thoughts on what move should be where and I will edit if your arguement is good enough. So please don't say something like "Sonic's Fair is awesome, it should be 1st" (Just an example) you have to give a reason why.

Also please note that techniques like MK's IDC are not counted, towards the score of the move.

I riddled it with holes/commentz

 

[demodemo]

what

dins fire and chain does not deserve to be on the side b list

dins maybe.. has to be lower though

drillrush? last time i checked its like impossible to gimp that move and it can recover from ****ing everywhere

 

[c0nd0r]

what

dins fire and chain does not deserve to be on the side b list

dins maybe.. has to be lower though

drillrush? last time i checked its like impossible to gimp that move and it can recover from ****ing everywhere

yeah it was on The

Spoiler

(MY)

old list for a while...

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

Forward/Side/Over Special
(should be
1. marth
2.olimar
3.ZSS
4.mario
5.zard
6.ganon
7.jiggs
8. bowser
9. lucas
10. Zelda or wario or sonic

ALOT MORE PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH THIS^^

Ness PK Fire > Lucas PK Fire
Trust me on this.


I'm almost finished updating the list now, expect the updated list in around 10 minutes.

 

[kr3wman]

Isn't CF's jab supposed to be great?

Great compared to the rest of his moves.

his being the important word here.

j/k j/k

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

Alright, list updated.

 

[Barge]

Toon Link should be added to the Bair, it strings well, almost inescapable for the first 2-3 hits.

Ivysaur should be added to the dash attack, it can kill at ~100%

 

[c0nd0r]

Ness PK Fire > Lucas PK Fire
Trust me on this.


I'm almost finished updating the list now, expect the updated list in around 10 minutes.

How is ness's better exactly? lucas's works wonders bsticked, and allows *gasp*PK JUMP.

Ness's is WAY laggier, hard to followup, and travels slower and less distance

 

[Barge]

How is ness's better exactly? lucas's works wonders bsticked, and allows *gasp*PK JUMP.

Ness's is WAY laggier, hard to followup, and travels slower and less distance

Lucas' is good, but ness' is better. It can be strung together, lead into kills (grabbing). Which lucas' can't do. Ness' does more damage too.

 

[c0nd0r]

Lucas' is good, but ness' is better. It can be strung together, lead into kills (grabbing). Which lucas' can't do. Ness' does more damage too.

...if your opponent can't sheild or DI for ****.
Check with EB360, he ranks lucas's higher, and he is one of the most if not the most knoledgeable lucas/ness main...

And why the **** is DK's fthrow still above kirby's? only an idiot will tell you otherwise...

oh and where is falcon's uair? its better than Gdorfs....

also, why is G&w's usmash not on the list? its at least as good as ikes...
and Robs dsmash is probably second best in the game...

and for ftilt, add d3 or rob or MK next...(in that order IMO)

 

[DanGR]

Who told you that Yoshi's pivotgrab was better than Olimar's?

That's hilarious.

 

[c0nd0r]

Who told you that Yoshi's pivotgrab was better than Olimar's?

That's hilarious.

Yeah, Inoright?Imean,whatexactlydoesithave?olimarsgoeslike3Xfarther...

 

[cj.Shark]

uh oh fanboys

DownB->
1.Zelda
2.Fox
3.Falco
4.Jigglypuff
5. Peach

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

lucas's works wonders bsticked, and allows *gasp*PK JUMP.

Also please note that techniques like MK's IDC are not counted, towards the score of the move.

How is ness's better exactly?
Ness's is WAY laggier, hard to followup, and travels slower and less distance

Ness can chain heaps of PK Fires to get at least 30% on them, even with DI. Also it's easy to follow with a grab or Fsmash.

DownB->
1.Zelda
2.Fox
3.Falco
4.Jigglypuff
5. Peach

Transformations such as that of Zelda and PT are not counted.

 

[c0nd0r]

Ness can chain heaps of PK Fires to get at least 30% on them, even with DI. Also it's easy to follow with a grab or Fsmash.

So your list doesn't include ATs

Seriously?

Mk's wasn't included in my list because Becasue it was BANNED which made it so that it was one of the worse Without IDC nut the best WITH it. not because it looks funny if you do it. Pk fire is Easy to DI out of for most characters, and it almost NEVER leads to a follow up unless your opponent is DeDeDe.

Ness needs to make room for D3 as well...

 

[Gishnak]

Falco and Gdub's dair didn't make this list? O.o

 

[c0nd0r]

Falco and Gdub's dair didn't make this list? O.o

yeah, srsly, what the **** is up with that?
Foxes NEEDS to be on too.

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

NO ONE SUGGESTED THEM

Why is everyone getting mad at me? >_>

And Condor don't get all complainy about it now, you never said anything about it in your "corrections"

 

[laki]

Jab
1. Ike
2. Snake
3. Falco
4. Falcon
5. Sonic
6. Lucario
7.Luigi
8. Peach
9. Zss
10.Squirtle
Worst.

Dash
1. Snake
2. Metaknight
3. Diddy Kong
4. Kirby
5. Ivy
6. Ganon
7. Sheik
8. Zss
9. Ike
10. Zelda
Worst.

Ftilt
1. Snake
2. Metaknight
3. DDD
4. Rob
5. Dk
6. Shiek
7. Falco
8. Marth
9. Ike
10. Zss
Worst.

Dtilt
1. Meta Knight
2. Marth
3. Game and Watch
4. Donkey Kong
5. Rob
6. DDD
7. Sonic
8. Zss
9. Zelda
10. Ganondorf
Worst. Mario

Utilt
1. Snake
2. Fox
3. King Dedede
4. Kirby
5. Peach
6. Pit
7. Zss
8. Marth
9. Falco
10.
Worst. Ganondorf

Fsmash
1. Wolf
2. Lucario
3. Kirby
4. Wario
5. Luigi
6. Game and Watch
7. Pit
8. Snake
9. Metaknight
10. Diddy
Worst.

Dsmash
1. Meta Knight
2. Zero Suit Samus
3. Wolf
4. ROB
5. Game and Watch
6. Dk
7. Zelda
8. Marth
9. Pikachu
10. Snake
Worst. Jigglypuff

Usmash (in no particular order, It's beyond me after one and two)
1. Fox
2. Snake
3. Olimar
4. Zelda
5. Ike
6. Falco
7. Game and Watch
8. Peach
9. Donkey Kong
10. Marth
Worst. Charizard

Nair
1. Luigi
2. Meta Knight
3. Snake
4. ROB
5. Game and Watch
6. Marth
7. Ike
8. Lucas
9. Falco
10. Peach
Worst.

Thats what I think on the matter. I will be honest though and say that even though I believe they are the top ten, After #5, the lists get messy.

I guess I'll finish it later.