The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Calebyte]

So it would be great if we had detailed summaries of the matchups in the OP. I'd be willing to comb through the thread and summarize each MU if no one else wants to.

 

[Matt07]

Calebyte, that'd be great, but...

I've done that with Boss' Match-Up thread before, (I think that one was over 100 pages) let me just say it's very time consuming and repetitive.

I think we should collaborate and each member does 1 match-up summary, and if there's not enough some people can do two if they wish.

 

[HeroMystic]

Summaries should have their own thread as an extension to avoid clutter.

 

[Calebyte]

Summaries should have their own thread as an extension to avoid clutter.

I agree. Perhaps it could include video references as well? I'd be willing to get it started, and then other people could contribute summaries as the thread grows. Thoughts?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

If people don't mind personal opinions that I'd input into matchup summaries I could totally write some out.

 

[mars16]

That all sounds cool!

..... So that means will have to go over all the characters again but with more summery?

 

[Calebyte]

We'll just be going through what we've already decided in the mathcup discussion threads into a single concise summary for each character. It'll be a quick reference for anyone looking for information on a matchup.

tl;dr: This thread will be for discussion, the other will be for reference.

 

[Inferno3044]

Let's get back to Pika. Also, I'm gonna put down Shiek down as 55:45 disadvantage unless anyone is against that.

 

[Calebyte]

Pikachu is a matchup I'm interested in, but don't know a lot about. I've heard that Pika's air game is poor. Would it be best to keep the fight in the air? Also, we all know the value of cape and FLUDD in this MU.

 

[HeroMystic]

I've fought like three Pikachus at Winterfest that all did the same thing, but I honestly can't remember what I did. I just know that after the first three matches I was winning extensively (friendlies).

From what I remember, Pikachu likes to use QAC to be hard to hit, but this is not particularly a problem for Mario thanks to fireballs, in all applications.

Pika's ground game is okay. Outside of his ridiculous smash attacks Mario is better in just about everything else. F-tilt can be used extensively and jabbing of course always works. You actually want to keep your space against Pika due to his annoying jab.

IIRC, Pikachu's air game actually beats ours. His B-air is insanely disjointed enough for it to be a spacer, and N-air is a juggle breaker. I'm not sure if our Anti-Air capabilities are reliable, but outside of Pika's D-air I think they are.

Mario has a much easier time KOing Pika. He has Thunder, U-Smash, and F-Smash. I don't remember his aerial killer (like I said, I hardly remember the Pika matches I had), but it's probably U-air as an edgeguard. Mario has a bit of trouble too. If Pika shields F-Smash he can just D-Smash us to hell, and QAC makes U-Smash as an Anti-Air killer more troublesome to use.

Of course though, Pikachu's recovery is absolute crap against us. Hur-freaken-ray for FLUDD and Cape. Even a little spray of water stops Pikachus' Side-B completely. Fireballs stops Side-B too IIRC.

Pikachu is kinda gimmicky. Outside of his aerials and mobility he doesn't really have much over us. I'd say Mario's advantage.

 

[Juushichi]

Usually you won't run into a good Pikachu that will use side-b off stage outside of getting close enough to use QA to get back on and even then not particularly frequently does it see use. His nair has the ability to kill (as well as send low-trajectory) when it's fresh and a lot of Pika's moves are able to stop combos. He's quick on the draw and combos almost as well as Mario does with his up-tilts to upair (or nair) and his f-tilt isn't too bad either.

On the ground I'd say that we have the advantage, but fighting Pikachu in the air is a bit of a pain. Not sure if he has an answer to our Bair, however, and he seems a little suceptable for Dairs, too.

 

[Matador]

Bo has some matches up somewhere of him fighting Anther...best Pika vs a top Mario.

I'll link if I can find some.

And yeah, I don't think he has anything that outright beats our Bair priority/range-wise...not that it will wall well at all if the Pikachu knows their options.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well if B-air beats Pikachu it gives Mario an even better advantage in terms of spacing.

Pikachu's best bet in recovering vs Mario is DIing up and drifting back to the stage. Makes him vulnerable from below though (if U-Smash or U-tilt beats D-air that is. Someone should test that).

Feels like I missing something here though. Something that wouldn't give Mario the advantage...

 

[HeroMystic]

Since we aren't having any progress here I'd nominate 55:45 - 60:40 Mario. Leaning towards 55:45 however.

 

[Juushichi]

I'm fine with 55:45 Mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pikachu is REALLY REALLY HARD TO HIT if he's good.

It's important to keep in mind that Pikachu's approach is better than yours. He has infinitely more mobility with QAC, and if he scores a knockdown and you don't tech, things can get really nasty if he knows the QAC lock. His F-air is pretty stupid as well, and is able to start combos into stuff. Mario can play a better horizontal spacing game, but Pikachu's combos are more consistent. His rising N-air out of QAC is also a reasonable threat to watch out for, since he will usually rely on this for KOs.

I had a Japanese player QAC lock me ON WIFI. Yeah, that was the instant I realized I had underestimated Pikachu. It's safe to say that you can't be sloppy in this matchup. Even though Pikachu doesn't have anything gay on Mario and Mario has good tools to fight back, you can't underestimate what this guy is capable of doing.

His Smashes aren't the only thing that are better than yours (actually I would debate the opposite, Mario has better Smashes than Pikachu). I do believe that his tilts are slightly more practical as well (his F-tilt has deceptive range, and his D-tilt is virtually safe. His U-tilt juggles and covers both sides.

I don't think Mario wins. I think the matchup however is neutral, and you have to keep in mind that Pikachu fares better on CP stages than Mario most of the time.

Pikachu's D-smash isn't a huge worry if you SDI. Furthermore you can drop shield F-smash to punish it. His F-smash is overall not as good as yours, as it's weak at the tip. Your U-smash is better than his since it does not require a sweetspot to kill. Furthermore he has to approach you since you have better camping, and Mario can edgecamp all day against Pikachu without fear due to Cape Stalling.

Pikachu is a really really rarely seen character though in this game, but trust me, good ones can be really surprisingly nasty. He doesn't have anything in specific that's gay on Mario, he's just generally able to do fundamentally gay stuff once he realizes the full extent to what ways he can approach and how many different setups he can create off of different moves.

 

[HeroMystic]

I find it funny how I throw out a ratio and more information pours in.

50:50 is fine with me. I kinda just wanna move on. lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's like nobody noticed the post I made pages ago about my exp against Pikachu.

I played some pro Pikachus on wifi...yeah it was wifi, but regardless it taught me a lot about this matchup...considering that I was getting owned, and not due to lag tactics lol.

 

[vato_break]

i have like 6 replays of me beating anther

 

[mars16]

The Only things that annoy me about Pikachu is his Thunder and his Downsmash...
]
I say 50/50 as well

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

The Only things that annoy me about Pikachu is his Thunder and his Downsmash...
]
I say 50/50 as well

Thunder...CApe it. nuff said.

Downsmash...hold up on the analog stick and DI out of it. no real harm or threat there.

yeah its 50/50. can get annoying to play Pika, just be patient really.

 

[Flameleon]

-Pika is the master of the evasiveness, and i think that it's pretty even too, perhaps we have an advantage of 55-45 if it's a campy match...-

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Pikachu got nothing on us when it comes to camping, inb4cape.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well I've been inactive on this. So 2 people think its even and 1 for 55:45. Any other opinions?

 

[Calebyte]

50:50 sounds good.

I vote we do Diddy Kong next.

 

[mars16]

Diddy Kong??.....

I vote Diddy Kong 2

I hate the Bananas

Lets just say I don't now the Matchup very well

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

If it's Diddy, this is like our 2nd time discussing him, Mario kinda stuggles w/ Diddy's nanas.

 

[Flameleon]

-Mario can overcome those pesky nanerz x9-

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Diddy is like vs Pikachu...Mario's got stuff on him and can pretty easily avoid getting ***** by a lot of the stuff that makes Diddy good, and you even get to kill him earlier than he can kill you. But again you can't be sloppy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Diddy can kiss my ***.

 

[Calebyte]

Diddy is rough for me. I usually try to stay between Diddy and his nanas, but it can be tough. I think that without nanas, Diddy's moveset is just as good as Mario's, and he has better recovery. Nanas give him a really big edge. I dunno, I don't think this MU is even at all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy's main advantages are generation of Bananas, a command grab that has good range, and better tilts. Mario however has more fluid aerials, fireballs, a pretty safe reflector, and an easier time scoring KOs (due to reliability of KO moves and greater weight).

Generally speaking Mario can make a lot more mistakes than Diddy if you DI well and the matchup swings neutral due to the fact Mario's movepool happens to have a lot of answers to what Diddy can do.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think that without nanas, Diddy's moveset is just as good as Mario's, and he has better recovery.

Not really. Mario has greater aerials and they're even-ish (Diddy comes out just a bit better due to tilts) on his ground game. And while Diddy has a greater distance in his recovery it's definitely not safe.

 

[Calebyte]

^ I agree, though I do think Diddy has safer recovery options than Mario. Add in a slightly better ground game and banana shenanigans, and Diddy becomes pretty formidable I think.

 

[Count]

Somebody explain to me their basis for this being an even matchup? Diddy has a much better recovery, I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to concede mario has superior aerials, and diddy's ground game and combo ability much surpass marios. In addition to landing KOs. Diddy's camp ability also severly limits mario's options.

Refector? Mario's cape, sadly, isn't what it was in melee. It comes out slow, and is easily baitable. Diddy's side b latch, and fair are extremely safe aginst mario.

I'm not trying to say diddy stomps all over this matchup, but I play xero and caleb a lot and I'm confident to say diddy wins. What wario has beaten a prominent diddy, in tournament. What proof do you have that this is an even matchup?

Admitingly mario's bair and occasional gimp tricks can be annoying for diddy but that isn't enough to swing the matchup to even. Although mario is a severely underrated character that can give diddy a tough time, this matchup is at least slightly in diddy's favor.



ps: diddy's ground game is better, due to tilts? b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

edit: caleb asked me to come in here and discuss the matchup, so no flaming!

And don't assume I only play him..I've played box7 in person (albeit doubles) as well as xero..plus like every mario on wifi at one time or another. The first time I ever played kirin on wifi was probably as bad as I've been demolished in this game ever, lmao. That was so long ago. Good ole' gamebattles.

 

[HeroMystic]

Again, not really. As a person who is plagued by Diddys, I can assure you that Diddy's recovery is not safer than Mario's. The actual problem is getting Diddy off the stage.

When fighting Diddy you have to keep an eye on your options, including with what you can do bananas.

EDIT: K, I got ninja'd, I'll address that post in a moment.

 

[vato_break]

Somebody explain to me their basis for this being an even matchup? Diddy has a much better recovery, I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to concede mario has superior aerials, and diddy's ground game and combo ability much surpass marios. In addition to landing KOs. Diddy's camp ability also severly limits mario's options.

Diddy's camping only limits mario's options on the edge. Fireballs>peanuts. Mario can gimp diddy in every situation monkey flip/kick is countered by fludd/cape/aerials/and fireballs. nairs will beat diddy's barrells. Diddy's ground game is much superior to mario's i agree.

Refector? Mario's cape, sadly, isn't what it was in melee. It comes out slow, and is easily baitable. Diddy's side b latch, and fair are extremely safe aginst mario.

Mario's cape will linger when used in the air and this is the only way mario should generally be using his cape vs bananas. If you happen to hit mario in the air big deal he doesn't trip he just takes damage. Say you have a banana in your hand and mario jumps at you with a cape. most diddys will respond with a sheild, the cape will stay out longer because it is hitting something so if you throw banna too early the banna will reflect hit and trip you. If you do it too late mario can FF and grab you or come down with an aerial. Mario can even jab you if you try to throw bannana OOS.

I'm not trying to say diddy stomps all over this matchup, but I play xero and caleb a lot and I'm confident to say diddy wins. What wario has beaten a prominent diddy, in tournament. What proof do you have that this is an even matchup?

so you play two marios who don't know the diddy matchup very well, nice. I've beaten nanerz, felix, redj, tc1, dao, itswillyo,ect countless diddys on the WC and comeout on top.

Admitingly mario's bair and occasional gimp tricks can be annoying for diddy but that isn't enough to swing the matchup to even. Although mario is a severely underrated character that can give diddy a tough time, this matchup is at least slightly in diddy's favor.

Actually it is very even, mario has many ways to gimp diddy to the point where it actually becomes very reliable. Getting diddy offstage with bairs,ftilt and fthrow is the best way to setup gimps. This is a very even matchup actually. Fireballs will become a huge nascence for diddy and once mario gets in he can apply alot of pressure and diddy doesnt really have alot of quick GTFO moves in the air so comboing diddy is not hard at all. Mario can actually control diddys bannana's decently with a guaranteed kill move out of a glide toss and placing banana's as baits. The 2 moves mario will have trouble working around are fair and monkey kick this is because of the high priority mario can easily cape both of these. Caping the kick could easily be a stock loss for diddy. Mario can also limit alot of diddy's option on the ledge with fireballs.

55:45 diddy on FD

50:50 anywhere else.(neutrals)

Diddy also has no answers to mario's planking.

I play agianst diddy everyday btw and i also secondary him.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's-a cherrypickin time.

Somebody explain to me their basis for this being an even matchup?

K.

Diddy has a much better recovery

Not really.

I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to concede mario has superior aerials

He does.

and diddy's ground game and combo ability much surpass marios.

Yep.

In addition to landing KOs.

Nope.

Diddy's camp ability also severly limits mario's options.

Laughable.

Refector? Mario's cape, sadly, isn't what it was in melee. It comes out slow, and is easily baitable. Diddy's side b latch, and fair are extremely safe aginst mario.

Extremely laughable.

I'm not trying to say diddy stomps all over this matchup, but I play xero and caleb a lot and I'm confident to say diddy wins. What wario has beaten a prominent diddy, in tournament. What proof do you have that this is an even matchup?

This isn't about Wario, it's about Mario.

Admitingly mario's bair and occasional gimp tricks can be annoying for diddy but that isn't enough to swing the matchup to even.

If Mario is only using B-air then something's wrong.

Although mario is a severely underrated character that can give diddy a tough time, this matchup is at least slightly in diddy's favor.

I wouldn't mind putting it in Diddy's favor actually.

ps: diddy's ground game is better, due to tilts? b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

FYI, we were talking about without bananas.

edit: caleb asked me to come in here and discuss the matchup, so no flaming!

And don't assume I only play him..I've played box7 in person (albeit doubles) as well as xero..plus like every mario on wifi at one time or another. The first time I ever played kirin on wifi was probably as bad as I've been demolished in this game ever, lmao. That was so long ago. Good ole' gamebattles.

I beat down about twenty Diddy players in my Brawl career, is it because Mario is awesome or I'm just awesome?


Anyway:

Diddy - 50:50

Summary

Diddy is a character that is recently rising to fame in Brawl. His excellent zoning ability as well as his constant pressure tactics make him an appealing character, and is currently a contender for top-tier placement. Mario however is a formidable match for him for various reasons.

Diddy's greatest quality is his bananas (naners). In which they are the key reason to his zoning, damage-racking, and overall pressure. They are the bread 'n butter of his gameplay for just about any Diddy. Combined with the fact that he has the faster throw in the game (his throw comes out in lesser frames and ends in lesser frames), his moveset, particularly his lagless Dash attack, high-damage F-Smash, and the monkey hump, he can give you a run for your money.

Mario however counters Diddy's naners effectively with the cape, in which if you cape them, they do nothing and counts as your bananas. Diddy however can simply dash grab to regain control of them, but this can be countered in a number of ways, such as fireballs, cape, or grabbing the naner yourself. On that note, it's recommended that you know how to DACIT (Boost Toss AKA "Link's Bombsliding") and/or JCT/RJCT (Jump Cancel Throw/Reverse Jump Cancel Throw) to increase your effectiveness on using naners against Diddy, since it's very possible to follow-up with just about any move out of it. Otherwise, secluding them by throwing them upwards or keeping them at the edge of the stage is doable.

Moveset-wise, Diddy suffers from the same weakness Mario has: A lack of range. This makes Mario's entire moveset usable against Diddy. Pound for pound, Mario's attributes are better than Diddy's as his attacks generally come out faster, less lag, and a high ability to combo Diddy thanks to his size and weight.

Things to look out for ground-wise is Diddy's F-tilt, which has the ability to make a wall to stop Mario from getting past without the use of Cape or F-Smash. His jab, while less effective than F-tilt, also does the same thing, but is much more laggy and punishable. His Dash attack, to be blunt, is ****ing annoying as ****. It's lagless, has high priority against other ground moves, and virtually unpunishable. You either need to fireball this or contest with N-air to beat it. Diddy's D-Smash is inferior to Mario's, but is a decent kill move. F-Smash is his best kill move, but the first hit can be DI'd outwards or upwards to avoid the second hit. And if you do get hit by the second hit, it's a horrible vertical killer, so just DI upward and momentum break.

Aerial-wise, watch out for F-air, his best aerial killer, and Side-B, the monkey hump which can turn into the monkey foot and contest with B-air, which trades hit if Mario doesn't space correctly. Otherwise Mario trumps Diddy in the air. U-air juggles are viable, and just about any aerial besides F-air comes out faster than Diddy's.

Off-stage, Mario vastly beats Diddy with the usual tools. You can fireball, FLUDD, or cape his Side-B (Do not run into Monkey hump. It will gimp you), and N-air, fireball, or Cape his Up-B. Coupled with a ledgehog, this is usually enough to gimp him. With good DI, Mario usually won't be gimped by Diddy. Though, if you're caught in recovering low, watch out for banana gimps and F-air, and make sure to cape stall if he edgehogs.

Overall, this battle will mainly depend if you can break down Diddy's game with his bananas. If you can't, then Diddy automatically wins. If you can, then this match-up is yours.

Counterpick stages: Battlefield, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Count]

I didn't realize that you had beaten such noteworthy diddy's..impressive! Xero knows the matchup..he took alphazealot to last game..unless AZ doesn't know mario which is possible.

I'll address that post probably later tonight..accounting calls at the moment.

edit: vato makes points, unfortunately, hero, you don't. you say dumb stuff like 'k' and 'lol'.

and who have you beaten thats good? and if you're so good, why haven't i heard of you? (not trying to be mean, just asking)

 

[HeroMystic]

edit: vato makes points, unfortunately, hero, you don't. you say dumb stuff like 'k' and 'lol'.

That is completely untrue!

I did not say lol!

and who have you beaten thats good?

No one worthy of noticing besides Abscent and RedHal's bro (which I go very even with).

and if you're so good, why haven't i heard of you? (not trying to be mean, just asking)

The real question is why haven't I heard of j00? c wut i did thar?

No, seriously, who the **** are you?

EDIT: On a very serious non-trolling note, read what I said previously.