~ The most even match-up's ~

[Brinzy]

If it's not about dittos then it isn't about anything. They DEFINE an even matchup. No other matchup can even be close to even (other than with large amounts of guesswork) because characters are so different. There may be a similar win probability among the two, but it still isn't "even".

Yay, let's argue semantics and try to justify something that ANYONE could figure out!

 

[Napilopez]

Mario Sonic? MK Snake? IDK...

And did someone really just say Sonic Snake?

Yea, sound ridiculous doesn't it? But Sonic is one of the few characters that can quite easily get through snakes defenses. Consider that Sonic can destroy nikita with just an SDR, can beat snake in the air, can deal with snakes nade's better than most chars unless used as a grenade counter, can use like all of his aerials to break through mortar, is so quick he's probably the hardest char to hit with a C4, and things start to look more even.

Add to this that that even if Sonic doesn't have many quick attacks, he actually has a pretty top notch grab game that can be used to punish the lag on snakes moves. Although snake's ftilt and utilt come out very quickly and have ridiculous range, they have enough ending lag that Sonic can quite easily shield cancel a run and slide in for the grab. From here his followups against snake are quite good. Dthrow techchasese are too awesome, Sonic can chain bthrows together, Uthrow puts snake in the air where he's at a disadvantage.

If snake gets launches offstage, and Sonic is alll the way at the other end of FD, Sonic is actually quick enough that he can reach snake before he even gets off of his cypher, and gimp Snake easily. He travels the entirety of FD in less than 60 frames, less than a second. And cypher is really slow. And its rare Sonic will even be that far anyways. So yea, Sonic can get to snake easily and gimp hm from cypher easily.

Heck, even if snake stickies a C4 on Sonic, unless snake uses it immediately, Sonic is quick enough that he could likely stick it back on snake before its even used.

Sonic can has cancellable approaches, and snakes large hurbox makes him an easy target for Aerial Spin Charge combos, and even basic SideB and DownB combos. Snake's heavy weight make tilt strings easy as well. Sonic can pressure his shield quite easily thanks to ASC and several other moves. He can then poke through his shield with tilts, usmash, fair. Unlike other chars, Sonic should have absolutely no problem approaching Snake, thanks to cancels, and more than anything, his speed.

Snake on the other hand, is just his top tier snakey self. Somehow he's the 3rd heaviest char in the game if I'm not mistaken, And the range on several of his moves is ludicrous, he ouranges Sonic in most instances on the ground. He can kill Sonic earlier than Sonic can do so, using utilt ftilt and well, what the heck, all of his moves kill haha. And well snake is just snake, do I have to explain that much more?

So to summarize: Sonic can deal with Snake's explosives better than probably any other char, and he can rack up damage quite easily on snake. He can get around snakes defenses well, and is better in the air, and can gimp sanke pretty easily.

Snake is heavier, more powerful and has more range. Three basic factors that have a strong impact. overall, I believe it balances out very evenly.

Just for reference, check out this vid. One match against one snake doesn't prove much, but it will give you a good sense of why I think Sonic vs Snake is extremely even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzdRrh66lco&feature=related

 

[Deoxys]

The most even match I can think of is Yoshi vs MK... that's because I only really see matches with Mk in them, lol.

 

[Pikaville]

Game and watch vs DDD is too true.

 

[Tenki]

vs

It's a pretty even matchup.

In seriousness, I kinda felt like Fox v Sonic was kinda even in actual gameplay - both of them are pretty heavy bait-punish characters.

 

[Veggi]

How the heck is this cool to know? Give me on reason why knowing the most "even" matchups is interesting or useful.

Maybe someone wants to have an even match-up that isn't a ditto, is that hard to believe?

If it's not about dittos then it isn't about anything. They DEFINE an even matchup. No other matchup can even be close to even (other than with large amounts of guesswork) because characters are so different. There may be a similar win probability among the two, but it still isn't "even".

This thread was made because people don't want to play dittos. Matches where each player has a different set of moves are the most exciting. Obviously, the TC knows that dittos are the most even because he ruled against saying them in the OP. Also note that the word "most" is used in the thread title.

 

[Tien2500]

Yea, sound ridiculous doesn't it? But Sonic is one of the few characters that can quite easily get through snakes defenses. Consider that Sonic can destroy nikita with just an SDR, can beat snake in the air, can deal with snakes nade's better than most chars unless used as a grenade counter, can use like all of his aerials to break through mortar, is so quick he's probably the hardest char to hit with a C4, and things start to look more even.

Add to this that that even if Sonic doesn't have many quick attacks, he actually has a pretty top notch grab game that can be used to punish the lag on snakes moves. Although snake's ftilt and utilt come out very quickly and have ridiculous range, they have enough ending lag that Sonic can quite easily shield cancel a run and slide in for the grab. From here his followups against snake are quite good. Dthrow techchasese are too awesome, Sonic can chain bthrows together, Uthrow puts snake in the air where he's at a disadvantage.

If snake gets launches offstage, and Sonic is alll the way at the other end of FD, Sonic is actually quick enough that he can reach snake before he even gets off of his cypher, and gimp Snake easily. He travels the entirety of FD in less than 60 frames, less than a second. And cypher is really slow. And its rare Sonic will even be that far anyways. So yea, Sonic can get to snake easily and gimp hm from cypher easily.

Heck, even if snake stickies a C4 on Sonic, unless snake uses it immediately, Sonic is quick enough that he could likely stick it back on snake before its even used.

Sonic can has cancellable approaches, and snakes large hurbox makes him an easy target for Aerial Spin Charge combos, and even basic SideB and DownB combos. Snake's heavy weight make tilt strings easy as well. Sonic can pressure his shield quite easily thanks to ASC and several other moves. He can then poke through his shield with tilts, usmash, fair. Unlike other chars, Sonic should have absolutely no problem approaching Snake, thanks to cancels, and more than anything, his speed.

Snake on the other hand, is just his top tier snakey self. Somehow he's the 3rd heaviest char in the game if I'm not mistaken, And the range on several of his moves is ludicrous, he ouranges Sonic in most instances on the ground. He can kill Sonic earlier than Sonic can do so, using utilt ftilt and well, what the heck, all of his moves kill haha. And well snake is just snake, do I have to explain that much more?

So to summarize: Sonic can deal with Snake's explosives better than probably any other char, and he can rack up damage quite easily on snake. He can get around snakes defenses well, and is better in the air, and can gimp sanke pretty easily.

Snake is heavier, more powerful and has more range. Three basic factors that have a strong impact. overall, I believe it balances out very evenly.

Just for reference, check out this vid. One match against one snake doesn't prove much, but it will give you a good sense of why I think Sonic vs Snake is extremely even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzdRrh66lco&feature=related

Honestly I think that video shows that Sonic vs Snake is rather uneven. That Snake wasn't playing particularly well. He was sandbagging, and rolled into Sonic's throws and stuff. He also did some kind of silly things like using dtilt in situations where he probably shouldn't have and he should have probably been saving his Utilt for KOs. And he fell for Sonic's Spring-Uair KO *twice* which makes Sonic's trouble KOing seem less important then they are in this matchup. Taking this all into account the Sonic player (who I think was way better) still only barely won. He was an Utilt away from a loss. Sonic vs Snake isn't hopeless for Sonic and he has a lot of tools to deal damage to Snake but the match is still probably 60-40 or so in Snake's favor.

Oh and to anyone who doesn't feel like discussing this just leave. If you don't want to talk about even matchups then you don't have to... It may be pointless but there are people talking about pointless things everywhere so don't let it bother you.

I feel Mario vs Sonic is even. I can't really explain why. Just feels like it though.

 

[Judge Judy]

Sheik vs Mario

They can both combo

They can both gimp

They both have there respectable projectile

and most impotently neither of them holds any large if any advantage in ground, air or off stage combat.

Not so sure about that, Mario has more priority, more reliable gimping options, more KO power, and an Up B that gets him out a lot of sticky situations.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Marth and Ike were agreed to something like 60:40 or 65:35 Marth. If you think 60:40 is moreorless even, then be all means go ahead with it, nobody is stopping you.

No just no

Marth Kills Ike, disgustingly

 

[YagamiLight]

No just no

Marth Kills Ike, disgustingly

6-4 is "killed disgustingly" now?

 

[aeghrur]

Honestly I think that video shows that Sonic vs Snake is rather uneven. That Snake wasn't playing particularly well. He was sandbagging, and rolled into Sonic's throws and stuff. He also did some kind of silly things like using dtilt in situations where he probably shouldn't have and he should have probably been saving his Utilt for KOs. And he fell for Sonic's Spring-Uair KO *twice* which makes Sonic's trouble KOing seem less important then they are in this matchup. Taking this all into account the Sonic player (who I think was way better) still only barely won. He was an Utilt away from a loss. Sonic vs Snake isn't hopeless for Sonic and he has a lot of tools to deal damage to Snake but the match is still probably 60-40 or so in Snake's favor.

Oh and to anyone who doesn't feel like discussing this just leave. If you don't want to talk about even matchups then you don't have to... It may be pointless but there are people talking about pointless things everywhere so don't let it bother you.

I feel Mario vs Sonic is even. I can't really explain why. Just feels like it though.

For some reason, I just KNEW this argument was going to come up. I mean, every single time someone shows a video trying to prove their point about X character against Y character, one person ALWAYS says the Y character sucked... so the X character obviously disadvantaged or something. Nothing against you though. :O
And Mario vs Sonic was 50-50 or 55-45 mario I believe. =/

 

[Napilopez]

Honestly I think that video shows that Sonic vs Snake is rather uneven. That Snake wasn't playing particularly well. He was sandbagging, and rolled into Sonic's throws and stuff. He also did some kind of silly things like using dtilt in situations where he probably shouldn't have and he should have probably been saving his Utilt for KOs. And he fell for Sonic's Spring-Uair KO *twice* which makes Sonic's trouble KOing seem less important then they are in this matchup. Taking this all into account the Sonic player (who I think was way better) still only barely won. He was an Utilt away from a loss. Sonic vs Snake isn't hopeless for Sonic and he has a lot of tools to deal damage to Snake but the match is still probably 60-40 or so in Snake's favor.

Oh and to anyone who doesn't feel like discussing this just leave. If you don't want to talk about even matchups then you don't have to... It may be pointless but there are people talking about pointless things everywhere so don't let it bother you.

I feel Mario vs Sonic is even. I can't really explain why. Just feels like it though.

As I stated in my post, that video simply showcased some of the things I had been describing. That was also just one video anyways, I think several Sonic mains would agree that the matchup is not at all that bad for Sonic, although they may not call it even like me. Also, he mightve only barely won that round, but he still won 3 out of 3 matches... So yea. In fact, the second match he won with on his last stalk with only 52% damage, and the third match he won on his last stalk with 0% damage, so yea. And people even at top level play fall for spring Uair KOs all the time. Even if they DI, Sonic can still chase them and hit em with it... its quick. I also seriously doubt he was sandbagging in later matches because he had already lost the first match of the set. But even all that into account, it doesn't matter the outcome of the match. Had he lost, I still would've posted the video. Simply put, Sonic can punish the small openings a Snake might leave better than most chars, can rack up damage on him very quickly and can gimp him well, while snake can kill Sonic with relative ease, and is very heavy.

I personally find Sonic vs Mario harder for Sonic than Sonic vs Snake, but thats just me. Sonic vs Mario is either even or 55:45 in Mario's favor.

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

Kirby = Falco? It looks more personal, for me kirby has at least 60-40 advantage.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I hope you mean that Wario's good when you say that he's powerful.

Wario is ridiculously very fast and one of weakest characters in the game. I'm not sure many people have picked up on how ******** this is.

 

[Tien2500]

I hope you mean that Wario's good when you say that he's powerful.

Wario is ridiculously very fast and one of weakest characters in the game. I'm not sure many people have picked up on how ******** this is.

I've definitely questioned Wario's aerial speed. It seemed weird at first.

As for Sonic vs Snake I'm not going to give a long reply but I will say that Snake's power advantage+weight advantage skews the matchup to an advantage to Snake.

 

[aeghrur]

Wario has good aerial acceleration, not aerial speed if I remember correctly. It's just that acceleration is more useful for weaving. :O

 

[brinboy789]

I hope you mean that Wario's good when you say that he's powerful.

Wario is ridiculously very fast and one of weakest characters in the game. I'm not sure many people have picked up on how ******** this is.

i hope your kidding when youre saying that warios one of the weakest chars in the game...

 

[Napilopez]

Wario has good aerial acceleration, not aerial speed if I remember correctly. It's just that acceleration is more useful for weaving. :O

He has the best horizontal aerial acceleration, and his horizontal airspeed is the third best in the game.

 

[Shady Penguin]

i hope your kidding when youre saying that warios one of the weakest chars in the game...

He is overall. He'd have a serious KO problem if his Uair and Fsmash were not so great for killing.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

That's like saying Snake would have a bad stage control game without his explosives. Wario has the options, ergo, he can use them.

 

[Kinzer]

No just no

Marth Kills Ike, disgustingly

Even Emblem Lord said it himself to me in my "n00bier" days when I asked him a question in his thread.

"Marth may have an advantage over Ike, but even so it seems that you are walking that extra mile with Ike to claim the victory."

Like I said, if the guy wants to think that 6:4 is not a huge disadvantage, then by all means he can go ahead and say it's an even matchup. No one is holding a gun to his head and calling it out to say that Marth = Ike, if he disagrees, then fine. He is a human being with his own opinion.

 

[Shady Penguin]

That's like saying Snake would have a bad stage control game without his explosives. Wario has the options, ergo, he can use them.

Note that I used the word overall. Most of Wario's attacks are quite weak if you take the time to notice.

Ease of KOing is not directly proportional to overall strength. If that was the case, MK would have a KO problem.

 

[brinboy789]

He is overall. He'd have a serious KO problem if his Uair and Fsmash were not so great for killing.

uhh...where to start...

his fsmash is GODLY. SA frames, comes out extremely fast, kills easily.

uair is amazing, best aerial killing move, very useful

wario waft.....half charged kills from around 50%-80%, full kills around 100.

dsmash isnt worth the lag afterward, but has pretty good knockback.

ftilt is an OK kill move...sorta slow but nice knockback.

thats all i can think of for now. wario's KO power is amazing. he has strength + speed + amazing recovery, his only weakness is his crap range.

 

[Shady Penguin]

uhh...where to start...

his fsmash is GODLY. SA frames, comes out extremely fast, kills easily.

uair is amazing, best aerial killing move, very useful

wario waft.....half charged kills from around 50%-80%, full kills around 100.

dsmash isnt worth the lag afterward, but has pretty good knockback.

ftilt is an OK kill move...sorta slow but nice knockback.

thats all i can think of for now. wario's KO power is amazing. he has strength + speed + amazing recovery, his only weakness is his crap range.

Once again, I never said Wario was bad at KOing. All I'm saying is that he's quite weak overall.

 

[M15t3R E]

Once again, I never said Wario was bad at KOing. All I'm saying is that he's quite weak overall.

Wario is high tier.
He's an excellent character but has poor range so your timing has to be great to be amazing with him.

 

[brinboy789]

Once again, I never said Wario was bad at KOing. All I'm saying is that he's quite weak overall.

how can he be bad at KOing and weak overall? read the wario guide and come back with a new opinion please

 

[Shady Penguin]

how can he be bad at KOing and weak overall? read the wario guide and come back with a new opinion please

Because most of his moves are weak are in comparison to other characters. This ends up not really hurting him since he has a few great moves to fix this for him.

Being strong alone doesn't mean you'll be landing killing blows easily (See Ganondorf). How good you are at KOing is not completly based on how strong you are overall (See MK).

@Mister E: I know that and agree.

 

[brinboy789]

Because most of his moves are weak are in comparison to other characters. This ends up not really hurting him since he has a few great moves to fix this for him.

Being strong alone doesn't mean you'll be landing killing blows easily (See Ganondorf). How good you are at KOing is not completly based on how strong you are overall (See MK).

@Mister E: I know that and agree.

his moves are jacked. hate to break it to ya. and obviously he has more weak moves then strong moves, not everybody is ganon or ike.

and his strong moves are FAST. hella FAST. so, he'll LAND them. AKA NO killing problems?

are we clear? good.

 

[Shady Penguin]

his moves are jacked. hate to break it to ya. and obviously he has more weak moves then strong moves, not everybody is ganon or ike.

and his strong moves are FAST. hella FAST. so, he'll LAND them. AKA NO killing problems?

are we clear? good.

Hmm? In one of my previous posts I said this:

"Once again, I never said Wario was bad at KOing."

My whole point was that most of his moves are weaker than your average character's. I also said multiple times that he doesn't have a KO problem just because of this.

 

[brinboy789]

Hmm? In one of my previous posts I said this:

"Once again, I never said Wario was bad at KOing."

My whole point was that most of his moves are weaker than your average character's. I also said multiple times that he doesn't have a KO problem just because of this.

warios moves are really strong and fast...way stronger then say, mario. his most widely used move, dair, does like 19%, is lightning fast, and virtually no landing lag.

 

[Shady Penguin]

warios moves are really strong and fast...way stronger then say, mario. his most widely used move, dair, does like 19%, is lightning fast, and virtually no landing lag.

Strength usually refers to knockback, and his dair doesn't have good knockback.

 

[brinboy789]

Strength usually refers to knockback, and his dair doesn't have good knockback.

nair uair fsmash wariowaft dsmash and even fgrab kills @...somehwere around 130?

 

[Shady Penguin]

nair uair fsmash wariowaft dsmash and even fgrab kills @...somehwere around 130?

Undepreciated maybe.

It's pretty easy to tell that most of Wario's moves have less knockback than average. Just to make it clear:

I think Wario doesn't have a problem KOing, is a great character, and has a few strong moves.

Hopefully this topic can get back on track now (never thought my small comment would divert the topic).

 

[rehab]

Lol, dair is a shield eating/"string" move, screw killing, that's what fsmash upair ftilt are for. Those are alright kill moves.

You did say he was weak overall. Bringing that up is not being offtopic.

Whatever, Wario for mid tier.

 

[brinboy789]

Undepreciated maybe.

It's pretty easy to tell that most of Wario's moves have less knockback than average. Just to make it clear:

I think Wario doesn't have a problem KOing, is a great character, and has a few strong moves.

Hopefully this topic can get back on track now (never thought my small comment would divert the topic).

i still dont agree with the second sentence, but w/e. it diverted because you stated an incorrect fact and you defended for a whole page >.<

 

[PK-ow!]

For some reason, I just KNEW this argument was going to come up. I mean, every single time someone shows a video trying to prove their point about X character against Y character, one person ALWAYS says the Y character sucked...

Let's assume for the moment that Y is in fact better than X (in that matchup).

This fact would cause Y to actually beat X. That fact would cause the reigning consensus to be "that Y beats X." And that fact would cause people to doubt, on any occasion where someone claims X beats Y, that it was an admissible test scenario (i.e., that the alleged tokening of the matchup was between players of approximately equal and sufficiently great skill, with acceptable prevailing conditions) because of the knowledge they already have about Y's fare against X.


So yeah, you're darn right people will ALWAYS say the Y character sucked. Without extremely good reason to believe otherwise, there is a reason they currently think Y beats X, and they will rightly hold to it over a mere presentation of anecdotal data.

tl; dr: you're begging the question against the consensus (or just complaining).

 

[Shady Penguin]

i still dont agree with the second sentence, but w/e. it diverted because you stated an incorrect fact and you defended for a whole page >.<

It was diverted because you misunderstood my statement and tried to prove it wrong for a whole page. I don't know how many times I had to repeat myself.

 

[Ussi]

Ike vs Ike being most neutral? That makes me cry to hear that... Ike vs Ike is one of the worst matches for an Ike main... approaching equals losing in that match....

Also Ike has developed a bit lately.

as for most neutral match up... i have to think more about that..

 

[brinboy789]

It was diverted because you misunderstood my statement and tried to prove it wrong for a whole page. I don't know how many times I had to repeat myself.

you said that wario has bad knockback overall? only ganon and ike have GOOD knockback overall...but ok, screw it. its over. back to even matchups

 

[aeghrur]

stuff that's too long to be answered by this short of a post.

Nah, just complaining, lol.
The thing about assuming Y beats X is that, I can't argue it because there's not enough empirical data to go against the logical data. =/