The Luigi Match-Up Discussion Thread
Table of Contents
III. Rules for posting
Table of Contents
III. Rules for posting
There will be a 2-day rotation for each character. For example, we have discussed Snake for 2 days, now we will move onto the next character. In the previous format, each character gets a week devoted to him/her. While this worked well, it would take 38 more weeks (or 9.5 months) to get every character on the roster. Below, in the section entitled rotation, is the list and order for the characters. For reference, a 1/10 difficulty rating means that the match-up is completely in Luigi's favor, a 5/10 rating means the match is even, and a 10/10 match means that Luigi's disadvantages are so great that he cannot win. The numbers in between are the sliding scale (i.e. a 4/10 match-up slightly favors Luigi and a 6/10 match-up slightly favors the opponent.)
First Rotation: Snake
Second Rotation: Mr. Game and Watch
Third Rotation: Falco
Fourth Rotation: Metaknight
Fifth Rotation: Wario
Sixth Rotation: Marth
Seventh Rotation: R.O.B.
Eight Rotation: Pikachu
Ninth Rotation: Ike
Tenth Rotation: Toon Link
Eleventh Rotation: Wolf
Twelf Rotation: King Dedede
III. Rules for Posting
Post Videos, Tips, Rating of difficulty, Advantages/Disadvantages, specific approaches, Stage counter-picks, etc. Any useful information that will help advance Luigi's metagame against the Brawl roster. Do NOT post a rating of difficulty without any evidence to support it; otherwise your rating will not be taken into consideration as it has no validity.
- Sunday, August 10, 2008: Updated Toon Link, Wolf, and King Dedede match-up information. King Dedede is added as the twelve character in the rotation.
- Tuesday, July 8, 2008: Added Wolf as the 11th character in the rotation.
- Thursday, June 26, 2008: Added match-up information for Ike. Added Toon Link as the 10th character in the rotation.
- Monday, June 23, 2008: Added match-up information for Pikachu. Added Ike as the 9th character in the rotation.
- Friday, June 20, 2008: Added match-up information for R.O.B. Added Pikachu as the 8th character in the rotation.
- Wednesday, June 18, 2008: Added match-up information for Marth. Added R.O.B. as the 7th character in the rotation.
- Tuesday, June 17, 2008: Edited Wario match-up info. Lowered difficulty rating from 4/10 to 3/10.
- Monday, June 16, 2008: Spruced up the thread to make it easier to navigate and find information. Added Marth as the 6th character in the rotation.
Stage Counter-picks: Final Destination, Smashville
For this match-up, your going to want to fight in the air. Luigi's quick aerials outmatch Snake's slower ones, however, don't attack from below, as you will be punished by Snake's C4 and D-Air. Additionally, Snake's fast falling rate makes him easier to juggle with up-tilts, which lead to up-smashes. A good way to start is to use your Tornado as a set-up and go with Uptilt->Uptilt->Uptilt->SHUpair->Nair. This rack up quick damage and will also get Snake in the air, where you want him. From the ground, fireballs can be used to your advantage. Fireballs can deflect or stall his RCM and make Grenades go off early, so try to use them as much as possible. Additionally, Fireballs are very effective at stopping him from Leg locking you, Fireball from a short distance away, then approach him cautiously. In any event, when your on the ground, your going to want to get in the air. Luigi can dish out aerials extremely quickly, and can KO Snake at 95% with a well placed F-Smash tilted upwards (which comes out much faster than a normal F-Smash). If the Snake your fighting is particularly fond of his Up-tilt, and you find yourself in the air, don't DI away from Snake. Instead, move towards him. He will most likely be waiting to Up-Tilt you for a KO. Anticipate this, fast fall, and spot dodge. This will leave you on the ground free to attack while the Snake is still recovering from the lag of his attack. In this instance, you can do an Up-B to kill at low percentages.
Below are some videos, found at the courtesy of Eten.
Mr. Game and Watchhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h0ORXjhXAk&feature=related
-An alright match between two moderate players. This luigi really underestimates how fast luigi can dish out aerials however, and there are obvious times where the luigi just doesn't do things that would simply require pressing buttons a little faster, like Dair to sex kick at low % in a short hop, or sex kick to uptilt, etc. This is a good example of a Luigi that sells himself short of what Luigi can do, and because of it, approaches this match up the wrong way.
-A much better luigi who understands much better how fast luigi is. You see both nair to uptilt to aerials for damage, and downthrow to uptilt to aerials for damage. I think the snake could have been better though, so this isn't the end-all be-all of Snake vs. Luigi
This Luigi uses shorthop aerial approaches quite well, with double aerials being very frequent. I thought this one was good, but it's missing up-angled Fsmash.
Stage Counter-picks: Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Corneria, Battlefield.
This is a match where it pays off to play defensively. You need to be more cautious about using fireballs in your approach/projectile, as he can bucket them (G&W's Down-B, the bucket, catches projectiles. After it catches 3 projectiles, it becomes a powerful attack). Instead of using your fireballs as a projectile or a tool in an approach, use it to set up combos. Even if the G&W does bucket it, the Fireball is a surprisingly good set-up attack for combos. Note that when G&W buckets one of your fireballs, he has considerable lag; this is an opportune moment to use Up-b (if he is greater than 45%) This may cause your opponent to be wary of catching fireballs and you could turn some mindgames on him. Additionally, G&W has a number of good options to use against you, whether in the air or on the ground. It is important to play defensively and find openings to attack, as G&W is extremely light and is very susceptible to a FireJumpPunch or an Up-angled F-smash. You may also notice that, unlike other characters, G&W does not seem to be able to block after a quick jab. This can be used to your advantage with a Jab > Up-B combo. Patience is key in this match; look for the ending lag on G&W's moves (especially his ground moves) and then proceed to punish. Be aware of G&W's projectile (chef) as an edguard, they will cancel out your tornado and hurt your recovery. Also note that your aerials come out faster than his, but his D-air and B-air should be avoided. Also take note of G&W's F-Air; not his best move but not to be overlooked either. Spacing your aerials is crucial; don't leave yourself open for punishment because of lag in the air. Luigi can do two aerials in one SH, so you can "fake" the first and land a second. In this case, N-air is very effective, as it will open up a few options for you. Your U-tilt becomes less useful in this match, as it puts him in good position to use his D-air. A more ground-based approach in this match-up might work as many of G&W's ground attacks have very punishable lag. Overall this match is about playing conservatively; stay on the defensive and wait for the opportune time to attack.
Below are some tournament videos from Themann against a G&W.
Stage Counter-picks: Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield.
You can crawl under Falco's laser spam to get close to him. Because he is a fast faller, Falco is easily juggled with U-Tilts at low percents. Be away of his chain throws; spot dodge a bit more here and there to try and avoid them. It can rack up 60% on you and bring you to an edge, putting you in position to be spiked.
Borrowed from The Green Machine v1.5 by locuan128.
Some videos that are helpful:Falco is one of the characters that has a reflector/can reflect your Fireballs so remember only to use fireballs when your opponent least expects it. Falco also has his blaster, which dodging should do the trick to get in close to him. Bairs, Nairs and Uairs eat blue birds for breakfast. First, Bair your way in, when Falco is in the air use your Nair and Uair's when the situation presents itself. Try to shield his attacks while on the ground and come out of the shield with a grab to get him in the air. Once Falco is off stage use your Bair or Fair to chase him off to gimp his recovery Dair is good as well. As with every approach zoning is key, especially in this matchup, this is because Falco can grab you and a Falco grab at low percents equals well pain to put it that way . Still remember your zoning and spacing and you shouldn't have a hard time. Remember the blasters can be dodged or just crouch and approach your opponent this way. DI, remember that if you get grabbed as soon as you are released DI away from your opponent to evade more grabs or follow ups.
Difficulty: 9.5/10 (Actually, it's over 9000)
Stage Counter-picks: Mario Kart Circuit, Bridge of Eldin
Let the record show that this is Luigi's hardest match-up. However, it IS winnable.
This is another match-up where Luigi needs to play defensively. However, this is one fight where Luigi mains are forced to play differently than they normally would. Metaknight's aerials have greater range and priority than most of Luigi's; spacing and zoning are key in this match. Try to keep the match as grounded as possible; you will have more options and have less problems than you would in the air. Fireballs become one of your more helpful moves; aside from dodging/rolling or attacking them, Metaknight does not have a way to deal with them. Use your fireballs to rack up damage on MK from afar Metaknights Neutral-B (Mach Tornado) is actually cancelled with a fireball if it is non-rising, but be aware that if it rises at all, it will not cancel. Otherwise the best way to avoid the Mach Tornado is to run and dodge. Be wary of juggling with U-Tilt at higher percents, as MK's D-air comes out fast and will hurt you. However, at lower percents, U-Tilt > U-Tilt > U-Smash is a reliable way to rack up damage. All of MK's Special B moves give him helplessness, so be ready to take advantage of that if at all possible. Metaknight is fairly light, so incorporating the Fire Jump Punch is also important. As the match progresses and damage percents start to rise, you will eventually end up in the air. DI away from MK's attacks, or dodge. If you cannot, try N-air as a neutralizer to his aerials. It's important to work around Metaknight's gimping prowess, so if you are knocked off stage and need to make a recovery, be extra careful. Try to use Side-B (the Green Missile) so that if he does attempt to gimp you, you can still use your Luigi tornado as a recovery. Even still, MK has extreme gimping potential and recovery will prove difficult, even for Luigi. A good way to prevent this is to counter-pick with stages like the Bridge of Eldin and the Mario Kart Circuit. These stages take away his recovery-gimping advantages.
Below is an extensive explanation on the match-up from Eten.
Let's say there is a space between you and MK that's about as far as the second aerial of your short hop will take you, or about one fair short hop for MK, given that you short hop towards your opponent. Now standard habit of any Luigi would probably be to short hop some combination of aerials to approach, but that doesn't work here. So Metaknight short hops toward you, you short hop backwards and maintain spacing, and Metaknight's Fair hits air. Now Mk is on the ground, and you're in the air still ready to do any aerial, DI forward and close the gap and hit MK. At least that's the basic idea of it. Now what is important is to keep a pattern so only MK is the one being hit, because what do you do if things are off?
First, I don't ever use any move that is going to have any real amount of lag to it. That means, you really only should be using your all of your aerials, your jab, up-angled fsmashes, uptilt, and the slowest move you probably use is the downsmash, which still has quick startup time. I never use luigi's normal Fsmash or his ftilt, downtilt, green missile, or charge any smash moves. All the rest, which Upsmash, and up-B, need MK in a position that is clearly punishable, like that he's falling in general stun after his B moves, or during the lag after Fsmash or uptilt. Also, the landing lag of your aerials are pretty okay, but don't land any fairs that won't autocancel(usually Fairs are fast enough that this won't happen unless you try to fast fall it or do one in the last 1/3rd of Luigi's short hop). The tornado is an exception in all of this- it's good for chasing and punishing lag too, but it's also risky if it gets shielded completely because you do have lag on the end of it. I believe it starts the fastest if you use it just before you land on the ground, and there are definitely occasions I'll use it, but I try to do it when I'm moderately close and will get at least 4/5 of the hits on them, and even more so if their shield is somewhat weakened already because it greatly increases my chance to get a shield-poke with the move. Your tornado can also be completely eaten by Meta-knights Mach Tornado, so that's another reason I'm just at tad more hesistant to use it in this match-up than most.
This may seem pretty basic, but there is no reason for Luigi to give up punishable lag, so don't do it. Second is maintaining the right amount of space. Fireballs are an optimal choice for this. They don't carry a whole lot of hitstun, but they are disruptive to both momentum and attacks. Don't use them too close, because it won't stun long enough to avoid getting punished for the lag. However, when MK likes to just rush you on the ground for a dash attack or grab from too far away, you can just pretty much just stand and toss them. The best place or context for luigi's fireballs, however, are in one half of your retreating shorthop- in the first half, it can catch MK doing a shorthop, or keep him from jumping, and then you can do a falling nair or tornado. Or you can find that you have shorthopped into an aerial, but aren't in a good timing for it for whatever reason, use a fireball. A second effective component for spacing is luigi's Jab. I use jabs a lot to as a reliable choice when I've gotten too close, and usually just after I've landed an aerial, because they come out fast and aren't punishable if the first one hits, and if it doesn't, you aren't likely to have exposed yourself.
Now back to the original idea, to move backwards with MK moving forward. With a double aerial in a short hop, you really start to have the flexibility to handle the speed and range of MK. A shorthop to a dair is usually pretty effective- it either misses, and of course your aerial is fast enough it doesn't matter, or Metaknight just ran into it trying to use his dash attack or grab. If he's run towards you, and for some reason has rolled towards you, bair or nair will hit him. In terms of the best option after you've gotten out of the way of a shorthop approach of MKs, your fair's reach is actually a bit farther than you might have assumed(he snaps his hand out and down, which is ideal for targets in front of and slightly below you, the hand also gets pretty big, it just happens fast), or you can, again, use a nair.
Now then. If MK pulls out his Mach Tornado or Drill Rush, shield it, or if you get above his Mach Tornado, Dair it. Countering these two moves depends simply on how often you expose yourself by doing laggy attacks, and how quickly you react.
You should note how to avoid getting juggled and how to juggle MK. Despite his aerial power, MK can still at least be annoyed with uairs(it is > his dairs). The trick is is to stick to uairs ONLY and to stay almost perfectly below MK at all times. This also helps avoid glide attacks(he can't go perfectly vertical in a glide so you should be pretty much able to avoid a glide attack completely once you are perfectly under him), shuttle loops, the whole deal. I see this "stay directly below them" thing done all the time by CPUs but strangely neglected by players- you can simply upsmash from a dash on the ground even, and it forces the opponent to head for the ledge. As for avoiding being juggled, a combination of a well timed airdodge, fast falling, and falling tornadoes should help.
Now just two remaining very specific insights to handling the MK match-up. One is getting in for the up-angled fsmash. This is your ideal KO move because it is fast, and has a lot of vertical KO power. It's so fast, in fact, that if you were to spam it, it still is likely to hit. Tossing it out at MK in a way that makes him very wary of it, and forces MK into an instinctive reaction to roll behind luigi which can be punished by simply using your up-angled fsmash right behind you.(Just hold up on the control stick and little bit to the direction you want to use Fsmash, and hit over-C to smash, to change directions just tilt the control stick a little bit the other direction) If you're on a little bit of a slope and below MK, the up-angled Fsmash becomes even easier to land and will catch MK in a lot of different attempts to approach you. However, the way I most commonly land the up-angled fsmash in the midst of things is to mix up the usual spacing and simply walk just a step towards MK and use an up-angled Fsmash while luigi slides a bit. It should happen fast enough that it catches MK by surprise while he moves thinking you'll do something else.
The second thing is recovery. MK gets his best kills(possibly below 100%) by using a reverse shuttle loop either while you are above the stage(easy for him to do) or while you are coming in from below the stage(harder, he has to grab the ledge). So to solve this problem, learn to sweetspot the ledge from a charged green missile(aim a little lower than the ledge itself). A chance of misfire/strength of a fully charged over-B is pretty annoying for MK to get hit by, too. Between this and not exposing yourself in the air by never doing anything more than a shorthop and at worst use a fast fall airdodge back to the ground(ie. no double jump from the ground, no full jump from the ground, no botched attempts to juggle), MK's chances to KO you DO get reduced considerably. Then it becomes all about strong hits from his Nair and dsmash. This adds to how long you will live per stock a lot, and really really helps.
Stage Counter-picks: Final Destination, Smashville
This is one of Luigi's easier match-ups. Like Snake, you are going to want to play this game in the air. Luigi's aerials come out quicker and out-prioritize Wario's, and his entire game is aerial. Therefore, you shut him down. You can create walls with SH double B-airs, and your N-air has higher priority than almost all of his aerials. Down-B (the Luigi Tornado) also hurts his ground game, and destroys his bike. Just don't get caught in his chomp attack; it can catch the tornado and B-air/N-air. A good way to get past the chom is with fireballs, or to go overhead with D-air. Just remember your spacing when using your SH double-aerials. Also be wary of his SH D-air approach and his waft; otherwise you can juggle him in the air to pretty high percents; in the air he has nothing to break your combo's except for airdodging and DI. Unlike some other matches, this is one where you really want to have a hard, non-stop offense. Also, keep the fight in the air. Wario's best shot against you is to fight defensively on the ground, and his F-smash has SA frames and priority that can be deadly. Take advantage of him not being able to utilize his aerials by laying out aerial assaults; if he decides to go into the air, punish severely.
Stage Counter-picks: Final Destination, Smashville
This is another match where Luigi mains have to tweak their game in order to be successful. Marth and his sword have amazing range, strong aerials and tipping power, and a lot of his moves have little to no start up lag, so they come at you lighting quick. He also has counter, which can become a nuisance and a combo-breaker. He also has good mindgames and shield-breaker techniques, so be wary not to get your shield broken. This is another match where its best to play a grounded game; playing in the air is too risky, as Marth's sword out-prioritizes Luigi's aerials and greatly out-ranges him as well. Despite this, a lot of Marth's attacks have noticeable ending lag that you have to punish effectively. Marth has no projectiles, and while he is capable of dealing with fireballs, they can become annoying for him to deal with; use them more in this match Also beware of vertical recoveries, as Marth's D-air is a powerful spike. Again, I must stress the importance of spacing Just remember to airdodge and fastfall while your in the air, and fight a grounded game. Look for openings to attack/punish; also note that spot-dodging is a better choice rather than shielding in most situations while on the ground; you want to punish his lag, not get your shield broken.
Stage Counter-picks: Rainbow Cruise
In this match-up, Luigi must be moderately aggressive but also conscious of spacing himself properly so as to not get punished. R.O.B. has his Laser beam and Gyro projectiles; they cannot be stopped with fireballs but luckily are not spammable. The Gyro is canceled by your tornado. Beware of horizontal recovery as R.O.B.'s F-air can gimp you pretty easily. Also, his ground attacks have very little start up lag; they come out at you lighting quick, especially his D-smash. U-smash is also very deadly. He is heavier and can be juggled fairly well, but be weary of his D-air. Most of your aerials have higher priority as well, so take advantage of fighting in the air. Note that it is very difficult to edgeguard against R.O.B. as his recovery is extremely versatile. For the most part the match-up is even, but R.O.B. does have a slight advantage in his recovery and ability to gimp yours.
Stage Counter-picks: Battlefield.
This is another "wait and punish" match-up for Luigi. Pikachu's D-smash has higher priority than all of Luigi's attacks and can be used as a defensive option against him. Otherwise, Luigi can work around Pikachu to defeat him. A lot of players worry about Pikachu's thunder attack, but it is easy to avoid by DI horizontally and air-dodging. Pikachu's projectile is cancelled out by Luigi's tornado and by his aerials, so it is not easy for Pikachu to camp Luigi with it. Additionally, Pikachu cannot combo Luigi to higher percents very well like he can against other characters. Try and bait your opponent into using moves with punishable lag. Pikachu's F-smash has noticeable start up lag, so just be aware of when it comes and it shouldn't be too hard to avoid it. Just be weary of the D-smash, which eats shields and has very little start up lag. Also Pikachu is a fairly good ledgeguarder and can be difficult to fight off stage. Overall this match up is fairly even, just be patient and work around your opponents more laggy moves.
Stage Counter-picks: Final Destination, Smashville
This is another match-up in which Luigi's main strategy should be "wait and punish." Many of Ike's moves have considerable ending lag and are highly susceptible to punishment. Although Ike greatly outranges you with his sword, you never have to approach him; keep pressure on with fireballs until he approaches you, then launch your attack on his ending lag. If your opponent refuses to approach you can do an empty SH and DI backward, avoiding any attack, and then punish the lag. Note that in this match-up, spamming fireballs is of great use, as Ike has no way to counter it. His F-smash, though deadly if it connects (can kill you at 40%, but can be survived up to 60% if DI'ed properly) has a large amount of ending lag, leaving him open to a Fire Jump Punch, which kills Ike at 60%. Because Ike is heavy, he is easily juggled and combo'ed into higher percents. It is also fairly easy to edgeguard Ike's recovery; push him offstage with B-airs. To gimp his Foward-B recovery all you have to do is be in front of him and airdodge at the right time; he will strike out at you, miss, and fall short of the edge. Ike's jab combo is vital for him in this match (because of Luigi's fireballs), but it forces him into a very predictable pattern. Note that Ike's jab has higher priority than a fireball or a tornado, but clanks with U-tilt. Overall, this match is about being patient and playing intelligently. Spam fireballs, gimp his recovery, and punish punish punish!
Toon Link has the spamy arrows, bombs, and the boomerang. Don't underestimate his projectiles espically the boomerang, as it can go pretty far distance. The projectiles may tick you off but try to keep your cool. As for Counterpick stages, I'd suggest battlefield, because of the platforms, it'll help you setup utilts,upairs, and juggling and not to mention help even a lil avoid from projectiles. Your approachs may be rendered since Toon link basically outcamps you in terms of projectiles and that fireball and tornado can be canceled. .
Originally Posted by Eten
The reason I say the projectiles are only a minor hassle is because all of Luigi's aerials can cancel or catch all of Toon Link's projectiles(and catching a bomb with a fair is faster than an airdodge too), and he can't spam projectiles faster than Luigi can attack nor does it put Luigi in a bad position. In addition, an aerial tornado will eat boomerangs and arrows and on the ground will clank with everything else Toon Link has except bombs. This means a shorthop aerial can cancel one projectile while giving you flexible spacing and no punishable lag, a falling aerial tornado can cancel out a second projectile and Luigi can tornado towards the opponent where at best the third attack or projectile will clank.
In addition, the aerial tornado's priority over Link's projectiles counters the effect of projectiles aiming at Luigi while off the stage. If you're off the stage and equal or lower than the stage where Link's projectiles are a problem because they will interrupt your attempts to green missile for distance, you'll lose height quickly and fall to your death. However instead of coming in low with the green missile and using the second jump, tornado and up-B to rise back up to the stage, a second jump to a rising tornado both gives you defense against projectiles and lifts you out of he projectile zone so you can fall and charge a green missile to sweet spot the ledge or come over the stage.
I say over the stage because Toon Link is one of the few characters that can potentially successfully ledge hog a green missile sweetspot through his tether recovery invincibility, and that means you need to be prepared to up-B after the green missile, or sometimes it means you can end up underneath the lip of the stage on the green missile lag, like on final destination, and are unlikely to be in position to up-B recover in time. These last two points- link's tether edge hogging and projectiles gimping your recovery are not inclusive to each other, and you won't have to recovery like this every single time. Very likely you'll be hit so where you are recovering from a height that is above the stage and these things won't be as much of a problem.
Toon Link's aerials aren't so much as better than Luigi's Aerials as they are equal. Before you get incredulous realize that both Luigi and Toon Link have fantastic aerials and is a real strong suit for both of them. For the most part, Toon Link's Aerials aren't as fast as Luigi's because they have more after-lag, his bair being the exception. Same thing with range, the range difference isn't all that different between Luigi's and Toon Link's aerials and with Luigi's Bair there basically is none. That puts them both largely on par with each other.
I think this video linked by hippiedude92 just two posts above
Has a good example of the approach game that really goes on during the second stock, you see a lot of shorthop aerial spacing between the two players. One thing that VirtualVoid doesn't do that I would do is after one of those shorthops I walk into a downsmash(there is also shorthop aerial to falling aerial tornado-grounded tornado approach and dash to upsmash after a shorthop, but Void does those in the video). Mostly you can see the whole mix of shielding, shorthop double aerials, spacing with their aerial mobility, grabbing(an advantage for Toon Link, look to spotdodge it) that really makes up the majority of this match. Overall, favoring your Bair for this helps a lot, and I'm understating things a bit there. IMHO, if you can deal with the speed and spacing ability of Marth's fair, you can handle anything Toon Link has.
To be updated later.
To be updated later.