The Metagame Discussion Thread

[NJzFinest]

Just saying, people use Blissey to sponge special attacks. That being said, it's almost always the best choice if you're looking for a special sponge on your team.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Just saying, people use Blissey to sponge special attacks. That being said, it's almost always the best choice if you're looking for a special sponge on your team.

Yes, it's probably the best special sponge.

But Clefable is better and more useful.

Seriously, I would be very surprised if Clefable doesn't become OU.

 

[drcossack]

Yes, it's probably the best special sponge.

But Clefable is better and more useful.

Seriously, I would be very surprised if Clefable doesn't become OU.

Clefable (and Cleffa/Clefairy) can go die in a fire for all I care. I hate every single one of them.

 

[Hobobloke]

let's make a team

This sounds like fun guys lets do it. I think we can all agree on using the Metagross lead mentioned in the OP, care to post your holy trinity movesets Mow?

 

[CRASHiC]

This sounds like fun guys lets do it. I think we can all agree on using the Metagross lead mentioned in the OP, care to post your holy trinity movesets Mow?

NO
That's WAY to common. We need to counter that. In fact, the entire team should be a counter to the current metagame.

Use this instead:
Arcanine: Choice Band
Flare Blitz (This will down Metagross OHKO with all HP EVs and all Defense EVs)

 

[Hobobloke]

Actually with Occa berry Metagross surives and OHKO's back with Earthquake.

 

[Circa]

Also, Blissey is overrated. But I'll leave that up to discussion.

I don't know if this has ever been done, but I can think of a way to make Blissey nearly the worst thing you've ever faced...

Start with a BP. Something like this:

Vaporeon@leftovers
Timid/Water Absorb
252 HP/4 DEF/252 SPE
-Acid Armor
-Protect
-Wish
-Baton Pass

I just threw that out off the top of my head, so it could probably be better, but whatevs. It gets the job done. Then, take a Blissey and give it a spread like this...

Blissey@leftovers
Bold/Natural Cure or Serene Grace (personally, I'd take serene grace)
252 HP/252 DEF/4 SATK
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Aromatherapy
-Softboiled

And behold, the sweeping Blissey. As long as your opponent has no phazer or doesn't taunt the Vaporeon, they're ****ed. Even one acid armor pass gets Blissey's def to 260, and mixing that with its 714 hp basically means that it won't be dying for a long time. Aromatherapy for people who want to toxic it to death, softboiled in case you get hit by especially powerful wallbreakers and ****, and calm mind/ice beam to sweep, because crit hax still kill you, so pure walling isn't really a good option.

And that was right off the top of my head. I'm betting any player with a bit more time could think of another way to make Blissey near unbeatable with less difficulty.

 

[Niiro]

why the hell is everybody here all OMIGOSH!!!! CLEFABLE IS SOOOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOD ever since ss18 mentioned that it is his favorite pokemon? seriously, not THAT great. i admit, it will take out (or leave at 1 hp, sue me) at least one poke, unless your prediction skills are subpar. but all this meat riding is getting to me. stop it please.

 

[drcossack]

why the hell is everybody here all OMIGOSH!!!! CLEFABLE IS SOOOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOD ever since ss18 mentioned that it is his favorite pokemon? seriously, not THAT great. i admit, it will take out (or leave at 1 hp, sue me) at least one poke, unless your prediction skills are subpar. but all this meat riding is getting to me. stop it please.

The problem is, people use ALL 3 (Cleffa, Clefairy, Clefable), so you're going to lose half your team taking them down.

 

[CRASHiC]

The problem is, people use ALL 3 (Cleffa, Clefairy, Clefable), so you're going to lose half your team taking them down.

explain. What am I missing?

 

[drcossack]

explain. What am I missing?

It doesn't violate Species Clause since it's an evolution line. Since people are able to legally use all 3 of them, they've all got the same set on them: Sash, Magic Guard, Endeavor, and 3 filler moves.

Also, because of Magic Guard, entry hazards and weather (Spikes/Tox Spikes, Stealth Rock, Hail, Sandstorm) don't affect them.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

A ghost type is easily stop that. -.-

 

[Niiro]

The problem is, people use ALL 3 (Cleffa, Clefairy, Clefable), so you're going to lose half your team taking them down.

Lol. So it's like playing 3v3 instead of 6v6?that's very stupid.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Or 6 vs 3 if they have a ghost.... lol

 

[CRASHiC]

But why do they kill a single pokemon so easily, this is what I'm missing.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Lv1 = 11~13 HP so you Endeavor them to that HP, and they die from Sandstorm/Hail/Toxic/Whatever

Magic Guard makes it that they can't get damaged by SR,Spike and Junk

 

[drcossack]

But why do they kill a single pokemon so easily, this is what I'm missing.

If the target has more HP than the user, then the target's HP is reduced to the user's HP. If the target has less HP than the user, nothing happens. It is not affected by resistances, but it does not hit Ghosts.

That's Endeavor. Combo it with an entry hazard and/or harmful weather, and it's pwnage.

 

[peregrine monkey]

I don't know if this has ever been done, but I can think of a way to make Blissey nearly the worst thing you've ever faced...

Start with a BP. Something like this:

Vaporeon@leftovers
Timid/Water Absorb
252 HP/4 DEF/252 SPE
-Acid Armor
-Protect
-Wish
-Baton Pass

I just threw that out off the top of my head, so it could probably be better, but whatevs. It gets the job done. Then, take a Blissey and give it a spread like this...

Blissey@leftovers
Bold/Natural Cure or Serene Grace (personally, I'd take serene grace)
252 HP/252 DEF/4 SATK
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam
-Aromatherapy
-Softboiled

And behold, the sweeping Blissey. As long as your opponent has no phazer or doesn't taunt the Vaporeon, they're ****ed. Even one acid armor pass gets Blissey's def to 260, and mixing that with its 714 hp basically means that it won't be dying for a long time. Aromatherapy for people who want to toxic it to death, softboiled in case you get hit by especially powerful wallbreakers and ****, and calm mind/ice beam to sweep, because crit hax still kill you, so pure walling isn't really a good option.

And that was right off the top of my head. I'm betting any player with a bit more time could think of another way to make Blissey near unbeatable with less difficulty.

This could be even better if you BP'd the acid armor to this:

Smeargle@ Salac Berry
Jolly/Own Tempo
252 Spd/96 Hp/ 160 Sp. Def
-Spore
-Ingrain
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

If you can get a chain set up, Blissey will be immune to phazers courtesy of Ingrain. Smeargle will be able to take more hits beacuse of Acid Armor and will almost always be able to get the pass off.

 

[Niiro]

i never really understood bp chains. hell, i have never gotten beaten by one in OU. only in ubers by kleeprinz, and he (or she) only beat me like.....1/2 of the time LOL. buts thats ubers, and a +6 attack and +1 speed lucario kills everything that can move. nojohns. but kinda on topic, bp chains are, erm, unrealible in OU, because they really rely on your opponent ****ing up, letting you set up. wait, wtf was i talking about?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why are all of you using Clefable wrong? Do it the endeavor way and it gets powned by ghosts. Also, it will only eliminate one pokemon if you use endeavor. Waste away your Cleffa and Clefairy away like that, but Clefable is much more useful and evil at level 100.

Clefable has a very large movepool and a very useful Magic Guard ability. Use them.

 

[NJzFinest]

It's true that ghost are pretty gay but that's why the 3 other pokemon on your 3xfairy team have to compliment the fairies so well. No one carries more then one ghost, not everyone even has a ghost to start with.
If a ghost switches in on an endeavor, it's not like you lose one of your fairies, it should still be at full health. You have the option of switching away while keeping the potential free kill, and I guess you can Para/Encore/ w/e, but that's mildly risky. Once you know the opponent has a ghost, you can predict the switch-in and cripple it with a stat inducer... or you can just have a solid counter as one of your 3 other pkm (ttar is a good example since it adds sandstorm + ***** ghost).
Not saying fairy teams are full proof, but the opponent having a ghost isn't anywhere near "gg".

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It's true that ghost are pretty gay but that's why the 3 other pokemon on your 3xfairy team have to compliment the fairies so well. No one carries more then one ghost, not everyone even has a ghost to start with.
If a ghost switches in on an endeavor, it's not like you lose one of your fairies, it should still be at full health. You have the option of switching away while keeping the potential free kill, and I guess you can Para/Encore/ w/e, but that's mildly risky. Once you know the opponent has a ghost, you can predict the switch-in and cripple it with a stat inducer... or you can just have a solid counter as one of your 3 other pkm (ttar is a good example since it adds sandstorm + ***** ghost).
Not saying fairy teams are full proof, but the opponent having a ghost isn't anywhere near "gg".

Here's my experience with ghosts: I switch in Cleffa, the ghost gets switched in, I switch in a ghost counter, he counters my ghost counter.

Now if I switch in Cleffa, I immediately lose it. If I stay out, then I lose my ghost counter, switch in Cleffa again (or something else), and he switches his ghost in again. And with only three non-endeavoring pokemon, I may very well lack anything to counter his counter for my ghost counter.

Generally, when an opponent has a ghost and is against an endeavor team, the last (or second to last) pokemon to be lost is always the ghost. It's not gg, but Cleffa is simply useless in that match.

BTW, Hail is much better if you are using an endeavor team. But I still don't see why everyone thinks Clefable is made to Endeavor. It has much better alternative options, options that can often take out an entire team. Even if I was going for three Clefs I simply would not use Clefable that way.

 

[NJzFinest]

Here's my experience with ghosts: I switch in Cleffa, the ghost gets switched in, I switch in a ghost counter, he counters my ghost counter.

What's your ghost counter? lol Use something with Pursuit.

he switches his ghost in again.

Stat induce

And with only three non-endeavoring pokemon, I may very well lack anything to counter his counter for my ghost counter.

Most pokemon that are used to counter ghosts are great for many other things (ex. Ttar, Scizor). I doubt many pokemon would want to switch into such hard hitters, especially if you're out predicting them. I also high doubt most players are that prepared for fairy teams.

BTW, Hail is much better if you are using an endeavor team.

Yes, it hits everything but ice.

But I still don't see why everyone thinks Clefable is made to Endeavor. It has much better alternative options, options that can often take out an entire team. Even if I was going for three Clefs I simply would not use Clefable that way.

There are better CM boltbamers
There are better CB/CS users
There are better Facade users
There are better LO sweepers
There's Blissey
There are better wishpassers
and so forth

But nothing pulls off endeavor as good as Clefable in SS/Hail.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What's your ghost counter? lol Use something with Pursuit.

Stat induce

Most pokemon that are used to counter ghosts are great for many other things (ex. Ttar, Scizor). I doubt many pokemon would want to switch into such hard hitters, especially if you're out predicting them. I also high doubt most players are that prepared for fairy teams.

Yes, it hits everything but ice.

There are better CM boltbamers
There are better CB/CS users
There are better Facade users
There are better LO sweepers
There's Blissey
There are better wishpassers
and so forth

But nothing pulls off endeavor as good as Clefable in SS/Hail.

Well, so much for creativity.

Tell you what - take that Hail and use it with this instead

Clefable w/ Burn orb
trick
cosmic power
softboiled
filler

Note: I do not advise the filler be the Facade attack, because Facade is walled by ghosts.

EDIT: Post #4000

 

[NJzFinest]

I'd much rather not lol.

 

[CRASHiC]

From your experiances, is Calm Mind Slowbro with Slack off, Ice Beam, and STAB water a good counter to Garchomp?

 

[Niiro]

No. I think Outrage 2hkos the most bulky sets >.> Lugia is like the only counter.

 

[NJzFinest]

From your experiances, is Calm Mind Slowbro with Slack off, Ice Beam, and STAB water a good counter to Garchomp?

Well, since counter = switch in and threaten the opposing pokemon, because of the reasoning Niiro gave, that would have to be a no.
But if you let something die (which isn't rare when fighting a Garchomp), Slowbro / anything with an ice move can only kill a Garchomp that isn't holding YacheBerry.

Garchomp is a cool guy

 

[metalmonstar]

Sorry to Necro this but I feel that the UU metagame has been pretty crazy for the last couple of months. Like a month or so ago crobat was in UU. Crobat is like a far superior lead to Ampibom and Persian. So crobat saw a lot of usage and kind of made ampibom and persian less viable.

I am worried about this month now that dugtrio has dropped into UU. Dugtrio can trap and OHKO a good amount of the more commonly used UU pokemon. There are a lot of Poison, fire, rock, and steel types that dugtrio puts a huge amount of hurt on. I believe Regirock and Registeel are both 2KOed by Dugtrio and neither of them can really OHKO dugtrio.

The way it looks is that Dugtrio will be on tons of teams as a revenge killer. I see no reason why he can't take down 1-3 pokemon per match.

Also Alakazam and PorygonZ are dropping and may end up in UU. Some have stated that even dragonite would drop into UU.

Will UU become overcentralized?

 

[supermarth64]

It already has. Crobat was used in May for half a month (or April, can't remember), and it was at #9. Before the first BL ban, Staraptor and Gallade were spammed everywhere.

They'll just get nominated again the Offensive/Support characteristics.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, since counter = switch in and threaten the opposing pokemon, because of the reasoning Niiro gave, that would have to be a no.
But if you let something die (which isn't rare when fighting a Garchomp), Slowbro / anything with an ice move can only kill a Garchomp that isn't holding YacheBerry.

Garchomp is a cool guy

you could just hit it until it dies. The main group of people that are bad against garchomp are bad because they think it has wonder guard. you can hit garchomp with moves other than ice/dragon. yache chomp in ou and habanchomp in ubers only work as well as they do based on this mentality. without it, it's just a really good pokemon with no item.

chomp has no recovery move, isn't going to trick you, and rarely has defense invested in it. it gets 2hko'd by good stab moves like just about everything else. just hit him.

I wish someone would run a bulky SD chomp. now that would be scary.

 

[Wave⁂]

Also Alakazam and PorygonZ are dropping and may end up in UU. Some have stated that even dragonite would drop into UU.

Will UU become overcentralized?

Alakazam, PoryZ, and Dragonite are too powerful for UU, IMO. Dragonite doesn't have the sheer attack power of Salamence, but he's got great stats and a great movepool.

 

[Platypus]

The absence of a BL tier is starting to get very annoying. At any rate, Alakazam is less powerful than ever 'cause of the omnipresence of physical priority moves. Porygon-z, on the other hand, frequently gets super-optimal Special Attack from Download and has a decent number of moves with which to work. Dragonite might take the drop if people stop using it entirely (though Ice Beam Vaporeon has dropped nearly out of sight).

Few bulky monsters have double weaknesses. Just ask Corsola.

 

[LightningKimba]

The absence of a BL tier is starting to get very annoying.

Technically, Smogon's new UU tier is what BL was, BL now is just the banlist of UU (AKA BL ~= Uber).

Dragonite would be a cool addition to UU, with it being an awesome Bulky Cleric and all. Chances are, it would overcentralize rhe game quite a bit to offense, but hey, stall needs something to bust its chops with something not starting with a B and looks like a flaming birdy.

Alakazam's almost like an Espeon clone, though Alakazam's reason of being close to useless in OU is because it's fragile, to the point where you'd only use it as a Double Screen lead. Sure, you still have Trick Specs/Scarf, but you have so MANY other options that work SOO much better than the fragile Alakazam. Even worse, it's scared of many of the top OUs, because of its only option of hitting them being HP Fighting or Focus Blast, Focus Blast being very unreliable these days to use.

Then comes Porygon-Z, the more offensive of the Porygon line. Though I find them ugly, Porygon-Z could cause a bit of a ruckus with its old NP set, as well as its Scarf set. Download sucks in UU, since generally, you're ALWAYS going to get an Attack boost rather than a snazzy Special boost, so I except more AdaptTri Attack abusers. I don't think Mismagius could deal with Porygon-Z if it has Life Orb.

Dugtrio's a cool lead, imo. Eh sets me up Stealth Rock and traps whatever leads' in. If it had Encore, Dugtrio would be my favorite Stall Breaker (<3 Wobbufett).

 

[metalmonstar]

Right now I am using dugtrio as a revenge killer, but so far I have yet to see a regi.

Porygon-Z can take a hit or two and with a choice scarf it is able to take down a lot of different pokemon. I think Scarf porygon-z will become the optimal anti-lead for UU should he drop.

I am not sure how alakazam will fare. On the one hand he could sweep entire teams but on the other one sucker punch and he is gone. There are a lot more poision and fighting pokemon in UU which means psychic will actually be useful.

Dragonite would tear up.

I don't think rypherior or donphan will cause too much trouble. Roserade and milotic will keep them in check.

Platypus I see you all the time on Shoddy

 

[Wave⁂]

I doubt Rhyperior will drop. Once you've scouted out and KOd his counters, one Rock Polish and you're sweeping. Donphan seems to be the new Rapid Spinner of choice, those. He can switch into Registeel's Thunder Wave, spin away the rocks, and scare Registeel away with a STAB Earthquake.

 

[LightningKimba]

Once you've scouted out and KOd his counters, one Rock Polish and you're sweeping.

That applies to all sweepers, really. "Once you've KO'd x counters to y pokémon, set up to z and sweep." It's really nothing new.

Rhyperior would probably only be banned because of Solid Rock, essentially neutering down its weaknesses.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

all I know is Scizor is the bane of my existence. But lordy god do I love when I taunt a swords dance and then counter a bullet punch with Weavile.

I like the metagame except for entry hazards and the need for a rapid spinner. I use Yanmega so stealth rock is a big no-no. I feel bad everytime I put up SR too.

sorry if I'm off topic, might be rambling a bit

 

[Chill]

Timssu, that set's terrible for a number of reasons. Vaporeon is one of the best defensive pokemon, maxing it's speed is useless. Secondly, if you wanted to baton pass to Blissey it needs to be modest. Third, if you're baton passing to a pokemon that's supposed to sweep it needs to be able to sweep. Swampert will roar that *expletive* out in a second.

Anyway, isn't this supposed to be about the current metagame? I haven't battled in awhile and the last time I did it was for the suspect test. I definately have some catching up to do but from what I've seen the metagame hasn't shifted much from the steel fest it was not so long ago. I doubt much will change until stage 3 is over and everything is in it's tier.

 

[metalmonstar]

What are your all's thoughts on the stealth rock? There seems to be a decent sized support for its ban because it overcentralizes the game. I honestly don't think that is a bad thing. It makes rapid spinners, taunt leads, and anti leads viable options. It is a shame what it does to pokemon like Ninjask and such but I don't think it is really broken.

I am starting to think that 3vs3 instead of 6vs6 would be a totally different metagame.