The metagame of snake

[iFudge]

i would say nikita and more nade tricks. culd be discovered

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i would say nikita and more nade tricks. culd be discovered

Nikita is an impossibility for the most part. The start-up and ending lag is too large for it to ever be used effectively. The number of situations needed for nikita to work in is greatly reduced because of those weaknesses. Even the situations where nikita could safely be used is questionable. Anytime I throw someone offstage I can get a missle off, but would not it have been better to simply mortar slide closer to the edge and start setting up things such as a mine, C4, etc?

No, it's too hard to even find any normal situations in which nikita is clearly a superior option, let alone that it might make a big impact upon his metagame in anyway except perhaps a few match-ups.

Grenades are the best possibility.

 

[AfroQT]

stating snakes better characters doesn't mean he's got potential. Neither does saying he's deep mean he does. Act elitist and disagree with everything you see on these boards if you want, but you aren't always going to be right afro.

I was thinking of the other top tiers in mind when I wrote this. Diddy still has a plethora of undiscovered tricks and things people are figuring out still to improve him and his already solid game (like snake has as well), IC's can only get better as all the ic mains figure out/master all the desynchs and cg's, I'm not sure where you can go with falco but I feel like aside from mk he's probably the best character right now

I forgot who the other top tier is and I dont care, but anything practical with snake is already seen and you can only go so far with tilts and nades.

Snake was played alot at the release of brawl and still for awhie so on and there hasn't bee as much rep for other characters until lately where other people have been randomly stepping up to show what their character can do and more. Snakes already been through this and more. I'm not trying to be negative and deem snake "Bad" or something by any means, this was just something I thought would be interesting to discuss.

I don't act elitist, i just pretty much disregard people who do not think when they post. How can you even come CLOSE to saying falco is the best character man are you serious. What state do you live in, its so hard for me to take you serious when you say things like this.

Pretty much, stop maining Snake. If you don't see the USE of grenades, then there is no reason for you to main him. Grenades are infinitely deep, and can be used to make ANY situation better, to make any approach better, to add that extra oomph to any read. No amount of desynching and chaingrabbing is going to help ice climbers land a grab on a snake with a good grenade game. If your grenade game is stagnant and unchanging, then your snake is stagnant and unchanging, which would lead to the whole "how much potential does snake have" post.

Snake when under pressure is predictable. He cannot avoid damage quickly enough through movement, and so instead of repositioning for damage/stage control, Snake tends to attempt to expel his opponent from his zone. Or at least, attempt to.

Im confused, there are few characters who (while under pressure) have amazing options. Snake, at any time, can use grenades to pretty much nullify approaches, theres like...2 characters who can almost completley ignore his grenade game. Maybe you should relook at these situations instead of deeming Snake "predictable" in them.

IN CONCLUSION:
Snake mains are supposed to be men.
You *****s act like *****es.
Go main jigglypuff or something, or a pokemon or some type of feminine female ****** character.
I want to see "SNAKE IS A MAN, LET US FORWARD TILT IN UNISON TOGETHER" threads. Not "sniffle...snake sucks man...everyone can learn him easily...sniffle" what the ****.

 

[QUIVO]

****, afro for prez. Dude must have hair on his chest

 

[napZzz]

afro, the only reason I main snake is because of nades lol. I'm not denying how good they are, but at the same time I dont think they're the best thing in the game. I do think you over exaggerate a bit though on how useful they are, but nades sort of make snake what he is....his other assets just fit well with what he has

I said you sound like an elitist because generally when you post you look down upon whatever you're quoting and the topic, I live in minnesota, but I travel around the midwest when I can and i'm gonna try to go to apex <_<

 

[AfroQT]

afro, the only reason I main snake is because of nades lol. I'm not denying how good they are, but at the same time I dont think they're the best thing in the game. I do think you over exaggerate a bit though on how useful they are, but nades sort of make snake what he is....his other assets just fit well with what he has

I said you sound like an elitist because generally when you post you look down upon whatever you're quoting and the topic, I live in minnesota, but I travel around the midwest when I can and i'm gonna try to go to apex <_<

I don't want anyone to think im talking down to them, i may seem elitist, but i NEVER ignore people based off SKILL, or RANK or PLACINGS or w/e. However, if ignoring people who just post random, logicless posts makes me an elitist, then **** i am one.

All im saying is, grenades are really really good. I honestly think they are far and beyond the "best" projectile in the game. Not in the sense that they beat every OTHER projectile in a projectile war, but in the sheer usefulness of them. You can learn a falco's laser game, or how to avoid Yoshi's eggs (i cant sadface), but you never TRULY learn how to deal with grenades. If the snake player stays fresh, his grenades stay fresh.

Real money talk let dat lil money walk.

 

[Attila_]

Snake's main issue, will always remain no matter how much the metagame changes. Snake has a very limited range of attack vectors that he is capable of taking. There's very little subterfuge in how Snake is spacing his moves. Yes, there are grenade tricks to stall out grenades, but I'm not referencing it. As a character, Snake is incredibly linear in his movement and retaliation. He has blind spots that nimble characters can get in with their projectiles, and the linearity is also evident in his recovery.

Snake when under pressure is predictable. He cannot avoid damage quickly enough through movement, and so instead of repositioning for damage/stage control, Snake tends to attempt to expel his opponent from his zone. Or at least, attempt to.

i more so think snake lacks oos and ledge options, and these really hurt his game. but i dont think there's anything left to discover here; just stay out of your shield and dont go on the ledge lol

@afro: if you think nades are better than bananas, you mad.

 

[napZzz]

I dunno, nades are pretty good in most situations but bananas let diddy do so much ****, if you were to count the projectiles seperately on their own nades would be better, since diddy has all the tools to abuse them to make them as good as they are.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Does anyone else think it's funny when someone says, "There's so much to discover about [insert character], but there is nothing to discover about [other character]"? How do you know something's there if you haven't found it yet?

I think everyone here is also obsessing over ATs and tricks, when the key to advancing Snake is through strategy. Noone likes that idea because it isn't concrete, there are no numbers so you can't quantize it. So maybe he doesn't have any ATs left (which I don't believe), why is that the only thing that's gonna save him?

 

[napZzz]

I'm not talking about snakes AT's. To put it simply, most of snakes damage is going to come from either tilts, grabs, or nades, and thats all there is to it unless you can sneak some other things in (which obviously is going to happen). The lack of an aerial approach kind of worries me as to how he'll be able to keep up, but he's been fine so far with his stupid tilts and ability to keep people out.

I just wonder if he can only go up from here or not playstyle wise

 

[Attila_]

i personally have been using aerials a lot more recently; i think theyre better than we give them credit for. sh dair oos is our faster oos option, and bair/uair have stupid hitboxes and power. nair people on platforms. they are actually pretty good; pity we cant approach with any.

im also getting better at trapping people with nades deliberately, which i think has boosted my personal game somewhat. thing is, i dont think this is something you can practice or teach someone; its all in your own head

 

[etecoon]

i personally have been using aerials a lot more recently; i think theyre better than we give them credit for. sh dair oos is our faster oos option

it's unsafe on hit, especially if snake has to move at all during it(going to frequently be the case if your opponent spaces at all). a lot of snake's bull **** is like this, stuff that shouldn't work but does because mastering the snake MU takes a lot of work. like people always say that trading damage is good for snake because of his weight class but what about a better aerial character like marth who can hit him, DI the explosion to stay near him, and hit snake again before he can do anything. that's not a trade, snake is taking 3x as much damage and being put back in a bad position, is that beneficial to snake? in some cases MK can get a free tornado or nair out of this and snake ends up with nearly 4x as much damage. wario can fart on you during this time even depending on what his charge level is. dash attack is unsafe on hit at low-mid%, jab is unsafe on hit vs many characters, grenade camping is pretty porous compared to other higher tiers' defenses like falco or diddy IMO...I really think snake is a pretty limited character the more you learn about him, I mean he's definitely good...but second best? not so sure about that, looking at his tools I don't see where he has to go but downward really, he relies excessively on opponents being ignorant or executing poorly

 

[RATED]

srsly people instead of "oh we have this flaws and these flaws AND MORE FLAWS!" shall you think on " how to overcome those so called flaws"

is just that people limit themselves to "what people says is good to use or not" instead of trying things by themselves.

======================

and to most post here:

 

[Attila_]

consider dairs shieldbreaking potential (espc when holding a nade), and the fact that you can push people off platforms/stage and hit with the last hit with it, and its not that bad. i mean, dont use it often. but once or twice in a match is by no means a bad thing.

his other aerials are good too; i think everyone should use them more.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Snake's aerials are too situational to be considered good as a whole. I mean they all serve their uses though. I mean Nair is pretty limited to just using it to wall people and that doesn't work against a great of people to begin with. Its one of those moves you use sparingly unless its actually going to keep people out of your face and even if you hit, it can still be DIed out of. I usually only bother with getting the last hit. I think its cool it auto canceled though.

Uair is super limited. I have gotten away with using it just before I hit the ground as a weird mixup. Other than that I only use it when I know I cant be punished by someone above me or when I grab-release Wario. Which is kinda often since I live in the midwest.

Bair is pretty limited as well. I only find use from this after a Grab Release on Wario (lol once again) or just for the kill. But I rarely use it since its best used as a surprise. I try to "Ally" the move.

Dair is pretty cool I think I could use this move a little more as a mixup. Its also pretty decent at deterring aerial approaches depending on who youre fighting. I think I would benefit from use the ledge hopped version more. Its good pressure if used right.

Lol Fair. Hitting with it is so hard. I like the small boost you get from it. It can throw people off when you use it returning off the stage but its so hard to use. Mindgames, son.

They have uses but so limited as a whole. <_<

 

[Justin Wiles]

Remember when PC Chris was using Snake and Double Jump Nair was like, his bread and butter?

Do people reliably DI out of it, though? I know you can easily, but does it happen often? I think Nair has potential as an aggressive move, especially when your opponent is on a platform.

Bair and Uair are too quick to dismiss. We haven't found good use for these moves yet. Especially Uair, it doesn't have terrible priority and you can keep some cast members up in the air with it easily.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Remember when PC Chris was using Snake and Double Jump Nair was like, his bread and butter?

Do people reliably DI out of it, though? I know you can easily, but does it happen often? I think Nair has potential as an aggressive move, especially when your opponent is on a platform.

Bair and Uair are too quick to dismiss. We haven't found good use for these moves yet. Especially Uair, it doesn't have terrible priority and you can keep some cast members up in the air with it easily.

Assuming we talk about a higher level of metagame here most people don't have an issue DI'ing out of neutral air before the final hit connects and it can be punished. We have a million Snakes in my state and everyone knows the matchup pretty well by now. I just don't see the move being that effective while used aggresively. I think all of his aerials are meant to be used selectively. Nair seems intimidating but really that's a lot more threatening aerials.

And Uair and Bair are so linear is all. I mean how often do you see Uair used. Like I said Ive used it for some fun mixups (moreso while landing) but thats about it. Snake isnt great in the air. Its not like our Uair is as quick as Metaknights or anything. Its somewhat telegraphed to begin with. Bair is almost the exact the same concept its just more likely to use. I mean you can use them when youve landed a C4 and youre predicted the trajectory (which is ****ing fun) but how often will you land these on a good opponent without conditioning them?

I kinda agree that Snake's aerial game may be able to develop but its not going to be anything groundbreaking.

Snake is not the 2nd best character in this game anymore. <_<

 

[-Ran]

Snake as a character moves very linear. Everything he does is easy to plot out for your opponent, from recovery to attack vectors. The only thing that can alter this, is through the careful use of your traps and grenades. Furthermore, outside of grenades, Snake struggles to keep constant hitboxes out on the stage, especially when on the move. Most characters, have a means of covering their body with a quick aerial, or a projectile that advances them forwards/backwards. Snake doesn't have this, which is one of the major problems of the character.

Snake operates the best when you can read your opponent, or they are using a character that is prone to punishment. Obviously, if your opponent makes mistakes Snake is one of the best in terms of consistent damage output at any percent, but we can't rely on people self-destructing to win a match.

 

[Limeee]

m2k never DI's out of allys dair for some reason

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Snake simply put is a Punisher. That is what he is meant to do. His grenades and traps supplement and support this style of play and force people into bad positions making it easier to read. It's so simple its just he is what you make of him. Glaring weaknesses like his can be overcome but you have to be diligent. It's so simple lol

And I have to agree with Afro on the Falco thing. Is he a good character? Yes. Is he better than Snake? Highly doubt it. How much has his metgame developed over the past few years? Not a great deal. There were so many tricks found but and they do help but most of them aren't core Falco strategems.

BDacus helps with getting the kill but its nothing ground breaking. Its still just a sliding Up-Smash and that's the most recent thing they've found. Falco's two major weaknesses hold him back too much to warrant him being 2nd. Or even 3rd for that matter. Being able to actually get the kill and not die early due to gimps play a BIG factor in many matchups. And with weaknesses like that it would take something ground breaking for Falco to climb over Snake.

I can't believe how many Snakes think we're at a disadvantage vs Falco. Its a super annoying matchup (probably my most hated one) but its not that bad. Most Snakes just don't have the experience because of the severe lack of placing Falcos across the map. Midwest especially.

 

[OverLade]

If the snake player stays fresh, his grenades stay fresh.

Real money talk let dat lil money walk.

Greatest Snake based quote ever.

 

[AfroQT]

Snake simply put is a Punisher. That is what he is meant to do. His grenades and traps supplement and support this style of play and force people into bad positions making it easier to read. It's so simple its just he is what you make of him. Glaring weaknesses like his can be overcome but you have to be diligent. It's so simple lol

And I have to agree with Afro on the Falco thing. Is he a good character? Yes. Is he better than Snake? Highly doubt it. How much has his metgame developed over the past few years? Not a great deal. There were so many tricks found but and they do help but most of them aren't core Falco strategems.

BDacus helps with getting the kill but its nothing ground breaking. Its still just a sliding Up-Smash and that's the most recent thing they've found. Falco's two major weaknesses hold him back too much to warrant him being 2nd. Or even 3rd for that matter. Being able to actually get the kill and not die early due to gimps play a BIG factor in many matchups. And with weaknesses like that it would take something ground breaking for Falco to climb over Snake.

I can't believe how many Snakes think we're at a disadvantage vs Falco. Its a super annoying matchup (probably my most hated one) but its not that bad. Most Snakes just don't have the experience because of the severe lack of placing Falcos across the map. Midwest especially.

Haha snake destroys falco its not even fair.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think at best that matchup is 55-45 for us. If you destroy Falco...teach me <_<

 

[Limeee]

i suck against falco, i don't know what to do under pressure of lasers D:

should i just crawl towards and dtilt the phantasm?

 

[OverLade]

Haha snake destroys falco its not even fair.

That's a crazy overstatement. Blowing yourself up gives you an edge but seeing it's not even fair is an exaggeration...

 

[napZzz]

Haha snake destroys falco its not even fair.

are you being serious? This is at best even, maybe snakes slight disadvantage.

Between lasers and reflectors (hell just shielding) falco outcamps snake easily, he also juggles him well in the air, but can struggle on the ground if he messes up and wel....snake lives long and falco doesn't

thats a short summary but, I see no way that he "destroys" falco

 

[Underload]

falco outcamps snake easily, he also juggles him well in the airo

Now for a more serious reason:

This thread's just becoming a back and forth argument of 'Snake is good' and 'No he isn't'. Starting to get a tiny bit flame-y, too.