The Luigi Match-Up Discussion [12TH ROTATION: King D3] Updated 8/10/08 FINALLY!

[PKboy89]

bike>>>>>fireballs
bite>>>>>tornado
bite>>>>>Luigi's common approaches

You should try to make the fight more ground based...
In the air, they are both formidable foes...
Luigi's ground based attacks flow much, much more then Wario's...but Wario short hops almost all of his attacks anyway, but still, Luigi's ground attacks have more priority then Wario's short hop attacks, try to lead the fight into ground based combat...

Wario is also jumping his *** off everywhere...he's a slippy little ******* thx to his amazing mobility, and Luigi's slow movement and bad traction can be pretty bad in certain situations...

I must admit though...despite everything I have said...Luigi still has a huge advantage over Wario

Priority= Wario's BIGGEST weakness
Luigi's aerials=giant walls of priority
Luigi's smashes=giant walls of priority

Lets...Wario...
Aerials=NO priority(Except for Up air and back air, but it still doesn't compare to Luigi)
Forward Smash=Amazing priority and SA frames...
Bike=bike of priority...still doesn't compare
Waft=EPIC
Everything else...NO PRIORITY

Wario's got some tricks up his sleeve, but Luigi still has the upper advantage in this match...Luigi is one of Wario's toughest match ups...this is like 5/10

 

[SparkEd]

I just tested it and Tornado basically ***** his bike.

:|

 

[Blue sHell]

Okay let me help you guys out here.

Luigi vs Wario:

7-3(favoring Luigi)

This is Wario's absolute worst matchup imo. Go to the Wario boards and you'll probably have everyone agree there too. LUIGI FRIGGIN ***** WARIO.

The majority of the time Warios will be in the air, but Luigi could do two aerials before landing both in which will completely and utterly destroy Wario's approach if they clash. Luigi cuts through Wario like butter. Its so sad. And because of Wario's low priority and range Luigi has no fear in air juggling him to all hell because his only option is to airdodge or surprise Luigi with a fastfalled dair.

In this matchup Wario is forced to play overly defensive and grounded and must absue fsmash as much as he can. The only time Wario will attent an aerial offense is when the Luigi is either in a vulurable state or complete caught off gaurd. Overall though, Wario is a character based on preasuring and he absolutely can't do this to Luigi. He'll have to be retreating alot and playing SUPER defensively to win this battle. His mobility must be used to save his life.

Bike < Tornado.
Wario's Airgame < Luigi's Airgame
Almost everything < Tornado

GW and Luigi are the hardest matchups Wario has. It was almost like Luigi was built specifically to counter Wario. Vs two skilled players it is possible for the Wario to win but it'd just be tons more epic if he does.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

For the record, a match that is 5/10 means it is completely even. Therefore, Wario's match-up against Luigi is 4.5 (for Luigi), as it is mostly even, but as the Wario mains themselves pointed out, Luigi still has some advantages over him.

 

[Blue sHell]

Nonono, the Wario mains are trying to tell you that Luigi ***** Wario. *****.

The matchup should be 3/10 or 2.5/10.

I wouldn't talk down about Wario like this if it wasn't absolutely true. It really is a severely bad matchup on Wario's end if the Luigi knows what to abuse and be offensive. (check the stickied guide on the wario forums to check it out).

 

[WIGI]

I say wario is a 3.5/10

its not a dificult battel, just watch out for the bit, sh down air, and ive found wario's sliding upsmash can be a bit of a pain.

otehr than that i just sheiled pressure with dair or fair or bair, then follow that wil nair- up ari upsmash up tilt or w.e you want lol.

Play smart adn youl be fine.


OH YEAH. try to sweet spot the edge while recovering with green missle or he will just bite you out of the air.

 

[DMG]

Nonono, the Wario mains are trying to tell you that Luigi ***** Wario. *****.

The matchup should be 3/10 or 2.5/10.

I wouldn't talk down about Wario like this if it wasn't absolutely true. It really is a severely bad matchup on Wario's end if the Luigi knows what to abuse and be offensive. (check the stickied guide on the wario forums to check it out).

I will make it bold so that everyone, from Luigi Mains to some of the Wario mains, understand this very clearly. LUIGI ***** WARIO!!!

Like Blue sHell has stated, this matchup is terrible for Wario if Luigi knows how to get the best of him. It's so bad that even so-so Luigi's can give us a hard time. Luigi has too much friggen aerial priority and his nair is the ultimate combo breaker, which I hate with all my passion. Even with Wario's edgeguarding and his Chomp, he has a hard time getting past Luigi's defensive wall of hurt. This Matchup is just bad, maybe even worse than facing a G&W for Wario.

Whoever tells you Wario does good or goes even against Luigi is lying. That is the simple truth.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

I've lowered the score down to 4/10.

Begin Marth discussions.

 

[VEC]

Marth 8/10 his range *****, killing potenial *****, Fair combos owned, and abuses recovery.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Marth 8.5/10 because he WASNT ****ING NERFED DUMB *** SAKURI. Range, Priority, Speed, Abuse, ****ING TIP AND POWER.

 

[Matumakka]

Marth 8.5/10 b/c of ariel rapeage, not to mention his range and power with tips....
when the hell is Ike going to be a part of this disscusio, cause ike takes a **** on luigi

 

[Eten]

Ike doesn't take a **** on luigi. But we'll save that discussion for later.

Can people offer more input on how the match works out and less just throwing numbers out and saying does/does not have aerial rapage? It may be true or whatever but we should be looking to help each other with knowledge about match-ups

Marth has a sword in the air and you don't so when you are up in the air time your airdodge and fast fall- don't try to attack or tornado which may be something you are more used to doing as it works against a lot of other characters but won't work against marth. When you juggle/combo him marth likes to use counter to stop it, so if marth gets a chance to break your string of attacks and use counter just wait and grab as he falls back down or up-B. This can help counter counter-spam by making it too punishable to be worth it for marth. Marth also likes to stop strings of hits with his up-B so be wary. Get under him to punish if he misses because of the general stun he'll have as he's falling.

Just a note to explain why they use counter or another attack to escape strings of hits- you can attack out of hitstun faster than you can do anything else in this game, like jump or even airdodge(or maybe it's that airdodging is punishable, a lot of things if they airdodge as soon as possible to avoid a hit they just fall into another attack). This is also why hitstun seems to be so low in brawl- if you went by the counter in training mode you'll notice that you can combo people if they simply try to jump out of certain moves because they are still technically in hitstun but can easily break the combo in a real match with an attack or airdodge. This is why some characters who don't get out of the reach of something like D3's downthrow chaingrab can still break the chaingrab with an attack even though they can't jump out of it yet. A few characters thus have moves that activate quick and are good at breaking out of "combos". Marth is one of them.(Luigi is too, of course)

Marth has no projectile and so even though he won't be horrible against fireballs by any means they are pretty annoying for him. Marth lost range and some small speed from melee(more than most marths want to admit) so where before you could barely get past a wall of sword he had you can now afford to shorthop, be outside his fsmash range and whatnot and punish him for missing moves much easier. Shielding is pretty good, but spotdodging is a really the very good choice vs. marth for luigi. He can spike you as well with his dair so try to avoid vertical recovery from up underneath the stage with down-B, come in horizontally with charged over-b instead. Marths who make a habit of killing you with tipped aerials off the stage will get hurt by a green missile that way too. A defensive Marth is very effective between up-B out of shield and counter to your aerials so be sure space your attacks well, and force him to approach you with some fireballs from where you can shield or especially spotdodge his approach attempts and punish him.

I'd say this places at a 7/10 which puts it right on the high end of most "even" matchups, not because luigi has any particular weaknesses to marth nor marth having any particular weaknesses to luigi, but just because Marth is pretty decent all around for when it comes to fighting Luigi due to his floatiness and quick options allowing him to avoid damage from luigi better than most and because of his quick startup tippered aerials. Basically Marth isn't any meta-knight but I have more trouble with him than G&W and most others.

 

[VEC]

Overall I'd say Marth would range from a 7.5-8.5

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Everyone is getting a little too carried away with giving ratings without support.

 

[PKboy89]

Well...Marth...he is a real prick...
AMAZING range...every single one of his attacks have range...and Luigi is a close combat fighter, so you have to be extremely careful against this guy...he has range and the tip of that range is the strongest part, and you can't really do anything to avoid getting tipped...just have to avoid the attack all together...

Yea, Marth ***** Luigi in the air...nasty attacks that all flow in, and much better range...
Marth also have some pretty nasty mind games...despite his recovery, he still does really good offstage combat, and a hard pretty good spike. Watch for his shield breaker tricks...breaking your shield is always the worst thing that can be happen in a match, and sinc he is already hacking away at your shield, getting hit with a shield breaker is really going to hurt you, try not to fall for his shield breaker tricks...

I dunno, thats just general information about Marth, its up to the Luigi mains for strats.

 

[VEC]

Marth ***** Luigi ground and Air for the most part, can get me into nasty combos becuase of floatyness, and abuses my recovery. 8/10

 

[SparkEd]

8/10

Marth has a LOT of things that outrange Luigi, especially in the air, and one of the most annoying moves in the game: Counter. The best you do with Counter is wait for to window to pass in the air and attack or grab if he's on the ground. A few of his moves have some odd ending lag to it, like FSmash or DAir so take advantage of that. Dancing Blade is a real ***** here. Just...stay away from him when he does that. Fireballs are actually not so much of a help here thansk to his moves outprioritizing them. :< But stay on your toes. Luigi has ability to stay defensive while beiong aggressive, so take note of it.

 

[VEC]

O yea counter I change mine to an 8.5 like REdmage and Matumakka dude not only all those other things I listed but counter is SOOO good and annoying

 

[Blue sHell]

[Wario

Difficulty: 4/10

Stage Counter-picks: Final Destination, Smashville

This is one of Luigi's more balanced matches, though he does have a few key advantages over Wario. Beyond this, this is also a very fun match-up and it is certain to be enjoyed. To give it a name, we can call it "Battle of the Aerials." Both Luigi and Wario have amazing air game, each with their own sets of style and usage. Luigi's aerials are faster and have more priority (especially N-air), but Wario has incredible aerial mobility and can be tricky. Approaching Wario as Luigi can be tough; Wario's chomp catches the Tornado, as well as SH double-aerial approaches. If you see Wario open up that giant gullet of his, don't go near it! Instead, disrupt it with fireballs. Again this is a match where you don't want to approach your opponent; you want your opponent to approach you. Since Wario has such a good approach and many of his mains tend to be more aggressive players, it's best to let him approach you. A common approach Wario mains use is the SH D-air (the majority, if not all, of Wario's approaches are done in SH). If you remember your spacing you can DI away and land a well placed F-smash or F-tilt, or if your closer some jabs. Be wary of the bike when on the ground; fireballs won't stop it, but a tornado will. At lower percents, keep the fight in the air to rack up damage; it's best to fight on the sides of Wario in the air. F-air and B-air become your best friends for raking up damage against your opponent, as well as N-air, which is your ace in the sleeve for beating Wario for priority in the air. Additionally, Wario's U-air can be dangerous and his D-air can chain into combos that will hurt, so if your above its best to dodge and fastfall past him, and the same if your below him. Just remember your spacing. At higher percents, move the fight back onto the ground. Again, you have advantages on the ground against Wario that you have to take advantage of, and fighting him in the air and higher percents is like begging to be clapped or wafted into oblivion. A lot of his ground moves have very punishable lag (for example, an F-smash that does not connect), so be ready to find openings for your Fire Jump Punch. Additionally, Luigi's ground moves have more flow and killing potential than Wario's. Again, be wary of the chomp; your DAC (Dash Attack Cancel), which is an extremely vital move in Luigi's arsenal in other match-ups, is susceptible to the chomp. Also be wary of Wario's F-smash; it has SA frames, high priority and high knockback and it will kill you. However it does have considerable lag if it doesn't connect, so try to read your opponent and spot dodge or roll. Overall, this match-up is mostly even, with a slight favor in Luigi. Add up damage in the air cautiously, then move the fight to the ground to kill.

I'm sorry to backtrack(and bother you Luigi mains), but theres just too much false information on this matchup for your side in this matchup.

First off if 5/10 is an even match, then this really shouldnt be 4/10. It's...just...so....bad.

And Luigi's Dair and Nair cancel out everything Wario has. Even his spinning Dair of doom that you say to avoid. Luigis could literally go super aerial offense on Wario he has to wait for him to touch the ground and CANNOT be in the air at the same time as Luigi. That is horrible for Wario, just horrible. A grounded Wario is a unhappy Wario.

And the best Counterpick would actually be anything with platforms to force more of an airgame on Wario. But as I stated, if Wario is in the air he is SOOOOOOO limited vs Luigi.

I'll leave now, just throwing that out there and hope you accept it. Go to the Wario guide and see his other matchups. This is seriously probably the absolute worst of his tiny amount of weaknesses.

 

[PKboy89]

I'm sorry to backtrack(and bother you Luigi mains), but theres just too much false information on this matchup for your side in this matchup.

First off if 5/10 is an even match, then this really shouldnt be 4/10. It's...just...so....bad.

And Luigi's Dair and Nair cancel out everything Wario has. Even his spinning Dair of doom that you say to avoid. Luigis could literally go super aerial offense on Wario he has to wait for him to touch the ground and CANNOT be in the air at the same time as Luigi. That is horrible for Wario, just horrible. A grounded Wario is a unhappy Wario.

And the best Counterpick would actually be anything with platforms to force more of an airgame on Wario. But as I stated, if Wario is in the air he is SOOOOOOO limited vs Luigi.

I'll leave now, just throwing that out there and hope you accept it. Go to the Wario guide and see his other matchups. This is seriously probably the absolute worst of his tiny amount of weaknesses.

Ok, bye...

 

[VEC]

Get back onto topic with Marth please.

 

[Eten]

Well
Marth like, frontloads all of his speed. His moves have very little start up lag, but they have moderate ending lag. The only moves that are truly fast all around is his fair and nair, and has to rely on those a lot because of it. Even then, the fair can't be completely abused because it does have some landing lag to it, which limits true short hop double fairs. He'll do a lot more spacing of single short hop fair instead. So look for the punishable ending lag the rest of the time...

 

[Locuan]

Ok you guys are being very disrespectful. Blue Shell came here to state a point and help us with the views on the Wario matchup. Just because that specific rotation is over it does not mean that we have to stop discussing him if we find that something is not right or is incorrect in someone's point of view. I do not know if you all knew it but Blue Shell is the one who wrote the character guide for Wario and I believe that hearing his opinion out is an important thing to clarify some of the dents or openings that our strategies against Wario could be. Even if he hadn't written the guide we should listen to everyones opinion on the matter.

Try to put yourselves in the same situation. You are browsing around another match-up thread and you spot that the against Luigi area has many flaws and you try to help them out and clarify somethings that Luigi can do to hurt that character or you try to tell them which attacks have priority over Luigi's moves so they have a better idea on how to counter him. I am just saying think before you write.

Pkboy and VEC, I don't want to appear harsh but please learn a little bit more of respect and hear what others have to say before jumping to any conclusions. I am sorry if I offended any of you with this but it is the truth.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Blue shell, what is written in the Wario section specifically that you disagree with? If you were a Luigi main, preparing to fight a Wario, what strategy would you implement? I value your viewpoint especially because you are aware of your character's weakness against Luigi, and know what Luigi can do to destroy Wario. Therefore, if you were a Luigi playing against a Wario, what would you do?

 

[Blue sHell]

Ok, bye...

This is the official Luigi matchup thread. It's kind of where other people beside Luigis could throw out there input. Sorry if I bothered you somehow for backtracking

Blue shell, what is written in the Wario section specifically that you disagree with? If you were a Luigi main, preparing to fight a Wario, what strategy would you implement? I value your viewpoint especially because you are aware of your character's weakness against Luigi, and know what Luigi can do to destroy Wario. Therefore, if you were a Luigi playing against a Wario, what would you do?

A quick full-on Dair > Nair when you see Wario in the air will cancel out any move he is about to do, even Wario's Dair. Everytime you see the bike just tornado him. Also, tornado notice that tornado'ing in general is a very spammable move in the matchup if used correctly. If you simply rush Wario with tornado and rise before the move is over with it you'll be left in the air afterward where you could quickly dair or nair if you think Wario will try to chase him. Luigi > Wario in the air, its sooo soo bad.

SH Double Bair creates a practical unpenetrable wall too. Notice that if you land with Nair you will have little lag too, so afterward you could jab, grab, or for mindgames even jump again and anyaerial > nair again. Because Wario's moves are canceled out by Luigis, and Luigi could do so many in the air Wario has no choice but to airdodge while falling from high above too, which makes him extremely predictable and is practically screaming for a free nair or upsmash. He could fast fall a dair and catch Luigi off gaurd but that goes without saying. Wario's main tools in the matchup will be his fsmash, his ftilt, and his grabs. Bite won't be a problem as long as you stay offensive at all costs. Just know not to be afraid of him and try to juggle him in the air as much as you can because he has nothing to break your combos except airdodging and DI'ing. And if he does manage to get you in any combos somehow know that Nair is the most disgusting combo breaker ever in existance in Wario's eyes. Don't roll too much, don't stay grounded too much, don't play spotdodge>smash attack so much, these are the things Wario will oppurtunize on. It's just as easy as don't let him move. Fireballs also are an annoyance to all hell for him. Remember that if he bikes you could just nado so he has absolutely no defense vs it either. They force him to approach aerially(most likely with an airdodge), so get ready to counter him any chance you get.

This matchup is SOOOO SOOO SOOO bad for Wario that its crazy. If any of you played Melee I'd kind of compare it to how bad Ice Climbers did vs Peach.


EDIT AFTER PLAYING DRUNK: The problem was that you didn't Short hop double aerial almost at all. If you would seriously kept on the offense with short hopped double aerials you would of put so much preasure on me that I'd have nothing to do. But you play a more ground Luigi, and when I saw that I just treated you like a regular person and just pressed preasure on you where you could of easily had it on me. Luigi's air game is what completely negates Wario. Knowing this is knowing how to fight Wario. And knowing how to fight Wario as Luigi is knowing how to completely and utterly shut down ALL of Wario's game.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Updated the Wario section.

 

[PKboy89]

10/10 because no one on this thread likes marth

 

[VEC]

lol Screw Marth.

 

[Blarfenzo]

10/10 because no one on this thread likes marth

Does anyone actually like Marth anywhere?

 

[TheMann]

Marths not as hard as he used to be in melee against luigi. Now that you have a better fireball u can force marth to approach. Then u have him where u want him. Just combo him from there. lol

Well theres more to it than that. Just to lazy to go in depth.

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Updated. ROB is the new character in the rotation. Also, Marth could use a lil more tips/strats etc.

 

[VEC]

Marth, one of the chars i find easy to jab up B, get him over 50% use it GONE.

 

[VEC]

COunter picks, FD or Smashville, DONT GIVE HIM PLATFORMS

 

[Frogger255]

I keep reading these threads and seeing that a lot of people really think Metaknight is a hard character to face with Luigi. I think its the opposite MetaKnight basically have to get close to you to rack up damage. I know from experience that MetaKnight can slash and slash away at you. But his B moves you can basically know what move he is about to do. Once he enters the helplessness animation you can punish him. MetaKnight is also a light character a well placed Fsmash does the trick with at about 75%^. I haven't looked thoroughly are there any videos of Mk thrashing Luigi.

 

[PKboy89]

I keep reading these threads and seeing that a lot of people really think Metaknight is a hard character to face with Luigi. I think its the opposite MetaKnight basically have to get close to you to rack up damage. I know from experience that MetaKnight can slash and slash away at you. But his B moves you can basically know what move he is about to do. Once he enters the helplessness animation you can punish him. MetaKnight is also a light character a well placed Fsmash does the trick with at about 75%^. I haven't looked thoroughly are there any videos of Mk thrashing Luigi.

Good metaknight players don't use b moves like *******...

 

[SparkEd]

6.5/10

ROB has an upper Advantage against the green man, but not by too large a margin. Robo Beam And Gyro BOTH Overdo your fireball easily, but luckily they aren't spammable. Still, keep a sharp eye when ROB juts his head Back; it's a Beam coming at you. Be wary it can be angled too! All his Tilts, his Dash and his FAir and UAir (Maybe his BAir too=/) come out quickly, and BAir, DAir and FAir are deadly. Airdodge a lot. Edgeguarding is a pain with this guy, too, because of the versatility of Robobooster. DSmash comes out FAST, so watch out. The trick is to keep the pressure on. I THINK you still out prioritize him (But he outranges you indefinitely for the most part) so try to keep the fight mixed up. Stay defensive, but don't be too passive or else he'll go beast on you.

 

[Frogger255]

What are yall thoughts on Pit?

 

[VEC]

Yea 6.5/10 or 7/10 ROB is annyoing and that Fair can screw up my recovery along with that Laser and Gyro. He also is one heavy ****. 6.5/10 cause he isnt as hard as SNake.

 

[SparkEd]

Oh and as for Counterpicks:
Platforms=USmash Mania, and Flat Stages=Laser Barrage. Best go with Rainbow Cruise so it varies, and it's fairly large to fight on (Or at least when you get off the boat that is >>)

 

[Leprechaun_Drunk]

Don't die out on me, Luigi boards, the marth and ROB sections are a lil skimpy.

Update: Pikachu added as the 8th character in the rotation.