The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Enima]

lucas > ganondorf
/discussion

 

[ClausBound]

I kinda agree with VD, I've fought some ganons who kinda know how to **** since I used to not space my pk fire well enough. But maybe I'm just a noob lucas who can't beat PRd ganons.

 

[Clai]

I'll try to give some points about the matchup, but until a more detailed explanation is written, I can only give some general points:

Lucas can spam PK Fire all he wants, Ganon's just going to powershield it and proceed to do whatever he wants. PK Fire is so telegraphed that it shouldn't bother Ganon in the slightest.

Lucas' Nair is annoying, as Ganon can't do anything to stop him from abusing it if his only option is to shield it. However, since Lucas has an okay-at-best mobility, Ganon can use his own aerial game to keep Lucas at bay or just stuff any aerial approach with F-tilt. Of course this is heavily prediction-dependant, as Lucas can just shield F-tilt and then hassle Ganon with his aerial game.

Ganon can SDI Lucas' Nair and Dair to cause problems. I don't know what kill set-ups Lucas has, but Ganon's going to be especially careful to SDI out of Lucas' Dair when he's near kill percentages.

I see PK thunder becoming a big problem for Ganon, but I don't know when Lucas will have the opportunity to take advantage of the move.

Lucas obviously has superior options to Ganondorf, but I don't see anything that falls in the "shuts Ganon down" category. Therefore, I'll put it at 60-40 (in Lucas' favor) for now, but I'll wait for a more detailed analysis to show.

 

[Chuee]

PK Thunder is a big problem for Ganon offstage.

 

[Kole]

nairnairnairnairnairnairnair

 

[#HBC | J]

seriously if Ganondorf is offstage a good Lucas will not let him get back to the stage. However if the head of PKT hits ganon's rising recovery doesn't PKT stop? hmm idk -goes to check-

However I think the MU is 60:40. Yes we can mess Ganon up but not completely shut down every option he has. (Unless he is offstage *whistles*)

Nair as said above messes ganon up alot. Dair as well. This was said above so just repeating the facts again ;P

 

[Kole]

I agree with 60:40.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ganon has decent grounded range on his moves, which with the correct analysis, he can easily beat n-air approaches. However if we do find the opportunity, then n-air combos can be done to deal significant damage. When he's in front of you trying to land, they typically will avoid using f-air (duh), d-smashing their landing like that seems quite plausible.
I also have a worry about u-air, it has great range and if he can trade hit's with d-air, it would definitely be good for him. Also, watch out for the backside of his u-air offstage it's a great gimping tool.
I'm not really seeing how PKT will at all be destroying a ganon. First of all, he can usually u-air it to cancel it out. If he can't then he can just DI correctly and get a free ride back to the stage (with the cost of a little damage). Seriously, Lucas' PKT sucks.

60:40 IMO.

 

[#HBC | J]

PKF and PKFreeze are good gimping tools it seems. Mostly better then PKT.

PK Freeze is my favorite though imo.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

He falls too fast for PKFr to be effective.

 

[ClausBound]

So does that mean pk fire is best on stage and pkt is best off stage and gimping wise?

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you're going to use PK Fire...basically bait his Dash attack or something, run away, and B reverse it, otherwise most Ganon players will be deliberately trying to powershield it and wait until they are in D-tilt range.

Or I guess you could actually use it to edgeguard him, force an airdodge/midair jump, and then profit?

But yeah if he doesn't U-air through PKT, he hates getting hit by it.

I don't think he can punish it. Plus shielding DA = free grab.
The MU's around 65-35.
Go with RC for your CP. If he bans that go Frigate.
This MU is pretty easy as long as you don't run into his ****.

Yeah he can't punish it if it's spaced at like max range, but at mid range, his DA is perfectly viable for punishing PK Fire...which has like at least a half second of ending lag lol.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah he can't punish it if it's spaced at like max range, but at mid range, his DA is perfectly viable for punishing PK Fire...which has like at least a half second of ending lag lol.

Uh why the **** would we be using PKF that close? Ganon's DA gets shieldgrabbed.
Also, i've played this MU a lot, imo it's 65-35.
Theres not a lot Ganon can do once you learn to get around his extremelly slow moves.

until you look at the frame data for those moves.[/COLOR]
which with the correct analysis, he can easily beat n-air approaches.
Since when do we approach with Nair
However if we do find the opportunity, then n-air combos can be done to deal significant damage. When he's in front of you trying to land, they typically will avoid using f-air (duh), d-smashing their landing like that seems quite plausible.
I also have a worry about u-air, it has great range and if he can trade hit's with d-air, it would definitely be good for him. Also, watch out for the backside of his u-air offstage it's a great gimping tool.
Maybe you shouldn't be putting yourself above Ganon. Also the best Ganon can do to us offstage is knock out our DJ. Then we can just PKT back fairly easily.
I'm not really seeing how PKT will at all be destroying a ganon. First of all, he can usually u-air it to cancel it out.
Then stop moving the bolt above him.If he can't then he can just DI correctly and get a free ride back to the stage (with the cost of a little damage). Not when his % is high enough.
Seriously, Lucas' PKT sucks.
You're doing it wrong.

Also, it's not like you cant just wait for him to use his up-b and get hit by it and knock him out of it(0 hitstun)/Grab the ledge and punish.
Seriously, Ganon's recovery sucks.

 

[Kole]

Seriously, Lucas' PKT sucks.

 

[Clai]

Uh why the **** would we be using PKF that close? Ganon's DA gets shieldgrabbed.
Also, i've played this MU a lot, imo it's 65-35.
Theres not a lot Ganon can do once you learn to get around his extremelly slow moves.

If the Ganon player is allowing Lucas to run circles around him because Lucas is getting around his "extremely slow moves," then the Ganon player is doing it wrong. Ganon's aerial game is far from slow, with the exception of the landing lag from Fair, but he's not really going to be using that move much.

Also, it's not like you cant just wait for him to use his up-b and get hit by it and knock him out of it(0 hitstun)/Grab the ledge and punish.
Seriously, Ganon's recovery sucks.

The only move that Lucas can hit Ganon out of his up-b is Nair, which will do like 3% damage and send Ganon nowhere since he's obviously going to DI away from Lucas. Lucas can't take advantage of Ganon's up-B.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Not even U-air?

 

[Chuee]

If the Ganon player is allowing Lucas to run circles around him because Lucas is getting around his "extremely slow moves," then the Ganon player is doing it wrong. Ganon's aerial game is far from slow, with the exception of the landing lag from Fair, but he's not really going to be using that move much.

Dair is slow. Uair and Bair aren't that slow. If we don't put ourselves above Ganon, that leaves him with Bair.
Don't matter if we can hit him out of his up-b or not. You can grab the ledge and punish him if he makes it back on stage.

 

[smashkng]

Dair is slow. Uair and Bair aren't that slow. If we don't put ourselves above Ganon, that leaves him with Bair.
Don't matter if we can hit him out of his up-b or not. You can grab the ledge and punish him if he makes it back on stage.

You forgot that Ganon's Nair is also fast. And Bair hasn't a much lower hitbox than Uair because Ganon's Uair is like a Nair (hits both sides and the ending hitboxes are low).

 

[Chuee]

You forgot that Ganon's Nair is also fast. And Bair hasn't a much lower hitbox than Uair because Ganon's Uair is like a Nair (hits both sides and the ending hitboxes are low).

Ganon's Nair only ACes in a full hop, plus you can DI out of it. Ganon's Uair won't hit Lucas if Lucas is grounded.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's Nair only ACes in a full hop, plus you can DI out of it. Ganon's Uair won't hit Lucas if Lucas is grounded.

Ganon's Nair isn't a multi-hit move, and the 1st hit is actually stronger than the 2nd one.

 

[Chuee]

Nair still only works if we're in the air. And you could just Uair us instead.

 

[Clai]

Not even U-air?

You can, but it involves precise timing, both with the attack and DI (DI downwards if you're trying Uair). Also, I think it's impossible after Lucas hits 50% or so, as Lucas is sent too far to retaliate with that move afterwards.

I also found that the sourspot of Fair works as well, but again, very precise timing and DI, and possibly percentage-based as well.

I tested this all today, just so I could give you accurate information.

@Ganon's Nair, that move is going to be used as a combo breaker and a bait. It doesn't have that much landing lag either, so we won't be afraid to use short-hop Nairs, especially as the hitboxes linger.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

U-air is f4 (as fast as n-air) and has more range.

 

[Clai]

U-air is f4 (as fast as n-air) and has more range.

Are you referring to horizontal range here? You have to take into consideration that Lucas is getting sent away while Ganon moves up and away. Lucas' Nair easily hits the hurtbox of Ganon that's closest to him, while it's significantly harder for Uair to hit that same spot. It definately takes a lot more effort to use Uair against Ganon's up-B than Nair.

 

[#HBC | J]

Since people haven't posted here in a couple of days....

Stages?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Stage Discussion now

 

[~Nasty~]

Went to a tourney this past weekend and money matched Clai's ganon w/ my lucas since we were on this MU discussion. I won' (2-0).

Then i faced him in loser's bracket, again won (2-0).

I used Nair alot as well as FH Dair and mixed in some Uairs when he was on platforms above me. A big thing that i did notice was that after awhile of spamming pkf, he would just walk and perfect shield them. i would switch it up by running away and shooting pkf, then after that, i would run away and bair as he chased me. Just switch it up and mind game ganon to wrack up damage in this MU, but avoid getting close.

STAGES:

I banned Halberd in both sets. In our mm he cp'd me to BF... in our tourney set he CP'd me to either Final D or Smashville (i don't recall).

 

[Clai]

Went to a tourney this past weekend and money matched Clai's ganon w/ my lucas since we were on this MU discussion. I won' (2-0).

Then i faced him in loser's bracket, again won (2-0).

I used Nair alot as well as FH Dair and mixed in some Uairs when he was on platforms above me. A big thing that i did notice was that after awhile of spamming pkf, he would just walk and perfect shield them. i would switch it up by running away and shooting pkf, then after that, i would run away and bair as he chased me. Just switch it up and mind game ganon to wrack up damage in this MU, but avoid getting close.

STAGES:

I banned Halberd in both sets. In our mm he cp'd me to BF... in our tourney set he CP'd me to either Final D or Smashville (i don't recall).

Let it be known that my opinion of the matchup doesn't change in the slightest after fighting Nasty. Nasty knows my Ganon very well from having played in the past and he simply outplayed me (GG's Nasty). It really is a matter of mindgames and getting the other character in disadvantageous positions that you can use to rack up damage.

I counterpicked PS1 in our tournament set. It's a personal favorite, not really a CP for matchup purposes.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Clai, what would you say are overall Ganon's best stages?

 

[heytallman]

Once in a low tier tournament, I beat this guy's Falcon game 1, and then he went Ganon and beat me the next 2 games. wtf?

 

[Chuee]

RC is pretty much an auto-win.

 

[#HBC | J]

so what's the best neutral to fight on?

I seem to like FD for this MU.

 

[Chuee]

FD & SV.
BF platforms work well for Ganon, but then again platforms work well for Lucas =/

 

[#HBC | J]

I was thinking that about BF.

We all know never to go to YI x_x

I'd say it's a safer bet to go FD or SV. BF is fun though because it is truly neutral to the two because they both do pretty okay there.

 

[Clai]

Clai, what would you say are overall Ganon's best stages?

For neutral stages, Battlefield is our best stage, with Smashville probably a good bet for second. For counterpicks, Brinstar is the general consensus for our best stage, but after that it's probably a toss-up based on personal preferences, although I personally love playing on PS1.

I happen to like Rainbow Cruise and think Ganon doesn't do terrible there, but that's all contigent on how well the Ganon player knows the stage. A Ganon that knows how to navigate that stage will make it far from the auto-win you seem to be suggesting.

 

[#HBC | J]

so what are Ganon's worst stages overall? For neutrals and counterpicks?

divulge your weaknesses to us (jk) xD

 

[Tokaio]

I would definitely want to end up on FD. FD takes camping to the next level :D
So, strike BF and YI/PS1 (if it's a neutral)
Ban Pirate Ship if it's legal.
Don't CP Brinstar or Norfair. I prefer Frigate/RC.

 

[Clai]

I would definitely want to end up on FD. FD takes camping to the next level :D
So, strike BF and YI/PS1 (if it's a neutral)
Ban Pirate Ship if it's legal.
Don't CP Brinstar or Norfair. I prefer Frigate/RC.

If you want to try and camp Ganon sure take him to FD, but most likely the Ganon player will sit back, brush off your camping and wait for an opportunity to **** face. Smart players won't mind camping in the slightest.

The two stages that Ganon will likely strike for neutrals are YI and Lylat. YI completely constricts the open space Ganon can move in and does nothing to help Ganon from aggressive characters getting inside and exposing his massive weaknesses inside. Lylat is a similar, but less terrible, route, as the platforms and slanted stage restrict the area that Ganon can move around in and still be safe.

For counterpicks, Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, and (this is my opinion, not sure what the consensus on this one is) Castle Siege are fine choices to CP Ganon. Really it's a matter of which of these stages you're most comfortable with.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

A'ight I got unlazy enough to update the OP.

Next discussion is Yoshi.

 

[Chuee]

50-50 or 55-45 Yoshi.
He has a GR CG on us that leads into an Usmash.
PS his Eggs, PKF is good.
When he's recovering low, he usually throws an egg before using his DJ. PS the egg and use Dsmash on his DJ. If it doesn't hit the SA, you can gimp him.