The Most Controversial Thread on the Site! (Originally the Anti-Lucario/Pro Squirtle)

[OmegaXXII]

I noticed alot of people are confused by the slot thing, but mario series has always had the most reps, with Zelda & Pkmn not much behind

1000 post!!!

 

[brawlpro]

1001 post...

this is 1002...

anwayz ya'll lets not argue since we r entitled to our own opinion(i hate that word)

 

[_the_sandman_]

Wow! We finally made it! Over 1000 Posts! Oh happy day! The "somewhat" eternal debate about whether or not this cheesy character should be in Brawl continues.

 

[OysterMeister]

This is only a really important distinction for the "big 3" franchises, who have always had the largest (and approximatly co-equal) representation in smash. In melee, both Pokemon and Zelda had 4 "reps", but Zelda/shiek gave them 5 characters

PT is 3 characters, but it is only one rep... and since we can expect co-equal "reps" between Pokemon, Zelda, and Mario, we can expect at least 2, and possibly as many as 4 other pokemon to eventually be revealed.

That could give Pokemon 8 "characters", but it would only be 6 "slots"

This argument makes no sense when you think about it.
The thing you all seem to be missing is the concept of time. Sakurai only has a certain amount of time to make Brawl in, if he hopes to get this game out by its december release date. Creating a "rep" takes no time at all, since all a "rep" really needs is an icon on the select screen. Thus, Sakurai doesn't need to worry about creating "reps". A "moveset", on the other hand, DOES take time, so Sakurai DOES need to worry about how many movesets he can make.
Look at Pikachu and PT, there's only two Pokemon "reps" between them, but FOUR (count em': one, two, three..FOUR) movesets. It takes the same amount of time to make four "reps" with four movesets as it does to make only TWO "reps" with four movesets.

So what does all this mean? It means that PT is equal to three new pokemon characters. It doesn't matter that they only take up one slot, or that they COULD have taken up three (I'm looking at you Nothing Rhymes). What matters is that the Pokemon series currently has four fully playable movesets, and a more than decent chance of nabbing a total of six with returning fighters, and that the odds of anything greater are slim, regardless of how many faces eventually show up on the Brawl character select screen.

 

[Circus]

This argument makes no sense when you think about it.
The thing you all seem to be missing is the concept of time. Sakurai only has a certain amount of time to make Brawl in, if he hopes to get this game out by its december release date.

This is true. We all already know this. But this game isn't being rushed like Melee was. The perspective that I, personally, was speaking from was that of Sakurai finishing all the characters he wanted for Brawl and simply wanting certain spaces on the character select screen freed up, due to the "rep" thing. Time for making characters is important, yes, but Sakurai clearly has the time already. You act as if the team is scrambling for time and that because they spent so much time on Ivysaur, Squirtle, and Charizard, they won't have time for other pokemon. This isn't true.

Creating a "rep" takes no time at all, since all a "rep" really needs is an icon on the select screen. Thus, Sakurai doesn't need to worry about creating "reps". A "moveset", on the other hand, DOES take time, so Sakurai DOES need to worry about how many movesets he can make.

Also true. But again, who's to say he's crunched for time this go around? I was under the impression he had the luxary of time, given the fact that he and his team were actually able to flesh out a Story mode in this game.

If indeed he's not in a pickle with the time needed to make all these movesets, then he can afford to think about things like de-cluttering the Brawl roster (in the form of things like PT, not things like getting rid of whole characters. Just to be clear).

Look at Pikachu and PT, there's only two Pokemon "reps" between them, but FOUR (count em': one, two, three..FOUR) movesets. It takes the same amount of time to make four "reps" with four movesets as it does to make only TWO "reps" with four movesets.

Yes. Everyone in this thread, as well as probably everyone on this forum, knows this. I'm still not sure why people feel the need to repeat this. I am under no delusion that Ivysaur, Charizard and Squirtle were somehow easier to make just because they're on the same team.

So what does all this mean? It means that PT is equal to three new pokemon characters. It doesn't matter that they only take up one slot, or that they COULD have taken up three

Not in the sense of moveset making time, no. It does, however, matter if Sakurai wants to truly "fit in more for less". The thing is, I find it very unlikely that Sakurai would think it's a good idea to have less pokemon reps selectable from the character select screen than there were in Melee. This leads me to believe that PT and Pikachu will not be the only ones there. If he had wanted to, he could've just thrown Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle as completely separate characters and we would've had the same number we had in Melee. Fair trade, right? Seems like less work for him too (having to incorporate the animations with PT along with the 3 pokemon). So, it begs the question: Why would he do that? My guess is he wants other pokemon appearing on the character select screen. But, that's all that is—a guess.

(I'm looking at you Nothing Rhymes).

I'm flattered.

What matters is that the Pokemon series currently has four fully playable movesets, and a more than decent chance of nabbing a total of six with returning fighters, and that the odds of anything greater are slim, regardless of how many faces eventually show up on the Brawl character select screen.

As far as I can tell, the only reason you think the chances of more than 6 total pokemon characters is slim is that you think that's enough. Sakurai may disagree with you.

 

[kaid]

A "rep" is a measure of apparent fairness befween franchises. In Melee, MArio gets the most rep (5 in melee) folowed by Pokemn and Zelda. (4 rep each)

A character can be defined as time spent on making a moveset. There will probaby only be 40-48 "characters" in Brawl, IMO. However, in Melee, the "big 3" had 14 characters out of 26... over half the roster.

If we're conservitive and say the "Big 3" only get 22 reps, that averages to just over 7 movesets to each of the big 3. With Zelda/shiek and Pokemon Trainer, I see the "reps" being split, 7 to Mario, 6 each to Zelda (shiek doesn't count as rep) and 6 to Pokemon. (Who have 8 movesets, because of Trainer)

Keeping in mind my numbers are estimates, do people understand what I'm getting at?

 

[_the_sandman_]

This argument makes no sense when you think about it.
The thing you all seem to be missing is the concept of time. Sakurai only has a certain amount of time to make Brawl in, if he hopes to get this game out by its december release date. Creating a "rep" takes no time at all, since all a "rep" really needs is an icon on the select screen. Thus, Sakurai doesn't need to worry about creating "reps". A "moveset", on the other hand, DOES take time, so Sakurai DOES need to worry about how many movesets he can make.
Look at Pikachu and PT, there's only two Pokemon "reps" between them, but FOUR (count em': one, two, three..FOUR) movesets. It takes the same amount of time to make four "reps" with four movesets as it does to make only TWO "reps" with four movesets.

So what does all this mean? It means that PT is equal to three new pokemon characters. It doesn't matter that they only take up one slot, or that they COULD have taken up three (I'm looking at you Nothing Rhymes). What matters is that the Pokemon series currently has four fully playable movesets, and a more than decent chance of nabbing a total of six with returning fighters, and that the odds of anything greater are slim, regardless of how many faces eventually show up on the Brawl character select screen.

Thank you... finally someone else can see the light!

 

[_the_sandman_]

*Goes to site....returns to thread*

Looks like I was right about Toad not being playable in Brawl.

Sandman: 2
Illogical Fanatics: 0

So Petey being playable and Lucario not being in doesn't seem so crazy anymore now does it?

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Uh, those were isolated incidents. Petey Piranha is still a stupid suggestion, and Lucario still has a huge chance of being playable.
I still can't understand why you think Nintendo will just go retro with Pokemon representation in Brawl. Maybe it's because you despise newer Pokemon, and feel the inclusion of ANY of them would be HORRIBLE.
I don't want to argue with you any more, because logic is obviously a foreign concept for you.

 

[majoras.]

nintendo not going retro?
lol@u sir, see the dojo, NEW UPDATE---red plus the 3 red/blue/green starters!!

theres your retro

 

[Circus]

*Goes to site....returns to thread*

Looks like I was right about Toad not being playable in Brawl.

Sandman: 2
Illogical Fanatics: 0

So Petey being playable and Lucario not being in doesn't seem so crazy anymore now does it?

Why wouldn't it seem so crazy? Because you were right about two things? That hardly makes you all-knowing.

Why did you even bring Toad into this? This isn't the thread for it. This isn't just some thread for you to gloat in, you know.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Why wouldn't it seem so crazy? Because you were right about two things? That hardly makes you all-knowing.

Why did you even bring Toad into this? This isn't the thread for it. This isn't just some thread for you to gloat in, you know.

I basically made a thread where 90% of the people keep telling me how wrong I am about Lucario. And anytime I bring up another character here I am still told I'm wrong.

Cut me some slack. Anytime I come here I'm told how my ideas are a joke constantly. I'd make a thread full of nothing but my ideas but it this one is already successful so I like to throw some of my suggestions into here.

Besides most of the people that like Lucario are fans of WW Link, Toad, Bowser Jr., Tom Nook, and Wolf. All characters that I'm not too fond of for Brawl. And my list increases.

So I think after having 60+ pages of people telling me I'm wrong about everything, I deserve some slack for standing up to the mob.

 

[Circus]

I basically made a thread where 90% of the people keep telling me how wrong I am about Lucario. And anytime I bring up another character here I am still told I'm wrong.

Cut me some slack. Anytime I come here I'm told how my ideas are a joke constantly. I'd make a thread full of nothing but my ideas but it this one is already successful so I like to throw some of my suggestions into here.

Besides most of the people that like Lucario are fans of WW Link, Toad, Bowser Jr., Tom Nook, and Wolf. All characters that I'm not too fond of for Brawl. And my list increases.

So I think after having 60+ pages of people telling me I'm wrong about everything, I deserve some slack for standing up to the mob.

The reason you have a mob on you in the first place is because of the way you handle things exactly like this. You're entitled to think Lucario won't get in or anything else—I can respect your opinion. But you're very abrasive about it. You speak as if you know things you don't know and just carry a very potent sense of superiority in a lot of your posts.

There happen to be a fair amount of Lucario supporters on this board, so of course they're going to defend him. That's basically what you're asking for when you make a thread like this. But maybe they wouldn't be quite so adamant about breathing down your neck if you didn't think you were so high and mighty. When I read your posts, they just come off as being rude most of the time.

Example: I was right about Deoxys not being in, but I didn't go over to the Deoxys thread and go "Did you really think he was going to be in? Chock another point up for me"

 

[SilentFox12345]

squirtle would be awesome, but i think that any new pokes will be third or fourth gen

 

[_the_sandman_]

The reason you have a mob on you in the first place is because of the way you handle things exactly like this. You're entitled to think Lucario won't get in or anything else—I can respect your opinion. But you're very abrasive about it. You speak as if you know things you don't know and just carry a very potent sense of superiority in a lot of your posts.

There happen to be a fair amount of Lucario supporters on this board, so of course they're going to defend him. That's basically what you're asking for when you make a thread like this. But maybe they wouldn't be quite so adamant about breathing down your neck if you didn't think you were so high and mighty. When I read your posts, they just come off as being rude most of the time.

Example: I was right about Deoxys not being in, but I didn't go over to the Deoxys thread and go "Did you really think he was going to be in? Chock another point up for me"

I say things like "Did you really think he was going to be in" because anytime I disagree with people I get bashed about it. And when I'm right about it others deny it. Its something I've been dealing with ever since I've been on these boards.

Like, Lucario for example. I really don't think he should be in Brawl as a playable character. I use words like "think" to show I can't predict the future. But sometimes I say things like "he will not be in Brawl" because I really don't care for the guy.

When I'm wrong about something I'll say I'm wrong. I won't deny it. I embrace the fact I was wrong and they were right. Otherwise I will say it how it is, characters like TOAD are not Brawl material.



Just hope Lucario is playable so all of you can tell me how wrong I am!

or worse....

When I'm right, think about all of the people that will deny it and say how wrong I am!

 

[Black/Light]

A "rep" is a measure of apparent fairness befween franchises. In Melee, MArio gets the most rep (5 in melee) folowed by Pokemn and Zelda. (4 rep each)

A character can be defined as time spent on making a moveset. There will probaby only be 40-48 "characters" in Brawl, IMO. However, in Melee, the "big 3" had 14 characters out of 26... over half the roster.

If we're conservitive and say the "Big 3" only get 22 reps, that averages to just over 7 movesets to each of the big 3. With Zelda/shiek and Pokemon Trainer, I see the "reps" being split, 7 to Mario, 6 each to Zelda (shiek doesn't count as rep) and 6 to Pokemon. (Who have 8 movesets, because of Trainer)

Keeping in mind my numbers are estimates, do people understand what I'm getting at?

Sorry but this doesn't make any sense at all..

You are grasping at strews now Sir. Kaid.

We only have one example of one character's "slot" getting more than one character in it before now. Thats Zelda in Melee. This was a case where not only did it add a unique twist to the character but it added a character to smash.

It makes no sense to me to think that "reps" are anything other than characters form w/e series. What difference does it make if said characters are grouped together in a slot like Z/S?

And I might not be a future sight but I KNOW Pokemon aint getting more characters than mario. No matter how you flip it Mario aint going to be 2nded by pokemon in the character numbers. If mario gets 7 characters than the most Pokemon can hope to get is 7 characters. . . and we gots 3 old ones that may or maynot come back with 4 confirmed playable pokemon. IMO if you want some more new pokemon you are better off hoping that 2 of the 3 yet to be confirmed pokemon get replaced.

(Really, I think that this is complete made up BS on your part. Who said that "rep=Icon on rooster"? Who said that now characters=/=rep but the icon on the screen=rep? If I was making this game and had the super idea to make pokemon trainer a 3 in one character I sure as hell wouldn't think "well, after making 3 characters be inside one slot I now HAVE to make even more characters to fill up the other slots because it's the amount of slots thats important. . . not the amount of characters playable".

All we probly know for sure is that the big 3 will have more characters than the rest of the series in brawl. Pokemon can get anywhere between 4 and Mario's amount of characters. . . it aint getting more based on "slots")

 

[GDhunter95]

1.) Well movesets are supposed to be interesting, not to mention that many attacks for certain characters come from their games. Pikachu - Thunder bolt, Thunder, Quick Attack, and Skull Bash. Jiggs- Pound, Sing, Rest, and Rollout. Mewtwo - Shadow Ball, Disable, Teleport, and Confusion.

Movesets for all characters in general should be interesting and unique.

2.) This is about the greatest game characters, not movie characters. Quit using the movie as a crutch for Lucario. You don't realize how much the reference to the movie hurts him for your cause.

3.) Pokemon was popular back in the "retro" days. Keep the originals for series like Pokemon, Mario, Zelda, and Kirby. Other series can have newer characters from Fire Emblem, Custom Robo, Golden Sun, Advance Wars, and Pikmin. Pokemon doesn't really recycle characters, they are always changing. So just stick with the originals who ARE the most recognizable.

4.) Again, the movies are just a crutch. Don't rely on them.

5.) What is this all about? Does this have anything to do with the game? You might as well remove Ganondorf from the game because nobody can spell his name right.

Your missing the point. All of the Pokemon attacks are named or designed after moves that they might possess in the Pokemon games, but they are interpretations of the moves created by the game designers. If a moveset is interesting its because they designed it that way. Not because the character had interesting moves to begin with. You also seem to ignore the fact that Pikachu's Quick Attack and Skull bash, Jigglypuff's Rest, and Mewtwo's Confusion, Disable, and Teleport are nothing like their counterparts in the Pokemon game.

I'll concede that this isn't about movie characters, but I refuse to drop the point that the Anime is still the major reason for most Pokemon's popularity. Otherwise more of the pokemon that are overused in the games would be up for discussion like Skarmony. Also, this isn't my crusade. I just like friendly debate. I don't care whether or not Lucario gets into Brawl. The pokemon I currently want to see make it in is Eevee which has always been my favorite Poke.

Lastly, I probably should have made it more clear, but Point 5 wasn't directed at you but the guy who posted after you asking for how it was pronounced.

This argument makes no sense when you think about it.
The thing you all seem to be missing is the concept of time. Sakurai only has a certain amount of time to make Brawl in, if he hopes to get this game out by its december release date. Creating a "rep" takes no time at all, since all a "rep" really needs is an icon on the select screen. Thus, Sakurai doesn't need to worry about creating "reps". A "moveset", on the other hand, DOES take time, so Sakurai DOES need to worry about how many movesets he can make.
Look at Pikachu and PT, there's only two Pokemon "reps" between them, but FOUR (count em': one, two, three..FOUR) movesets. It takes the same amount of time to make four "reps" with four movesets as it does to make only TWO "reps" with four movesets.

So what does all this mean? It means that PT is equal to three new pokemon characters. It doesn't matter that they only take up one slot, or that they COULD have taken up three (I'm looking at you Nothing Rhymes). What matters is that the Pokemon series currently has four fully playable movesets, and a more than decent chance of nabbing a total of six with returning fighters, and that the odds of anything greater are slim, regardless of how many faces eventually show up on the Brawl character select screen.

I appologize for not quoting in the proper color. Time doesn't seem to be a pressure issue for Sakurai seeing as how he has the freetime to do things like add stickers and create an engaging single player campaign. The real sore point is that people want to complain that designing one character with three parts that could possibly stand alone as three seperate characters takes more effort then designing one character on its own. This isn't necessarily true. People just assume that Character Designing, Model Animation, and Move programming all take the same amount of time for every character. If it takes me about three hours to complete one model that I already have resources for and about fifteen hours to create one model from scratch. Would it be fair to say that the three models that I produced in about nine hours took more time then the one model I needed fifteen hours to build from scratch?

*Goes to site....returns to thread*

Looks like I was right about Toad not being playable in Brawl.

Sandman: 2
Illogical Fanatics: 0

So Petey being playable and Lucario not being in doesn't seem so crazy anymore now does it?

Peach <3

And really its not like Toad still being Peach's shield completely negates his chances. It HAS happened before in fighting games. My Servbot says so!

 

[Black/Light]

squirtle would be awesome, but i think that any new pokes will be third or fourth gen

. . .Alil late aint ya?

 

[_the_sandman_]

Ok, let me explain this again. Sakurai is probably going for a theme for every franchise.

Twilight Link, Twilight Zelda, Bridge of Eldin - Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Jungle Beat DK, Bongo Final, and Rumble Falls - Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Mission Zero Samus, Zero Suit Samus - Metroid: Mission Zero
Pastel style Yoshi, Yoshi's Island - Yoshi's Island
And so on....

This is happening to ALL of the characters so far. It seems like Sakurai basically picked one game for each group and based all of their abilities, styles, and levels off of one game for each one.

Pokemon will probably follow that same rule.
Pikachu
Jigglypuff (Most likely)
Mewtwo (Most likey)
Trainer (With Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard)

It seems to me like Sakurai is going for the Red/Blue version of the pokemon series. Its happening to all of the other characters so why not the Pokemon group. If this is true then we will not be seeing Lucario since he isn't part of this particular game, but instead the 4th gen game.

 

[GDhunter95]

Ok, let me explain this again. Sakurai is probably going for a theme for every franchise.

Twilight Link, Twilight Zelda, Bridge of Eldin - Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Jungle Beat DK, Bongo Final, and Rumble Falls - Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Mission Zero Samus, Zero Suit Samus - Metroid: Mission Zero
Pastel style Yoshi, Yoshi's Island - Yoshi's Island
And so on....

This is happening to ALL of the characters so far. It seems like Sakurai basically picked one game for each group and based all of their abilities, styles, and levels off of one game for each one.

Pokemon will probably follow that same rule.
Pikachu
Jigglypuff (Most likely)
Mewtwo (Most likey)
Trainer (With Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard)

It seems to me like Sakurai is going for the Red/Blue version of the pokemon series. Its happening to all of the other characters so why not the Pokemon group. If this is true then we will not be seeing Lucario since he isn't part of this particular game, but instead the 4th gen game.

Ah, you know trying to figure out Sakurai's decisions based on observation haven't worked very well for anyone on this forum.

What about the fact Fox's new look is a hybrid of his past looks? What about the fact that Lylat Cruise is an original stage? What about the fact Mario and Bowser look nothing like they do in Mario Sunshine? What about the fact that Sakurai specifically said that the Fire Emblem Castle isn't supposed to represent any particular castle in the series? How can you possibly say that he's picking one game to stylize all the characters and stages in a franchise to?

 

[Nergal]

I say things like "Did you really think he was going to be in" because anytime I disagree with people I get bashed about it. And when I'm right about it others deny it. Its something I've been dealing with ever since I've been on these boards.

Like, Lucario for example. I really don't think he should be in Brawl as a playable character. I use words like "think" to show I can't predict the future. But sometimes I say things like "he will not be in Brawl" because I really don't care for the guy.

When I'm wrong about something I'll say I'm wrong. I won't deny it. I embrace the fact I was wrong and they were right. Otherwise I will say it how it is, characters like TOAD are not Brawl material.



Just hope Lucario is playable so all of you can tell me how wrong I am!

or worse....

When I'm right, think about all of the people that will deny it and say how wrong I am!

Sandman, Nothing Rhymes is right in that you come off as very pompus & self-congratulatory. You are entitled to you opinion, you just need a smoother way of going about it.

 

[Conker1]

Besides most of the people that like Lucario are fans of WW Link, Toad, Bowser Jr., Tom Nook, and Wolf. All characters that I'm not too fond of for Brawl. And my list increases.

Thank you. That is the list characters I would hate to see in Brawl(plus Megaman).

I really think Lucario has no chance. He's just a random Pokemon, he as much a chance as Toxicroak. Who? EXACTLY.

Besides, Brawl is most likely finished. There are only 3 months left, they're probably bug testing.

 

[OysterMeister]

I appologize for not quoting in the proper color. Time doesn't seem to be a pressure issue for Sakurai seeing as how he has the freetime to do things like add stickers and create an engaging single player campaign.

Would you say that Melee wasn't rushed since Sakurai had enough "freetime" to create 51 event matches, a 12-stage adventure mode, sound test, and hundreds of fully-modeled and textured trophies? I wouldn't.

Now don't get me wrong, I know that Sakurai has far more time to work on Brawl than he did for the first two games and far more resources and people to work on it with. But don't be fooled. This doesn't mean Sakurai is free from deadlines, only that he has a better one to work with than he's had in the past. Time has always been and will always be a concern for making games, just as time is always a factor when making movies, or cartoons, or writing books.
Sakurai has a deadline he's working towards, and he knows it.

The real sore point is that people want to complain that designing one character with three parts that could possibly stand alone as three seperate characters takes more effort then designing one character on its own. This isn't necessarily true. People just assume that Character Designing, Model Animation, and Move programming all take the same amount of time for every character. If it takes me about three hours to complete one model that I already have resources for and about fifteen hours to create one model from scratch. Would it be fair to say that the three models that I produced in about nine hours took more time then the one model I needed fifteen hours to build from scratch?

Every model created in Smash has to be made from scratch. So, according to your own example, they must all take the same time (15 hours) to make. But I'm not an idiot; I'll admit that some models are quicker to make than others. Kirby, for instance, probably went much quicker than Ike.
But there's more to character creation than modeling. Animating them, for instance, probably takes closer to the same amount of time to do, since even simple characters like Kirby require subtle, time-consuming jiggling that probably eats up the time other characters take for finer details such as fingers and toes.
And then of course implementing all those moves takes almost exactly the same amount of time to program, since lines of code are the same length whether the attack animation they control is two seconds or two hours.
So, overall, I'd say it's fair to assume that each character with a moveset requires roughly the same amount of time to create.


So what does this mean? Well, you tell me: If Sakurai is working on a deadline and knows that it's movesets, not icons on the select screen, that takes time to implement, what would he put his attention to? Movesets, or character icons on the select screen?

 

[digifreak642]

I don't really like Lucario. He seems right now to be the best 4th gen pokemon, but in 5 years will we remember him? Pikachu and Mewtwo will always be memorable, but in a few years Lucario will be just another pokemon.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Yeah, Melee was unfortunately rushed. I mean look at the amount of clone characters, its a total of 6. Then you look at a game like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 which has 50+ characters, and one clone (two Wolverines).

I really doubt Sakurai wanted to put in 6 clones, which basically screwed over 6 other characters because they had to be divided up. I also believe with the amount of time he has had making this game he will do anything he can to bring justice to the Smash series.

I don't want to get into a wavedashing debate. But glitches like that, as well as invisible walls, and attacks like Falco's DAir and Marth's tip are going to be fixed. (Falco was changed in the PAL version after all. And Marth's tip is a 60% difference) Not to mention how some of the characters are unfinished. You ever notice how sloppy Zelda and Sheik both were? Wall jump with Sheik and try to tell me that looks graceful. Marth and Roy both had 90% of their attacks be single arc swipes. Bowser, Mr.Game&Watch, and Mewtwo were terrible characters. Is this making any sense to everyone? The game was unfinished!

Which brings me back to Lucario. Many people say Lucario will get in because Roy was able to get in. Many people say Pichu represented the 2nd gen so Lucario should represent the 4th. Some of you might not get it yet, but we'll say it again. Smash Bros Melee was not completed. It was forced, rushed, and untested. Its no wonder why characters like Pichu and Roy were able to get in.

Sakurai has enough time to perfect the game now. And since he is representing the Red/Blue version of pokemon he probably won't allow Lucario to become a playable character.

 

[Stryks]

Who said hes just representing red/blue/green? just because we got to 1st gen reps we wil lautomatically just get 1st gens? I fail to see that logic...

and roy was a clone, but was added to promote FE6 as well... which is why FE became popular and now being released in america...

 

[OysterMeister]

^^^That's not really the line of logic I was following, Sandman.

Ask anyone in the industry (in ANY creative industry, really), and they'll tell you that no game is ever truly complete. There's always more work that could be done, but sooner or later the deadline comes due and you've got to stop working.
I don't think Melee was unfinished, I think it's a brilliantly well done game with an unbelievable level of polish. I just think Sakurai didn't have enough time to put in everything he wanted.

Brawl has less of a deadline issue than Melee did. There's more time, people, and resources this time around, and all that bodes well. But none of that means that there ISN'T a deadline, just that more content can be put into the game before the deadline comes due.

And that's my point. Brawl has the time, so it will be a bigger game than Melee, and that means more characters all around. But that doesn't mean that there aren't limits. There's still a finite number of movesets Sakurai can add to the game, and he's going to have to divide those up among the various franchises. As of now, Pokemon has four movesets to its name, and above average chances of getting to six if Jiggs and Mewtwo return. I'm just saying that Lucario, that ANY new pokemon rep, now has severely reduced chances since they're all in competition for an unheard of seventh spot.

 

[brawlpro]

sakurai had enough time...

 

[_the_sandman_]

Ok, let me explain this again. Sakurai is probably going for a theme for every franchise.

Twilight Link, Twilight Zelda, Bridge of Eldin - Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Jungle Beat DK, Bongo Final, and Rumble Falls - Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
Mission Zero Samus, Zero Suit Samus - Metroid: Mission Zero
Pastel style Yoshi, Yoshi's Island - Yoshi's Island
And so on....

This is happening to ALL of the characters so far. It seems like Sakurai basically picked one game for each group and based all of their abilities, styles, and levels off of one game for each one.

Pokemon will probably follow that same rule.
Pikachu
Jigglypuff (Most likely)
Mewtwo (Most likey)
Trainer (With Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard)

It seems to me like Sakurai is going for the Red/Blue version of the pokemon series. Its happening to all of the other characters so why not the Pokemon group. If this is true then we will not be seeing Lucario since he isn't part of this particular game, but instead the 4th gen game.

Stryks, check this out....

Last time I explained this it was around 4AM. Read it and think about it. This is happening to everyone so far.

 

[Procrasticritter]

I think Lucario could be an interesting character, and I wouldn't mind him in, but I'm not that concerned if he's not. I don't really understand why he's so popular with a whole bunch of people and hated by a bunch of others. I suppose that's true of every character. I'm glad they gave us Pokemon trainer with generation 1 Pokemon, especially Charizard.

big fire-breathing dragon pokemon > Lucario

 

[Stryks]

Snadman, thats just because everything that has been shown is from 1 theme per franchise, that can change next week, month or we can realize it when we got the game itself...

If they add Krystal with the staff (which seems the most logical choice for uniqueness) that will break ur theory since Fox is based on command, and the staff is from adventures, just an example...

Theres still time and sakurai can reveal a 2 and above gen pokemon, WW link, vaati, geno (doubt it any time soon, but could happen in the final weeks) and so on, we can speculate all we want, but we cant confirm anything, u already said were just getting 1st gens, I ask you, got any real proof? or just more speculation?

 

[ClarkJables]

i don't know, because the tp models for the zelda characters contradict this. they went with the newest models suggesting that sakurai is oging with what he thinks is best. i don't think he cares about generations as much as some of the people on these boards do, but for the sake of the fans he will probably add a 4th gen rep. my point in this argument is that lucario isn't the only 4th gen pokemon. read some arguments from fans of mime jr. munchlax, and weavile (dun care how its spelled anymore). their are just as convincing if not more so then the lucario arguments.

 

[Bassoonist]

Stryks, check this out....

Last time I explained this it was around 4AM. Read it and think about it. This is happening to everyone so far.

I have a hard time believing that. I'm sure there'll be some other generation Pokemon. Sure the first 150 (or 151 whatever.) are the most awesome, but there's more to the Pokemon world then that. Sakurai is aware of that. Lucario IS possible.

I do believe that the characters are collectively representing their character as a whole. Link and Zelda may LOOK like their selves from TP, but that could be just because that's what Link and Zelda look on the most recent Zelda game, nothing more. :o I mean, if that was TP Link he'd have to have the ability to turn into a Wolf, that's part of TP Link...

 

[silver777]

You cannot say that is Zelda FROM Twilight Princess (as in story-related), but it IS her Twilight Princess design (obviously). It just says in Link and Zelda's profiles in Melee that they came from the "Zelda series", not "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" even though their designs were based off of that game. Furthermore, they took things from other Zelda games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee. The design does not automatically make them come from a certain game. If that were so, they wouldn't have taken things from other games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee.
All they are doing is taking Link and Zelda (the CHARACTERS, mind you), taking their most updated designs and taking things from that game and other games. Sure, you could say that's Link's design from Twilight Princess, but it is not Link FROM Twilight Princess. Link and Zelda in these games are just that: Link and Zelda, not TP Link or Ocarina Link.
I hope you get my point.

 

[SmashRevenant]

Screw Lucario... He is a newer gen. pokemon who doesnt deserve it, not alota people know who he is unless you play the pokemon games and watch the movies and such.. But yeah Squirtle ftw, they better give him the Squirtle Squad glasses when he taunts :D

 

[Circus]

not alota people know who he is unless you play the pokemon games and watch the movies and such

And if you don't play F-Zero, you wouldn't know who Captain Falcon is, right? But, oh, look, he's in Smash. . . .

 

[_the_sandman_]

Snadman, thats just because everything that has been shown is from 1 theme per franchise, that can change next week, month or we can realize it when we got the game itself...

If they add Krystal with the staff (which seems the most logical choice for uniqueness) that will break ur theory since Fox is based on command, and the staff is from adventures, just an example...

Theres still time and sakurai can reveal a 2 and above gen pokemon, WW link, vaati, geno (doubt it any time soon, but could happen in the final weeks) and so on, we can speculate all we want, but we cant confirm anything, u already said were just getting 1st gens, I ask you, got any real proof? or just more speculation?

Peach has vegetables, a tennis racket, a frying pan, and a golf club. So moveset wise they can make any character use all of their items and skills from any game they appeared in.

Though if Krystal was in she is going to be in her command style since Fox and his Level are both from command. She can have her staff since it came from one of the games, but her style would still most likely be her command style.

All I can do is guess. But just look at all of the characters and you can see how it is happening. You can't deny the fact that everything for Zelda so far has been from Twilight Princess. I mean if all of these characters came from the same "world", then they'll look like one another since they came form the same place. So WW Link appearing with TP Link wouldn't make sense since they are from the same world but with different styles.

As for the roster, Sakurai could be keeping all of the characters together in the same group and games. Anyone that makes it into the Starfox team will most likely have appeared in Command. Anyone that makes it into the Fire Emblem team will most likely have appeared in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. Same goes for Pokemon, if they appeared in Red/Blue, then they will appear in Brawl.

 

[brawlpro]

And if you don't play F-Zero, you wouldn't know who Captain Falcon is, right? But, oh, look, he's in Smash. . . .

ooooo, smashrevenant got his *** OWNED!!! naw just kidding, he's new, give him a good time for the first few weeks/dayz circus...

 

[silver777]

You cannot say that is Zelda FROM Twilight Princess (as in story-related), but it IS her Twilight Princess design (obviously). It just says in Link and Zelda's profiles in Melee that they came from the "Zelda series", not "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" even though their designs were based off of that game. Furthermore, they took things from other Zelda games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee. The design does not automatically make them come from a certain game. If that were so, they wouldn't have taken things from other games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee.
All they are doing is taking Link and Zelda (the CHARACTERS, mind you), taking their most updated designs and taking things from that game and other games. Sure, you could say that's Link's design from Twilight Princess, but it is not Link FROM Twilight Princess. Link and Zelda in these games are just that: Link and Zelda, not TP Link or Ocarina Link.
I hope you get my point.

edit: duble post FTL.

 

[_the_sandman_]

Hahaha, I've been quoted in a sig!

You cannot say that is Zelda FROM Twilight Princess (as in story-related), but it IS her Twilight Princess design (obviously). It just says in Link and Zelda's profiles in Melee that they came from the "Zelda series", not "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" even though their designs were based off of that game. Furthermore, they took things from other Zelda games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee. The design does not automatically make them come from a certain game. If that were so, they wouldn't have taken things from other games besides Ocarina and put them in Melee.
All they are doing is taking Link and Zelda (the CHARACTERS, mind you), taking their most updated designs and taking things from that game and other games. Sure, you could say that's Link's design from Twilight Princess, but it is not Link FROM Twilight Princess. Link and Zelda in these games are just that: Link and Zelda, not TP Link or Ocarina Link.
I hope you get my point.

edit: duble post FTL.

Well in Melee it could have been argued that Sakurai was going for an Ocarina theme since it was Link, Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf, and Young Link. And though any character in Smash can take any ability from any game they have used, their style in Brawl will all be the same depending on the group.

Zelda could still transform into Sheik because that was one of her skills in a Zelda game, but her main style will most likely be like Twilight Princess. Just the way the Zelda team looks, as well as the level, can be very convincing that Sakurai is following the Twilight Princess style.