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The Most Controversial Thread on the Site! (Originally the Anti-Lucario/Pro Squirtle)

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The_Corax_King

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sandman,

why wouldn't there be a balance between the new and the old...

Link has obviously gotten updated to his Twilight look... not to mention the bride of Eldin...

Why does pokemon have to be COMPLETELY retro...? Why can't the newer generations be represented?

Why was Pichu in melee if everyone only cared about the 1st gen?


edit:

Clark, now you ARE putting words in my mouth...
I have said twice now that they shouldn't have the mushroom logo...

All I am saying is that Pokemon won't outnumber Mario... because wario and yoshi are mario characters...
 

_the_sandman_

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sandman,

why wouldn't there be a balance between the new and the old...

Link has obviously gotten updated to his Twilight look... not to mention the bride of Eldin...

Why does pokemon have to be COMPLETELY retro...? Why can't the newer generations be represented?

Why was Pichu in melee if everyone only cared about the 1st gen?
Pichu was filler because the game was rushed. And Sakurai is making this game for EVERYONE so he wants many recognizable characters in the game.

Everyone has played the original Pokemon at this point, so why not have the Brawl list represent them. Let Zero Samus and Ike fill up the "new character" area. Leave the old school characters to the most popular Pokemon generation.
 

Circus

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no, he wouldn't be justin timberlake. he would be an artist that started out in a band then became so popular he quit the band and had a wonderufl solo carear
. . . Which is exactly what Justin Timberlake is. :ohwell:

sure in some respect he is connected to that band
EXACTLY. That's been my whole point from the beginning. The fact is that those characters are still somewhat related. They're not "band members" anymore, but there is a connection, and I think that connection deserves some attention in this case. Pokemon would not outnumber characters that are at least to an extent part of the Mario universe. Not MARIO CHARACTERS, but CHARACTERS FROM THE UNIVERSE.

but does that mean we forget about everything he did since.
I don't remember anyone saying we should.

and yes, saying wario and dk count as mario characters is the same as saying they should all have the mushroom symbol
I think you're getting what I've been saying twisted. I stressed in at least two posts now that they would count only as partial Mario characters. I just think that the part of them that is still connected to Mario deserves to be noted. I guess I'll lean a bit on DK, but Wario and Yoshi aren't just completely independent characters in the same way that Link and Fox are.
 

ClarkJables

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sandman,

why wouldn't there be a balance between the new and the old...

Link has obviously gotten updated to his Twilight look... not to mention the bride of Eldin...

Why does pokemon have to be COMPLETELY retro...? Why can't the newer generations be represented?

Why was Pichu in melee if everyone only cared about the 1st gen?


edit:

Clark, now you ARE putting words in my mouth...
I have said twice now that they shouldn't have the mushroom logo...

All I am saying is that Pokemon won't outnumber Mario... because wario and yoshi are mario characters...

exactly, you say they are mario characters. if they are mario characters then they have the mario symbol, but they don't so they ARE NOT mario characters, except for maybe yoshi because he hasn't done nearly enough on his own to count. what you said is just like syaing they should have mario symbols, because of the afore mentioned
 

The_Corax_King

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If EVERYONE played the original games...

Why have Diamond and Pearl sold more copies than any other pokemon game?


edit: read circus' posts... he explains better than I do I suppose...

I guess "Mario Universe" would be a better term to use... (especially since you can't seem to understand what I mean by "mario character")


To put it in words you may understand... POKEMON UNIVERSE WILL NOT OUTNUMBER THE MARIO UNIVERSE...
 

_the_sandman_

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The symbols show which characters are part of which FRANCHISE. Why would you argue with evidence that has been shown since the first Smash Bros? Why is their victory music different? Its because they are from a different franchise.

If Diddy appeared in Brawl, wouldn't you consider him part of the DK series? You couldn't consider him to be part of Mario now would you?
 

Shuma

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Ok about the pokemons, it clear that sakurai doesn't like the new pokemons.

Or haven't you noticed that all the playable pokemons so far are ALL from the first generation minus Pichu?
 

_the_sandman_

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If EVERYONE played the original games...

Why have Diamond and Pearl sold more copies than any other pokemon game?
Every kid around the world wanted their hands on the Pokemon cards during the first gen. Hats, toys, paper plates, stickers, wrapping paper, shoes, gloves, notebooks, and almost any item found in a dollor store had the first gen characers stamped onto every product. You're telling me that the first gen wasn't as popular as the 4th?

You're delusional if you believe that....
 

Circus

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exactly, you say they are mario characters. if they are mario characters then they have the mario symbol, but they don't so they ARE NOT mario characters, except for maybe yoshi because he hasn't done nearly enough on his own to count. what you said is just like syaing they should have mario symbols, because of the afore mentioned
That right there disproves your whole post, and possibly your whole point. By saying that Yoshi might not deserve to be his own character DESPITE the fact that he has his own symbol, you prove that the symbols don't mean anything. They have their own game symbols now, but they're still characters born from Mario's universe. If you consider Yoshi to be a Mario character then what makes Wario any better? Because he has more solo games? That's an awfully weak reason, imo.
 

ClarkJables

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well yoshi did one game that was still tied to mario and then a sequal that threw in 2 more mario characters while wario has 2 highly successful series which don't feature mario, aside from 3 second cameo's in minigames. and yoshi is still being used for his original purpose as a mount, while you haven't seen wario in any recent mario adventure games as the villian
 

_the_sandman_

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Yoshi has had his own games though. And any time Mario has appeared in a Yoshi game, Mario was a baby and didn't offer much to the game. The games are always refered to the Yoshi characters, and Yoshi's style is much more like a storybook unlike Mario's style.

The Yoshi games are much different than the Mario games. That's why they are considered to be a part of a different franchise.
 

Stryks

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OMFG Sandmans post on the other was just WRONG in every way, its ALL opinion, non of it is FACT, im repliying tomorrow, im on my wii and it would take like hours or something...
 

ClarkJables

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but then again, yoshi still shows up in mario adventure games as a mount, as recently as paper mario 2 and mario sunshine. yoshi has not completely severed that cord, and for that reason i cannot count him as his own series
 

_the_sandman_

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OMFG Sandmans post on the other was just WRONG in every way, its ALL opinion, non of it is FACT, im repliying tomorrow, im on my wii and it would take like hours or something...
This is coming from a guy that still believes Squirtle isn't a playable character.

I can't help it if I keep proving you wrong. Its not my fault you have a terrible opinion compared to mine.
 

The_Corax_King

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No **** they are a different franchise... no one disagrees...

All we are saying is that Yoshi and Wario are part of the Mario universe... so pokemon will NOT outnumber mario characters...

and about Diddy... I have stated OVER and OVER that DK is independent... please read my posts...
 

_the_sandman_

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but then again, yoshi still shows up in mario adventure games as a mount, as recently as paper mario 2 and mario sunshine. yoshi has not completely severed that cord, and for that reason i cannot count him as his own series
The Yoshi Story games are much different than any other Mario game I have seen. Yoshi can sell a game on his own at this point, so I consider him to be part of a different franchise.

Waluigi and Daisy can't sell a game on their own, that's why they stuck to Mario. But Wario is able to sell games on his own, therefor he is part of a different franchise.
 

Johnknight1

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This is coming from a guy that still believes Squirtle isn't a playable character.

I can't help it if I keep proving you wrong. Its not my fault you have a terrible opinion compared to mine.
Dude STFU and GTFO! WE all have the right to our opinion dude, and stop being a mother f***ing jerk already. Seriously, no onne attacked your opinion to why Squirtle shoudl be in, we insulted your biased and unreasonable reasons to why Squirtle should be in, and Lucario out.

And for all you morons, Pokemon D/P is already the #1 selling DS game, so ha! It's expected to outsell all other Pokemon games by a huge margin, and could very well be the best selling game since Donkey Kong Country.
 

ClarkJables

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you say they are different franchises and then you say they are part of the mario universe, you contradict yourself and you don't know it. link appeared in soul calibur so is he part of the soul calibur universe, the answer to which is no


yah and shaw shank redemption made no money at the box office and now its one of the greatest movies ever made. overrated and underrated are words for a reason. the pokemon series has been building up, it was a hit when it came out and now you have both old and young playing, couple that with the fact that the ds is selling more then the game boy it is obivous to see why the D/P generation could sell more. but think about this, what happens when the 5th generation comes out and it sells more then D/P, or when the 6th or 7th or 8th, these generations are all fads that eventually pass depending on which so called generation is out
 

Circus

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Yoshi has had his own games though. And any time Mario has appeared in a Yoshi game, Mario was a baby and didn't offer much to the game. The games are always refered to the Yoshi characters, and Yoshi's style is much more like a storybook unlike Mario's style.
This isn't about the game styles though. It's about the characters. Bringing up Baby Mario only helps my point. Why would one of Yoshi's games revolve around baby Mario if he's not still at least partially (4th time doing this) considered apart of Mario's universe?

The Yoshi games are much different than the Mario games. That's why they are considered to be a part of a different franchise.
You know, the Mario adventure games, the Mario Kart games, and the Mario Party games are much different from each other too. But they're still a part of the same franchise, aren't they? Regardless, it doesn't matter. Yoshi still has a large tie to Mario. Wario, maybe a little less, but the tie is still there. It always will be. You can't forget your roots. Wario was created, at first, to be Mario's rival. This can't be denied. Wario is not a completely independent franchise the way Zelda, Starfox, and Metroid are (this must be the fourth time I've brought up this point and I've yet to see a counter to it).
 

Stryks

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UR NOT PROVING ME WRONG, U HAVE NEVER PROVED ANYTHING TO BEGIN WITH...

Newsflash kid when was the last time u saw 1st gen pkmn merchandise selling?? THEYRE NOT STICKING WITH ONLY 1ST GEN BECAUSE ITS NO LONGER POPULAR AS IT WAS BEFORE, THEY NEED NEW STUFF TO SELL!!

God thats it proving ur post was biased is the 1st thing im doing returning from college, any sane person like circus can see its all opinion...
 

Circus

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you say they are different franchises and then you say they are part of the mario universe, you contradict yourself and you don't know it.
"Universe" and "franchise" are not the same thing. They are all apart of the same universe, but they have games that do not involve each other. I did not contradict myself.

link appeared in soul calibur so is he part of the soul calibur universe, the answer to which is no
Nope. In SC2, Link was TAKEN from his own universe (the universe that the Zelda series takes place in) due to some rift in space or some crap like that. That game actually specifically acknowledges the fact that he's from a different universe.
 

_the_sandman_

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Dude STFU and GTFO! WE all have the right to our opinion dude, and stop being a mother f***ing jerk already.

And for all you morons, Pokemon D/P is already the #1 selling DS game, so ha! It's expected to outsell all other Pokemon games by a huge margin, and could very well be the best selling game since Donkey Kong Country.
There are different kinds of opinions. Some of them are just plain bad. I mean Styks opinion is that Squirtle isn't playable. I can't help but laugh at his opinion.

People bash my opinions about Slippy and Petey. But I still provide faith and evidence towards those characters. Just like you and WW Link. WW Link to me seems like a terrible idea because he is just a Link ripoff and he would make Link worse by taking some of his attacks. But I'm sure you could believe in yourself and say he is a good character for Brawl.
 

The_Corax_King

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you say they are different franchises and then you say they are part of the mario universe, you contradict yourself and you don't know it. link appeared in soul calibur so is he part of the soul calibur universe, the answer to which is no
That is the biggest stretch and the most invalid argument I have ever heard...

Link was simply a guest character... was already so established as his own series before SC...

Mario and Yoshi were born from Mario... Link was not born in SC...


Especially since Wario and Yoshi appear in more Mario games than Yoshi/Wario games...


For the last ****ing time:


Just because they are part of the Mario universe does NOT mean that they can't have their own franchises! You can't consider them totally independent characters...
 

Circus

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Listen, there can't be more Pokeballs than Mushrooms. It really WOULD NOT make any sense. Mario is the biggest thing to Nintendo. So read these words carefully, "There cannot be more Pokeballs than Mushrooms".
Because you say so? True enough, the Mario universe should probably have the most reps, but that doesn't mean they all need a Mushroom icon. Wario and Yoshi in particular are well known for their positions in the Mario universe, even if Wario has now done a successful job of branching out. His origins are widely known, and they should be acknowledged.
 

ClarkJables

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yes, but you can't consider them part of the mario team as far as smash goes. if this were any other argument i might be inclined to agree with you, but in smash they are repping their own series, not their own universe, and that is where you are wrong, because smash is its own universe where all of these characters come together, therefor whatever universe they come from doesn't matter, they aren't even the real characters anyway they are trophies. and you can most definitely consider wario a totally independant character. he has character that only appear in his games, and he lives in his own universe, it may be a neighboring universe as i stated before but it is not the same universe by any means. the same solar system or whatever is bigger than a universe hell yes, but not one big universe. and party/kart/ and sports games don't count. they aren't cannonical to the main adventure series of each character, they are just nice little side games that let us play mario against diddy kong


and circus wario is mostly remembered for his games, not for staring in one or two mario adventure games. your saying his origins should be aknoladged but you skip over the rest of his carrear by syaing that
 

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There are different kinds of opinions. Some of them are just plain bad. I mean Styks opinion is that Squirtle isn't playable. I can't help but laugh at his opinion.

People bash my opinions about Slippy and Petey. But I still provide faith and evidence towards those characters. Just like you and WW Link. WW Link to me seems like a terrible idea because he is just a Link ripoff and he would make Link worse by taking some of his attacks. But I'm sure you could believe in yourself and say he is a good character for Brawl.
Fine, go after WW Link. Proof he deserves to be in Brawl:

1.Wind Waker was the #4 best selling GCN game. That comes in as the #1 best selling game without Mario. It sold over 3 million units.

2.Phantom Hourglass is the 2nd or 3rd best selling Zelda game in Japan. It has sold about 600,000 or 700,000 units in 3 weeks, and it's only out in JAPAN!

3.Unlike Majora's Mask [which sorta flopped and sold 4 million units], it continues to sell like OOT, the best selling Zelda game of all-time, selling 8 million units. So I predict [and so do big gaming media outlets] that PH will sell about 6 or 7 million units.

4.6 or 7 million + 3 million units=9 or 10 million units. And there could still very well be a 3rd part from wat I've read on it. That's more than every series repped in SSB, minus Metroid, Donkey Kong, tLOZ, Pokemon, and Mario.

5.You've never played WW obviously. He could use the Deku Leaf, Grapple Hook, Hookshot, Skull Hammer, Wind Waker, etc. etc. etc. ADD the PH weapons, and that just makes it better! :)

6.All the Links in the series attack exactly the same. Only a few stick out: Four Swords Link is the same, but 4 Links. TP Link has 7 special skills. But WW/PH Link is unique, almost all of his sword slashing techniques are unique. The combat system in WW is the most unique, WW Link can do flips, helm cutter, spin around his foes, etc. EVery sword swing is almost completely original, minus a few of Link's signature moves.

7.He could be a clone, Luigified clone, or original character.

8.Don't even bring up cel-shaded characters, I have 20 points for that that could prove you wrong! ;)

So ya, beat that!

And Stryks opinions are logical, and he has shown logic behind them. All you've done is bash and bash. You've bashed everyone who disagrees, hates the idea of Squirtle, or likes Lucario. BTW, who cares if you were right=??? Seriously, you thought of Squirtle as it's own character on it's own so technically you are wrong anyways. And Petey Piranha...please, three minor boss fights means squat. It's a intresting character, just not valueable=as valueable as Dongodongos. And Slippy is the most hated Star Fox character [probably], so I don't see him making it, other than a cameo, trophy, or AT appearance.
 

Circus

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yes, but you can't consider them part of the mario team as far as smash goes. if this were any other argument i might be inclined to agree with you, but in smash they are repping their own series, not their own universe, and that is where you are wrong, because smash is its own universe where all of these characters come together, therefor whatever universe they come from doesn't matter, they aren't even the real characters anyway they are trophies. and you can most definitely consider wario a totally independant character. he has character that only appear in his games, and he lives in his own universe, it may be a neighboring universe as i stated before but it is not the same universe by any means. the same solar system or whatever is bigger than a universe hell yes, but not one big universe. and party/kart/ and sports games don't count. they aren't cannonical to the main adventure series of each character, they are just nice little side games that let us play mario against diddy kong
You have a point there, but getting back to the reason for all this Mario talk, this still means nothing in relation to Pokemon for one simple reason—we don't know all the characters in Brawl.

For all we know, there could be 10 Mario universe newcomers in Brawl. Maybe Petey WILL be in. Maybe Toad, maybe Boo, maybe Fawful, maybe Bowser jr, maybe a ****ing BLOOPER. We don't know. I still consider Yoshi and Wario at least partial Mario characters. (1/2 a Mario character each, if you will), but even if you don't, it doesn't disprove the argument.

SEVERAL pokemon could be playable in Brawl, and SEVERAL more Mario characters could be playable in Brawl.
 

ClarkJables

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regular link has a hookshot and can do flips during combat, also young link is pretty **** original, he has chicken jump, slingshot, deku nut, deku stick, and the ocarana



i agree with you on everything except half a mario. yoshi can be half but wario is 1/20th of a mario character
 

Circus

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and circus wario is mostly remembered for his games, not for staring in one or two mario adventure games.
Says who? I know of him MUCH more in the sense of being Mario's rival than anything else.

your saying his origins should be aknoladged but you skip over the rest of his carrear by syaing that
I do not. For the fifth time, I consider him a PARTIAL Mario character, due to his roots. I still ackowledge the fact that he's made himself a nice solo career—I've actually said that many times now. I have not once said that he was JUST a Mario character. I've been trying to make that very clear, but you still use it against me.
 
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