The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Inferno3044]

Peach beats Mario. He can't approach her if she camps, and she has better approach tools to get a lead.

She also edgeguards him pretty solidly and can outspace him very safely.

The whole approach thing is theorycraft. You practically just said if Peach camps there's nothing Mario can do and she wins. That's just wrong. I have good people with characters that I believe space better than Peach (Marth and MK mainly) and I've gotten in and hit them. I'm just putting out that Mario has some very fast aerials and definite can rack damage on Peach. Peach I believe racks damage a bit better though.

I'm curious about her spacing. Other than weaving in and out via floating, how does she space? What moves does she use?

 

[Matador]

I'm so ****ing pissed right now. I had the most amazing reply ever and I lost it cuz firefox closed. I swear to God it would've made you **** ur screens.

....Life is so cruel...T_T

I'll try to rewrite it...but it may have to wait till tonight.

Edit: Omfg, it was my longest post ever...wtf. Firefox even had the nerve to wait till I was done to close.

 

[HeroMystic]

That's why I started writing in notepad when I make long posts, so stuff like that wouldn't happen.

 

[Praxis]

Peach can camp.?

Fludd>Turnips,

even Fludd would break your floating game, so, it doesn't work that much,

and about her approach, most Peaches do approach only with glide toss or dash attack, Fair too and a few other things but...they're very repetitive, being calm and patient is the key here...

Uh...have you ever played a good Peach?

Approaching with glide toss and dash attack?
FLUDD messing up our floating game and turnips?

LOL

If the Peach is just floating in front of you, the Peach is bad.

-Peach can only rack damage and almost never kill us when she's edguarding us but we CAN kill her if we're edgeguarding...

Edgecancel turnip pull > turnip throw, second jump back on stage to edgecancelled turnip to Z-drop, float against the ledge.

Mario is forced to jump to avoid the thrown turnip, and cannot approach from below due to the turnip. Peach can release float to edgehog on reaction to Mario's up-B.

If Mario is recovering high, Peach uthrows out of the two edgecancelled turnip pulls, making a wall, and jumps and chases Mario through his attempt to make it through the small opening.

Peach edgeguards REALLY well. It's pretty obvious you know little about the character.

The whole approach thing is theorycraft. You practically just said if Peach camps there's nothing Mario can do and she wins. That's just wrong. I have good people with characters that I believe space better than Peach (Marth and MK mainly) and I've gotten in and hit them. I'm just putting out that Mario has some very fast aerials and definite can rack damage on Peach. Peach I believe racks damage a bit better though.

I'm curious about her spacing. Other than weaving in and out via floating, how does she space? What moves does she use?

Peach isn't going to float much against Mario at all >_> SH fairs (with turnip in hand via Z-drop) autocancels to wall like Marth (and it gives MK a very hard time in approach). SH dair can have a floated aerial buffered at the end. Bair shieldpushes too far for Mario to shieldgrab and comes out quickly. Nair comes out in three frames, jab comes out in two frames, turnips OOS will punish anything Mario does on Peach's shield and Peach can perform all aerials while floating (which she can do OOS and escapes shield faster than dropping it).

Peach is going to space like Marth, except with a projectile in hand half the time that can punish aerials on shield and a much better edgeguarding game but less kill power.

 

[Matador]

Uh...have you ever played a good Peach?

Approaching with glide toss and dash attack?
FLUDD messing up our floating game and turnips?

LOL

If the Peach is just floating in front of you, the Peach is bad.

Fludd works VERY well against Peach specifically because her aerials all outprioritize Fludd and the way that she zones makes her vulnerable to it. Not only turnips and floating, but spacing in general is screwed up by Fludd, and since the Peach's major advantages vs Mario hinge on that, it's a very crucial part of the match-up.

To ignore this is not recommended.

Edgecancel turnip pull > turnip throw, second jump back on stage to edgecancelled turnip to Z-drop, float against the ledge.

Mario is forced to jump to avoid the thrown turnip, and cannot approach from below due to the turnip. Peach can release float to edgehog on reaction to Mario's up-B.

If Mario is recovering high, Peach uthrows out of the two edgecancelled turnip pulls, making a wall, and jumps and chases Mario through his attempt to make it through the small opening.

Peach edgeguards REALLY well. It's pretty obvious you know little about the character.

Mario's recovery is a little more versatile than straight-forward DJ -> upb...There's the cape for reflecting turnips, fireballs to protect recovery, Fludd anti-edgeguard, capestall, and, perhaps the biggest hole in this post, upB beats turnips.

Peach will probably gimp Mario during the set, but he's not by any means shut down. He has too many options for Peach to cover all of them simutaneously.

Peach isn't going to float much against Mario at all >_> SH fairs (with turnip in hand via Z-drop) autocancels to wall like Marth (and it gives MK a very hard time in approach). SH dair can have a floated aerial buffered at the end. Bair shieldpushes too far for Mario to shieldgrab and comes out quickly. Nair comes out in three frames, jab comes out in two frames, turnips OOS will punish anything Mario does on Peach's shield and Peach can perform all aerials while floating (which she can do OOS and escapes shield faster than dropping it).

Peach is going to space like Marth, except with a projectile in hand half the time that can punish aerials on shield and a much better edgeguarding game but less kill power.

UpB and Fludd both can get through the holes in Peach's brickwalls effectively, especially if upB is done OOS. Even without float, they're both very reliable options for getting inside her range or keeping her away if we need space.

Turnips can't punish everything OOS. Capejump (Shown at 6:13-6:17 here) and SHDair -> Fullhop Nair are safe on shield. Fireballs also assist in shield pressure if they aren't powershielded since we can follow directly behind them.

I'll agree that Peach is similar Marth in reference to spacing and walling Mario in SOME ways, but they're two completely different match-ups.

I'll try to redo my write-up tonight. If you're on, I'll be eager to hear your response.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edgecancel turnip pull > turnip throw, second jump back on stage to edgecancelled turnip to Z-drop, float against the ledge.

Mario is forced to jump to avoid the thrown turnip, and cannot approach from below due to the turnip. Peach can release float to edgehog on reaction to Mario's up-B.

If Mario is recovering high, Peach uthrows out of the two edgecancelled turnip pulls, making a wall, and jumps and chases Mario through his attempt to make it through the small opening.

Peach edgeguards REALLY well. It's pretty obvious you know little about the character.

All of these are beaten by good DI and intelligent Cape stall.

Peach isn't going to float much against Mario at all >_> SH fairs (with turnip in hand via Z-drop) autocancels to wall like Marth (and it gives MK a very hard time in approach). SH dair can have a floated aerial buffered at the end. Bair shieldpushes too far for Mario to shieldgrab and comes out quickly. Nair comes out in three frames, jab comes out in two frames, turnips OOS will punish anything Mario does on Peach's shield and Peach can perform all aerials while floating (which she can do OOS and escapes shield faster than dropping it).

Mario's B-air spaced properly also shield pushes too much for Turnip OOS to be reliable either (or shieldgrab). F-smash outranges all of Peach's moves, and Mario also has a 2 frame Jab that cancels into D-smash legitimately on Peach (2 Jabs D-smash does 20%). Mario's spacing game also has Cape, which allows Mario to hover in blindspots AND reflect projectiles.

Peach is going to space like Marth, except with a projectile in hand half the time that can punish aerials on shield and a much better edgeguarding game but less kill power.

Lol no, Marth edgeguards Mario better. Marth does a much better job of covering any high recovery with higher mobility and faster and more powerful aerials that win against the dodge, and can immediately threaten observed low recoveries with F-airs that hit at a low angle, while Peach's F-air can be DIed more easily to a tolerable angle (and reacted to for that matter).

 

[Inferno3044]

Approaching with glide toss and dash attack?
FLUDD messing up our floating game and turnips?

LOL

LOL. You think FLUDD isn't gonna do anything. This will cause a lot of lag on your aerials. This also out-prioritizes turnips and gets rid of them iirc. If they don't they'll push the turnip like how it would with Snake's grenades.

If the Peach is just floating in front of you, the Peach is bad.

Of course Peach won't just be floating in front of you. She'll probably be doing something. If you use FLUDD while she is floating (including doing an aerial while floating) she will be sent upwards which highly messes up her spacing which is something that Peach players use.

Edgecancel turnip pull > turnip throw, second jump back on stage to edgecancelled turnip to Z-drop, float against the ledge.

Mario is forced to jump to avoid the thrown turnip, and cannot approach from below due to the turnip. Peach can release float to edgehog on reaction to Mario's up-B.

If Mario is recovering high, Peach uthrows out of the two edgecancelled turnip pulls, making a wall, and jumps and chases Mario through his attempt to make it through the small opening.

Peach edgeguards REALLY well. It's pretty obvious you know little about the character.

Two things I really want to say to this:

1. How often are you going to put us in these situations? Most of that can be avoided with good DI. Also you are taking our options into consideration. You are saying "if this happens then we're gonna lose a stock and you can't do a thing." At least for the first one we can dodge the turnip. We have cape stalling, and other stuff too.

2. Turnips are not a projectile. They are an item. We can simply catch them and it really solves a good amount of the problem.

Mario doesn't get gimped that easily. It's pretty obvious you know little about the character.

Peach isn't going to float much against Mario at all >_> SH fairs (with turnip in hand via Z-drop) autocancels to wall like Marth (and it gives MK a very hard time in approach). SH dair can have a floated aerial buffered at the end. Bair shieldpushes too far for Mario to shieldgrab and comes out quickly. Nair comes out in three frames, jab comes out in two frames, turnips OOS will punish anything Mario does on Peach's shield and Peach can perform all aerials while floating (which she can do OOS and escapes shield faster than dropping it).

Peach is going to space like Marth, except with a projectile in hand half the time that can punish aerials on shield and a much better edgeguarding game but less kill power.

Peach does have a good set of pressuring aerials and a good jab and nair when it comes to speed. Unfortunately, Mario overall outspeeds her. You are not gonna punish everything we do with turnip OOS. We can apply shield pressure and do a simple cross-up. This whole "turnip will destroy us" theory is being effectively countered imo by basic options any character can do.

Marth has a much better spacing tool. Peach doesn't have anything close to move that comes out on frame 4, is disjointed, has broken range, and can stop a good amount of the casts' air games.

 

[HeroMystic]

LOL. You think FLUDD isn't gonna do anything. This will cause a lot of lag on your aerials. This also out-prioritizes turnips and gets rid of them iirc. If they don't they'll push the turnip like how it would with Snake's grenades.

Any item that isn't a banana will effectively get pushed away by FLUDD to the point where you can pretty much say they'll disappear.

 

[TheCubeStud]

I love how one of the best Marios there is (me) and probably the best Peach there is (Praxis) who have even played each other, are saying the same things about the match-up, and no one believes us. It's awesome. Serisously, 6:4, Mario sucks people, get over it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not to discredit, but I never even heard of you. 60:40 Peach is fine with me, but it doesn't matter if there's no factual analysis out of it.

 

[Matador]

I love how one of the best Marios there is (me) and probably the best Peach there is (Praxis) who have even played each other, are saying the same things about the match-up, and no one believes us. It's awesome. Serisously, 6:4, Mario sucks people, get over it.

You could just be playing the match-up wrong...

If you play this match-up like any other, you get wrecked.

 

[BoTastic!]

Expect friendlies from me Dark pch if I come to Apex, lol. I'm still going with 55:45 peach.

 

[TheCubeStud]

I'm much more in favor of the theory that a lot of people come in and think, "well based off that one guy who I can't remember and played Peach, this is what happens and why." Also, as I've said to so many people, the match-up ratios people put out on this site make Brawl apparently the most balanced game in history. This is reinforcing my belief of that. Half the time it seems like people just say "lol I know a guy who plays X, I **** him, it's not such a bad match-up."

Do people realize that a 6:4 only means that out of 10 games it's only 1 game from being an even match-up? Anyway, I'm about to start my rant on the SWF MU chart system, and it's way too long and takes too much effort. Must sleep for Tourneyplay.

Seriously, 6:4.

 

[Matador]

I'm much more in favor of the theory that a lot of people come in and think, "well based off that one guy who I can't remember and played Peach, this is what happens and why." Also, as I've said to so many people, the match-up ratios people put out on this site make Brawl apparently the most balanced game in history. This is reinforcing my belief of that. Half the time it seems like people just say "lol I know a guy who plays X, I **** him, it's not such a bad match-up."

Do people realize that a 6:4 only means that out of 10 games it's only 1 game from being an even match-up? Anyway, I'm about to start my rant on the SWF MU chart system, and it's way too long and takes too much effort. Must sleep for Tourneyplay.

Seriously, 6:4.

Old news buddy, people have been saying this since Melee. Match-up ratios are far from perfect but you coming in and telling us a ratio then expecting us to blindly fall in line behind you without thoroughly explaining why is unrealistic and stupid. Don't expect it to work.

Besides, actually learning the match-up >>> deciding an arbitrary ratio. Knowledge gained from discussion is much more valuable than picking a ratio out of a hat and moving on. If you're gonna propose something, then let us know why.

 

[Praxis]

Hey Stud, walk up and kick me at TourneyPlay tomorrow.

I'm not gonna stay in this thread and argue. I'll leave it with this comment; I find people's ideas on Peach extremely amusing. Catching turnips, approaching with float... xD


@ Inferno:

I'm not claiming Peach gimps Mario "easily", but she has a solid gimp game. The comment I was replying to said Peach will "never" kill Mario while edgeguarding. It's not the level of guaranteed kill she has on Olimar, Link, or Ganondorf when they pass stage lip height, but she does have the possibility.

Peach can usually get one gimp on Marth per match, for comparison. I don't think we have a reason to argue on this point, I wasn't even replying to you.

As to FLUDD, I'm not going to throw turnips at a distance or float from any sort of range, which is why I find the concept silly. All of Peach's aerials autocancel, so I don't know where you're getting "aerial lag" from either.

 

[The Master of Mario]

"Peach can usually get one gimp on Marth per match, for comparison. I don't think we have a reason to argue on this point, I wasn't even replying to you."

It's a poor comparison since Mario has a slower fall speed and Wall Jump for additional vertical Height and FLUDD and Cape as protection off-stage. Marth's recovery is different to say the least.

 

[Matador]

Hey Stud, walk up and kick me at TourneyPlay tomorrow.

I'm not gonna stay in this thread and argue. I'll leave it with this comment; I find people's ideas on Peach extremely amusing. Catching turnips, approaching with float... xD

Lol, I find myself giving less and less of a **** about match-up discussion. Nobody wants to reach a conclusion or figure out what the match-up really is. It always devolves into "you don't know my character like I do!"

Lmao, I know my Mario has an 80:20 vs Peach.

 

[Praxis]

But seriously...someone suggested catching Peach's turnips! xD
C'mon, that's just too good.

 

[Dark.Pch]

<---wants chocolate milk

Are we going to integrate it into this match-up thread or start your own specifically for filling out your template?

I don't think Peach has an answer for an extremely defensive Mario like Vato vs Peach. It seems like her offensive options are limited if you decide not to approach. It makes floating unsafe since there are constantly fireballs being lobbed at you, and unless you're constantly power-shielding, your approach via glide-tossing or spacing aerials will often be unsuccessful if we're retreating full-hopped fireballs.

If Peach DOES happen to get close, I think our OOS options protect us rather nicely. I think if played this way, it's pretty even.

It's Not hard for Peach to get inside a campy/defeneve Mario. She does not need to be floating to get to you. And when she is not floating, her s\combat speed is increased.

Non floating Peach- Increase in combat speed and Pressure game.

Floating Peach- Speed is a lil slow but have good evasion and can be hard to hit. Spacing also increases a lil. But it is better when moves are short hopped.

If Peach gets close to Mario (which she has no problem doing) It can be hard for Mario to do much cause of her spacing and pressure. Only way for him to stop this is timed up-B OoS.

Fireballs are not a problem for Peach ansd should never be a problem unless the Peach player does not know the match up or playing basic. Your fireballs are not luigis.

Dark.Pch I don't know what you're talking about with the turnip trick. Honestly, I don't think much has changed since the last couple of times. It was 55:45 Peach before and I see that as a reasonable ratio.

Talking about this:

I like toss a turnip, you cape it, I toad the relfected turnip and you die from the spores :]

GG?

lol. Was a nice thought, but we have Dark.Pch.

And then you wonder why I seriously don't like you. I have not started anything in here, just debabing wioth the Mario players noce and smooth. So do me a favor and keep mess like this out of here. Seems like you want something to happen so you can shine. Pull a stun like this again and I will not hold back to report your post. You are not funny. Not in the mood to fight with your *** here or have anything jump in to start something cause of your dumb comments. Only thing I am gonna say to you in here.

The whole approach thing is theorycraft. You practically just said if Peach camps there's nothing Mario can do and she wins. That's just wrong. I have good people with characters that I believe space better than Peach (Marth and MK mainly) and I've gotten in and hit them. I'm just putting out that Mario has some very fast aerials and definite can rack damage on Peach. Peach I believe racks damage a bit better though.

I'm curious about her spacing. Other than weaving in and out via floating, how does she space? What moves does she use?

Her Spacing tools:

Fair
Bair
Nair (ground floated. Can be in the air too but have to be on point)
Dair
Fsmash
Dtilt
Jabs (Yes, dead serious)
Glide tosses( To help space moves or lead to set ups. The distances one glide tosses a turnip can lead to things like some of the stuff I made on the list of Peach spacing moves.

My Moves have range. Marios only quick move with range to space well is his Bair. And pressured jab cancels to Dsmash But Peach has lots of options to space both in the air and in the ground

Peach is great at spacing. And mixed with her Floating Where you can move back and fourth when you please, Peach can be harder to hit then people think. Fair and Back air are good for spacing. For those not good or familiar with spacing with peach here is how it goes. When you Float and do a fair or bair, Move back a lil. Now if you miss or they sheild your attack, they cant really punish you for it cause you backed away while attacking, thus your to hard to hit. Try to hit with the tip of the attack. Your wont be that close to get punished if you miss or they block your attack. Also the height where you float depends on this kind of spacing. You can also space on the ground. Just by hitting with the tip of your attacks.

For one thing, you got the Dtilt Slide. It helps with my spacing and evasion. You get 2 things out of this. Really three cause you can counter attack. This is what I do with it:

Dtilt>slide>Jab
Dtilt>slide>Fsmash
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Fair
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Nair
Dtilt>slide>Turnip>Glide toss>Dtilt>slide> w/e you want after
Dtilt>slide>Toad (mindgame material)
Dtilt>slide>reverse bair
Dtilt>slide>Dair (if they come to you and wanna attack from the ground.)
Dtilt>slide>Dtilt>Slide>w/e

All this leads to many things and can be mixed and match. You can get pressure, spacing, evasion, and counter attacking all at once. And thanks to Peach's range, It would be hard for people to touch you. This is really effective against fast characters. This one thing improves Peach spacing by alot to create this annoying wall.

Expect friendlies from me Dark pch if I come to Apex, lol. I'm still going with 55:45 peach.

I remember you saying that Peach does not win this fight at all. Now you think she slighty wins. What changed your mind?

I have a tournament to get ready for, I'll cover other points in this thread that I left alone when I get back.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm much more in favor of the theory that a lot of people come in and think, "well based off that one guy who I can't remember and played Peach, this is what happens and why." Also, as I've said to so many people, the match-up ratios people put out on this site make Brawl apparently the most balanced game in history. This is reinforcing my belief of that. Half the time it seems like people just say "lol I know a guy who plays X, I **** him, it's not such a bad match-up."

Lol, I find myself giving less and less of a **** about match-up discussion. Nobody wants to reach a conclusion or figure out what the match-up really is. It always devolves into "you don't know my character like I do!"

You guys summed up what I've basically been saying for the past two weeks. Maybe I should share my template with the tactical boards.

Btw, once we're done with Peach, I wish to go to Ike, since I can easily participate in that and give a full analysis with the format.

 

[Inferno3044]

Do people realize that a 6:4 only means that out of 10 games it's only 1 game from being an even match-up? Anyway, I'm about to start my rant on the SWF MU chart system, and it's way too long and takes too much effort. Must sleep for Tourneyplay.

Seriously, 6:4.

Technically She'll have 6 wins for each of your 4 wins so you need 2 wins for every 10. Not just this, but that idea is also theoretical. I do not think Peach "wins" this MU. To say someone "wins" means a solid advantage (60:40 or greater). I do not think that nor have I been persuaded to think that nor will I ever say Peach wins. If you ask me about this MU I will say Peach has a slight advantage and I have been persuaded that I was wrong about this MU being even until I play a really good Peach and get more experience on it.

Hey Stud, walk up and kick me at TourneyPlay tomorrow.

I'm not gonna stay in this thread and argue. I'll leave it with this comment; I find people's ideas on Peach extremely amusing. Catching turnips, approaching with float... xD

I don't see what's so bad about catching turnips. You're putting this lol on it like it's a dumb idea. Please tell me why it's dumb.

@ Inferno:

I'm not claiming Peach gimps Mario "easily", but she has a solid gimp game. The comment I was replying to said Peach will "never" kill Mario while edgeguarding. It's not the level of guaranteed kill she has on Olimar, Link, or Ganondorf when they pass stage lip height, but she does have the possibility.

Peach can usually get one gimp on Marth per match, for comparison. I don't think we have a reason to argue on this point, I wasn't even replying to you.

As to FLUDD, I'm not going to throw turnips at a distance or float from any sort of range, which is why I find the concept silly. All of Peach's aerials autocancel, so I don't know where you're getting "aerial lag" from either.

I'll agree with the solid gimp game because it is good and she'll definitely gimp us more than we will gimp her. The difference is that Mario has a couple mixups in his recovery that Marth doesn't (fireballs, cape stall, etc).

To the floating thing I'm getting a signal from you saying Peach never floats. I'm pretty sure that's incorrect because it has some very good uses and I've watched a Peach vid or two with some floating put to good use. To me, it seems that you just don't know what we are talking about with FLUDD or FIHL. This vid should clear it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQfKZ-FYUHs

To sum it up, basically you do an attack that hits the water and you get hit lag from it making you punishable. This vid also shows that it messes up your spacing. FIHL works very well with slow moves (fair) and multi hit(dair)

But seriously...someone suggested catching Peach's turnips! xD
C'mon, that's just too good.

Explain

It's Not hard for Peach to get inside a campy/defeneve Mario. She does not need to be floating to get to you. And when she is not floating, her s\combat speed is increased.

Non floating Peach- Increase in combat speed and Pressure game.

Floating Peach- Speed is a lil slow but have good evasion and can be hard to hit. Spacing also increases a lil. But it is better when moves are short hopped.

Our combat speed is still faster. I really like this though. Some good information about Peach.

If Peach gets close to Mario (which she has no problem doing) It can be hard for Mario to do much cause of her spacing and pressure. Only way for him to stop this is timed up-B OoS.

Fireballs are not a problem for Peach ansd should never be a problem unless the Peach player does not know the match up or playing basic. Your fireballs are not luigis.

It's kinda funny that If Mario gets close, I think Peach will have a hard time getting out due to our quick barrage of aerials. Peach probably would be a bit harder to get in than the other way around.

Talking about this:

I like toss a turnip, you cape it, I toad the relfected turnip and you die from the spores :]

GG?

What if we catch the turnip? I know Praxis thinks I'm sounding stupid but I stick by this. I wanna know what Peach would do.

And then you wonder why I seriously don't like you. I have not started anything in here, just debabing wioth the Mario players noce and smooth. So do me a favor and keep mess like this out of here. Seems like you want something to happen so you can shine. Pull a stun like this again and I will not hold back to report your post. You are not funny. Not in the mood to fight with your *** here or have anything jump in to start something cause of your dumb comments. Only thing I am gonna say to you in here.

I'm supporting this. He is giving legit statements. He isn't going "you're wrong," but rather "Peach can do this"

Her Spacing tools:

Fair
Bair
Nair (ground floated. Can be in the air too but have to be on point)
Dair
Fsmash
Dtilt
Jabs (Yes, dead serious)
Glide tosses( To help space moves or lead to set ups. The distances one glide tosses a turnip can lead to things like some of the stuff I made on the list of Peach spacing moves.

My Moves have range. Marios only quick move with range to space well is his Bair. And pressured jab cancels to Dsmash But Peach has lots of options to space both in the air and in the ground

Peach is great at spacing. And mixed with her Floating Where you can move back and fourth when you please, Peach can be harder to hit then people think. Fair and Back air are good for spacing. For those not good or familiar with spacing with peach here is how it goes. When you Float and do a fair or bair, Move back a lil. Now if you miss or they sheild your attack, they cant really punish you for it cause you backed away while attacking, thus your to hard to hit. Try to hit with the tip of the attack. Your wont be that close to get punished if you miss or they block your attack. Also the height where you float depends on this kind of spacing. You can also space on the ground. Just by hitting with the tip of your attacks.

For one thing, you got the Dtilt Slide. It helps with my spacing and evasion. You get 2 things out of this. Really three cause you can counter attack. This is what I do with it:

Dtilt>slide>Jab
Dtilt>slide>Fsmash
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Fair
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Nair
Dtilt>slide>Turnip>Glide toss>Dtilt>slide> w/e you want after
Dtilt>slide>Toad (mindgame material)
Dtilt>slide>reverse bair
Dtilt>slide>Dair (if they come to you and wanna attack from the ground.)
Dtilt>slide>Dtilt>Slide>w/e

All this leads to many things and can be mixed and match. You can get pressure, spacing, evasion, and counter attacking all at once. And thanks to Peach's range, It would be hard for people to touch you. This is really effective against fast characters. This one thing improves Peach spacing by alot to create this annoying wall.


Would relating her spacing to Wario be sort of accurate? I didn't know Peach's bair was a spacing tool. Kinda seems like it doesn't have much range. Mario can combo Peach also, just not with all this fancy complex stuff.

I remember you saying that Peach does not win this fight at all. Now you think she slighty wins. What changed your mind?[/QUOTE]

I know this isn't directed to me, but I also thought this was even. I was enlightened on some really solid stuff Peach has. I still don't think it's a solid advantage. Bo might have a similar reason to mine.

 

[Matador]

It's Not hard for Peach to get inside a campy/defeneve Mario. She does not need to be floating to get to you. And when she is not floating, her s\combat speed is increased.

Non floating Peach- Increase in combat speed and Pressure game.

Floating Peach- Speed is a lil slow but have good evasion and can be hard to hit. Spacing also increases a lil. But it is better when moves are short hopped.

If Peach gets close to Mario (which she has no problem doing) It can be hard for Mario to do much cause of her spacing and pressure. Only way for him to stop this is timed up-B OoS.

Fireballs are not a problem for Peach ansd should never be a problem unless the Peach player does not know the match up or playing basic. Your fireballs are not luigis.

Take a look at this vid.

Painful, I know, but what would you have done differently and where? Notice that Vato SDs twice and L33T only begins to catch up when Vato approaches. If he remains in his own safe zone and doesn't approach Peach's near broken spacing game, he's fine.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Take a look at this vid.

Isn't that on Wi Fi?
Just throwing it out :x

The reason why we don't advise catching Turnips is that its a lot of effort for such a small reward. Its not like you can spam them like Peach can and afford to throw them all over the place. Peach will be throwing her Turnips at around mid distance where they will at least connect with something. Going in to catch it risks you getting hit by the Turnip and a potential follow up

I think the reason we're so skeptical with FLUDD is that (well from my point of view) it doesn't really...well, get anybody anywhere. Sorry if I sound ignorant but all it does push people back or make them stay in the air longer. Peach isn't going to be throwing aerials out at such a distance as the video shows and I'm still not convinced that it'll allow Mario to punish anyway, the lag from FLUDD isn't paticularly small. All of Peach's aerials autocancel very well so its not like FLUDD can force a bad landing on any of them

Generally, Peach's do use Floating but not as an approach, it normally used as a baiting option within mid combat. Besides, IMO Peach shouldn't be approaching from the air anyway

Fireballs are nice but they are somewhat telegraphed and have some nasty ending lag. B reversed aerial fireballs are great but where do you go when you're coming down? On a stage like Rainbow Cruise (is that a good CP for Mario?) I can see them being quite useful due being in the air a lot of the time but on other stages where things tend to be more grounded not as much

 

[HeroMystic]

I think the reason we're so skeptical with FLUDD is that (well from my point of view) it doesn't really...well, get anybody anywhere. Sorry if I sound ignorant but all it does push people back or make them stay in the air longer. Peach isn't going to be throwing aerials out at such a distance as the video shows and I'm still not convinced that it'll allow Mario to punish anyway, the lag from FLUDD isn't paticularly small. All of Peach's aerials autocancel very well so its not like FLUDD can force a bad landing on any of them

Kay, look at this then: 0:12. It's pretty much a perfect example.

 

[Inferno3044]

The reason why we don't advise catching Turnips is that its a lot of effort for such a small reward. Its not like you can spam them like Peach can and afford to throw them all over the place. Peach will be throwing her Turnips at around mid distance where they will at least connect with something. Going in to catch it risks you getting hit by the Turnip and a potential follow up

Fair enough. My main idea of catching them was because Praxis was talking about these elaborate turnip traps when we attempt to recover that would apparently force us to use our jump or else we'd get hit. My idea was if we catch the turnip then we aren't forced to use our jump or fall into whatever trap the turnip set up. If you glide tossing a turnip, I'm probably gonna either dodge or shield it.

Fireballs are nice but they are somewhat telegraphed and have some nasty ending lag. B reversed aerial fireballs are great but where do you go when you're coming down? On a stage like Rainbow Cruise (is that a good CP for Mario?) I can see them being quite useful due being in the air a lot of the time but on other stages where things tend to be more grounded not as much

B-reversed fireballs are just good in general because we can help us not fall into aerial traps. Personally, I'm not good on RC but it's a legit Mario stage.

I wanna talk a bit stage wise now. What are some good and bad Peach stages?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Kay, look at this then: 0:12. It's pretty much a perfect example.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain there was more than enough time for Marth to use another Fair, hell, even Counter Mario's Uair. Even an airdodge would have done the trick. And no offense but...that Marth wasn't paticularly great anyway

If someone had used a longer lasting aerial and therefore would have been open to punishment, couldn't the person just DI backwards to avoid any follow ups from Mario?

Fair enough. My main idea of catching them was because Praxis was talking about these elaborate turnip traps when we attempt to recover that would apparently force us to use our jump or else we'd get hit. My idea was if we catch the turnip then we aren't forced to use our jump or fall into whatever trap the turnip set up. If you glide tossing a turnip, I'm probably gonna either dodge or shield it.

Praxis' point is that if Peach gets it right, you have to do something to avoid the Turnip. Otherwise you'll get hit and at a high percentage which is what you'll most be looking at, this knockback will be enough to knock Mario away far enough. There's a Turnip trick involved with gimping Marth but I'm not sure if it could be applied here

If you want to catch the Turnip whilst recovering you have to perform some kind of action such as an airdodge or an attack (atm I honestly can't remember if you could Z catch) it. All of those options take time, by which you've potentially already fallen to far to recover back on stage

Well of course you'll want to shield/dodge the Turnip, Peach will be doing the same with your Fireballs and I highly encourage you to powershield her Turnips when you can. The problem is Peach's follow ups from the Turnip - chances are she isn't going to simply fall back and rinse/repeat because there's very little lag after throwing a Turnip. She might follow up with an aerials if she's thrown it in the air or a Jab or D Tilt or grab if she's on the ground, all of which pressurising the shield a fair bit

B-reversed fireballs are just good in general because we can help us not fall into aerial traps. Personally, I'm not good on RC but it's a legit Mario stage.

I wanna talk a bit stage wise now. What are some good and bad Peach stages?

I'm not saying B reversed Fireballs aren't good, indeed I would say its the best way of using them but I just advise clever use of them (which...you will be doing anyway lol) in case Peach runs in and powersheilds them. Just make sure you aren't going to get punished for using your fireballs and be wary when Peach has a Turnip in her hand as it gives her much faster, much longer ranged OoS counter attacks

Stage choices vs Peach are kind of a personal preferance really, there aren't any stages that are too horrible for Peach. I don't know what stages Mario is good on so I can't say a right lot about that

 

[HeroMystic]

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain there was more than enough time for Marth to use another Fair, hell, even Counter Mario's Uair. Even an airdodge would have done the trick. And no offense but...that Marth wasn't paticularly great anyway

If someone had used a longer lasting aerial and therefore would have been open to punishment, couldn't the person just DI backwards to avoid any follow ups from Mario?

It seems like whenever I bring up that video people always say "Well he should've done this!" In which case you're not seeing the point. His F-air lagged terribly due to FIHL, and he was pushed upwards in which case he became vulnerable. Furthermore he lost his spacing method because FLUDD screwed up his rhythm.

It puts you in an unexpected situation that's undesirable and demands you to react accordingly.

 

[Kanzaki]

The thing about videos is that people watch it after and be like "OOO I SHOULD OF DONE THIS INSTEAD OF THIS"... what people don't realize that MOST people, in the heat of a match, do stuff off of reaction, instead of something stupid, and then when they watch it after, they end up kicking themselves xD

 

[HeroMystic]

Yes, that's exactly it Kanzaki. It's even funnier when people criticize the video and then it happens to them in a match. Which is usually the case when it comes to FLUDD.

 

[Veggi]

Mystic, my Peach vs. your Mario next time I play against you. Not to prove anything because I've barely read any of this discussion and I don't really care about it, but to help you get a feel for the matchup.

Although I read something about FLUDD not being useful against Peach, haha.

 

[HeroMystic]

I've had my share of tournament-viable Peaches, but nothing top level. I'll take that offer though, you already enlightened me with your DK. XD

 

[mars16]

Peach vs Mario Overall
_____________
Peach
-----------
She can Float
Good air gamE
High priority attacks
Good recovery's......
Good counter.....Toad
Good projectile
?
Hard to gimp
-----------
She is lighter
Weaker ground game...She'd rather float then
??
__________
Mario
-------
Faster
Betterground game...She want be on the ground
Fludd, Messes up her Floating stuff
Heavier
???
?
Bair, Best for this battle
------------
Want be gimping her
Fire balls don't help as much as they do against others
Lower priority
____________
________

Rolling is limited, For Mario, rather Run
I'd say they Peadch kills faster, because of her Fair
Mario's sliding up smash Helps also sheild and grab, OOS Recovery
_______________


55:45 Peach or Maybe 60:40

 

[Veggi]

I've had my share of tournament-viable Peaches, but nothing top level. I'll take that offer though, you already enlightened me with your DK. XD

Have you played against Kyon before? He's a pretty cool Florida Peach guy.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Well I'm glad to actually see an application of FLUDD but...come on, in that example, the Marth had ample time to react. Either move back or if he could see Mario coming at him, move back and use Fair again

I understand the point of FLUDD but I'm just pointing out couldn't you just DI backwards if you get hit by the FLUDD?

And I'm not saying that someone could accidently misjudge the FLUDDs pushback and get punished by something, we all do stuff that we look back on and think 'Why on earth did I do that?' but then you have to start factoring player skill and mindgames and such...which doesn't really work when discussing match ups :/

 

[HeroMystic]

@Veggi: Nah, most Peaches I played were Out of State during Winterfest.

Well I'm glad to actually see an application of FLUDD but...come on, in that example, the Marth had ample time to react. Either move back or if he could see Mario coming at him, move back and use Fair again

I understand the point of FLUDD but I'm just pointing out couldn't you just DI backwards if you get hit by the FLUDD?

And I'm not saying that someone could accidently misjudge the FLUDDs pushback and get punished by something, we all do stuff that we look back on and think 'Why on earth did I do that?' but then you have to start factoring player skill and mindgames and such...which doesn't really work when discussing match ups :/

This isn't 2008. FLUDD's been utilized for these techniques for the longest time. People just brush it off as it "pshaw, that won't work on me!" even Mario mains don't use FLUDD to it's highest potential.

And DI is the wrong word. DI is specific for hitstun. This is hitlag. You can't move during hitlag. Now yes, you can move backwards after being FLUDDed to avoid follow-ups, but that just returns the fight to neutral stance. Like I said, it demands the player to be in a undesirable situation and react accordingly.

Here's another example, one where I actually lose at Winterfest: 1:48

You should also rethink your analysis on match-ups in general. The use of FLUDD isn't a mindgame. It's a positioning tool and negates options. Match-ups are all about options, punishing, captialization, and character attributes.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

This isn't 2008. FLUDD's been utilized for these techniques for the longest time. People just brush it off as it "pshaw, that won't work on me!" even Mario mains don't use FLUDD to it's highest potential.

And DI is the wrong word. DI is specific for hitstun. This is hitlag. You can't move during hitlag. Now yes, you can move backwards after being FLUDDed to avoid follow-ups, but that just returns the fight to neutral stance. Like I said, it demands the player to be in a undesirable situation and react accordingly.

Here's another example, one where I actually lose at Winterfest: 1:48

You should also rethink your analysis on match-ups in general. The use of FLUDD isn't a mindgame. It's a positioning tool and negates options. Match-ups are all about options, punishing, captialization, and character attributes.

Erm...I never said match ups weren't about those factors. I said that you shouldn't factor player skill and with that mindgames into match ups, or at the very least avoid including them

That's a much clearer example, thankyou. So basically, FLUDD is situational but has its applications in places

The only gripe I have with it could go quite wrong if the situation is misjudged (although thats true for anything) and is that like you said if the person moves back, the fight returns to neutral stance. Which doesn't really get anybody anywhere, kind of like Sonic's Side B cancel. But if your opponent is too close, isn't Mario open to punishment? I thought that running straight at FLUDD just made you stay still and only if it was fully charged? This is on the ground though, I can see FLUDD causing problems in the air but with the threat of fireballs I would argue that Peach shouldn't really be approaching from the air

Oh that reminds me, if Peach uses her Dash Attack on your sheild and she's close enough, you can actually shield the first hit and OoS Up Smash her before the 2nd hit comes out. I'm fairly confident you can but you might to make sure just incase

 

[Inferno3044]

That's a much clearer example, thankyou. So basically, FLUDD is situational but has its applications in places

The only gripe I have with it could go quite wrong if the situation is misjudged (although thats true for anything) and is that like you said if the person moves back, the fight returns to neutral stance. Which doesn't really get anybody anywhere, kind of like Sonic's Side B cancel. But if your opponent is too close, isn't Mario open to punishment? I thought that running straight at FLUDD just made you stay still and only if it was fully charged? This is on the ground though, I can see FLUDD causing problems in the air but with the threat of fireballs I would argue that Peach shouldn't really be approaching from the air

I guess you can say that FLUDD is situational, but I feel like saying situational means that it happen rarely which isn't true. It's mainly to be used to stop aerials and approaches. If they move back it's goes to a neutral stance which is not a bad thing. If the opponent is too close then Mario will get hit. I've never been punished for using FLUDD except that the hit still connects. It's a very good tool against aerials.

Does anyone have a problem with 55:45 Peach? That's our old ratio and not much has changed. It's also the ratio on the Peach boards.

 

[HeroMystic]

Erm...I never said match ups weren't about those factors. I said that you shouldn't factor player skill and with that mindgames into match ups, or at the very least avoid including them

Mindgames should be factored in, but not specifically. Mindgames specifically are based off of player skill and wit, with a risk-reward. Options, Margin of Error, and Punishment Factor are actually where "mindgames" are dully noted. I suggest looking on the Mario board for the "new way to look at match-ups" where I talk about this in full detail.

That's a much clearer example, thankyou. So basically, FLUDD is situational but has its applications in places

Yeah, lets go with that.

EDIT: Another Example (3:00. Incredibly old vid btw. Both players sucked, but the example is clear)
EDIT2: An example not from me (1:50)

The only gripe I have with it could go quite wrong if the situation is misjudged (although thats true for anything) and is that like you said if the person moves back, the fight returns to neutral stance. Which doesn't really get anybody anywhere, kind of like Sonic's Side B cancel. But if your opponent is too close, isn't Mario open to punishment? I thought that running straight at FLUDD just made you stay still and only if it was fully charged? This is on the ground though, I can see FLUDD causing problems in the air but with the threat of fireballs I would argue that Peach shouldn't really be approaching from the air

If it's at least half-charged it will slow you down and of course make you obvious. Full-charge is a complete stop.

Since I'm sure no one else will do it, I'll go through this step-by-step.

(Uncharged FLUDD)
-Neutral Stance
-Opponent approaches by air
-FLUDD is used. FIHL is possible, but most of all the approach method is "killed".
--FIHL is induced and the opponent is stuck in hitlag. Opponent is in undesirable situation. Mario attacks and opponent is forced to react correctly.
--Opponent's spacing is skewed due to FLUDD. The attack that was in preparation is now easily readable.
--Opponent moves back and returns to neutral stance. There is nothing wrong with this, as options have to be revisited. If your opponent is spooked then FLUDD did it's job.

-Opponent approaches by ground
-FLUDD is used. FIHL is possible, but more than likely can't be capitalized. Approach method is killed however.
--Opponent's preparation of attack is now easily readable and can be punished.
--Opponent moves back (never seen this happen but it's possible) and returns to neutral stance.

Charged FLUDD does the same thing, just makes things more punishable since it actually pushes back opponents and allows Mario to move while the opponent is still lagged in FIHL. Charged FLUDD also does things that Uncharged FLUDD cannot, like for instance push up Metaknight's Tornado and cause him to go into a freefall. That's besides the point though. Bottomline, Charged is always better than Uncharged.

 

[Matador]

Lmao @ underrating Fludd. This isn't March 08.

Any Mario that hasn't used Fludd vs Peach is doing it wrong.

 

[TheCubeStud]

Matador, I'm pretty sure you were in the TP4 livestream as I mentioned my victory over Praxis. I know someone in the stream asked if I used Mario, and I said "Hell no, it's a 6:4, don't be stupid." I play Mario better than I play Wolf, but I'd much rather play a 45:55 disadvantage than a 4:6 disadvantage. We even played Mario/Peach afterward for testing purposes, and it really affirmed our 6:4 beliefs.

And to whoever the math genius is that said 6:4 is a 2-game advantage, what's the score if the 4 game person were to win one more game out of the 10? Yeah, it's logically a 1-game advantage.