The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[Kanzaki]

Although a bit outdated, I post this every single time this match up is being discussed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0EB5ThWmQ

And I'm pretty sure I have more Lucas experience than 99.9% of Mario players here.

Lucas has the tools to out range and out space Mario, it can be quite annoying, Vato can vouch for this. Lucas can out spam Mario as well, and caping does NOT solve this... if the Lucas space the pk fire correctly, a caped pk fire should NOT the Lucas player. On top of this, Mario shouldn't be able to spam vs Lucas as well, since the Lucas player would just be able to absorb it. And none of this "oh, I'm just going to fire ball to cover myself", cause that annoying PSI absorb thing can actually hit you, unlike Ness' x.x

I don't know frame data, but I'm pretty sure Lucas' forward smash is faster than our's as well, and has a slightly greater range. There's a few times where I miscalculated the distance, and BARELY missed a forward smashed, even stutterstepped, and I got punished by the lil twig Lucas has.

The way I fight, and beat Lucas players, is playing an edge game. I fought JonT's Lucas yesterday in a low tier match, and I just kept going in head on... because I had the same attitude "I fight Lucas all the time, pfft, I'm going all head on", but on my last stock, when JonT had a stock advantage over me, he kept out ranging me, so I decided to stop rushing in and played an edge game.. even that was sloppy, I missed easy *** gimps, caping/fludding pk thunder, but I just continued playing an edge game, and I ended up winning xD

This match up, in my opinion, is based on the player's ability to control their character, and mind game their opponent. But sadly, even though I WANT to say it's Mario's advantage, through results, I'd have to say it's Lucas' advantage due to stats:

I barely beat JonT's Lucas in tourney, although my mistakes on being cocky, it was a close win.
Vato and 3des played multiple FRIENDLIES, I didn't watch, but from what I was told, 3des won the majority... and me and Vato have complete opposite styles so yea =/
Pink Fresh beat Boss in tourney.
3des almost 3 stocked Diddyknight's Mario(who Vato named the 3rd best Mario in our region >.>) in tourney.

 

[vato_break]

um diddyknight used luigi not mario vs 3des and i 3 STOCKED 3des jus sayin ^_-...

um i don't know anything abot this matchup really except if you clip his jump its a easy gimp

 

[Kanzaki]

Diddyknight went Mario first round and almost got 3 stocked, then he went Luigi second round.

And they were just friendly Vato, chill, just saying, he won the majority as soon as he adjusted your style vs mine xD

 

[vato_break]

true... guess low level players take awhile to adapt

 

[3des]

and who won the last couple of matches, keep in mind, i didn't play lucas for like several months...





Since im a low level lucas player, should we money match to prove it?

 

[3des]

and if i remember correctly, i was the one who won majority of the matches, so speak on the truth son.


besides you go to every single tournament and you still had trouble keeping up with me, shows how much you've progressed.




---low level lucas player

 

[vato_break]

yeah sorry i guess kinda went to far with low level player stuff lol yeah you did start to catch on

i have to much pride in my mario... again i kinda went out of line sorry mah dude.

 

[HeroMystic]

Before this goes on and turns into a cluster****, fill this out for both characters, then compare and contrast.

Current Format

Options per Situation

Approach

Defense

Edgeguard

Recovery

Margin of Error

Degree of Punishment

Character Attributes

Strengths

Weaknesses

Covering Weaknesses

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power

Gimp Ability

Overall

**** Advantage
Heavy Advantage
Advantage
Slight Advantage
Even
Slight Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Heavy Disadvantage
Unwinnable

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario vs Lucas...Okay so the jist of it. Keep in mind, I actually have a decent Lucas, so I have a good idea how the character works. Lucas is a poke-based character who has a lot of mobility, but really crappy range. He can pressure with N-air, except Mario has an OOS option that punishes it (up-B), and Lucas SUCKS at getting kills. Lucas has an annoying F-tilt and F-air for damage dealing, but generally speaking, if you play safe against this character, he really can't kill you easily. He's pretty bad at punishing retreats in any really powerful way, and juggling you consistently, and his kill moves all are either slow or have bad range or just horribly unsafe. His "best" kill moves are F-smash, D-smash, and D-throw. F-smash and grabbing are horribly unsafe and you outrange them with F-smash. D-smash is somewhat less horribly unsafe, but still sucks and should rarely ever hit you, and the latter hits are weak and don't kill, making it really weak for punishing spotdodges. D-air -> D-tilt -> F-smash trap can be teched. None of Lucas's aerials really kill that early. His U-air is his best aerial killer and only kills at like 140ish percent at best.

Maybe Mario goes only 55/45 against Ness, but I think Mario is more clearly advantaged against Lucas. Keep in mind, Mario is a character that can avoid Lucas's edgeguarding really easily too. Cape Stalling > PK Thunder edgeguards.

So anyhow at best, Lucas can keep up in damage with Mario with F-air/F-tilt pokes, N-air and Jab pressures, and maybe random grabs here and there, but when it comes to scoring kills, he's at a significant disadvantage. His crappy range, bad offensive double jump, and the fact Mario outspeeds him on most attacks ensures that.

 

[Inferno3044]

We just discussed that Mario vs. Ness was 60:40 mainly because Mario has a clear advantage. I actually see Lucas harder (on paper) because he can poke us and rack more damage due to his pokes. Fsmash isn't a bad kill move. Only thing bad about it is its range. It has quite a bit of kill power and decent speed. I do have a lack of Lucas experience though.

 

[Kanzaki]

I'm sorry A2Z, but based on what you're saying, I don't think you have a "decent" Lucas >.>

 

[Matt07]

I think Lucas has the advantage, either 55:45 or 60:40 at most.

Lucas just beats out a lot of Mario's options in my opinion. Or I'm just horrid at the match-up.

 

[Kanzaki]

I have like 9 minutes left of class(and still taking notes) so whatever I don't finish, I'll finish later


For Mario:

Options per Situation

Approach
My favourate way to approach is ONE full hop fire ball for cover and see what the Lucas do and react. Don't give him enough time to absorb, but if he DOES pull out the absorb thing becareful not to get hit by it, power shield and punish. If the Lucas shields the fireball, grab or do whatever you like.. Lucas power shielding options aren't that good.

Defense
When I'm playing on the defense, I camp the ledge and power shield/dodge all the pkfires, thus forcing the Lucas player to approach me, usually with nair or fair. I usually play it safe until they're close to me, then I grab the ledge, and a few planks, ledge drop -> uair. Occasionally they would full hop dair, but I just run to the other side of the stage and rinse and repeat xD

Edgeguard
Fireball to gimp 2nd jump/pk thunder(WHEN ITS IN THE PROCESS NOT DURING), fludd to stop pk thunder, cape the pk thunder, edge hog so they can't tether... anticipate the zap jump and magnet pull.. most likely after you hear "pk fire", they're trying to magnet pull so do any aerial to intercept it... my sparring partner doesn't use zap jumping, JonT was the first Lucas to use it against me, and after the first time I saw him zap jump, I knew EVERY SINGLE TIME he was going to do it but seeing in the corner of my eye, him moving his finger position.. As soon as I saw that, I just air dodged then punished. It's fun edge guarding Lucas though, be creative :]

Recovery
If the Lucas is, for what ever reason, trying to edge guard you with pk thunder... if you can't recover from this, switch mains. When the Lucas jumps out is when there's a problem.. Dair/Fair/Bair can be quite annoying, along with spaced pk fires.. but shouldn't be too bad, cape then up b xD

Margin of Error
Everything has to be precise in this match up, if you fail to tech Lucas' dair, be ready to get fsmashed, if you missed the cape gimp, be prepared to get hit by the pk thunder, if you spam fire ball, you just healed Lucas. Pretty much, you gotta be very precise in this match up, no room for errors.

Degree of Punishment
As I said in the margin or error, be prepared to be punished with any errors you make xD


--holy **** this is long, I'll finish this later >.>


Character Attributes

Strengths

Weaknesses

Covering Weaknesses

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power

Gimp Ability

Overall

**** Advantage
Heavy Advantage
Advantage
Slight Advantage
Even
Slight Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Heavy Disadvantage
Unwinnable

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario technically outzones Lucas since he actually has more range on several key moves, and attacks faster. And he CLEARLY is better at safely and reliably scoring a kill. I cannot stress how bad Lucas is at easily getting a kill.

Lucas's F-smash is horrible. It's basically a worse version of Ganon's F-smash. It has less range, doesn't kill as early, and has just as much ending lag with less shield pushback.

Lucas's D-air tech trap is of course techable, and it requires him to commit to a fullhop, where he's vulnerable to Mario's superior vertical spacing game.

D-throw is kinda good in that throws never have to be stale, except Lucas sucks at grabbing since his grab is slow and massively punishable. Since he's a tether, you can pressure his shield very effectively if you know what you're doing.

His D-smash requires him to sweetspot the initial hit, and it has a lot of commitment and startup. It's sorta not horrible on block but otherwise it just sucks.

And his aerials really just don't kill any better than Mario's for the most part.

You don't really have to force the kill in this matchup, since Lucas is just plain worse at getting it than Mario.

 

[Matt07]

Things I have trouble seeing. Lucas' f-smash comes out frame 15 (I think?) and a lot less cool-down, good range. It's a better version of Luigi's f-smash.

Our aerials outpriotize his? N-air begs to differ. Lol everytime I went to do something while he was n-air'ing I got hit. Plus Lucas can pretty much just full hop d-air at random times, cause we're mainly going to be approaching in the air, and if we don't tech it, we're pretty much screwed to be hit whatever he has coming for us.

Again I'll try and stop venting my issues on this match-up lol. I just think Ness/Lucas are really bad for Mario >_>, cause I'm horrid at both match-up's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness and Lucas like some of Mario's other matchups are technical for Mario, in that they require you to know your character in and out to play to your advantages properly. Mario is a character that thrives on the adaptability of his options, and that adaptability is what gives him the advantage against those characters.

You really should look at Lucas's frame data and check his hitbox sizes sometime.

Lucas's F-smash is frame 14 and has like an entire half second of ending lag, which is similar in terms of ending lag to Ganon's F-smash. Sure it's a bit faster than Ganon's F-smash in terms of startup, but it's still blockable on reaction, and it has less range and power.

Luigi's F-smash is MUCH less laggy than Lucas's F-smash. It's less laggy than Mario's, which has less lag than Lucas's.

Mario's B-air > Lucas's N-air. Up-B out of shield also punishes that. Fullhop D-air loses to Mario's vertical spacing strategies. I'm assuming that if you know this matchup YOU WILL tech the D-air on reaction.

In other news, I actually got to play both SRK and Dantarion's DK, and I beat both of them. I am COMPLETELY convinced at this point that Mario does NO WORSE than 50/50 vs DK. It's definitely by far one of his better matchups.

 

[Famous]

Things I have trouble seeing. Lucas' f-smash comes out frame 15 (I think?) and a lot less cool-down, good range. It's a better version of Luigi's f-smash.

Our aerials outpriotize his? N-air begs to differ. Lol everytime I went to do something while he was n-air'ing I got hit. Plus Lucas can pretty much just full hop d-air at random times, cause we're mainly going to be approaching in the air, and if we don't tech it, we're pretty much screwed to be hit whatever he has coming for us.

Again I'll try and stop venting my issues on this match-up lol. I just think Ness/Lucas are really bad for Mario >_>, cause I'm horrid at both match-up's.

Luigi has the fastest F-Smash in the game(if your pointing it up)...It doesn't even compares to Lucas F-smash

And yea...Lucas Nair out prioritize alot of our moves. Someone mentioned that you can shut the Nair approach down with OoS options...

 

[hippiedude92]

what do you do or mario's options against Lucas Full hop dairing right above your head, (and pressuring your shield)? i have a hard time if lucas spaces it correctly

 

[Inferno3044]

what do you do or mario's options against Lucas Full hop dairing right above your head, (and pressuring your shield)? i have a hard time if lucas spaces it correctly

He can't really follow up if you shield it. You can also move so that he isn't above your head.

In other news, I actually got to play both SRK and Dantarion's DK, and I beat both of them. I am COMPLETELY convinced at this point that Mario does NO WORSE than 50/50 vs DK. It's definitely by far one of his better matchups.

If only you agreed with me earlier.

 

[Kanzaki]

A2Z: You're the FIRST person I've ever seen call Lucas' fsmash "bad".


I've actually heard a few people call it broken.

 

[HeroMystic]

I like how you guys are making a whole lot outta nothing.

On both ends.

 

[Kanzaki]

Not really out of a whole lot of nothing, all extremely close match ups will have this kind of discussion from both sides. I'm just trying to give an unbiased opinion as a Mario main who fights a really good Lucas player all the time.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's not unbiased. This is a cluster****.

You're making Lucas seem like some god. Or Metaknight. A2Z isn't doing much better from the opposite spectrum, and I can't even take anyone else seriously. Match-up Ratios are all over the place and I can't begin to find my distaste for it.

I don't care about anyone's "greatest experience" or some Boss vs Whatever videos, they're all too **** inconclusive from an objective point of view and shows nothing of a character vs character match-up and instead just shows player vs player. This is exactly what I meant when I made my match-up topic.

Facts need to be stated and there needs to be an objective PoV from both sides, that's why I made the format which needs to be used for both characters then compared and contrast. Approaching, spacing, and mix-ups all need to be analyzed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

All my arguments are based on solid data on characters and analysis of how their tools interact, and everything I said is consistent with frame and hitbox data. I also have experience using both characters against competitive players, but regardless, my arguments are actually based on real character analysis.

Mario in fact outzones Lucas with faster and better aerial spacing options that have less commitment and don't really lose in range and priority to what Lucas has. Lucas does have an annoying F-air, N-air, and F-tilt. Mario's B-air zoning >>> Lucas's F-air and N-air, and even if Lucas N-airs your shield, Mario can punish it with Up-B. F-tilt is a bit more tricky especially if he angles it since his F-tilt is better than yours and a mad legit poke (which thankfully for Mario leads to nothing). Mario however has a better Jab and throw game, and with wise use of spaced aerials and Jabs, is very difficult for Lucas to shieldgrab.

More importantly however, Lucas is significantly worse at scoring kills. He doesn't have a single safe or reliable kill move. Mario when played correctly really does not lose in KO percents to this character, and scores the kill more safely and reliably. Mario's Smashes are just plain better in terms of speed and application, and F-smash outranges everything Lucas has.

Lucas's F-smash should almost never hit you if you avoid the D-air tech trap since it's technically speaking one of the shortest ranged F-smashes in the entire game.

 

[Kanzaki]

It's not unbiased. This is a cluster****.

You're making Lucas seem like some god. Or Metaknight. A2Z isn't doing much better from the opposite spectrum, and I can't even take anyone else seriously. Match-up Ratios are all over the place and I can't begin to find my distaste for it.

I don't care about anyone's "greatest experience" or some Boss vs Whatever videos, they're all too **** inconclusive from an objective point of view and shows nothing of a character vs character match-up and instead just shows player vs player. This is exactly what I meant when I made my match-up topic.

Facts need to be stated and there needs to be an objective PoV from both sides, that's why I made the format which needs to be used for both characters then compared and contrast. Approaching, spacing, and mix-ups all need to be analyzed.

Where did I say Lucas was some god, or Metaknight? I just simply stated that Lucas has a SLIGHT advantage over Mario, and I stated why. I'm not going to be like every other low tier mains who thinks their character is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, I know when my main is limited and when he is at a disadvantage.

And what's better to show in a character vs character match up other than the player representation of said character? And noticed I didn't even limit my self to just said player, but to other TOURNEY GOING players as well. Noticed I said "Tourney going" players. Data is one thing, but stats is another.

And with my stats of Lucas vs. Mario results, comes with FACTS as well. It's not like I pulled out those stats out of thin air. If you noticed, I started on your little format thing, but I was in class so I couldn't finish it, and no one else seems interested in doing it, so unless other people are gonna step up and fill it out as well, I'm sorry but I think it'll most likely fail.

If you really want point of views from both sides as well, get some Lucas players in here, til then, I'm probably the best representation from Lucas players, seeing as I most likely have the most experience vs. Lucas.

 

[Matt07]

@Kanzaki, the part of relating Lucas to a 'God' would be me. Just to avoid the confusion.

We could do the format, but much of us don't really have much Lucas experience, hence the lack of format, etc.

Kanzaki is probably by far the most experienced one in this match-up.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Lucas likes fireballs.

I've played Tyr but I don't feel I know enough with the matchup to say much more than that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No offense Kanzaki, but I really dunno where your Mario is at, since you don't visit the boards a lot, and a lot has changed since the last time I met you in person or since you last saved a match to be uploaded to youtube.

Most of us have a TON of room to improve, and even Boss as far as I'm concerned still could be doing better if he had more solid precise knowledge of Mario's options.

Yes tournament results have us losing to Lucas players, but I am completely sure that we can be doing much better than that. There is just too much Mario can do in this matchup for it to actually be out of his favor as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The Master of Mario]

[Options per Situation]

Mario

(Landed)SHFF-B-air->Grab for -5ADV is safe on Lucas’s shield as Mario’s grab is Frame 6 while Lucas’s is Frame 13
(Landed)SHFF-Blind-U-air->Grab for -6ADV is safe on Lucas’s shield because Mario’s grab is Frame 6 while Lucas’s is Frame 13
(Autocancel)SH(Do not FastFall)-Blind-U-air->Grab has an advantage of -7 frames so you can tie with Lucas's grab frame.
(Autocancel)SH(Do not FastFall)-(Weak)B-air->Grab has an advantage of -7 frames so you can tie with Lucas's grab frame.
Advantage=LastHitFrame-AutocancelFrame+ShieldStun-ShorthopLag
(Remember that it takes ~7 frames to drop a shield)
These attack options open up Mario’s damaging Grab game on Lucas even though it has less range the speed makes it viable.

Aerial Approach with Cape really shuts down Lucas’s Air Game when Lucas is using Aerials
Cape Disjointed Range combats aerials from the ground as Lucas’s short range puts his body in harms way.

UP-Special-OOS on N-air may work well enough though the timing is a 1-frame window because there is only 3 frames between the hits of Lucas's N-air and Up special gains invincibility on frame 3. Up-B out of shield is best for stopping Lucas's D-air.

Fireballs aren't a good approach option because Lucas has many ways to reflect them.
Lucas's smashes are strongest when sweetspoted at the tip so Mario can use moves like F-tilt which have simular range but better speed to catch Lucas off gaurd.

Recovery

Mario can recover with Up-special and Cape. Airdodging and DI is important. Mario doesn't have as many options as Lucas for vertical recovery. Getting to the ledge is easier for Mario however because lucas's Up-special can bounce off the ledge if not aimed perfectly while Mario's reaches for the ledge. Mario has the option to capestall on the ledge as well as wall jump.

Margin of Error

Losing this match can be achieved if spacing and shielding is not very good. The Mario player will also need practice timing aerials to end on the right frame especially with SH double aerials.

Degree of Punishment

Mario's recovery can be punished with D-air on the edge if the ledge game is poor. Resulting in an easy loss of stock for Mario because he lacks vertical recovery to survive this on most stages where wall jumps are hard to come by. Messing up the frames for SHFF/autocancel aerials can result in grabs from good Lucas opponents. Lucas's D-tilt can quickly rackup damage on Mario if the reaction is poor such that he doesn't counterattack or escape and Lucas's U-smash can KO if Mario misses with Up-special.

Character Attributes

Strengths

Better Priority
Faster Ground Game
Faster air->ground game
Stronger F-smash

Weaknesses

Worse Recovery
Worse Vertical KO power
Less damaging moves overall

Covering Weaknesses

More air->Ground combos for damage.
More grab game to refresh damaging moves.
Choose stages where recovery and vertical KOs are easier if KO power is desired.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power
Up-angled-F-smash- KOs well against Lucas you just make an opening for it ~88%
D-smash- KOs well against Lucas you just have to clear it from stale moves or save it ~100%

Gimp Ability
F-air-Spike Lucas taking advantage of his fall speed and easy knockback
Fludd-Pushes lucas away from the stage making it harder to recover correctly
Cape-Reverse controls and makes recovery more difficult
Fireballs-Stops lucas from using his Up-special

Overall

**** Advantage
Heavy Advantage
(Advantage) 58:42 Mario
Slight Advantage
Even
Slight Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Heavy Disadvantage
Unwinnable

 

[A2ZOMG]

Advantage of those on shield is -6, so technically Lucas can drop shield Jab before you can grab, but you'll win if he tries to shieldgrab.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm gonna give it to you guys straight. Experience isn't going to conclude everything in a match-up.

Here is the problem with how we're currently going with this: We do not have our story straight. Not only do we lack experience to the point where only one (two?) is reliable enough for information, but the ones that do not have experience are throwing out ratios as if they were random.

Does everyone here understand that nearly 90% of Smashboard's MU ratios are totally bogus and worse yet does not have valid analysis for each match-up? Can you all even comprehend the fact that we're guilty of downplaying ratios as well? How can we be a reliable, informative board if we do not take the time to go out, test things, theorize, study, and trade information back and forth with each other to allow our knowledge to grow? Character boards are here specifically to enrich knowledge. Until we understand that, we don't need to progress with this MU analysis because it's going to be faulty.

What ticks me off the most however is how my thread got generally positive feedback from members here, but when it's time for it to actually get applied it's either ignored or found to be "too hard". A game without 0-deaths and easy long-string combos will always be difficult to analyze because the sky is the limit, but until we delve into the aspects that matter, paper will never meet reality.

@Kanzaki: Cool, you started filling in the format. That's a nice start. Thing is however I didn't want just you to be filling it out, because it's only from one person and not from all knowledge put together. And to be frank it looks rushed.

@A2ZOMG: Your problem with your analysis is that you have the tendency to make Mario better than what he actually is for the majority of MUs, with the only exception being G&W, and there seems to be a lack of concentration towards what opponents can do to Mario. While your words stay consistent most of the time (I can vouch for that), it never says what is bad for Mario and it kills your rep.

tl;dr: Stop being ****ing lazy and analyze this correctly.

 

[Kanzaki]

Well it's only been a month since I started being tourney active again:

Feb 06: 5th of 12 in Low-Tier Doubles, 17th of 29 in Low Tier Singles at World 2-4: Castle Pot $530
In low tier doubles, I lost to Tearbear/Slayn's team, who got first place.. and then I lost to DSF's team in loser.. and my team was the one that sent his team to loser's as well... all of our matches were VERY close matches, including a match where I almost beat DSF/Ajax 2v1.. this was on live stream if anybody saw xD
Low tier singles, I first lost to TKD's Fox, no regrets there, he out played me. And then I lost to Bigfoot, don't want to disrespect Bigfoot, he was a cool guy, but I pretty much threw the match to play some Melee then I wanted to leave.

Jan 24: 5th of 12 in Brawl Doubles, 17th of 34 in Brawl Singles at Geeks [No.5]
In doubles, I almost out planked both CommanderBeef and X 2v1 again, but lost.. then we lost to M7H/itsWillyo... no excuses there, just my lack of playing here. And then in singles, I lost to DSF and then JonT... soooo I think I got bracket ***** xD But I tried my best.

Jan 09: 9th of 17 in Doubles, 25th of 55 in Singles at World 2-3
In doubles, I lost to DSF/Tyrant, and then lost to 2 smash friends.. sooo no regrets there xD And then in singles, I lost to itsWillyo and a Metaknight.... but this was my first tourney in like 6 months >.>

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Alright Infern, I'll take a shot at doing the Lucas MU in your new format.

Options per Situation

Approach
Lucas doesn't really have to approach, but his best options if he does is d-air and n-air. D-air is something that's pretty hard to punish as Mario b/c it's full hopped and has lots of versitility so it might be hard to land you Up-B OoS with Lucas' good aerial movement.
N-air is easy though, all you have to do is out prioritize it with your n-air.
However, you CANNOT reliably Up-B Lucas' n-air on shield seeing it has 0 frame advantage on sheild when properly auto canceled. If you try to Up-B OoS, you end up getting jabbed if Lucas AC's it correctly, Lucas can also N-air to the other side of your sheild to avoid the Up-B and punish.

Defense
Lucas has PSI magnet, which on asorbtion is really safe. Lucas' PK Fire can stop alot of approaches and alot of times won't be reflected back at him. Lucas doesn't have many OoS' so pressuring his shield is easy.

Edgeguard
Lucas has decent at best options at edgegaurding, but one thing I know is that you don't want to be using your fireballs off-stage, Lucas will end up with more life (exp. Boss v. Pink Fresh). If Lucas throws a PKT at you, just DI up and you shouldn't ever get gimped by it. PK Freeze you can easily airdodge.

Recovery
Zap Jump will be pretty hard to gimp, but it has hidden lag and Lucas has nearly no aerial mobility during it, try to FLUDD it and make him use his PKT2. Don't worry about getting hit by PKT2, just DI out and you get about 8 damage max. Obvoiusly you can FLUDD and Cape **** Lucas if he uses PKT2. If Lucas is hit up high, he's going to be using Magnet Pull. Try to U-air Lucas while he's in his Magnet drop lag. (lol, Pink Fresh)

Margin of Error

Degree of Punishment
If you mess up bad, you can get into a d-air>d-tilt>u-smash combo or a flat out U-smash. He can also punish pretty good with F-smash and D-smash.

Character Attributes

Strengths
Strong Smashes, good mobility, long ranged grab (I don't really want to get too specific here)

Weaknesses
Bad Juggling, Horrible Grab speed and whiff, laggy Smashes, horrible grab release

Covering Weaknesses
Huge-*** U-smash to cover a large area, decent sheild pressure, our meta-game is not getting grabbed >.>

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power
Lucas has one of the highest damage/move in the game, he has some pretty gay d-air combos and n-air combos. Lucas has high-KO power, but very few set-ups. You're going to want to watch out for D-air>D-tilt>X at higher percents, so you don't really want Lucas above you much.

Gimp Ability
Lucas is somewhat gimpable, but we've developed an anti-gimp metagame pretty well. There shouldn't be too much gimping going on in this match.

Ratio
Either 50:50 or 55:45 Lucas

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2ZOMG: Your problem with your analysis is that you have the tendency to make Mario better than what he actually is for the majority of MUs, with the only exception being G&W, and there seems to be a lack of concentration towards what opponents can do to Mario. While your words stay consistent most of the time (I can vouch for that), it never says what is bad for Mario and it kills your rep.

My statements already take into account what opponents can do to Mario. Lucas has F-tilt/F-air poking and N-air/Jab pressure, and everything else is just not that good. And besides, I don't overrate matchups or matchup ratios. Snake sucks and never dies. Falco is a ***** if he plays correctly. G&W sucks a lot if they know what to watch out for. MK is stupid and Mario has next to no gimmicks that work on him. Marth destroys you if you don't catch on fast enough. ROB is a pain in the *** to approach and not really in Mario's favor. These are all statements that I have said in some shape or form in the past. Rarely have I ever said Mario has had a matchup in his favor, except against characters who are clearly just worse than him.

Lucas D-airing is really not that safe. Mario has a better fullhopped spacing game than Lucas with B-airs, which are generally better than any of Lucas's zoning options in terms of speed, safety, and reward (comboability).

One of the things idk yet is if Mario can simply just Up-B OOS between hits of Lucas's N-air. He can do that against the Mach Tornado, I know that. Either way B-air > that. Even if Lucas commits to Jab after a properly autocanceled N-air, it can be Up-Bed/shieldgrabbed between hits too.

Either way Lucas's kill moves just have terrible applications and Mario does better here. His Smashes are all easily avoided and generally have little range. Mario can COMBO into D-smash off of Jabs, and his U-smash is just easy to land randomly as a frame 9 attack that can potentially be used out of shield. Mario's F-smash is plain better than Lucas's, safer, has a TON more range, and kills like only 5% or something later when Up-angled, and Mario actually has a good reason to charge F-smash unlike Lucas. Not to mention Up-smash for that matter.

Lucas has enough tools to do some damage, but he's at a clear disadvantage in scoring the kill. Edgeguards are not going to be the main source of kills. Mario just wins by being better onstage.

 

[Infern Angelis]

Alright Infern, I'll take a shot at doing the Lucas MU in your new format.

Someone say my name?

 

[HailCrest]

getting hit by all four hits of fullhop dair @ 70% = death for mario. dair does 20% damage (you can DI out of the last hit if we're dumb and try to hit with all four hits though), and at mid-80 percents the fourth hit knocks you down hard enough to initiate a jablock which, provided you don't tech, is unavoidble provided that the lucas fastfalls. we can proceed to dtilt 2-3 more times, ending with an fsmash/usmash = death unless you god DI (lol). some people who are able to can dtilt lock you to the end of the stage so... meh.

good news for lucas: fireballs aren't as useful for mario. bad news: there's nothing stopping mario from using them at mid range to abuse the hitstun/interrupt attacks. our magnet is faster than ness', but it's still slow and i bet your fireballs have pretty low lag so you can just run up and do whatever you want provided you avoid the hit from magnet release (lol).

correct me if i'm wrong but i think that mario is pretty predictable with his recovery (can the angle of his upb be directed with the a-stick?) so i wouldn't be surprised to see a lucas trying to go for the invincibility bair spike on mario once in a while.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Yo.

Don't attract the God Kais, they'll only shark all of you.

 

[HeroMystic]

@Wobbuffet: Thank you for your participation.

 

[Inferno3044]

Defense
Lucas has PSI magnet, which on asorbtion is really safe. Lucas' PK Fire can stop alot of approaches and alot of times won't be reflected back at him. Lucas doesn't have many OoS' so pressuring his shield is easy.

I'll give you PSI magnet, but PK fire will not stop our approach. He yells "PK Fire!" and we can cape it on reaction.

Edgeguard
Lucas has decent at best options at edgegaurding, but one thing I know is that you don't want to be using your fireballs off-stage, Lucas will end up with more life (exp. Boss v. Pink Fresh). If Lucas throws a PKT at you, just DI up and you shouldn't ever get gimped by it. PK Freeze you can easily airdodge.

I'm assuming you are talking about Mario being off stage and that I agree with. If Lucas is offstage then using them is a very good idea.

Recovery
Zap Jump will be pretty hard to gimp, but it has hidden lag and Lucas has nearly no aerial mobility during it, try to FLUDD it and make him use his PKT2. Don't worry about getting hit by PKT2, just DI out and you get about 8 damage max. Obvoiusly you can FLUDD and Cape **** Lucas if he uses PKT2. If Lucas is hit up high, he's going to be using Magnet Pull. Try to U-air Lucas while he's in his Magnet drop lag. (lol, Pink Fresh)

I'm not sure what Zap jump is. On the other hand, if you get him back off stage after he uses magnet pull and force a PKT to recover, it's an easy gimp.

Character Attributes

Strengths
Strong Smashes, good mobility, long ranged grab (I don't really want to get too specific here)

Weaknesses
Bad Juggling, Horrible Grab speed and whiff, laggy Smashes, horrible grab release

Covering Weaknesses
Huge-*** U-smash to cover a large area, decent sheild pressure, our meta-game is not getting grabbed >.>

Usmash is slow as hell though. Other than that, I agree with these.

Kill Potential (Gimping would also go here)

Damage Power and KO Power
Lucas has one of the highest damage/move in the game, he has some pretty gay d-air combos and n-air combos. Lucas has high-KO power, but very few set-ups. You're going to want to watch out for D-air>D-tilt>X at higher percents, so you don't really want Lucas above you much.

Gimp Ability
Lucas is somewhat gimpable, but we've developed an anti-gimp metagame pretty well. There shouldn't be too much gimping going on in this match.

Lucas' smashes do pack a punch, but they aren't very safe. Fsmash is the only one that isn't slow, but it lacks any good range. By Gimp Ability it means how Lucas can gimp Mario.

I'm going with even or 55:45 Mario. I just don't see that slight Lucas nudge but I see a slight Mario upper hand.