The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[A2ZOMG]

Are you really relating Sheik to Falco? SH Double Lasers are amazing, has a chaingrab to about 40% if done right and that doesn't include a dair, has amazing camping, racking damage, and decent kill power. The reason it's only slightly his advantage is because he's easily gimped and we can rack up damage easily on him. If we couldn't do that, we'd be screwed.

Needles are also really good, and Sheik has more consistent combos at all percents with F-tilt. The only reason it's slightly in Sheik's favor is because we rack on damage to her easily and can gimp her.

Yes she does basically do stuff to Mario that Falco can do, and she does it really well. Specifically she outcamps you, can outspace you, and play a more consistent stage control game. Yeah I mean she doesn't really just run over Mario and destroy him. She's just a better character.

Having to play a MU differently is different does not mean it's a bad MU. It means we have to adpat. I believe Shiek doesn't have good priority and therefore Nair is very helpful. We can always approach on the groung and RAR bairs if being in the air so much isn't good.

Y'know I'm a little bit tired of people trying to say this character doesn't have good priority when really...her priority is just fine. Her well spaced B-airs and F-airs beat stuff, and her N-air is just as useful as yours. Her F-tilt and D-tilt are also respectable poke options that outrange a lot of Mario's stuff. The only thing you can N-air out of really is repeated F-tilt juggles, but otherwise she really has no problem outspacing it.

She's not a bad matchup for Mario. She's just slightly advantaged, but what I AM suggesting is that most Mario players do not know how to play this matchup. Similar to how some of us get destroyed by Donkey Kong, which is technically a neutral or favorable matchup for Mario.

Against a good Sheik, if you play Mario like you would in most other matchups, you will get destroyed. She counters that playstyle solidly, and that's the main point people need to recognize.

 

[-Mars-]

This MU is even...racking damage means nothing if you can't kill and believe me...It takes Sheik forever to kill Mario

PvP Vs CvC is all the same if both players know the M...Doesn't apply to all MU's though sadly...

I don't know if you have a mental handicap or what but it's been said like three times that Sheik has GR>DACUS on Mario.

Edit: I got Mario experience as well.

 

[Famous]

Yea, one set-up doesn't necessarily makes a big difference on a MU though...If that was the case other MU's for Mario would look like **** just from one disadvantage

I must not have a mental handicap since from my POV, the things that are pointed out as a "disadvantage" in the MU for Mario, I have no problem with whatsoever...

 

[-Mars-]

Being able to kill at 100 off of a grab is pretty big I would think. SO unless your character has a ton of range or aerial movement speed and is very difficult to grab(which Mario is not), then it is a factor. Especially when you're claiming Mario lives forever lmao.

I'm only saying it's 55-45 Sheik lol i'm not making some outrageous claim or something.

 

[Inferno3044]

I will agree with even or 55:45 Sheik. I'll go with the majority on this.

On another note, I was thinking of switching MK's ratio to 7:3 MK. Does anybody disagree with that?

EDIT: After rereading the our MK discussion it seems like most people believe it's 65:35. I probably won't change it.

 

[Matt07]

Metaknight is no way 7:3.

 

[Inferno3044]

I might be wrong. I don't think I've played any MK's around my level recently. I've played them and they are much better than me. Might be why I think that.

 

[Matt07]

Yea it always happens when we're unfamiliar with a match-up. MK is 6:4 too 65:35 in my opinion.

Fireballs are good at stopping planking.

 

[Matador]

I just feel like I don't know the match-up as well as I should. It's easier to fight MK's frame traps n such when you know when MK can reliably get them off.

For example, his staple ones : Shuttle-loop -> Dsmash. Dtilt -> SHFair...that kind of thing.

To me, the MK match-up is such a daunting one because we generally try to punish what we can't and not punishing what we can...

Long story short...you can put 70:30 if you want, lmao. I think it's a 65:35 personally tho.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm gonna keep it as is. Let's finish up Sheik.

 

[hippiedude92]

should be 67:33 imo

mk is still hard and gay

nj is mk central fml

 

[Matador]

I hate those silly looking ratios, lmao. We should just have four ratios...

We win good!

We win!

We lose...

We lose baaaaad....

 

[Matt07]

Lol Hippie show me what you do vs MK (try to get vids up, or if you have them saved on a SD card send them too me) I'll help you out.

 

[Kanzaki]

I vote Lucas gets changed to

51.9853 :: 48.0147

 

[HeroMystic]

I hate those silly looking ratios, lmao. We should just have four ratios...

We win good!

We win!

We lose...

We lose baaaaad....

lol, I'd be all for that.

Shiek MU seems to be dead. Who's next?

 

[hippiedude92]

lol matt, i lost to a dair/nado camping mother****ing MK FML.... and he spaced my dtilt/ftilt (like really good spaced near tipper range) on my shield where i cant punish... so hard to get inside, if it wasnt for that ****ing pool match i lost... i woulda made it out lol..

and the silly ratios aren't that silly imo lol at least theyre the most accurate imo

have we done pikachu? if not go go?

 

[Matt07]

Dealing with d-air, either wait it out and use up B too punish, if he's that high up, just let him d-air, and wait, once he loses his jumps go in and punish.

Tornado: Just shield it. Don't run in and punish if he's in freefall cause he'll just use dsmash if he's close to the ground during free fall, just Fireball lulz. Charge f-smash if he uses it far away, and release it early cause the fire part will hit him, if you release it when he's too close, he'll get through and you eat Tornado. Or just full-hop Fireball. Up smash, works well too. And if you break a Tornado early, what they usually do is Drill Rush to the side they were going for (if they were Tornado'ing left, and you Fireball and break it, they'll immediately Drill Rush to the left if they put in wrong inputs.) I watch it happen quite a bit in matches.

For d-tilt, what I usually do is I spot-dodge, and dsmash. Sometimes since d-tilt has low hitstun, you can dsmash out of it when your hit by one. Sure other times you'll get tripped and can't get punished but meh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh, Pikachu feels recent, but anyhow, it's one of Mario's better matchups for sure.

Anyhow Pikachu really doesn't have anything really gay on Mario. Mario's attributes and movepool means he doesn't really get CGed, he can counter Pikachu's camping handily, he can EDGESTALL for as long as he wants with little fear of Pikachu's projectiles thanks to the Cape, plus Anther mentioned a while ago that QAing around aggressively is risky for Pikachu in this matchup if Mario does psychic Capes to reflect them. Plus, Pikachu sucks at kills, so Mario generally won't have trouble outlasting him KO percent wise due to his better weight.

Pikachu however has better priority on a lot of his moves, and you really have to play a good Pikachu to know how unpredictable his approach is, not to mention how gay his priority is on various moves. Most of his attacks extend a good bit past his hurtbox, so his range is to an extent deceptive (although bad, since you can trade hits favorably with B-airs).

Some things that are worth noting:

If he D-smashes your shield, you can drop shield and F-smash him after the last hit.

His F-smash is strongest at point blank.

I really want to play a good Pikachu offline, but those are like...really rare lol. I did get to play Volt_Storm (a Japanese player) and I think K Prime on wifi and learned a few tricks from their Pikachus.

 

[mars16]

Pikachu


Yes.... He has High priority attacks and good Projectile, his annoying thunder
and Down smash


But Mario has skillz to

Mario can reflect that spark ball and easily DI that Thunder and Mario also has better aerial game....1'm not shoreI

And For his down smash........... If you catch on quick enough then punish that ****


Still I find this to be a disedvantege (Grameer bad) for Mario but not by much

 

[Famous]

I love the fact that FLUDD stops Pikas UpB momentum regardless if it's charged or not...

 

[Matt07]

Famous, do you mean sideB?

And not that spamming Jab is a good idea, but doesn't Mario's first Jab cancel out Thunder Bolt?

 

[Famous]

Lol, that too...

If you shoot FLUDD at pikas second part of upB, it sends him upward stopping his momentum charged or not...I usually just shoot some water out just incase pika doesn't sweet spot the ledge recovering.

Yea, jab cancels tbolt.

 

[Inferno3044]

I guess Pikachu's next. What should I put for Sheik. As much as I love Matador's idea, it doesn't fall into any of the 4.

 

[mars16]

55:45 Sheik

Or
We loose
-----

 

[Matt07]

Are we still going to discuss Pikachu, or move on?

It pretty much died after 2 days ago .

 

[The Master of Mario]

Shiek Moves very slowly in the air though the air so If you pressure Sheik into jumping Approaching will be easier. She won't be able to move out attacks like D-air that can punish her attempts to air dodge. It can also easily lead to tech chases where Shiek tries to N-air and you punish with OOS attacks. Dash attack also knocks Sheik Up and behind so that she cannot use her N-air.

 

[Inferno3044]

My bad about this. I guess I'll put 55:45 Shiek unless people disagree.

I guess Pikachu is up now.

 

[mars16]

Pikachu is can be a challange....

Pikachu is a strong light weight character, moves fast and has good specails like his thunder witch could just come out of nowwhere if you don't see it coming.
He has good smash attacks.... his down smash is good for damaging and thunder can help it if enemy goes directly up. His Forsmash has high knockback and does a good amount of damage when even when not charged.
Pikachu's weakest area is his Aerials..... soooooo...... there not that good.....( )

Pikachu can possibly chain grab but I don't now if he can chaingrab Mario... can he?

Extra - Pikachu is a good dodger and has nice DI skills

_________________________________________________________________

 

[Famous]

Pika can only grab us twice at 0% if they buffer the grab extremely well...

 

[Matt07]

Wow, Pikachu discussion has been kinda dead...Is anything much really left to say, or should we discuss someone else.

 

[Juushichi]

Have we had any of our Mario's go and play good Pikachu's? Has anyone gone and played Anther or anything? Could always go and get Pika mains over here for another opinion.

 

[Famous]

Me and Boss Played PikaPika and Anther...but that was awhile ago...Pikas metagame changed quite a bit since then.

 

[mars16]

How did it go?

 

[Famous]

I played Pika in a set and won 2-1 if remember correctly...All 3 matches were close besides the 3rd one...I got a fludd-cape kill early...I think Boss and Anther played 2 games and Boss lost the 1st and barely won the 2nd...He randomly threw out a cape and it hit...Boss played Anther in tourney later and lost, though I think he went Luigi >.>

These were friendlies btw

As for what I can remember doing in the MU, I was spamming FLUDD everytime I knocked Pika offstage since I recently found out beforehand that FLUDD stop Pikas UpB momentum charged or uncharged(the 2nd Part of quick attack). Pika can't UpB though the water so they fly straight up vertically from the water in most cases...

I didn't really camp in the MU, I would just approach with Power Shielding and jabs...At low percentages Pika would try to grab me for the Fthrow-USmash set-up when I appoached like that...I basically read that and punished him for missing the grabs

Pika would try to ledge guard me with thunder but I just cape stalled to get around it...

Pika was juggling me pretty well at low percentages with Uair and would Nair me after 2-5 hits...

Hmmm, Pika killed me mostly with offstage gimps at high percentages since Pikas FSmash barely connects in the MU if your spacing properly...

Pikas DSmash is annoying even if you know how to DI out of it...Pika would spotdodge-DSmash if I pressured his shield too much.

As for the footstool set-ups Pika has, they only work if you give Pika time to do it...But be aware that Pika can pull it off if your caught offguard...

I don't really remember anything else....I think I played him with Luigi afterwards... Sorry for the wall of text

 

[mars16]

I need to remember to use fludd more often

 

[Juushichi]

It's fine. Yeah, I also need to work on using FLUDD more in all of my matches. Played Framerate, Sil and T-800 a bunch lately and cape has really helped. FLUDD setups might be another tool to use. Sil can sort of play Pikachu, too.

 

[Inferno3044]

let me get some pikachu players because i've been slacking.

 

[Leaf.]

I totally hate the cape when fighting Mario, it looks like he is about to get hit by a thunder, but pulls it at the last second, meaning I can't edge if I don't time it perfect.

Plus, can't fireballs cancel T-jolts? If it doesn't hit you in the face or go over the fire, I think that means someone has to approach.

Huh, I wouldn't know honestly. I don't play against Mario much, but if anyone wants to test it, I'm about to put my FC on here and you have about 7 hours or so after this post is made. Just...I'm not the best Chu' out there.
And, probably about 4 hours after this edit. :D

 

[mars16]

I now its to late alreeady...

But I would have played you if I had my wii but its somewhere else right now...

 

[BoTastic!]

I play anther a lot. I also have liken 7 matches online vs him, even tho they were dumm friendlies.