The Metagame Discussion Thread

[The Real Gamer]

I'm starting to get annoyed with the constant stream of lead Uxies that I'm running into. I don't want to change around my teams just to deal with that thing. :|

 

[Fuelbi]

I'm starting to get annoyed with the constant stream of lead Uxies that I'm running into. I don't want to change around my teams just to deal with that thing. :|

It's easy to predict what they'll do

They'll always start off with Taunt and then use Stealth Rocks and then fit in any other attack, then it dies

 

[ss118]

That's Azelf. Uxie is more troubling because unless you predict it perfectly it will likely trick something random with a Scarf and then paralyze something else/ put something to sleep. It will also get up SR regardless of what lead you run if it so desires(it can beat electrode with scarf), and is bulky enough to do all of this while scouting team members with U-Turn or just attacking straight-up with psychic.

 

[Charmander]

Latias, then salamence? Heatrans up next, Im callin it.

 

[Wave⁂]

I love Uxie. Stealth Rock / U-Turn / fillers is really quite good when you pair it with Scizor or ScarfTar, since Aerodactyl and Azelf will be Taunting you.

I miss the Shoddy Battle bug where Magic Coat reflected Taunt.

 

[Riddle]

That sounds amazingly epic. Muk aerodactyl all day

 

[ss118]

or you could run trick + U-turn

if they taunt it's basically do w/e the hell you want

 

[Sunnysunny]

Wait what? Both mence and latias are in uber? O_o
I don't get this. Doesn't rayquaze completely outclass salamence, and latios outclass latias? Why'd they throw em in uber?

 

[ss118]

OK I want to get this straight.

OU and UU are the standard tiers based on usage. They have a cut-off point for OU where a pokemon is considered "overused", hence the abbreviation. Everything else is "underused", and is hence sent to UU.

Uber is the banlist for OU, and how a pokemon performs in ubers has NO effect on whether it should be banned from OU. Same thing in the case of BL and UU, respectively.

 

[supermarth64]

Wait what? Both mence and latias are in uber? O_o
I don't get this. Doesn't rayquaze completely outclass salamence, and latios outclass latias? Why'd they throw em in uber?

Actually no for both. Salamence has the valuable base 100 Speed, meaning that when at +1, it at least Speed ties with Scarf Jirachi and Palkia unlike Rayquaza, which gets outsped. Meanwhile, Latias is a good counter to Kyogre, whereas Latios is a more shaky one due to the lesser Special Defense.

Either way, that doesn't matter. Read the above post.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I would've supported both dragons OU or both dragons Uber, because frankly Latias and Mence do a lot to keep each other in check; however, with Latias gone, Mence should also be gone because the DD set loses one of its primary checks.

I also think that it's a good thing that Latias is gone simply because it's too easy a defensive fix for teams that would otherwise have glaring weaknesses to lots of pokemon. I like creativity in playing, and slapping a scarf latias on a team to keep your pokemon safe from various setup sweepers shows that you have no dignity.

 

[Riddle]

What do you even mean by 'dignity'. That sounds a lot like those scrubs who tell me that Im a bad player because I use standard pokemon. If scarf latias helps me stop those set-up sweepers then I have no problem using it.

 

[CRASHiC]

Why in the world are dragons causing so much trouble this gen? Garchomp and Salamence both being in Ubers would be rather crazy. You'd imagine with Ice Shard this would keep these pokemon in check, despite Salamence's fire attacks. Was it the physical special split that threw Dragons over the edge?

 

[mood4food77]

salamence shouldn't go ubers
it's much easier to keep in check

empoleon can keep non-earthquake variants in check
vaporeon does a pretty good job at countering it in general, so does suicune
we've dealt with it for 3 (4?) years and i don't see it going to ubers

 

[CRASHiC]

http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/Smogon Battle Statistics - Standard Ladder - Nov 2009 Output.txt
Typical moveset:
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast
Yeah, sorry Emploeon.

232 Naive Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 0/24 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 45.5% - 53.6%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage vs. 0/24 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 68.2% - 80.2%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage vs. 252/160 Calm Leftovers Empoleon : 48.9% - 57.5%

 

[mood4food77]

fine, most bulky waters can actually deal with him quite well
unlike latias who was completely set up on all of its counters

also, empoleon can come in on Outrage and OHKO with ice beam (outrage lasts 3 turns and they cannot switch out), so with good prediction, empoleon can actually beat salamence (i'm not sure if it a +1 outrage is a 3HKO or a 2HKO, i know a regular outrage is a 3HKO on empleon)

lastly, SR prevents salamence from constant switching since it loses 25% each time it switches in

 

[supermarth64]

232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage

vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Slowbro : 66.5% - 78.4%
vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Suicune : 63.1% - 74.3%
vs. 188/252 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 85.3% - 100.4%
vs. 252/252 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 73.8% - 87.1%

Meanwhile, you're not using Crocune since you have to have Ice Beam. Also, Vaporeon no longer checks Gyarados well, as it has to carry Ice Beam instead of HP Electric. Additionally, if you're allowing Empoleon to do that, there's no way it's sweeping.

Lol Latias setting up on its counters. Scizor and Ttar both OHKO it, while Scarftar can outspeed. Also, both don't get OHKOed by +1 Surf. If it's carrying HP Fire, then Scizor beats it.

 

[mood4food77]

ttar was 2HKO'd by surf and so is scizor as neither 2HKO'd with pursuit

that's not too bad (outside of vaporeon) since you can switch in on the DD and scare it away

there was a reason scizor and scarftar were the 2 most used pokemon in the metagame

i should've said most of it's counters, not all

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Weavile anyone?

Oh wait...

 

[Gates]

that's not too bad (outside of vaporeon) since you can switch in on the DD and scare it away

You won't scare it away because it has boosted attack and speed and can just kill you with the next hit of Outrage.

I like creativity in playing, and slapping a scarf latias on a team to keep your pokemon safe from various setup sweepers shows that you have no dignity.

**** dignity, I just want that bike money.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Current metagame changes:
Latias is being tested in Ubers, Mence is being considered also and looks pretty likely to be bumped up also considering the tone of the discussion.

General trends:
Stall will become more powerful with a nice mixed wallbreaker and a reliably powerful trickscarf/expert belt user being removed. Removing these fast and powerful dragon attackers will also have the potential to reduce the presence of steel-types that aren't scizor in the metagame. Fire as an attacking type will become slightly stronger with the removal of Latias, and Dragon-type pokemon will be more relied upon for their resistances than previously, with Dragonite mostly filling the role of niche stallbreaker/cleric. Coverage Ice moves might be forsaken when stab moves exist, for example Starmie might opt for psychic over ice beam for greater overall power vs. coverage on the remaining dragons and mono-grass pokemon.


Specific Usage:
Scarftar will go down.
Scarf Flygon will go down.
Mamoswine will go down farther.
Scarf Jirachi will go down.
CB Scizor will go down slightly, being replaced by various SD sets.
Swampert will go down, replaced by other SR users like Heatran.

Bulky Waters will go up to help deal with fire types, particularly Vaporeon.
Kingdra will go up.
Dragonite will go up (lol obviously).
Infernape will go up.
Heatran will go up.
Starmie will go up.
Non-Scarf Flygon will go up.

Look about right?

p.s. Gates. **** your bike money. =P

edit: this should've actually gone in the OU meta thread huh? Oh well :/

 

[UltiMario]

Specific Usage:
Scarf Flygon will go down.
Mamoswine will go down farther.
Scarf Jirachi will go down.

Dragonite will go up (lol obviously).
Non-Scarf Flygon will go up.

Here are my points of disagreement.

Dragonite won't go up as much as you'd expect. Dragonite isn't all that great. I mean, he IS really good, but when you have **** like Mence out there, he just doesn't compare.
So, because of that one fact, here's the issues.
Scarf Flygon speed ties with +1 Mence.
Same with Scarfrachi.
Mamoswine can switch in on a DD, or revenge Mence.
These speed ties are some of the little protection from the soon-to-be Dragon domination of Mence in OU, even moreso than now. Latias and Mence were actively conmpeting for "best Dragon". Now the Best Dragon is just plain Mence. Being able to beat it is crucial to EVERY team now.

Dragonite WILL get an increase in usage, of course.
However...
Mence will get a SHARPER increase in usage.
In a situation where Mence and Latias were on the same team would be one of the few exceptions to this rule. But really, people will be using even ScarfMence to try and fill in a Space were Latias has gone missing. It's just what's going to happen because of the simple question "Why should I use DNite over Mence?" Other than an anti-lead, DNite doesn't really do much that Mence can't do one way or another...

 

[kirbyraeg]

I agree with your points, but I'm basically working under the assumption that mence will be banned too, considering how the discussion is going over on smogon >_>

Pretty much I just think that with latias gone, mence will definitely be moved up because one of its primary checks will be gone. Once mence is gone, a lot of those +1 base 100s are going to aim for a lower speed tier or forgo the speed for more stallbreaking power.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm assuming you mean the metagame that's happening over the upcoming weeks or even months.

 

[kirbyraeg]

OK, I'm thinking a bit too far ahead.

But frankly, I think the mence usage spike will be so drastic that Smogon will consider changing their procedure and move Salamence to Ubers in a slightly accelerated fashion.

 

[UltiMario]

Or move Latias back down when they realize it keeps the metagame balanced.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Yeah, both or neither would work best.

Personally, I lean towards neither, but that's just a matter of my preference.

 

[Wave⁂]

Could someone please tell me a Pokémon that can safely switch into a Salamence and kill it before it gets killed besides the god-awful Cresselia and obscure sets like Occa Mamoswine?

 

[UltiMario]

Krilowatt.

 

[mood4food77]

empoleon can switch in on anything but earthquake
most other bulky waters can switch in on anything but a +1 Outrage (meaning they can switch in on the DD, take the hit and then OHKO back)

there's not much but there are a few options

 

[UltiMario]

All-in-all...

If they're NOT ****ed by the DDMence set.
They're ****ed by the Mixmence set.
And even that that they're probably still ****ed by the DDMence set.

Also I'm somewhat doubting that considering **** that RESISTS Outrage and has decent defense still dies to +1 Outrage.

 

[kirbyraeg]

You have to use a bit of thought to beat it. There is no instant anti-mence pokemon, but there's a lot of combos you can use:

Jirachi<->BulkyGyara
Heatran<->Gengar
Heatran<->Donphan
Kingdra<->Metagross
Bronzong->Starmie
ScarfTar<->Flygon

A lot of these still work against both sets as no mixmence will use an attack that works against type synergy, excepting heatran vs. gengar. I mixed up the pokemon in the combos just to show that there are a few things that can actually handle both varieties of mence relatively well.

Also, there's this classic:
LET SOMETHING DIE TO OUTRAGE->ScarfTrio/Mamo/Weavile/Donphan/any +1 greater than 100

Suck it up that you can't have an insta-counter to mence.

Obviously things like Uxie and Cressy can come in and thunder wave to their heart's content (at great cost), Blissey can keep a mence from setting up at great cost, you can even use a mence of your own to intimidate theirs and double-switch to reduce the blow your steel wall takes. Defensive metagross with a bit of spdef will be able to tank any one hit that mence delivers and can explode afterwards.

 

[UltiMario]

To repeat once again...

Latias had counters.
Mence doesn't.

So this pretty much means that with something counterable in the Metagame banned to Ubers, something that CAN'T be countered is doomed to be Uber as well.

:/

 

[mood4food77]

i think salamence's flying type is what keeps him OU

he's not as bulky as garchomp nor latias were and his weakness to SR is something the other 2 didn't have

why don't people use cursepert more?
it 2HKO's latias with avalance after 1 curse and it pretty much will keep salamence otu of the battle

 

[Wave⁂]

empoleon can switch in on anything but earthquake
most other bulky waters can switch in on anything but a +1 Outrage (meaning they can switch in on the DD, take the hit and then OHKO back)

there's not much but there are a few options

Could someone please tell me a Pokémon that can safely switch into a Salamence and kill it before it gets killed besides the god-awful Cresselia and obscure sets like Occa Mamoswine?

Could someone please tell me a Pokémon that can safely switch into a Salamence

a Pokémon that can safely switch into a Salamence

safely switch into a Salamence

I would like to emphasize that a Pokémon not having counters does not equate to Uber.

 

[mood4food77]

donphan can get the job done, and its ice shard is a OHKO after SR damage
oh, and it can switch in on a +1 outrage, earthquake, and is not OHKO'd by fire blast

do i get a cookie?

 

[Wave⁂]

donphan can get the job done, and its ice shard is a OHKO after SR damage
oh, and it can switch in on a +1 outrage, earthquake, and is not OHKO'd by fire blast

do i get a cookie?

Draco Meteor OHKOs standard Rapid Spin and Choice Band Donphan.

Also, inb4DRACOMETEORWUTTHATSNOTFAIR

| Salamence | Move | Draco Meteor | 42.1 |

 

[mood4food77]

Draco Meteor OHKOs standard Rapid Spin and Choice Band Donphan.

darnit, i was close though
cresselia seems to be the only sure-fire counter and with pursuit users running around, it won't get seen much

 

[Metal~Mario]

darnit, i was close though
cresselia seems to be the only sure-fire counter and with pursuit users running around, it won't get seen much

It's more or less its lack of offense and recovery moves that makes it bad.

Anyway, I don't really care if Lati was banned. It'll be sad to see her go, though.

If Mence is banned, well.....that's another story.

 

[mood4food77]

latias was a ***** to deal with, like you had to run a counter (probably the bane of most of my teams)

with mence, i don't have to, just something that can revenge kill it