The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[HeroMystic]

@Inferno: Zap Jump

 

[mars16]

Overall
___________
Lucas
-----
Has the kill power
Good knockback upsmash
Can absorb the fireballs for health
PS magnet, good against aproach
Ftilt, his fastest attack, good for pokes....?
Dtilt, Good move can catch'm off gaurd, Not as good as Ness's
Grab range
---
Extra
-Good jumper
-Can reflect with stick
-Has a tether grab!
-Recovery, Lots of damage
-Pk shock, good against Mario's Recovery attempt
--------------------
Bad juggler
Unsafe kill moves
Recovery, easy to gimp
Bad air game, against Mario
Laggy attacks
Can be predictable
Lighter
Laggy grab attempt___________

Mario\
----
Has the Air game in this match
Better Juggler
Fire balls !could! Help aproach
Can reflect
Overall Faster
Fludd, Good against his recovery
Heavier
Does not have a Laggy grab
------
Extra---
-Faster Jab, also easier to connect them
-..................Faster dash
-Down smash is faster
---------------
Fireballs are possibly useless and could only help Lucas........That rhymes!
Shorter grab
Short recovery, PK shock could make it worse
Lower kill power
??
??


55:45 Lucas

 

[hippiedude92]

He can't really follow up if you shield it. You can also move so that he isn't above your head.



If only you agreed with me earlier.

well he's still safe and you can't punish it (well for me in experience, maybe idks vids would help) cuz hes spacing the dair right over your shield and he autocancel that shiz (idk im just guessing) and can't punish it O_O

thats just me tho biggest problem is just dair for me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

correct me if i'm wrong but i think that mario is pretty predictable with his recovery (can the angle of his upb be directed with the a-stick?) so i wouldn't be surprised to see a lucas trying to go for the invincibility bair spike on mario once in a while.

Mario's recovery is onetracked if he has very bad DI, but if he knows how to Cape Stall, it is no simple matter to edgeguard him, and he's also a very safe character when he makes it to the ledge.

Yes he can angle Up-B, but the best use for that is on BF, where he can do a grounded Up-B to land on the top platform.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Magnet cancelling is a godsend.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Magnet cancelling is a godsend.

This

10NoEndingLags

 

[Inferno3044]

Overall
___________
Lucas
-----
Has the kill power
Good knockback upsmash
Can absorb the fireballs for health
PS magnet, good against aproach
Ftilt, his fastest attack, good for pokes....?
Dtilt, Good move can catch'm off gaurd, Not as good as Ness's
Grab range
---
Extra
-Good jumper
-Can reflect with stick
-Has a tether grab!
-Recovery, Lots of damage
-Pk shock, good against Mario's Recovery attempt
--------------------
Bad juggler
Unsafe kill moves
Recovery, easy to gimp
Bad air game, against Mario
Laggy attacks
Can be predictable
Lighter
Laggy grab attempt___________

Mario\
----
Has the Air game in this match
Better Juggler
Fire balls !could! Help aproach
Can reflect
Overall Faster
Fludd, Good against his recovery
Heavier
Does not have a Laggy grab
------
Extra---
-Faster Jab, also easier to connect them
-..................Faster dash
-Down smash is faster
---------------
Fireballs are possibly useless and could only help Lucas........That rhymes!
Shorter grab
Short recovery, PK shock could make it worse
Lower kill power
??
??


55:45 Lucas

Responses to Lucas:

You shouldn't get hit by Usmash often. It is very slow and can be dodged/shielded then punished on reaction.
PSI magnet doesn't stop our approach. It stops our fireballs though if that's what you mean.
His poking is pretty decent but our ftilt is faster and pokes as well.
Dtilt is used more for the lock into kill.
What does good jumper mean? He does have very good aerial mobility if that's what you mean.
Lucas should not be reflecting fireballs with his stick. It's much smarter to absorb them.
His recovery doesn't deal much damage with good DI. Which way is the best to DI PKT2?
As said before, PKT should not gimp Mario. Just DI it upwards.

Responses to Mario:

Fireballs will only help an approach if you are close enough to punish Lucas and/or he has little to no damage on him.
The extras aren't needed. Mario is a significantly faster character. Simple as that
Although Mario's grab range is pretty bad, grabbing Lucas gets a high reward.
As said, you should not get gimped by PKT. His recovery actually isn't bad. It's mediocre, which is better than Lucas' recovery which is bad.
Mario's moves are much safer which I believe is something important.

I believe it's 55:45 Mario actually but I am willing to negotiate the ratio to even.

What's magnet cancelling?

 

[mars16]

And thats Why I said extra becuase just

I mean like If you fill like reflecting something then theres something extra to do instead of absorbing

But yea I'd rather absorb

 

[The Master of Mario]

"However, you CANNOT reliably Up-B Lucas' n-air on shield seeing it has 0 frame advantage on sheild when properly auto canceled. If you try to Up-B OoS, you end up getting jabbed if Lucas AC's it correctly, Lucas can also N-air to the other side of your sheild to avoid the Up-B and punish."

You can Up-B out of Shield Lucas's n-air it's just not easy because you only have a one frame window between the attacks. With Metaknight you have a 1-2 frame window between hits(but it's more disjointed). So you can beat N-air with Up-special its just not easy because of the One frame window.
(Remember Up-special is invincible on frame 3 so Mario needs 2 frames to start the attack)


"Edgeguard
Lucas has decent at best options at edgegaurding, but one thing I know is that you don't want to be using your fireballs off-stage, Lucas will end up with more life (exp. Boss v. Pink Fresh). If Lucas throws a PKT at you, just DI up and you shouldn't ever get gimped by it. PK Freeze you can easily airdodge."

Both those options are very laggy for Lucas to use and can be punished easily by Mario's faster air game. The last thing Lucas wants is to be is a -18ADV> target in the air. Mario just has to remember how far he can attack out safely on each stage. I'd recommend Yoshi's Island because of how easy recovery is there.

Gimp Ability
"Lucas is somewhat gimpable, but we've developed an anti-gimp metagame pretty well. There shouldn't be too much gimping going on in this match."
"Zap Jump will be pretty hard to gimp, but it has hidden lag and Lucas has nearly no aerial mobility during it, try to FLUDD it and make him use his PKT2."

Fireballs should definitely be used against Lucas's recovery as They stop Zapjump and Lucas's Up-special very well FireBall->U-air/B-air are great at edgegaurding Lucas due to his fall speed.If Lucas is anticipating a Fireball with Down-B Mario can just resort to edgegaurding directly with B-air because it's Three frames faster than F-air.F-air and U-air are what Mario wants Lucas to use because they will cause Lucas to fall the greatest distance because they last the longest of his aerials and Lucas falls faster than Mario and similar to Link.Once all he has is his Up-special Mario has Many options for stoping Lucas from recovering. Capestalling can prevent Lucas from grabbing the ledge and force him to lag helplessly after he finishes his recovery during which Mario can just Drop->Double Jump back on the stage and smash attack.Fludd can increase the hieght of Zap Jump if done incorrectly and must be used after he has preformed the jump.

 

[Kanzaki]

It should be 55-45 Lucas Advantage. At best, it'll be even.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Everything I know about this MU I've already said, so I can't say anything else here.

I'd say it's even. No 55-45 for either; these two just screw around with eachother's strength so well, from what I've seen.

 

[Inferno3044]

I second even.

 

[mars16]

I just don't see how its 50:50
I find 55:45 to be even

Just slightly more chance of the 55 winning

And it would have to depend on how the 45 Plays....

But ok I say 50:50 as well

 

[Inferno3044]

OK I'll put this at even.

 

[mars16]

aWSOMENESS

I'll wait for some one else to sugjest

AHHA!

 

[Inferno3044]

If we wanna go back to earlier ones I'll go back to Lucario. Other than that I don't have a preference.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can I just stress that I know both in theory and in practice that Mario definitely doesn't lose to Donkey Kong? This matchup is no worse than the ratio dead even as far as I'm concerned. It's just that good of a matchup for Mario.

I believe I represent the matchup correctly due to my very expansive knowledge and technical mastery of the character.

Once you get DK in the air, Mario is MUCH better at keeping him up there than the other way around. If you play it safe with U-tilts to punish his airdodges, you can rack up some serious damage on him that he can do virtually nothing about. Yeah just make sure that you're smart about it since doing it wrong and whiffing gets you U-tilted, but Mario does a better job of avoiding juggles with Cape Stalling alone.

And it's so easy to land a charged Smash in this matchup that Donkey Kong's weight advantage really isn't a very huge advantage against Mario. You can finish him off in the 120s with Sliding Up-smashes and calling a ground move -> charged F-smash can kill him at 110% or maybe earlier. Of course, it's important you don't fall for charged Smashes yourself, which he like you wants to land off of juggles. With intelligent use of Cape Stalling however, he won't be landing those very often against you.

Plus, when I see most people play the matchup, I see them get owned by Donkey Kong's <100% getup attack more than once. Stop letting that happen. It's predictable and punishable, and once you know that, he has very few options for getting up from the ledge. Calling a ledgeroll (especially the >100% one since you're going for the kill at that point) of course is a good opportunity to charge an Up-smash, while shielding covers pretty much everything else at that point.

Donkey Kong's B-air and F-tilt are of course still hard for Mario to deal with, and Donkey Kong himself is fairly difficult to get up from the ledge against (but you can shut him down much better). Donkey Kong's B-air unlike Mario's suffers in that he really doesn't get to implement vertical spacing much, and I'm very certain I've punished his F-tilt with F-smash quite a few times.

 

[Inferno3044]

I definitely said most if not all of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, it's just that I don't think most Mario mains know how to play the matchup correctly in practice, except for Kirin, and he was already ****** the matchup before we knew about the Sliding Up-smash. I feel really confident that I could beat most DK players consistently in tournament since I have good control of Mario and I'm a very observant player.

Either way, Mario played properly definitely is not disadvantaged to Donkey Kong, and I'm starting to feel that I might understand why Pierce would say Mario beats Donkey Kong.

I beat two respectably good DK players recently using all the stuff I mentioned in my previous posts, specifically Dantarion and SomeRandomKid. SRK used to beat me consistently with DK until I learned the matchup and became better as a player, and he told me that he does not like fighting against Mario.

Most of the arguments as to why DK beats Mario are things like he's much heavier and Mario can't kill him at respectable percents without a gimp. That's completely false. DK is actually easy for Mario to kill at respectable percents. Mario's setups and strategies for landing charged Smashes work EXTREMELY well against Donkey Kong, and even if they don't kill, they will rack massive damage that can very well compensate for another fresh kill move. You can win this matchup solidly without gimps as long as you know proper application of charged Smashes and where DK can't avoid them.

Like I said earlier, it's a very technical matchup that requires to to watch out for some specific gimmicks that can potentially kill you stupidly early or do a lot of damage, and there is a level of finesse required to take advantage of DK's weaknesses. But Mario easily has the tools to dominate if you know what you're doing.

 

[prOAPC]

fludd does nothing if Lucas use his ropesnake (zair) to grab the ledge

 

[Inferno3044]

fludd does nothing if Lucas use his ropesnake (zair) to grab the ledge

It was stated that he had a tether recovery. It was agreed that Lucas is in a very bad situation if he has to use PKT2.

MU discussion over.

 

[mars16]

Are we discussing Donkey Kong again, he was recent.....

I really don't find the OPit match to be Even also

Lucario ratio is still ********.....57:43????

If Lucario had the advantage then why not just 55:45


vote Lucario

 

[Kanzaki]

The whole "57:43" ratio thing was really stupid, that's why I never goto this thread any more, other than to discuss Lucas.

 

[Matt07]

Lucario was just discussed however.

Eh, we kinda discussed everyone a lot already, so I guess that doesn't really matter.

 

[A2ZOMG]

idk why you guys say vs Luigi is in his favor. That matchup is definitely easier than Toon Link by a fair margin, which we have as a 55/45.

I'm always going to say that matchup is even. Mario can more safely juggle the **** out of Luigi if you know what you're doing (seriously, U-tilt is underestimated for punishing landings in general since it has insane priority and a lingering hitbox), and you can get away with a lot of F-smashes, which beat most of Luigi's approaches due to the massive range and work especially well due to his low traction when he blocks.

 

[HeroMystic]

FFS, A2 stop saying "if you know what you're doing" and actually explain it.

Reason why I say 45:55 is because Luigi can combo, combo break, and a possesses a great deal of KO power. Mario is virtually stuck with "perfectly" spacing his aerials the entire time when all Luigi has to do is go RAWR mode.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just explained that U-tilt safely juggles Luigi. It more safely juggles him than what Luigi can do to Mario. U-tilt beats EVERYTHING he does, and punishes the airdodge.

And F-smash is stupid easy to land on him.

 

[Kanzaki]

A2Z, if possible, can you please stop jumping from characters to characters in other discussions. First we were talking about Lucas, then you bring up DK, then all of a sudden, Luigi comes out of no where. This, in my opinion, makes this thread really hectic, and stuff like "63.5234 : 2.4123 : 30" ratio comes up x.x

 

[A2ZOMG]

We don't have a set topic currently, so I'm just going to take the time to disagree with whatever I think matters right now.

 

[BSP]

I just explained that U-tilt safely juggles Luigi. It more safely juggles him than what Luigi can do to Mario. U-tilt beats EVERYTHING he does, and punishes the airdodge.

And F-smash is stupid easy to land on him.

I agree with A2.

I think this match is dead even.

P.S. Fair is safe on block vs luigi

 

[vato_break]

we should discuss peach

 

[Inferno3044]

I honestly wanna know why we went with 57:43 for Lucario. I don't even think this MU is close to 60:40. I'm actually leaning towards even.

@A2: I was thinking it was even recently. I'm not sure now. In reality, there will probably be a good amount of traded hits and Luigi can kill at significantly lower percentages though his kill moves aren't as safe. Nair probably breaks most of what he has. I don't see why it wouldn't. Mario has range, edgeguarding and safety. Luigi has damage racking (i think his moves do slightly more), kill power, and priority. I might discuss this with Pierce.

@Vato: You know what's gonna happen even though I think it's even.

 

[Matador]

I'd have to play a really good Peach before I can see what you guys see about the match-up.

I'd go as far as slightly our adv playing aggro.

Vato and Kirin say we lose even when playing campy as hell.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, playing Peach is like playing Marth, except she's less gimpable, but doesn't kill you as easily, and your options for breaking her zoning are more obvious since her F-air has noticeable startup. Either way it's kinda the same idea. Draw out and control her approach with specials, and then get in and pressure her with aerials, combos, and stuff. Also you don't have to worry about her Dragon Punching out of Jab cancels, so Jab cancel D-smash is REALLY good. Also it's pretty important to not get cornered.

I don't see Mario users doing the Sliding Up-smash enough in general, but I would suspect it's very good against Peach and being able to net a kill at like slightly under 100% with it is too good to ignore.

 

[Famous]

I honestly wanna know why we went with 57:43 for Lucario. I don't even think this MU is close to 60:40. I'm actually leaning towards even.

@A2: I was thinking it was even recently. I'm not sure now. In reality, there will probably be a good amount of traded hits and Luigi can kill at significantly lower percentages though his kill moves aren't as safe. Nair probably breaks most of what he has. I don't see why it wouldn't. Mario has range, edgeguarding and safety. Luigi has damage racking (i think his moves do slightly more), kill power, and priority. I might discuss this with Pierce.

@Vato: You know what's gonna happen even though I think it's even.

Lol, get luigi out of here...That mu is dead even...Look at my old match with Boss and notice how even the match went..until the end x.x


Luigi has more ko power but we have gimping tools. power=gimps..Mario/Luigi virtually has the same playstyle and combos...a reason why I play with them both now.



Peach? No comment...MU is slightly in peaches favor for good reason

 

[The Master of Mario]

The Major difference between Mario and Luigi is Mario can ground cancel the lag on all of his aerials while Luigi has much more landing lag so he can't. Luigi's aerials may do more damage but he's limited by his aerial movement speed and lag while Mario can just set up with ground attacks. Mario can beat most of Luigi's aerial approaches with Blind-Up-Smash OOS and N-air OOS.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi has 3-4 more frames landing lag on U-air, N-air, and B-air, but his D-air is less laggy.

And uh, you're better off U-tilting Luigi's aerial approaches usually.

 

[mars16]

Peach
---------
I think she would have the advantage
Her floating ability helps her, make her hard to gimp,
I don't now if she has more kill power but her Diadem smack has good knockback
Still Mario's Bair is faster, all Mario's Aerials are faster except Aair.......She doesn't scare Mario
__Extra
-Her stitch face and chances of pulling bombs and stuff out the ground could make things harder as well....But it changes nothing Mario has cape for that
-Also Toad, good counter....
___________________

If were starting Peach now then I'm in but if not

Then I still want to talk Lucario

 

[HeroMystic]

If multiple topics want to be discussed at once it'd be best to make multiple threads for it.

 

[Inferno3044]

Lol, get luigi out of here...That mu is dead even...Look at my old match with Boss and notice how even the match went..until the end x.x


Luigi has more ko power but we have gimping tools. power=gimps..Mario/Luigi virtually has the same playstyle and combos...a reason why I play with them both now.



Peach? No comment...MU is slightly in peaches favor for good reason

I know what you're talking about. I remember how close those vids are. It does seem that most of us do think it's even and I'll change it assuming most people are fine with it.

We are NOT doing Peach. Look at the Peach discussion on the original MU thread and you'll know why. Please pick another character.