stingers
Smash Obsessed
you can dtilt without crouching
-
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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic
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rPSIvysaur
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w/o it's 1 frame lol...
Anyway, since I'm already using a post, do you want to friendly at the next billfest. I'm poor and don't have extra money to MM
Anyway, since I'm already using a post, do you want to friendly at the next billfest. I'm poor and don't have extra money to MM
stingers
Smash Obsessed
you probably know the rob matchup really well. lets do it
ZMan
Smash Master
id imagine jabbing would be a good idea if he gets close, seeing as our jab comes out frame 2 iirc (doesn't clank with dsmash?)
rPSIvysaur
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If he gets close is the problem... The thing is we only get the chance to use jab if I use n-air in which I usually always clank, but after that he has to PS our jab again.
Nah, ROB can gimp us. That Fair can just keep hitting you if you don't watch out for it. And then there's silly things like gyro's to the PK Thunder which he can kind of set up with lasers.
Our jab beats everything he has on the ground. It's seriously not that bad of a matchup. I've never lost to a ROB where I didn't feel like I was being outplayed.
Our jab beats everything he has on the ground. It's seriously not that bad of a matchup. I've never lost to a ROB where I didn't feel like I was being outplayed.
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
all this talk about spiking ROB makes me wonder... Are the ROB's you guys are playing not using Uair while they recover? Anytime i go for a spike on a ROB he is there with an Uair while in UpB. Hence why i don't even bother trying for that anymore unless the ROB is careless in his recovery. And in case nobody knows (but i would hope everyone does know) ROB can't air dodge when he is using his upB so he's kinda vulnerable (with the exception of him being able to use his aerials).
Galeon
Smash Ace
You gotta use your invincibility. Since he doesn't rise really fast, it's easy to time the ledge grab if he comes from low.
HelpR
Smash Ace
watch out for the linger on the bair.
rob has no answers for attacks from below him, as dair is bloody slow and nair is his best option, which is still fairly slow.
i find that trying to spike him is too difficult, however, going for the bair just to put him in a bad spot can be useful if you space it well enough.
safest option for attacking rob when he's off the stage is PKF. PK freeze is an option when he's coming in low, and PKT is good for when he comes in high, however, don't expect to be able to actually hit rob with PK freeze or thunder without getting whacked with a gyro or a laser.
shield pokes are fun, especially getting a fair and bairs.
an annoying trick is the rather good glide toss that ROB possesses, combined with his up smash and his fsmash, you need to make sure you dont get caught with it. shielding is not a safe option because he can merely glide toss to grab.
this is one of the few matchups with the lucas item jump is actually useful, as the gyro doesnt explode when you hold it, not to mention the fact that this wrecks a good amount of robs far range options, allowing you to either space with PKF and magnet whenever he lasers, or to force him to close the gap then get inside him and combo to your hearts content.
The gyro can be your best friend or your worst enemy here, practice with this matchup and some obscure lucas techs can even this matchup out a decent bit.
playing defensively is the name of the game here, and holding onto the gyro makes you really difficult to kill. get rid of the glide toss, and a large number of ROB's options while on the stage are lessened. dont think he's completely vulnerable however.
moves to watch out for on the stage:
glide toss to fsmash, usmash, and grab
dtilt
ftilt
bair
nair
moves to watch out for when you're off the stage and ROB is pursuing:
bair (hey hey lingering hitbox.)
dair (easy to read, dont get caught by it.)
laser
gyro
moves to watch out for when ROB is off the stage and you're pursuing:
fair
uair
bair
laser
(something fun when forcing ROB to recover low and close to the stage is to run off the ledge and bair spike or fair stagespike. usually doesnt kill but it can set up for some pretty painful kills.)
i'd say 45:55 in rob's favor. 40:60 at the very worst.
rob has no answers for attacks from below him, as dair is bloody slow and nair is his best option, which is still fairly slow.
i find that trying to spike him is too difficult, however, going for the bair just to put him in a bad spot can be useful if you space it well enough.
safest option for attacking rob when he's off the stage is PKF. PK freeze is an option when he's coming in low, and PKT is good for when he comes in high, however, don't expect to be able to actually hit rob with PK freeze or thunder without getting whacked with a gyro or a laser.
shield pokes are fun, especially getting a fair and bairs.
an annoying trick is the rather good glide toss that ROB possesses, combined with his up smash and his fsmash, you need to make sure you dont get caught with it. shielding is not a safe option because he can merely glide toss to grab.
this is one of the few matchups with the lucas item jump is actually useful, as the gyro doesnt explode when you hold it, not to mention the fact that this wrecks a good amount of robs far range options, allowing you to either space with PKF and magnet whenever he lasers, or to force him to close the gap then get inside him and combo to your hearts content.
The gyro can be your best friend or your worst enemy here, practice with this matchup and some obscure lucas techs can even this matchup out a decent bit.
playing defensively is the name of the game here, and holding onto the gyro makes you really difficult to kill. get rid of the glide toss, and a large number of ROB's options while on the stage are lessened. dont think he's completely vulnerable however.
moves to watch out for on the stage:
glide toss to fsmash, usmash, and grab
dtilt
ftilt
bair
nair
moves to watch out for when you're off the stage and ROB is pursuing:
bair (hey hey lingering hitbox.)
dair (easy to read, dont get caught by it.)
laser
gyro
moves to watch out for when ROB is off the stage and you're pursuing:
fair
uair
bair
laser
(something fun when forcing ROB to recover low and close to the stage is to run off the ledge and bair spike or fair stagespike. usually doesnt kill but it can set up for some pretty painful kills.)
i'd say 45:55 in rob's favor. 40:60 at the very worst.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Lol at Dsmash not being on the list of moves to look out for.
rPSIvysaur
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You make it seem like ROB has no range on his f-tilt and stuff, it easily outranges nearly all of Lucas' approaches, he also has the ability to Laser while we PK Fire and he can just use it while we are out of range, and of course he's not going to use Laser once you hold your Magnet up, he'll just come closer in the lag to f-tilt or d-tilt you so he can set up for a laser. Camping a ROB that actually knows the MU well won't work.
HailCrest
Smash Journeyman
I always thought that short hopping an airdodge was a safe and effective way to pick up his gyro.
Guess not.
Guess not.
rPSIvysaur
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Oh yeah, if he shoots it at the ledge, ledge drop and double jump airdodge to pick it up
SHAD is a good way too, but after the airdodge he can do s*** to you while you have limited gyro options, I prefer F-smash (I lol'd when I reflected a laser while I was making the Gyro mine)
SHAD is a good way too, but after the airdodge he can do s*** to you while you have limited gyro options, I prefer F-smash (I lol'd when I reflected a laser while I was making the Gyro mine)
The idea is too make him approach.
Oh, and his Dsmash is really easy to DI out of. Seriously, there's no reason to be afraid of it.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol not even top pros DI out of dsmash consistently. like seriously >.>
and i actually like it when ppl DI out of my dsmash because they never react fast enough and i hit them with something else
normally another dsmash
seriously theoryfighter bros brawl is stupid
if you have any vids of you DIing out of a robs dsmash throughout the entire match i'd love to see them
and i actually like it when ppl DI out of my dsmash because they never react fast enough and i hit them with something else
normally another dsmash
seriously theoryfighter bros brawl is stupid
if you have any vids of you DIing out of a robs dsmash throughout the entire match i'd love to see them
Nope, I'm terrible at DI.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
"Oh, and his Dsmash is really easy to DI out of. Seriously, there's no reason to be afraid of it."
"if you have any vids of you DIing out of a robs dsmash throughout the entire match i'd love to see them"
"Nope, I'm terrible at DI."
If only that would fit in my sig
"if you have any vids of you DIing out of a robs dsmash throughout the entire match i'd love to see them"
"Nope, I'm terrible at DI."
If only that would fit in my sig
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
i use to play a lucas all the time. I was better then him at the game but it gave me a good idea how this MU went and i can say its a 60/40 in ROBs favor imo.
ROB can camp lucas so lucas has to approach. ROB is great at edge guarding and even through Lucas is not as easily gimped as Ness its still not that hard to do. There is more to this MU but i don't feel like going into detail right now so these two are enough for now.
ROB can camp lucas so lucas has to approach. ROB is great at edge guarding and even through Lucas is not as easily gimped as Ness its still not that hard to do. There is more to this MU but i don't feel like going into detail right now so these two are enough for now.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Rob is NOT predictable when recovering....unless this rob is a ******. And for you Lucas players I would advise not coming off stage to gimp us or anything of the sort.
This depends...on the situation if they're recovering low try this...if not then don't.
About grabing our gyro and camping it doesn't really work....ask Rocket.
No at close range rob has tilt range...also PKF is shield grab able.
Vury true.
Stingers is right rob does better at close up...than lucas.
Im gonna add to this later i gotta go im at school when i did this.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Maybe I worded it wrong. ROB is easy to hit when he's recovering. Since ROB can't airdodge and only can attack, Lucas has a decent chance at hitting us since we can only duck and dodge so much offstage.
As for canceling out PKT, it works anywhere, not just low.
As for canceling out PKT, it works anywhere, not just low.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Some of what rPSI said will be repeated, but this is to enforce the meaningfulness of the subject.
okay here's the deal if the rob doesn't use his tilts than...the close-up part of this MU can be easier.
Rob forces approach, because of the many trixies/mindgames in his arsenal.
EX: Rob can: Retreating F-air into Gyro.
SH gyro charge. (and just land w/ gyro out)
SH gyro-cancel
wave-bouce gyro cancel.
variations of gyro charge. (making it so the opponents doesn't know it's charge)
retreated Nair into f-tilt(most of the time robs will make sure this, purposely, misses and land with f-tilt.
ETC. those are the main ones.
Do not try to camp us...it will not help lucas.
Robs, especially ones w/ camping experience, will vary camp game, meaning PKM is useless.
Keep rob at the furthest range of PKF this make almost any sort of approach rob tries at a minimum.
If rob is above lucas be very happy!
this is pretty much his biggest weakness in this, noting that rob can camp and do a good job at close range.( I guess this is sort of lucas' goal, to take adv. of his blind spot.
If rob tries to b-air lucas' reaction should be either Nair, Uair, or Fair....our Bair is to sslloooooooooooowwww.
Like mentioned earlier....whatever you do...DO NOT let have possession of his gyro....this will lead gyro combos, camp mind games, and even more pressure on lucas.
Try not to approach w/ Fair it's easily Shield grabbed.
Approaches that'll work are correctly spaced Nair and Dair...these are most likely the best approaches lucas has against rob.
Our ways of killing will be Nair (which we'll have saved), Bair (if we buffer it in, some how), b-throw,u-throw which will kill at bout 175% range, gimps, f-smash, and D-smah.
Rob can grab pretty often in this match-up so spacing approaches is a must.
Do not be above rob he has lots of options. Rob can u-air, f-air, gyro/ GT, u-tilt.
I mean it's not that bad, but it's gonna help rack up quick/extra damage on lucas, which can easliy be avoided.
Also..w/ a little predicting rob can be kept of stage for a while...this is something Rocket would know more about than me...so ask him.
Picking up rob's gyro can mean trouble for lucas...a laser to the face when trying to get a hold of it, close up combat which could put lucas in multiple bad positions, even if get a hold of it we'll get of it..like all of robs moves can cancel his gyro. So just do what rPSI said.
Rob has lots of d-tilt options especially trip to F-smash, grab, grab realease combos, dash atk, and d-smash.
Hope all of the Lucas' will do better against R.O.B. with this MU explanations from me, rPSI, and my rob buddies, which came and helped.
I'll post rob's frame data below:
There are lots of other options w/ glide toss , but I don't use that many...Ok guys it's time for the wall of text... I'll probably update it later...
Ok, so here's the deal:
ROB's N-air has a huge disjoint and can be spaced well. He tries this, you're going to want to PK Fire his landing. However you have to time it well otherwise he'll PS it. Retreating F-air is also pain to get around, it has a good disjoint, but a well spaced f-air should do the trick, or like always PK Fire his landing.
Once we get inside, we have limited options. We're usually going to n-airing inside. When you land your n-air behind him (don't land in front of him) always jab, otherwise you'll eat a d-smash. As soon as your jab clashes with D-smash get out of there and put him in range of PK Fire.
D-air is pretty legit because his u-smash has very limited range, but always make sure you space it correctly or you'll get grabbed (duh)
Knowing your PK Fire range is key in this MU because ROB forces approaches if you guy just a little bit too far out of range, and he has really good defense close up.
Once you're out of PK Fire range, this is when you're going to want to either
A) just stand there and wait for his projectiles
or B) try to get back to PK Fire range
Once you're out of range, he'll probably have his Gyro charged up for quick access. If he shoots his gyro don't try to pick it up immediately, if you can shield it. If you can't don't pick it up, but f-smash it to make it yours once it's yours pick it up and throw it upwards or wait for him to approach you or try to get the gyro back. At that point you can usually expect a laser or f-tilt. If he's far away, try to look for the animation of him starting to fire his lasers, or at least try to predict it and put your magnet up. If he comes and f-tilts, get behind the gyro and PK Fire to punish him. NEVER LET ROB PICK UP HIS OWN GYRO
If you try to PK Fire when you're out of PK Fire range, you'll eat a lazer, or possibly a gyro. Off stage we have very limited options against him. He might be able to get an F-air off against us, but it shouldn't be able to gimp us unless it kills us off the sides. He can possibly get a B-air on us if we PKT2 back to the stage, but we it's slow and we can predict it.
ROB's F-tilt has hunormous range, don't challenge it with any of your moves. Just try to stay out of his F-tilt range and PK Fire. When he's charging his gyro he usually will be retreating, before you try to PK Fire read the direction he is going, he can't change directions while charging without airdodging first so run up and PK Fire. Oh yeah, and never do SH Wavebounced PK Fire in this MU, otherwise, laser.
IMO 40:60
He beats us solidly, but not unwinnable, as long as he knows how to space against PK Fire.
I'm probably going to do friendlies tomorrow with 6Mizu so I'll try to get some .bins to upload (can any of you record it with your comp?), but again we'll be playing BBrawl (but it's exactly the same physics and Lucas and ROB weren't changed too much. Lucas doesn't have d-tilt lock, but you guys know when to use that. You guys really shouldn't see much of a difference and the MU will be played near exactly the same). I'll also try to see what the d-throw to u-tilt precent is while we do friendlies.
okay here's the deal if the rob doesn't use his tilts than...the close-up part of this MU can be easier.
Rob forces approach, because of the many trixies/mindgames in his arsenal.
EX: Rob can: Retreating F-air into Gyro.
SH gyro charge. (and just land w/ gyro out)
SH gyro-cancel
wave-bouce gyro cancel.
variations of gyro charge. (making it so the opponents doesn't know it's charge)
retreated Nair into f-tilt(most of the time robs will make sure this, purposely, misses and land with f-tilt.
ETC. those are the main ones.
Do not try to camp us...it will not help lucas.
Robs, especially ones w/ camping experience, will vary camp game, meaning PKM is useless.
Keep rob at the furthest range of PKF this make almost any sort of approach rob tries at a minimum.
If rob is above lucas be very happy!
this is pretty much his biggest weakness in this, noting that rob can camp and do a good job at close range.( I guess this is sort of lucas' goal, to take adv. of his blind spot.
If rob tries to b-air lucas' reaction should be either Nair, Uair, or Fair....our Bair is to sslloooooooooooowwww.
Like mentioned earlier....whatever you do...DO NOT let have possession of his gyro....this will lead gyro combos, camp mind games, and even more pressure on lucas.
Try not to approach w/ Fair it's easily Shield grabbed.
Approaches that'll work are correctly spaced Nair and Dair...these are most likely the best approaches lucas has against rob.
Our ways of killing will be Nair (which we'll have saved), Bair (if we buffer it in, some how), b-throw,u-throw which will kill at bout 175% range, gimps, f-smash, and D-smah.
Rob can grab pretty often in this match-up so spacing approaches is a must.
Do not be above rob he has lots of options. Rob can u-air, f-air, gyro/ GT, u-tilt.
I mean it's not that bad, but it's gonna help rack up quick/extra damage on lucas, which can easliy be avoided.
Also..w/ a little predicting rob can be kept of stage for a while...this is something Rocket would know more about than me...so ask him.
Picking up rob's gyro can mean trouble for lucas...a laser to the face when trying to get a hold of it, close up combat which could put lucas in multiple bad positions, even if get a hold of it we'll get of it..like all of robs moves can cancel his gyro. So just do what rPSI said.
Rob has lots of d-tilt options especially trip to F-smash, grab, grab realease combos, dash atk, and d-smash.
Hope all of the Lucas' will do better against R.O.B. with this MU explanations from me, rPSI, and my rob buddies, which came and helped.
I'll post rob's frame data below:
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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WTH is PKM?
6Mizu
Smash Champion
PK magnet????
I guess..
lol!
I guess..
lol!
Kirby Yellow
Smash Rookie
It's Psi Magnet
I won't post because I have no experience in this MU. I prefer reading tha posting(This last phase is correct? lol)
I won't post because I have no experience in this MU. I prefer reading tha posting(This last phase is correct? lol)
Levitas
the moon
Rob maintains most of his advantages when retreating, so the appropriate call may end up being chasing him from outside melee range of both characters to the end of the stage and threatening to close the gap till rob commits with a punishable move like d/fsmash or landing w/ fair.
Even if we're forced to approach, we're never forced to approach "now".
Even if we're forced to approach, we're never forced to approach "now".
lol, same with rob... assuming he will always retreat is going to get you in a lot of trouble... good players won't let you pressure like that, since the only thing that really "ranges" us is PKF, and if you're using it to advance, easily punishable...
approaching any character mindlessly is death, but staying away from rob is very hard (unless you're snake, falco or either of the links)
approaching any character mindlessly is death, but staying away from rob is very hard (unless you're snake, falco or either of the links)
cloudenvy112
Smash Apprentice
I say the match-up is probably anywhere from 55:45-60:40 range. ROB's recovery and powerful attacks can smash Lucas out at low percentages yet Lucas's quick aerials can turn the match around. I personally do not like ROB or facing ROBs in general yet I have fought them enough to know their tricks.
Quick Tips: Lucas's stick will become useful in deflecting ROB's laser and top. The Nair can combo ROB for quick damage and Dthrow into a Utilt or Uair will keep ROB pressured. A sweetspotted Dair can quickly spike ROB. Consistently Dairs will leave ROB defenseless to recover.
General MU:
Generally, the matchup is in ROB's favor. Lucas can be punished by ROB but by the same token, ROB can be punished by Lucas. ROB has quick, powerful attacks that can KO Lucas at relatively low percentages. Trading damage will give ROB the victory. Making good use of Lucas's PK attacks will pressure ROB into making noticeable mistakes. ROB's top, side B, recovery, and heavyweight will become an issue.
Punishment:
A lot of Lucas's attacks have significant lag. Therefore, too many laggy attacks is not the way to go when fighting ROB. If you are trying to punish ROB, it is best to do it while he is recovering. Spiking him during recovery will make it harder and harder for him to recover. Also, if you find that ROB spams his laser and top, make an effort to time your stick to knock those right back at him. If ROB misses the launch of his top, he will probably try to pick it back up, leaving time for you to give him some SH aerials. I found that when ROB is at high percentages, a few Dtilts into a Fsmash or Ftilt will KO ROB instantly.
Stages:
In Lucas's favor:
Pokémon Stadium 1
Battlefield
Smashville
Norfair
possibly Delfino Plaza and Luigi's Mansion
Quick Tips: Lucas's stick will become useful in deflecting ROB's laser and top. The Nair can combo ROB for quick damage and Dthrow into a Utilt or Uair will keep ROB pressured. A sweetspotted Dair can quickly spike ROB. Consistently Dairs will leave ROB defenseless to recover.
General MU:
Generally, the matchup is in ROB's favor. Lucas can be punished by ROB but by the same token, ROB can be punished by Lucas. ROB has quick, powerful attacks that can KO Lucas at relatively low percentages. Trading damage will give ROB the victory. Making good use of Lucas's PK attacks will pressure ROB into making noticeable mistakes. ROB's top, side B, recovery, and heavyweight will become an issue.
Punishment:
A lot of Lucas's attacks have significant lag. Therefore, too many laggy attacks is not the way to go when fighting ROB. If you are trying to punish ROB, it is best to do it while he is recovering. Spiking him during recovery will make it harder and harder for him to recover. Also, if you find that ROB spams his laser and top, make an effort to time your stick to knock those right back at him. If ROB misses the launch of his top, he will probably try to pick it back up, leaving time for you to give him some SH aerials. I found that when ROB is at high percentages, a few Dtilts into a Fsmash or Ftilt will KO ROB instantly.
Stages:
In Lucas's favor:
Pokémon Stadium 1
Battlefield
Smashville
Norfair
possibly Delfino Plaza and Luigi's Mansion
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
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Uhh... right now we're just discussing the General MU and we usually base punishment off of frame data (usually intepreted by Galeon)
cloudenvy112
Smash Apprentice
Sorry, I've no experience with frame data so I'm only posting what I know about the match-up in general. That's from my speculation on how the match-up works.
Rob doesn't force lucas to approach him.Rob is NOT predictable when recovering....unless this rob is a ******. And for you Lucas players I would advise not coming off stage to gimp us or anything of the sort.
This depends...on the situation if they're recovering low try this...if not then don't.
About grabing our gyro and camping it doesn't really work....ask Rocket.
No, lucas doesn't outcamp rob, but he makes him approach. It's sort of like snake using crouch to dodge falco's lasers. It's not really camping, but he has to appraoch.
No at close range rob has tilt range...also PKF is shield grab able.
If a lucas uses PKF that close he's a dumb***
Vury true.
Stingers is right rob does better at close up...than lucas.
Im gonna add to this later i gotta go im at school when i did this.
Rob doesn't do better than lucas at close range. Better range doesn't give the upper hand at close range. Not to mention at close range lucas has options to get rob above him and rack some damage.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Yea...but in most situations lucas is the approacher...i mean yea you can wait across the stage for projectiles to be shot @ you, but eventually you'll be approaching.
I'd rather wait than approach.Yea...but in most situations lucas is the approacher...i mean yea you can wait across the stage for projectiles to be shot @ you, but eventually you'll be approaching.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Yea....I know understand why. >.>
lol then you've completely lost the match... I can angle my laser so that if you reflect it, it won't hit me, and if you're going for the absorb, it becomes a) I hit you with my top or b) I heal you ~8 dmg... that's _if_ you time the absorb correctly... either way, you lose... there's no way to win in there
you're just GIVING the rob player the game by not approaching
you're just GIVING the rob player the game by not approaching
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol lucas jab has terrible range. i guess it beats rob uh when you're literally right next to each other. gj getting that close
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Ehhh....not necessarily..they could just use f-smash, shield, and side step.
That is atleast until they decide to approach, but they'll (by which I mean you lucas player) mess up before..well.....before we mess up camping. > : )
That is atleast until they decide to approach, but they'll (by which I mean you lucas player) mess up before..well.....before we mess up camping. > : )
stingers
Smash Obsessed
im not rly afraid of fsmash either....mainly cuz robs ftilt ouranges it by a mile...i mean rob ***** at keeping ppl out and any shad crap lucas can do rob can straight out beat.
i just dont see it :/
i just dont see it :/
6Mizu
Smash Champion
yea...it's not that bad.
no one argue the f-smash opinions...because we promise we can back it up.
no one argue the f-smash opinions...because we promise we can back it up.
I guess you don't know that lucas can cancel magnet lag with a jump.
It's range is ok. It comes out in 2 frames though. Ftilt is also really fast and has decent range.