The Metagame Discussion Thread

[kirbyraeg]

Bronzong can switch in on +1 EQ and Outrage to KO with Gyro Ball. Fire Blast 2hkos, so if it hits you on the switch it's done UNLESS you're running heatproof and the other guy is an idiot, but any other attack is a free switch that you can revenge with gyro ball. Draco meteor+2 fire blasts at -2 assuming 252 LO SpAtk Naive doesn't 3hko if zong switches in on draco meteor, so it can safely switch in on draco meteor and 2hko with gyro ball (or ohko with hp ice if you felt like it).

 

[mood4food77]

that means my bronzong set will work?!?

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Sassy / Levitate
252 HP/ (i gotta think of defensive EVs)
Iron Defense
Charge Beam
HP Ice
Stealth Rock/Psychic

 

[kirbyraeg]

no lol

there's no reason trying to stat up against an attack that won't do much to bronzong anyway

most of what threatens him is special, so maybe you could run a calm mind set.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Relaxed / Levitate
252 HP/176 Def/80 SpDef

Calm Mind
Psychic
Signal Beam
HP whatever/flash cannon

man what a bad set. I am disappointed.

 

[mood4food77]

calm mind works find with bronzong
remember, i created that set

it's more like
Calm Mind
Psychic
HP Ice
Charge Beam

actually, just take my set and replace Iron Defense for Calm Mind and it'll work

 

[NJzFinest]

with mence, i don't have to, just something that can revenge kill it

Get something fat and bulky, then give it icebeam/hp ice lol

 

[Wave⁂]

The problem is finding something that is fat and bulky enough with decent typing.

 

[Metal~Mario]

The problem is finding something that is fat and bulky enough with decent typing.

Quoted for truth.

 

[NJzFinest]

*insert bulky water pokemon*

 

[Gates]

*insert bulky water pokemon*

It gets 2HKO'd by TBolt/TPunch/Grass Knot/HP Electric/HP Grass/Earthquake/Outrage/Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor/Toxic Spikes.

 

[NJzFinest]

I'm confused.

Mence will DD almost always as you switch in your fat water. I don't even think it can 2HKO, granted the fat water is heavily investment in Def, without having 1+ up earlier (aka an extra turn).

Mence doesn't even learn or have most of those moves you said it's standard set >.>

 

[Gates]

I was joking.

 

[ss118]

You are either excessively trolling or are incredibly mistaken.

607 Atk vs 504 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 156 - 184 (51.32% - 60.53%)

With Leftovers, Cloyster finds itself 2HKOed by CB Outrage 88.95% of the time if conditions are perfect for Cloyster, meaning no SR, Spikes, SS, anything.

607 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 217 - 256 (53.71% - 63.37%)

This is Suicune. 2HKOed 100% of the time. And swampert has 25 lower base defense, so no to him either.

405 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 219 (47.21% - 55.58%)

Max HP+Defense Gyarados. Gets 2HKOed 13.61% of the time in perfect conditions and 100% otherwise.

607 Atk vs 302 Def & 372 HP (120 Base Power): 129 - 153 (34.68% - 41.13%)

Empoleon taking an Outrage.

607 Atk vs 302 Def & 372 HP (100 Base Power): 288 - 340 (77.42% - 91.40%)

Empoleon taking an Earthquake.

405 Atk vs 240 Def & 362 HP (100 Base Power): 242 - 286 (66.85% - 79.01%)

Bibarel with Unaware trying to take DDMence when it comes in on a DD.

If you want Life Orb multiply the damage by 1.3 to get an approximate of what it would be like to try to take a LODDMence. Give it a Yache Berry or a Sp. Defensive spread and you are totally ****ed.

 

[mood4food77]

but you're coming in on the DD
of course if it already has a DD up, it *****
just about anything with a boost up *****

NPmixape ***** after 1 NP
DD gyara ***** after 1 DD
Cursepert ***** after 1 curse

i could go on but in general, yes if something has a boost up, it's going to be unstoppable except if and when it gets revenge killed, so your best bet is to sacrifice something and revenge kill it, against all of those options

 

[ss118]

or you could attack it with a general hit as it comes in and never let it set up, or actually switch to the revenge-killer on the set-up, or double-switch in something to beat mence.

 

[mood4food77]

everything takes prediction, the safest bet is sacrificing then revenge killing it

well, attacking when it comes in is prediction, so yes that obviously works, but it's just prediction and can't be relied on since you cannot guarantee a salamence coming in

switching in the revenge killer isn't safe unless it's donphan and the salamence isn't running draco meteor, it's a high risk high reward type thing (your guy can get OHKO'd on the switch but if the move misses, you win)

you should not double switch on salamence unless it uses outrage>DD
as you saw by your own stuff, it pretty much 2HKO's every poke after 1 DD and double switching will gaurentee it at least 1 DD unless it is locked into outrage

 

[ss118]

Double switching means to switch in something as your opponent switches in something else.

Both people are switching in something on the same turn.

1 switch x 2

Switching Doubled

Double Switching

btw I don't mean to sound like an a-hole. I'm just listing the steps as to how the name came about lol xD

 

[mood4food77]

you didn't

i thought double switching was your switching, then trying to make up for your over-predicted switch

as in, you make 2 switches to try and cover up a mistake you did

but it's something new to me

 

[CRASHiC]

Here's a question, if we ban Mence, what's stopping us from banning Dragonite? Its been mentioned several times on Smogon, but not addressed in such a way that I am satisified with.

I can see the speed difference, which is pretty major, as well as the special attack, however, does larger bluk truly makeup for its lack of speed? It only has 1 fewer attack the Mence, its outrage hits just as hard.

 

[NJzFinest]

You are either excessively trolling or are incredibly mistaken.

I don't think I worded what I said right.

Bulky water switches as Mence DDs.

Mence does Outrage as bulky water uses an ice move.

This is what I mean about Mence not being able to 2HKO.

 

[Wave⁂]

Offensive Calm Mind Suicune, Rest Talk Gyarados, and Cloyster are 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage, while Empoleon is 2HKOed by Earthquake.

MixMence, people.

 

[CRASHiC]

Salemence Outrage versus SuicCrocune63.1% - 74.3%
This is the only one that stood a chance against that strategy NJ, and Bibarel. Swampart, Vaporeon, all of them are otherwise whiped out by a plus 1 outrage for Salemence, some of them with only a percent chance, however, then you're laying your game on chance. If you don't switch in, its check mate as you now have a plus 2 Salemence running around.

Oh and forget with stealth rock and/or spike support. Then switching in is suicide.

 

[ss118]

@ NJ: ok then I apologize. My bad. xD

The biggest point is basically those are all designed to take physical mence: if that was all it could do that would be fine, but it has the ability to go mixed and 2HKO everything I just mentioned with a combination of Draco Meteor/ EQ.

@ CRASHiC: I think the speed and Sp. Attack does more than you think. A reason the Mixed Set is so obnoxious is that it 100% forces you to lose a pokemon if you are outsped by mence and are finished by Draco Meteor: anything slower that can take that hit loses because mence can use the appropriate attack afterwards, whereas anything faster and able to kill mence immediately really just can't take the hit.

Then there's Cresselia/ Sp. Defensive Porygon2, which are the only two pokemon I can think of who break this chain with SR and SS up. Without those factors you have a lot of other pokemon to decide from(Sp. Defensive Gyarados/ Suicune come to mind), but a good mence player will try to keep those factors up at all times. Usually.

Dragonite, in return, doesn't have the Sp. Attack to put teams in that predicament as often, nor does it have the 100 base speed that allows salamence to do it so often while remaining as powerful as it is. Then Mence has the ability to go Dragon Dance and take advantage of teams who over-prepare for the mixed mence, as well as go band for stall teams that do the best at handling both.

 

[mood4food77]

dragonite does have that 80 base priority move

 

[CRASHiC]

Steels and bulky waters are switchins against dragons, Extreme Speed doesn't offer any help to his situation. It would be a near waist of a move slot.

 

[ss118]

Name something that comes into Dragonite taking a Draco Meteor + Extremespeed less effectively than taking a Draco Meteor + anything else from mence.

Dragonite has to go with priority. Mence doesn't.

Edit: I take it back, Dragonite can take Sp. Defensive P-2 better because of lack of intimidate and hitting it harder with Superpower. Same for blissey, I guess.

 

[Wave⁂]

Now that you mention it, some of the Pokémon Porygon2 checked were also checked by Latias...

How to take down a Salamence:
1. Stealth Rock + Sandstream
2. Ice Shard
3. Outrage lock + Steel-type

 

[NJzFinest]

Salemence Outrage versus SuicCrocune63.1% - 74.3%
This is the only one that stood a chance against that strategy NJ, and Bibarel. Swampart, Vaporeon, all of them are otherwise whiped out by a plus 1 outrage for Salemence, some of them with only a percent chance, however, then you're laying your game on chance. If you don't switch in, its check mate as you now have a plus 2 Salemence running around.

Oh and forget with stealth rock and/or spike support. Then switching in is suicide.

Slowbro!

Swampert definitely lives from a +1 LO Outrage too Also there's those non waters like Hippo and Cress.

Idk, just saying lol.

 

[ss118]

I don't think anyone is arguing over the same thing lol

 

[kirbyraeg]

let's quit talking about how mence will **** everything and instead look at other sweepers that aren't infernape and heatran.

 

[Circa]

let's quit talking about how mence will **** everything and instead look at other sweepers that aren't infernape and heatran.

So...about them Starmies. It deals with Infernape quite handily and benefits from Latias' riddance as well. And it's a ****ing boss. If people were to actually quit looking at it as a rapid spinner and just focus on its sweeping capabilities, it becomes a little more deadly (although the difference is most noticeable). Put Grass Knot in your last slot for Swampert and a harder hit on Suicune and your only counters are Blissey and Lanturn. Put Recover in the last slot instead and run Hydro Pump, and you can still take on most Swampert variants while also turning Blissey into a liability; despite her ability to counter (Recover as she doesn't do **** to you, and scout the set as well).

Speaking of Starmie, I don't think ScarfTar usage is going to drop a huge amount like people seem to think. Latias is gone, but all it does is open up Nape, Starmie, and Heatran. ScarfTar makes a rather good revenge killer to all of them.

 

[mood4food77]

starmie is a friggen beast now

tentacruel is going to rise up, since now it's a great spinner again and with the right EV investment, Starmie's thunderbolt is a 3HKO (as starmie now becomes tone of the premier special sweeper), while it can't take 3 of gengar's t-bolts, it's still only a 2HKO, same with specs jolteon, while being a very good t-spiker

oh, and it counters Infernape quite well

i feel like there will be more variety now

with this said, i feel that having only salamence is fine, yes you have to make sure your team can both revenge kill it and keep it in check but that's fine when it's only 1 pokemon

trying to keep latias AND salamence in check was a *****, cursepert was actually the only thing i found that managed to keep both in check successfully (and it needed at least 1 curse to do so), and latias could deal with those checks much much easier than salamence could

salamence is not frail but he is sure as hell isn't bulky, unlike latias who could take at least 3 hits from any non-SE move unlike salamence who dies in 2 hits to any neutral move
while yes intimidate does help, it doesn't do anything to the special side, in which most pokes are using an ice move from

 

[NJzFinest]

Eh, from the way it seems, Cursepert doesn't seem it would be that good. I mean, you're assuming the opponent lets you Curse and/or actually sends in Mence as a counter. If you switch into a Mence that's already out, then that's a different story. Cursepert doesn't invest in 252 Def like normal sets. I
Then again, I'm exactly sure of how people use the term "check" these days.

 

[ss118]

"Check" means that it can be considered some measure against a particular pokemon.

People use Lucario a lot because it can sweep easily with the right support, and even if it doesn't it can help keep a lot of pokemon in "check" with Extremespeed.

 

[NJzFinest]

Ohhhh. Then does this make sense?

"Use Vaporeon since it's pretty good at sponging moves and can keep other bulkly waters in check with Toxic/HP Elec"

 

[Chill]

So...about them Starmies. It deals with Infernape quite handily and benefits from Latias' riddance as well. And it's a ****ing boss. If people were to actually quit looking at it as a rapid spinner and just focus on its sweeping capabilities, it becomes a little more deadly (although the difference is most noticeable). Put Grass Knot in your last slot for Swampert and a harder hit on Suicune and your only counters are Blissey and Lanturn. Put Recover in the last slot instead and run Hydro Pump, and you can still take on most Swampert variants while also turning Blissey into a liability; despite her ability to counter (Recover as she doesn't do **** to you, and scout the set as well).

Speaking of Starmie, I don't think ScarfTar usage is going to drop a huge amount like people seem to think. Latias is gone, but all it does is open up Nape, Starmie, and Heatran. ScarfTar makes a rather good revenge killer to all of them.

This is why I support mach punch on Infernape.

I also think we're going to see non-spinner Starmie a lot more. People are already using it so I expect it will continue to gain popularity. And hey, people might even have a reason to start using Blissey again.

With the current Salamencee "testing" what do you guys think the result will be? A part of me thinks he'll always be around but I could see him getting the boot to ubers.

 

[mood4food77]

teams will be A LOT more varied without salamence in the picture
but i don't see him going to ubers

it's mainly because he's weak to SR, making him a **** ton easier to deal with as most good priority users can finish him off after SR and life orb damage

we all know the story of garchomp, bulkiness higher than that of swampert, resisted SR, in SS he gets a 20% chance of making moves miss, and he has base 130 Atk with 102 Spe...he's just beastly

Latias was a ***** bag that could wall almost any team not carrying scizor, tyranitar, or a blissey (in which blissey was set-up fodder for latias) and her not being weak to SR and being super bulky didn't help either

really, salamence without DD isn't that big of a deal, it's just once he gets a DD, the only thing you can do is revenge kill it with a priority move, or a scarf pokemon with more than base 100 speed, but being weak to SR really is what can keep him balanced

 

[Riddle]

I don't know why people keep saying Sr keeps mence balanced. Seriously this thing still ***** everything and it gets roost anyway. Plus mence is bulky so it can take priority.

How much does specially defensive Shuca metagross take mences attacks? I know it cant take two mixmence fire blasts but what if he dms on the switch? And can he take a +1 earthquake? Specially defensive occa skarmory can also probably take any hit from ddmence or dm to anything from mixmence but I'm not sure it can ohko mence.

 

[mood4food77]

because most mence run life orb and at that point, he's either at 75% or 65% life left, so what if he gets roost if he gets hits by an ice shard from either mamo or weavile, he's going to die, would you sacrifice your salamence or switch out?

without SR, he can switch in freely and proceed to ****

 

[Circa]

really, salamence without DD isn't that big of a deal

You lost all credibility right about here.

because most mence run life orb and at that point, he's either at 75% or 65% life left, so what if he gets roost if he gets hits by an ice shard from either mamo or weavile, he's going to die, would you sacrifice your salamence or switch out?

So I guess you don't realize that in this situation, if you're facing a MixMence and you DO Ice Shard (as opposed to Pursuiting with Weavile), you've basically just let it switch out so it could come back in again later and murder something else on your team. Also, those two things kind of require a team to be built around them to be effective. Just an FYI.

 

[NJzFinest]

lol, DD Mence is still a huge threat even if it never DDs.

135 base attack with some of the most threatening moves in the game coming off above average speed + LO?

No need to even mention MixMence lol...