Yea Ppl who know how to play Ik eare deadly, they dont abuse his laggy *** Smashes, they use his good Aerials and space correctly. I sitll say neutral though 5/10
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The Luigi Match-Up Discussion [12TH ROTATION: King D3] Updated 8/10/08 FINALLY!
- Thread starter Leprechaun_Drunk
- Start date
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Leprechaun_Drunk
Smash Journeyman
Ike = The king of lag (In addition to being the king of noobs, which for the record means that a lot of noobs play him, not that every Ike player is a noob.). Even the best in the world have trouble against the crappiest of Ike's in the lag.
I prefer to call Ike the King of Noobs because his style relies on the mistakes of his opponents. His power makes him very effective when his opponents think only aggressively and fall into his big hits, but that isn't something he can carry to a real competitive setting because he has no way of forcing those mistakes and is left at the mercy of his opponents ability to avoid those things. If he can never land a hit, then, how much power those hits are mean nothing.
Also lag does play an important factor, like in this example
Also lag does play an important factor, like in this example
If we ignore the whole luigi returning to the stage at an high angle problem, this mindgaming of airdodging would only be possible if airdodging had some delay before activation causing luigi to use his airdodge even though Ike wasn't using his fair yet. It doesn't, though, it takes 30 frames to complete an airdodge and you are invincible for the first 20, which essentially means you can always read the startup on aerials and evade them since you go invincible as fast as the game can read your button input. The only place you need to activate an airdodge before you can read a move in anticipation is when you have that average 100 to 200 latency delay of a wifi match.
Yes I admit he can I'll admit that but see this scenario...Guilhe said:
As soon as Ike cancel's my tornado with his jab luigi's ending lag will be completely non-existence and I can spot/roll dodge behind and Ike and punish him severely. If I decide to spam fireballs I don't stay standing there. I do what I like to call the WoF or Wall of Fireballs. I just throw a fireball on the ground then one in the air, rinse and repeat followed by and approach luigi/tornado or aerial, this way my fireballs are a little less predictable and I'm set for a better approach.
If Luigi isn't doing anything, like green missile to recover to the stage (I mean he is at a high angle it doesn't matter he will reach without it anyways), Luigi has an amazing option of what he could do against Ike if the Ike were to try and edgeguard him. If Luigi still has his jump, you could jump over Ike or set for a jump>Dair etc. If Luigi does not have his jump you could also airdodge but then hit with a Fair, Luigi's comes out faster than Ike's second Fair.Guilhe said:
Luigi's aerials also come out faster than Ike's so handling Ike in the air is not hard.
I don't mind you trying to make us see different views, actually it is better I'll admit. But I have faced countless Ike's as Luigi and as a Snake secondary destroying Ike with Luigi for me is way faster/easier/more lol factor than beating him with Snake.
I would play you on wi-fi but it wouldn't mean anything because I don't take wi-fi matches seriously (laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag even with minimal lag it's just not the same).
Either way I am glad you posted a contradictory view to the match-up so people can see different player's opinions.
Leprechaun_Drunk
Smash Journeyman
Ike's would have trouble playing defensively against Luigi because of fireballs. Also, Ike is heavier, but a Fire-Jump Punch kills him at 60%...that means if Ike makes ONE mistake of using a laggy move and he's at higher than 60% then he's dead.
EXACTLY! But if you mess up His Fsmash= Dead at like 40%
Ok... lol, but it's true nonetheless I saw a video that was posted on these boards and a Mario correctly DI'd a DDD fsmash at 65% and survived.
Of course my above post is assuming the attacks were c-sticked and/or not fully charged.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Ike relies on his opponent mistakes, and he sure should be careful when caring offensive moves. But even when facing a higher tier or a counter pick character he is not facing God. They are human, and humans make mistakes. Using Ike is a exercise of pacience, but the results are satisfatory
If the tornado is canceled by Ike's jab in the middle of the animation, Luigi will be pushed back by the hit. If you rolled out from here you would stop right in front of Ike, just to be jabed. If Ike jab it at the beggining he would have less lag than Luigi, a jab combo would sucede. A jab at the end of the animation means Ike would simply jab combo Luigi.
Luigi's Fireball are slow and have predictable tragetory, depending on the distance, Ike can counter the fireball and hit the Luigi coming behind it (counter has great range, priority, SAF, how suprising)
If the jump and Dair somehow were still not get caught by Ike's Fair (It hits everything in a 200°. That would be from Ike's upper back diagonal to almost directly under him), the backward momentum from the double jump would keep Luigi at a distance that he could not fight back.
The fireballs are not that much of a problem, really. And the hitbox of the firepunch is minimal. Sometimes I miss the Aether and my brother (who plays with Luigi) tries to firepunch me from behind, somethimes he lands that dammed punch, but most times I manage to shield it and Luigi becomes a sitting duck for Fsmash. The same aplies to my smash moves. Come on, Ike isn't that **** slow! Geez... I don't know why I am writing this, it would be better for me and all Ike mains that I just shut up and let the others think that Ike is the slowest dude in all the universe.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Got video?
I couldn't agree more I mean this is what separates good Ike's from the bad.Guilhe said:
Now that I think a bit more of it, yes at times you stop in front of Ike, but in my experiences I usually end up behind him.Guilhe said:
Fireball play is different on every occasion and setting up a nice example is not easy, it really depends here on the players experience.
I'll just leave that for you to analyze a bit more, cause really I explained myself before.Guilhe said:
I don't know why you think fireballs are not a problem at least I know I have fun messing around people's head's with it. As for the firepunch I try to avoid it almost every time unless I am actually sure it will hit.Guilhe said:
You should write this don't get mad
it allows people to see contradictory points it's good actually keeps the discussion active and it's a constructive one at least. Ike in the right hands is scary I have fought/seen a lot of awesome Ike players who destroy Snake's in tourney's etc. It's just a matter of knowing how to play your character.
Here are some epic examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2taziqtWQ
By the way that last kill we call it the Nexus combo so all credit goes to him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-bKzddnEQ0&feature=related
(Puerto Rican smashers FTW!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R73FmgN_IGcGuilhe said:
Enjoy :D.
Ike stopping the tornado with a jab is moot. If Ike can jab, he could also shield. As Luigi, you know any character can shield your tornado, and then you get punished on it's ending lag. The tornado is a highly useful approach option that gives Luigi sudden extreme speed and great priority(at the very least it clanks, I can only name a few exceptions like pikachu's dsmash and MK's mach Tornado that eat it w/o clanking) that allows Luigi to tornado in suddenly and punish their opponent for using a move, either by catching them "off guard"- aka hitting them on lag of an attack they thought they were safe to use, or by out prioritizing their move and hitting them- a good example of that would be Luigi's tornado vs. Olimar, but it eats up all sorts of things like Mario throwing jabs or tilts, any number of shorthopped aerials, etc.
Fireballs are annoying simply because of the rate luigi can toss them. I don't think I've ever seen counter been a success vs. fireballs, because that would simply rely on Luigi toss fireballs without concern at such a close range. Most Ike's I know just use their jab to cancel the fireballs, which I said in my first post puts them in a predictable pattern that doesn't help them very much. If they do anything else, (like try to jump over them) they tend to really feel the repercussions of trying to approach so carelessly.
Fireballs are annoying simply because of the rate luigi can toss them. I don't think I've ever seen counter been a success vs. fireballs, because that would simply rely on Luigi toss fireballs without concern at such a close range. Most Ike's I know just use their jab to cancel the fireballs, which I said in my first post puts them in a predictable pattern that doesn't help them very much. If they do anything else, (like try to jump over them) they tend to really feel the repercussions of trying to approach so carelessly.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Luigi can go right through Ike with his tornado, or go in Ike's direction and go back. In these two situations if Ike use shield he is the one losing. He loses precious shield portions and can't counter because Luigi is too far away. If he jab or quickdraw he will make better use of the moment.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Hell, Snake sure is a broken character. And you are right about the DI.
Missing the point. There shouldn't BE a chance to jab Luigi out of his tornado.
Airwalkerr
Smash Journeyman
Toon Link= 7/10. He has a disjointed hitbox that serously ****s with your approach, and he also has a lot of annoying projectiles. don't use your fireballs here, he'll projectile right back at you, and his projectiles are far superior. Toon Link is rather predictable. Just get a feel for his pattern and punish him.
7/10 also. His aerials are beast double back air. Powerful Smashes. And his projectiles cancle out tornado then spam them. Projectiles own Luigi off edge. But Luigi can do damage back in the air.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
8/10 here Luigi has quite disadvantage in terms of projectiles. Toon Link has the spamy arrows, bombs, and the boomerang. Don't underestimate his projectiles espically the boomerang, as it can go pretty far distance. The projectiles may tick you off but try to keep your cool. As for Counterpick stages, I'd suggest battlefield, because of the platforms, it'll help you setup utilts,upairs, and juggling and not to mention help even a lil avoid from projectiles. Your approachs may be rendered since Toon link basically outcamps you in terms of projectiles and that fireball and tornado can be canceled. I haven't really tried, but try catching the bombs when he throws it. Such as airdodge. Usually if you spotdodge it, Toon Link will come in for the approach and attack. *Will check if this is possible later* As for approachs, try using well spaced bairs and keep him out of the stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgSOi2jda4
This video shows how well this luigi can approach. He Sh'd Fair'd and followup with a quick tornado setup for a juggle. Just watch out for his Fsmash as it can kill you in decent % and two steps to it. Look out for the beastly Bair as it can rack up damage pretty fast. Also watch out for the Dair. It comes straightforward down. It can also spike. So try predict if your oppenent is gunna do a Dair. Spot dodge and punish it with super punch or so. Keep yourself moving and spotdodging because of Toon link's grab has loads of lag. Once you get yourself in for a uptilt, start comboing. This match is pretty much spacing your attacks and have quick approachs.
This video shows how well this luigi can approach. He Sh'd Fair'd and followup with a quick tornado setup for a juggle. Just watch out for his Fsmash as it can kill you in decent % and two steps to it. Look out for the beastly Bair as it can rack up damage pretty fast. Also watch out for the Dair. It comes straightforward down. It can also spike. So try predict if your oppenent is gunna do a Dair. Spot dodge and punish it with super punch or so. Keep yourself moving and spotdodging because of Toon link's grab has loads of lag. Once you get yourself in for a uptilt, start comboing. This match is pretty much spacing your attacks and have quick approachs.
Ah Toon Link, I was just fighting one of the best TL's of MIT right now and I would have to say that this is definitely one of Luigi's tougher match-up's.
Toon Link: 8.5/10
Ok on to the match-up. Toon Link has an arsenal of projectiles so an approach on a TL might get a bit tricky. As for the most part your tornado clanks with the arrows canceling them but also canceling your tornado. If you are in a platformed stage get to high ground to evade his projectile's in an easier manner. If you are in a stage like Final Destination, jump over, and dodge his projectile game and an approach with a well timed Nair, Fair or Dair to get in close. Once your attacks are in range, try going for the Utilt combo at low percents to get your opponent started in an high damage racking chain. If your opponent is at a high %tage, using your aerials as approach is key. Toon Link's have a set-back and it's their down air, its fairly predictable and has tons of lag, so once you see that attack dodge and punish. Above all this match proves as a true test of spacing/zoning and dodging.
Toon Link: 8.5/10
Ok on to the match-up. Toon Link has an arsenal of projectiles so an approach on a TL might get a bit tricky. As for the most part your tornado clanks with the arrows canceling them but also canceling your tornado. If you are in a platformed stage get to high ground to evade his projectile's in an easier manner. If you are in a stage like Final Destination, jump over, and dodge his projectile game and an approach with a well timed Nair, Fair or Dair to get in close. Once your attacks are in range, try going for the Utilt combo at low percents to get your opponent started in an high damage racking chain. If your opponent is at a high %tage, using your aerials as approach is key. Toon Link's have a set-back and it's their down air, its fairly predictable and has tons of lag, so once you see that attack dodge and punish. Above all this match proves as a true test of spacing/zoning and dodging.
I disagree with projectiles being an issue. At best the projectiles are a minor hassle that move the engagement to the location of Toon Link, but they can't be used at point blank like a few projectiles so approach game is mixed from there.
The reason I say the projectiles are only a minor hassle is because all of Luigi's aerials can cancel or catch all of Toon Link's projectiles(and catching a bomb with a fair is faster than an airdodge too), and he can't spam projectiles faster than Luigi can attack nor does it put Luigi in a bad position. In addition, an aerial tornado will eat boomerangs and arrows and on the ground will clank with everything else Toon Link has except bombs. This means a shorthop aerial can cancel one projectile while giving you flexible spacing and no punishable lag, a falling aerial tornado can cancel out a second projectile and Luigi can tornado towards the opponent where at best the third attack or projectile will clank.
In addition, the aerial tornado's priority over Link's projectiles counters the effect of projectiles aiming at Luigi while off the stage. If you're off the stage and equal or lower than the stage where Link's projectiles are a problem because they will interrupt your attempts to green missile for distance, you'll lose height quickly and fall to your death. However instead of coming in low with the green missile and using the second jump, tornado and up-B to rise back up to the stage, a second jump to a rising tornado both gives you defense against projectiles and lifts you out of he projectile zone so you can fall and charge a green missile to sweet spot the ledge or come over the stage.
I say over the stage because Toon Link is one of the few characters that can potentially successfully ledge hog a green missile sweetspot through his tether recovery invincibility, and that means you need to be prepared to up-B after the green missile, or sometimes it means you can end up underneath the lip of the stage on the green missile lag, like on final destination, and are unlikely to be in position to up-B recover in time. These last two points- link's tether edge hogging and projectiles gimping your recovery are not inclusive to each other, and you won't have to recovery like this every single time. Very likely you'll be hit so where you are recovering from a height that is above the stage and these things won't be as much of a problem.
Toon Link's aerials aren't so much as better than Luigi's Aerials as they are equal. Before you get incredulous realize that both Luigi and Toon Link have fantastic aerials and is a real strong suit for both of them. For the most part, Toon Link's Aerials aren't as fast as Luigi's because they have more after-lag, his bair being the exception. Same thing with range, the range difference isn't all that different between Luigi's and Toon Link's aerials and with Luigi's Bair there basically is none. That puts them both largely on par with each other.
I think this video linked by hippiedude92 just two posts above
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgSOi2jda4
Has a good example of the approach game that really goes on during the second stock, you see a lot of shorthop aerial spacing between the two players. One thing that VirtualVoid doesn't do that I would do is after one of those shorthops I walk into a downsmash(there is also shorthop aerial to falling aerial tornado-grounded tornado approach and dash to upsmash after a shorthop, but Void does those in the video). Mostly you can see the whole mix of shielding, shorthop double aerials, spacing with their aerial mobility, grabbing(an advantage for Toon Link, look to spotdodge it) that really makes up the majority of this match. Overall, favoring your Bair for this helps a lot, and I'm understating things a bit there. IMHO, if you can deal with the speed and spacing ability of Marth's fair, you can handle anything Toon Link has.
Luigi has better KO % than T. Link here, but that won't win you the match up itself. This is largely an even match(that means a 5/10), and I don't hold the belief that the projectiles are much of an issue at all, or basically that either character presents any weakness to the other.
The reason I say the projectiles are only a minor hassle is because all of Luigi's aerials can cancel or catch all of Toon Link's projectiles(and catching a bomb with a fair is faster than an airdodge too), and he can't spam projectiles faster than Luigi can attack nor does it put Luigi in a bad position. In addition, an aerial tornado will eat boomerangs and arrows and on the ground will clank with everything else Toon Link has except bombs. This means a shorthop aerial can cancel one projectile while giving you flexible spacing and no punishable lag, a falling aerial tornado can cancel out a second projectile and Luigi can tornado towards the opponent where at best the third attack or projectile will clank.
In addition, the aerial tornado's priority over Link's projectiles counters the effect of projectiles aiming at Luigi while off the stage. If you're off the stage and equal or lower than the stage where Link's projectiles are a problem because they will interrupt your attempts to green missile for distance, you'll lose height quickly and fall to your death. However instead of coming in low with the green missile and using the second jump, tornado and up-B to rise back up to the stage, a second jump to a rising tornado both gives you defense against projectiles and lifts you out of he projectile zone so you can fall and charge a green missile to sweet spot the ledge or come over the stage.
I say over the stage because Toon Link is one of the few characters that can potentially successfully ledge hog a green missile sweetspot through his tether recovery invincibility, and that means you need to be prepared to up-B after the green missile, or sometimes it means you can end up underneath the lip of the stage on the green missile lag, like on final destination, and are unlikely to be in position to up-B recover in time. These last two points- link's tether edge hogging and projectiles gimping your recovery are not inclusive to each other, and you won't have to recovery like this every single time. Very likely you'll be hit so where you are recovering from a height that is above the stage and these things won't be as much of a problem.
Toon Link's aerials aren't so much as better than Luigi's Aerials as they are equal. Before you get incredulous realize that both Luigi and Toon Link have fantastic aerials and is a real strong suit for both of them. For the most part, Toon Link's Aerials aren't as fast as Luigi's because they have more after-lag, his bair being the exception. Same thing with range, the range difference isn't all that different between Luigi's and Toon Link's aerials and with Luigi's Bair there basically is none. That puts them both largely on par with each other.
I think this video linked by hippiedude92 just two posts above
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgSOi2jda4
Has a good example of the approach game that really goes on during the second stock, you see a lot of shorthop aerial spacing between the two players. One thing that VirtualVoid doesn't do that I would do is after one of those shorthops I walk into a downsmash(there is also shorthop aerial to falling aerial tornado-grounded tornado approach and dash to upsmash after a shorthop, but Void does those in the video). Mostly you can see the whole mix of shielding, shorthop double aerials, spacing with their aerial mobility, grabbing(an advantage for Toon Link, look to spotdodge it) that really makes up the majority of this match. Overall, favoring your Bair for this helps a lot, and I'm understating things a bit there. IMHO, if you can deal with the speed and spacing ability of Marth's fair, you can handle anything Toon Link has.
Luigi has better KO % than T. Link here, but that won't win you the match up itself. This is largely an even match(that means a 5/10), and I don't hold the belief that the projectiles are much of an issue at all, or basically that either character presents any weakness to the other.
Airwalkerr
Smash Journeyman
I agree with you about projectiles not being a very big issue, but it still sets Luigi back a bit. Luigi kinda of has to play Toons game, due to the fact that Toon has range on mostly every move to beat yours, and projectiles better than Luigis. He also is cel-shaded, giving him near-limitless power.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
I guess I can understand why you disagree the fact projectiles are just minor hassle. That's probably because most of the Toon Link's I fought were on Wifi and the fact the sit and camp and spam those projectiles. With button lag, I got no where no near them >_>"
Septuagint
Smash Cadet
I have problem, and I don't hink there's any lag, facing a toon link on Wifi, I have trouble avoiding projectiles, as they slide me a great distance. His D-Smash move is hard to avoid, as I like rolling to grab and combo, but when I roll to the other side, other then the U-Smash, he has counters for all my throws. I saw the virtual void video and it doesn't help me. How do you approach a camper?
If you fireball you stop the boomerang, and tornado to stop an arrow, but it's not enough to get close. The strategies suggested here are dealing for offensive minded toon link, but strategies for campers and spammers would be useful too.
Or it could be that my timing just sucks.
If you fireball you stop the boomerang, and tornado to stop an arrow, but it's not enough to get close. The strategies suggested here are dealing for offensive minded toon link, but strategies for campers and spammers would be useful too.
Or it could be that my timing just sucks.
You need to short hop.
Not roll or shield on the ground.
When Luigi is in the air, you can attack and keep moving at the same time. While on the ground you can only walk, and still stop when you attack.
Luigi also has all of his fastest attacks while in the air. In the air, you can not clank with attacks, one always beats the other or both hit.
Against toon link's projectiles, all of your aerials "beat" his projectiles. That is, the projectiles get destroyed by luigi's aerials but luigi does not get hit. The exception is bombs- but aerial attacks will catch throwable projectiles, meaning that you can catch bombs with your aerials too.
In one shorthop you can perform two aerials- overall, the time you are vulnerable from performing aerials is very limited. This makes it very safe and effective.
Lastly, Luigi's Tornado move has really good priority that normally clanks with T. Link's projectiles, but since you can't clank in the air, if used any time in the air- including while falling during the second half of the short hop which is the ideal time- it will "beat" any projectiles, and then on landing will allow Luigi to have a lot of speed.
On the virtual void video, watch precisely at 0:06 to 0:08. Virtual void shorthops into a fair then a falling tornado. That's a good example. But you don't have to tornado! You could just not tornado and use a second aerial and short hop again or something.
If you say you like rolling to grab, I can already tell that you aren't short hopping nearly enough in your game.
Not roll or shield on the ground.
When Luigi is in the air, you can attack and keep moving at the same time. While on the ground you can only walk, and still stop when you attack.
Luigi also has all of his fastest attacks while in the air. In the air, you can not clank with attacks, one always beats the other or both hit.
Against toon link's projectiles, all of your aerials "beat" his projectiles. That is, the projectiles get destroyed by luigi's aerials but luigi does not get hit. The exception is bombs- but aerial attacks will catch throwable projectiles, meaning that you can catch bombs with your aerials too.
In one shorthop you can perform two aerials- overall, the time you are vulnerable from performing aerials is very limited. This makes it very safe and effective.
Lastly, Luigi's Tornado move has really good priority that normally clanks with T. Link's projectiles, but since you can't clank in the air, if used any time in the air- including while falling during the second half of the short hop which is the ideal time- it will "beat" any projectiles, and then on landing will allow Luigi to have a lot of speed.
On the virtual void video, watch precisely at 0:06 to 0:08. Virtual void shorthops into a fair then a falling tornado. That's a good example. But you don't have to tornado! You could just not tornado and use a second aerial and short hop again or something.
If you say you like rolling to grab, I can already tell that you aren't short hopping nearly enough in your game.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
As Eten said, try shorthopping. Keep yourself a hard target for him to aim at. You can attack his arrows and boomerang with your aerial attacks and still keep yourself on the move. As soon as you close in, they'll stop spamming their camping attacks and fight close to you where Luigi excels in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lc2sdut_fM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2GoC61tXiE
Those 2 videos are good examples in the beginning of using a shorthop to get around the arrows quickly. The first video shows a shorthop to avoid the arrows and followup fireball. Not the greatest in my opinon but still ok. The second video shows a shorthop followup with tornado which is a great starter. So start putting those shorthops into use!
Shouldn't the Toon Link section be updated by now? It's been over 2 days by now. And i really want to get to D3 rotation. Want to see what everyone has a say on him.
Those 2 videos are good examples in the beginning of using a shorthop to get around the arrows quickly. The first video shows a shorthop to avoid the arrows and followup fireball. Not the greatest in my opinon but still ok. The second video shows a shorthop followup with tornado which is a great starter. So start putting those shorthops into use!
Shouldn't the Toon Link section be updated by now? It's been over 2 days by now. And i really want to get to D3 rotation. Want to see what everyone has a say on him.
Septuagint
Smash Cadet
I think my problem is not attacking when I short hop, because my neutral A and jump button, are hard to combine. I might have to change my jump button.
Airwalkerr
Smash Journeyman
Next Rotation!
Eten pretty much got everything on fighting toon.
Eten pretty much got everything on fighting toon.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
What character is up for next rotation? It hasn't been updated for like 3days+. I want to get to D3 rotation T.T
Septuagint
Smash Cadet
I just want to say, holy crap. Does short hopping ever help my game, as for my aerial's cancelling out projectiles, I haven't developed that yet, and my shorthopping button pressing success ratio is around 70%. What advantage that gives over Toon Link.
My Approach now is fireball, shorthop, then roll towards or use another shorthop to defeat the particular toon link I'm facing. I think someone mentioned this above, but I could never get it, and now I can.
The Toon Link who used to 3-stock me is now even with me, and I'm pretty sure, I'll eventually be 3-stocking him.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Yea, shorthop plays a big part of Luigi's offensive and defensive game. As for shorthopping aerials in cancelling projectiles, it does, but I'm not sure by how much. I don't usually cancel projectiles with aerials, I just roll or spotdodge until the time is right.
luigidude90
Smash Apprentice
i hear your point on the button lag. it just messes up my timing for just about anything i do, for example shl'ing with falco or shielding or even SH'ing double arials.
Septuagint
Smash Cadet
Yeah, that's what I try to do, but sometimes, when he does the down-smash, he gets me with the behind the sword hit, and holding the shield doesn't do much sometimes.
Septuagint
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I do the same, excpet sometimes I get surprised by the 2nd slash of his d-smash move and I keep getting hit by that. I don't know if it has good priority, or if I shield badly or have bad timing.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Toon Link's Dsmash is pretty quick from front and back. I don't usually expect it or I just haven't noticed if i'm been getting killed by Dsmashs. But the problem I mostly have with Toon link is the Fsmash. I tend to sidestep as soon as my oppenent does something to me. But I forget his Fsmash has 2 steps to it. So if I spotdodge the first Fsmash, the second one just comes out and kills me.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Well well, finally it sorta get's updated after a week or so. Well about wolf.. I'm about to fight one just now so I'll post my 2 cents maybe abit later.
*EDIT*: I just snooped around Wolf boards and they rated 6/4 against Luigi which means in Wolf's favor.
Okay so Luigi is in a slight disadvantage matchup against this spacey. Your approachs maybe rendered due to Wolf's blaster, shine, and sometime's his ranged attacks. Wolf maybe tricky if not watched carefully. For counterpicking stages, I suggest place's where he won't have to spam his blaster and place's where he can be juggled easily such as Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, sometime's Delfino Plaza and FD. Approach him cautionously a Wolf will usually always spam his blaster espically in the beginning of a match. So approach with a SH fireball since your fireball goes through his blaster. After your in about mid-range go for in opening such as the tornado. If your going with a different approach, go for SH aerials. If Wolf does SH blasters just crouch and crawl to avoid it.
Wolf has great ground-game and aerial game but the thing is that his has more lag then Luigi's. All of Wolf's attacks start in the air so you may need to keep it ground-game once in a while. He's Dsmash,Fsmash, Bair , Dair and spike are his kill moves so watch out for those. You may need to watch out when recovering if a Wolf will try to spike you but since he's pretty easy to gimp and has horrid recoverys it shouldn't pose much of a problem. Wolf's approach's will come in most shorthops so you'll have to shieldgrab most of his to get around them. He's bair come's out quick and can kill too but Luigi's Bair just come's out quicker and has better range then his.
He's Fair kill's fairly high %, and sends you up vertically but it has ton's of landing lag so get a good up-angled fsmash and firepunch. He's Dsmash is one of his best kill moves and kills. His Fsmash has alot of range and kills too so watch out and space yourself. He's d-tilt can trip you too so becareful of that. He's shine may be annoying because it can reflect your fireballs and can be a combo breaker if used properly. He's
illusion attack is one of his recoveries and can be a kill move because it has a certain hitbox which can catch you off guard so don't get it by it's hitbox.
To win this, you have to get wolf off stage as much as possible so you can gimp him since his recoveries are fairly stiff. He's a fastfaller so you can juggle him with a Dthrow, to utilts and upairs. Keep the SH aerials in hand. Use up-angled Fsmashs it kills him around 85%~freshly and a go in for a firepunch when he uses laggy moves. It kills him around 55%~ or so. Use the WoP Bair against him to keep him off stage. Keep yourself moderately aggressive. I rate this 6.5/10 slightly in Wolf's favor, but in the right hands and right timing, a Luigi can overcome this spacey.
*EDIT*: I just snooped around Wolf boards and they rated 6/4 against Luigi which means in Wolf's favor.
Okay so Luigi is in a slight disadvantage matchup against this spacey. Your approachs maybe rendered due to Wolf's blaster, shine, and sometime's his ranged attacks. Wolf maybe tricky if not watched carefully. For counterpicking stages, I suggest place's where he won't have to spam his blaster and place's where he can be juggled easily such as Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, sometime's Delfino Plaza and FD. Approach him cautionously a Wolf will usually always spam his blaster espically in the beginning of a match. So approach with a SH fireball since your fireball goes through his blaster. After your in about mid-range go for in opening such as the tornado. If your going with a different approach, go for SH aerials. If Wolf does SH blasters just crouch and crawl to avoid it.
Wolf has great ground-game and aerial game but the thing is that his has more lag then Luigi's. All of Wolf's attacks start in the air so you may need to keep it ground-game once in a while. He's Dsmash,Fsmash, Bair , Dair and spike are his kill moves so watch out for those. You may need to watch out when recovering if a Wolf will try to spike you but since he's pretty easy to gimp and has horrid recoverys it shouldn't pose much of a problem. Wolf's approach's will come in most shorthops so you'll have to shieldgrab most of his to get around them. He's bair come's out quick and can kill too but Luigi's Bair just come's out quicker and has better range then his.
He's Fair kill's fairly high %, and sends you up vertically but it has ton's of landing lag so get a good up-angled fsmash and firepunch. He's Dsmash is one of his best kill moves and kills. His Fsmash has alot of range and kills too so watch out and space yourself. He's d-tilt can trip you too so becareful of that. He's shine may be annoying because it can reflect your fireballs and can be a combo breaker if used properly. He's
illusion attack is one of his recoveries and can be a kill move because it has a certain hitbox which can catch you off guard so don't get it by it's hitbox.
To win this, you have to get wolf off stage as much as possible so you can gimp him since his recoveries are fairly stiff. He's a fastfaller so you can juggle him with a Dthrow, to utilts and upairs. Keep the SH aerials in hand. Use up-angled Fsmashs it kills him around 85%~freshly and a go in for a firepunch when he uses laggy moves. It kills him around 55%~ or so. Use the WoP Bair against him to keep him off stage. Keep yourself moderately aggressive. I rate this 6.5/10 slightly in Wolf's favor, but in the right hands and right timing, a Luigi can overcome this spacey.
Leprechaun_Drunk
Smash Journeyman
these past few weeks have been a drunken summer blur of sex, drugs, and rock n roll...i haven't really been able to update. i haven't really been able to function. but i'm gonna start updating it regularly again like i used too.
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
Lol sound's like you had some fun. At least let someone else update the guide while you have fun having secks now
But don't give up on the green machine yet! :D- Status