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The metagame of snake

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napZzz

Smash Hero
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Recently I've been wondering, how much better can snake possibly get? Thinking about where he stands now compared to other characters, and how he's holding up.

Honestly, I dont think snake is gonna get any better than he is now and that other characters have far more potential and should already be considered better or are close to topping him. Snake seems over rated in what he can do but he's just a simple character who relies on gimmicks who's inconsistent because he's a rather "bull****" character in a sense, who can do some extremely ridiculous things in a good way, but get torn apart from heavy weakness's at other times.

What does everyone else think of snakes stance now and in the future?
 

Underload

Lazy
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The Snake players here are lazy. Havok and Ally are the only two people who have thought of brilliant things with Snake recently. There needs to be more research and messing around done with Snake, but there's nobody up to the challenge. Snake still has a lot of potential in bettering his recovery and in taking advantage of grabs / releases.
 

napZzz

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The Snake players here are lazy. Havok and Ally are the only two people who have thought of brilliant things with Snake recently. There needs to be more research and messing around done with Snake, but there's nobody up to the challenge. Snake still has a lot of potential in bettering his recovery and in taking advantage of grabs / releases.
Honestly, I feel all you can do to improve at this point aside from creating gimmicky setups you can risk is to just up your prediction and spacing or something and overall abilities as a player. I dont see what there is to better his recover, you always need to recover high and you only have so many options to avoid being juggled.

I feel like the GR he has on mk is somewhat impractical because if I recall the timing for it is really tight, similar to marths GR-dair on mk. He can boost pivot grab for another grab and a bit more pummel damage though, it could be useful for just a little more percent if people do it I guess

Ally says he doesn't practice, I dont wanna be a ****, but I think he does, every big tourney he comes to theres always new tricks he brings with him and a sense of improvement. That doesn't happen with occasional tournaments

Does havok even play snake in tournaments? Or has been lately? I'm curious as to see how he's gonna do because he seems like he wants to do things with snake and is a smart player
 
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I am with Nappy on this regarding Snake's potiential. I worked with SuSa regarding grabs and releases. Trust me, there is not a whole lot room for improvement that I can see from that area. I am not really sure what you mean to take advantage of, but from all the testing I did and helped out on, there simply is not enough concrete merit in the uses of releases. First off, Snake can really only 100% combo his attacks into air releases on ~11 people (I forget the exact number). Of even that number, most are only comboed by DACUS or dash attack. What advantage is there in that when you could easily get more damage through a tech chase? The only advantage to a grab -> dash attack for the most part is that it could kill people if they ever got to high enough percents and it could be a 100% method to kill them. But the kill percentage is too high for it to me more practical. The rest are merely match-up advantages that we can take advantage on in the rare case. Which is basically Falco, Ness, Lucas and Wario for the most part. In every other case, the releases are outperformed by the idea of techchases.

Unless you are referring to techchases from grabs, then I agree with you UL wholeheartedly. I believe the ability for Snake to decimate the opponent through tech chases has been there forever, but no one has ever had the skill enough to follow through on it. Me and SuSa, along with a number of others found that there are a number of characters who is should be fairly easy to tech chase due to the size of their rolls. A number of characters appear to be impossible to techchase unless you get the read right. Mostly because the speed at which they roll along with the distance makes it difficult to do on reaction. Wario, Lucario, Snake, etc. were examples of this. I believe it was even impossible to regrab Snake's forward roll even if you predicted it because it was so long. (Although, it was never 100% confirmed, but everything pointed that way). But anyway, the potiential with the techchase is certainly untapped to its fullest since it could potiential affect probably over half the cast with the right amount of effort put in.

In other regards, I do not think Snake has any room for improvement. He has great tools as it is, but they are all related to how well the human player can utilize them. So, an unprecedeted tech or overall strategy is not likely to ever happen anymore. It will all boil down to who is in essence a great player enough to apply Snake's tools in the right way given the scenario. But, that is all related to player skill, not character development in my opinion.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
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Ally says he doesn't practice, I dont wanna be a ****, but I think he does, every big tourney he comes to theres always new tricks he brings with him and a sense of improvement. That doesn't happen with occasional tournaments
Attending a tournament virtually every week is more than enough to stay in practice and he probably just thinks of new things outside of the game.
 

RATED

Smash Lord
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Snake has a lot with him seriously, is just that to get "good or top lvl play" it takes lots of experience regarding every aspect of the game. Snake has the tools to be a really useful character. The grenades can be used in more ways and not only to camp with them. The projectiles has different uses depending the matchups. Snake can cover his tilts or some moves with his grenades or with the mine(down smash) so that they couldnt get punished easily. Snake's Bair is stupidly great it works in a lot of stuff and is a kill move, SDIng out of a move and bair right away, lots of stuff seriously. Obviously Snake's tech chase game is one of the best aspects of his game at least a down throw, following up and Ftilt right away are like 32% to the opponent and also the opportunity to get an "explosive" out if the opponents is at mid % and he can do even more with the down throw.
 
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I am with Nappy on this regarding Snake's potiential. I worked with SuSa regarding grabs and releases. Trust me, there is not a whole lot room for improvement that I can see from that area. I am not really sure what you mean to take advantage of, but from all the testing I did and helped out on, there simply is not enough concrete merit in the uses of releases. First off, Snake can really only 100% combo his attacks into air releases on ~11 people (I forget the exact number). Of even that number, most are only comboed by DACUS or dash attack. What advantage is there in that when you could easily get more damage through a tech chase? The only advantage to a grab -> dash attack for the most part is that it could kill people if they ever got to high enough percents and it could be a 100% method to kill them. But the kill percentage is too high for it to me more practical. The rest are merely match-up advantages that we can take advantage on in the rare case. Which is basically Falco, Ness, Lucas and Wario for the most part. In every other case, the releases are outperformed by the idea of techchases.

Unless you are referring to techchases from grabs, then I agree with you UL wholeheartedly. I believe the ability for Snake to decimate the opponent through tech chases has been there forever, but no one has ever had the skill enough to follow through on it. Me and SuSa, along with a number of others found that there are a number of characters who is should be fairly easy to tech chase due to the size of their rolls. A number of characters appear to be impossible to techchase unless you get the read right. Mostly because the speed at which they roll along with the distance makes it difficult to do on reaction. Wario, Lucario, Snake, etc. were examples of this. I believe it was even impossible to regrab Snake's forward roll even if you predicted it because it was so long. (Although, it was never 100% confirmed, but everything pointed that way). But anyway, the potiential with the techchase is certainly untapped to its fullest since it could potiential affect probably over half the cast with the right amount of effort put in.

In other regards, I do not think Snake has any room for improvement. He has great tools as it is, but they are all related to how well the human player can utilize them. So, an unprecedeted tech or overall strategy is not likely to ever happen anymore. It will all boil down to who is in essence a great player enough to apply Snake's tools in the right way given the scenario. But, that is all related to player skill, not character development in my opinion.
I'm with Xeylode.

Snake's skill depends on the player's utility.

The only thing techs do is make Snake's strategies better or worse.


I'm not yet done with the crouch list x_x

I'm using the layout over here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177267

Did anyone make a crouch list already?
 

Sake-Hato

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snake has room for improvement,ive done it and seen it b4 but its alot simplar than you guys think,i wont give all of my tactics out but heres one.

ever thought of reverse up smashes? its handy for running away from alot of things,If mk tornado for example if you run and do a reverse up smash itll brake mks nado and you have the advantage to set up...

i could talk about more things but i dont wanna give out too mutch stuff.its the smaller things that snake can do that no one has ever tried to put in there game yet..
 

Sake-Hato

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oh and as for the teir list i can only see snake going down hill he wont keep his 2nd spot forever :(
diddy will take over and pass him and so will falco mabye even wariio
 
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I think he'll keep his position imo

Snake doesn't have room for improvement, but he's the type of character who is dependent on the player's utilization.

There are lots of tactics for Snake, it's just that the snakes don't share it.
 

6Mizu

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I think Snake has a a good amount of potential left. It's just that none of us Snakes do much to make his meta-game better. We need to get our "hands dirty", try thing we've never done before (mostly in friendlies), and research things. I'm not sure how to start though.


The Snake players here are lazy. Havok and Ally are the only two people who have thought of brilliant things with Snake recently. There needs to be more research and messing around done with Snake, but there's nobody up to the challenge. Snake still has a lot of potential in bettering his recovery and in taking advantage of grabs / releases.
I can research crap. I enjoy it. I have frame-by-frame hacks and crap. I can do w/e you guys want me to try (kinda). Would you like me to do our frame adv for all of our moves?
 

TwentyTwo

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Snake is Snake, and he's going to be the character he's always been. He asks for creativity with his grenades and mine placements, and that by itself is a journey to master. New techs? I don't particularly think any character is just finding techs every day making them more amazing by the day.

Sure you can make a mistake and get your *** torn up for it, but you live to like 170% on average, and you can kill everyone else at like 100%. It takes them a good amount of stuff to kill you and get you up there, it takes you 5-6 good hits to get them in kill percentage, barring gimps and such. Does snake really outright win any matchup? A few, but most matchups that matter he just trades damage and wins out because he lives longer and kills earlier.

And while he might not be second best in the game he's not moving out of the top 5, because he still has one of the better matchups with MK, and no unwinnables.
 

Limeee

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etecoon, nothing has frame advantage in this game. (assuming your talking about shields)

except for falcos silent laser, it has frame adv +3 IIRC
 

etecoon

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etecoon, nothing has frame advantage in this game. (assuming your talking about shields)
depends on the opponent and their OoS options, there's quite a few things that snake literally can not punish for instance
 

AfroQT

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You act like other characters have some type of huge potential.
Grenades are ridiculously deep, they arent gimicks, they are an advanced projectile, the traps you can set up with them have no limits, and at no point do the truly good traps become "ineffective".

C4 placement is still ridiculous as well, you can use it to checkmate so many chars will edgeguards, off my head i think of d3 instantly.

I don't see how you can say Snake isnt deep. Especially when comparingh im to characters like...dedede? Falco? Ice Climbers?
 

Blacknight99923

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Yeah, I think Havok goes all Snake nowadays.
he went marth against choice I believe


and I think the direction snake will be headed will be using nades more similarly to that of souther. And being able to start getting entire stocks off from techases on characters like olimar

lucas nair has no lag (literally) but its range is crap so he ends up getting punished/not hitting.

Marth FF fair actually gives you an advantage(like a 2 frame window) but it doesn't give him safety, he literally plays a rock paper sissors game with you
 

AvoiD

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Quivo is asian.

gg raepd.

And Snake isn't getting any better then he already is now, thats it. What else is there to talk about, previous stuff we've discussed before? From the likes of it, its getting us no where, but I think we should at least try to incorporate every small, useful AT/tech/anything that Snake can work with, and find out about more options Snake can have during competitive play.

In example, naners, see if we can get a guranteed anything out of it? Or wavebouncing/b-reversal/fast falling b reversals/0-lag nade hold, basically anything thats small that could possibly end up into something big.

Its late, half of what I posted prob makes zero sense. iight.
 
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During the summer, notions of time are abolished. Kids flock under the sun and moon equally. So, it makes perfect sense. I find it ironic that we might have possibly maxed out the brawl metagame only slightly over a year of it comig out.
 

AllyKnight

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At low % (0-12%) do fthrow to a downsmash to a footstool to a c4 to a footstool to a bair or any aerial, works better on big chars, ive pulled it a few times but I doubt they've been recorded.

does 50-65% (the c4 has to be next to the dsmash
 

QUIVO

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How is that ****? Roflmao, lrn2rape. You just mad cause I'm stylin on you and your silly Houston crowd. and btw, there's always room for improvement. Gotta Inade son.
 

napZzz

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You act like other characters have some type of huge potential.
Grenades are ridiculously deep, they arent gimicks, they are an advanced projectile, the traps you can set up with them have no limits, and at no point do the truly good traps become "ineffective".

C4 placement is still ridiculous as well, you can use it to checkmate so many chars will edgeguards, off my head i think of d3 instantly.

I don't see how you can say Snake isnt deep. Especially when comparingh im to characters like...dedede? Falco? Ice Climbers?
stating snakes better characters doesn't mean he's got potential. Neither does saying he's deep mean he does. Act elitist and disagree with everything you see on these boards if you want, but you aren't always going to be right afro.

I was thinking of the other top tiers in mind when I wrote this. Diddy still has a plethora of undiscovered tricks and things people are figuring out still to improve him and his already solid game (like snake has as well), IC's can only get better as all the ic mains figure out/master all the desynchs and cg's, I'm not sure where you can go with falco but I feel like aside from mk he's probably the best character right now

I forgot who the other top tier is and I dont care, but anything practical with snake is already seen and you can only go so far with tilts and nades.

Snake was played alot at the release of brawl and still for awhie so on and there hasn't bee as much rep for other characters until lately where other people have been randomly stepping up to show what their character can do and more. Snakes already been through this and more. I'm not trying to be negative and deem snake "Bad" or something by any means, this was just something I thought would be interesting to discuss.
 

QUIVO

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I'm not trolling. You're only putting a limit on yourself and your character. I thought TL was done with ATs, but we occasionally find new stuff.

Average player will stay average with your scrub mindset. This games only been out ike.. 2 years?
 

napZzz

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I didn't post this with the intent of trying to stop people from going anywhere with snake, nor do I intend to stop either. I still practice and try to make this character the best I can, but I just posted my thoughts on it to see what other people were thinking. You cant misinterpret things like this so easily.
 
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blahblahblahblahblahblah
blahblahblahblahblahblah
I'm not sure where you can go with falco but I feel like aside from mk he's probably the best character right now
blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blahIobject! blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah
That's right, Falco is certainly second best! You hear that yume? :cool:

3,333rd post

average troll
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Status = Senior Average Troll (Even though I am younger than you by like 3 months)

But snake has grenades.
And that is the problem. He dosn't really have much else. Look at the thing Ran did to Ally. He broke him down and basically showed us how many stupid grenades Snake uses. Falco has a similar problem too.
 

QUIVO

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Snake also has:

-Ridiculous weight so he lives forever
-A solid recovery
-Great kill moves
-Great range/speed of his tilts/jab
-Excelent stage control
 

-Ran

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Snake's main issue, will always remain no matter how much the metagame changes. Snake has a very limited range of attack vectors that he is capable of taking. There's very little subterfuge in how Snake is spacing his moves. Yes, there are grenade tricks to stall out grenades, but I'm not referencing it. As a character, Snake is incredibly linear in his movement and retaliation. He has blind spots that nimble characters can get in with their projectiles, and the linearity is also evident in his recovery.

Snake when under pressure is predictable. He cannot avoid damage quickly enough through movement, and so instead of repositioning for damage/stage control, Snake tends to attempt to expel his opponent from his zone. Or at least, attempt to.
 

QUIVO

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Yea, but you guys should just Idrop your nades when you're underpressure.

NVM, i just remembered that snakes nades don't work the same. You can pull one out and drop it the same way TL can midair.
 
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