The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[PhoenixAlpha]

Why not JJ? *is upset*

 

[Lord Viper]

Kirby is such a versatile character. There really is no good counterpick against this guy. Probably Brinstar. He can shark on this stage, but the lava can prevent it, and it's just a good stage for us in general. Plus the small blastzones make it so easy to kill him here. If he bans it, which he most likely will, then just pick whatever you're comfortable with...Just avoid Delfino, and JJ. Maybe Norfair as a counterpick?

Ban Rainbow Cruise

Stage Strike Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise/PS1

☆ Lucas does better on Delfino Plaza than Kirby does. =P ☆

☆ Lucas best counter picks would be Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Battlefield. Do not pick the stages you said and to add Frigate Orpheon. ☆

Why not JJ? *is upset*

☆ Inhale to the water current FTW!!! ☆

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

☆ Lucas best counter picks would be Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Battlefield. Do not pick the stages you said and to add Frigate Orpheon. ☆

Sucks that these 2 are banned at pretty much ALL tourneys around here and at many tourneys elsewhere (curse you people that cant see giant flame walls coming at your face and complain when you die to them (at like 150+%)!!)

I can understand why Luigi's mansion is banned (some really stupid **** can happen there) but theres like no reason norfair should be banned....pisses me off >=O

/rant

 

[ZMan]

saying jj or norfair or picto should be banned are just some straight up inui johns.

but i think brinstar is the best choice against kirby. or maybe delfino (demised banned against me last wear at the MAST, so it can't be too good for him)

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

saying jj or norfair or picto should be banned are just some straight up inui johns.

DDAAAAAAANNNNNNGGGGGGGGG.

Yeah, he kinda crapped a cow when I picked JJ against him. XD

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok so to clarify:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat/PS1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
CP: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield

 

[Chuee]

Ok so to clarify:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat/PS1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
CP: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield

Sounds good.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Pikachu MU Discussion starts NOW!

 

[HailCrest]

Pikachu's a ground player with good range on his tilts, but they are not disjointed at all so our tilts should be able to beat his if we space correctly. Does our Fsmash beat his in range?

 

[lil cj]

I think pika's fsmash has a little bit more range than Lucas' fsmash...by just a fraction

 

[~Nasty~]

Pikachu's a ground player with good range on his tilts, but they are not disjointed at all so our tilts should be able to beat his if we space correctly. Does our Fsmash beat his in range?

his fsmash is longer than ours so we lose that. however, in the air, i'm pretty sure that our aerials beat his. I love this MU but unfortunately i don't have enough time to post about it so it'll have to wait till tomorrow possibly. It used to be 50/50 i think.. but i honestly believe it's our slight advantage 55/45.. more to come later

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Pika Can't Approach Yesss

 

[Tokaio]

Nah, it should be dead even. We nullify his projectile, and his thunder... He can't really approach. His movement and his moves just come out faster than ours, so that is the only thing that evens it. Pika's F-smash outranges ours by abit.

 

[~Nasty~]

Nah, it should be dead even. We nullify his projectile, and his thunder... He can't really approach. His movement and his moves just come out faster than ours, so that is the only thing that evens it. Pika's F-smash outranges ours by abit.

You think it's even? idk dude. His attacks in general may be faster but let's break things down.

Advantages:
1. Our Aerials overall have higher priority
2. His kill moves are null and void (Thunder bc we should always expect it and should NEVER miss one opportunity to heal from it and Dsmash bc you can Smash DI upwards out of it).
3. He has a hard time gimping us bc if he comes out over the ledge we can:
a.) spike him with Bair or Dair
b.) zap jump
c.) magnet pull or
d.) a combination of both B and C.
4. His recovery is not that hard to predict if he is using his side B to come back to the stage. We can gimp him out of this or other recoveries by:
a.) Predict where side B will place him and hit him with PK freeze
b.) Predict side B and hit him with PKT1
c.) If he lands on the stage with either side B or Up B we can Usmash him. or
d.) Spike him right before he grabs the ledge
5. We can spam PKF so he can not approach which is very frustrating for him bc he needs to approach. If he doesn't approach all he has is tjolt spam and we can heal that and magnet cancel so we don't get punished.
6. WBPKF is very useful to keep your distance and once he predicts this and tries to approach us a little higher than we can just adjust by FHing a WBPKF rather than SHing it.
7. With all our PKF spam, jabs, and Nairs, our Fsmash will not should not be decayed so we'll be able to kill him earlier.

Disadvantages:
1. QAC (quick attack cancel) is his best approach and he can mind game the f*** out of you.
2. His attacks are quicker but if we keep our distance this should not pose a problem (does our jab beat his? if so, then anytime he's in close to us can't we just jab or maybe Nair or even Nair > jab and then back away again?)
3. His Fsmash has just a tad bit longer range than ours.
4. His Uair can juggle us?

These are some quick thoughts. Any comments/corrections? These are the reasons why i believe we have the advantage in this MU and i don't believe lucas has many MU advantages.. especially in the higher tiers.

 

[HailCrest]

You think it's even? idk dude. His attacks in general may be faster but let's break things down.

Advantages:
1. Our Aerials overall have higher priority
2. His kill moves are null and void (Thunder bc we should always expect it and should NEVER miss one opportunity to heal from it and Dsmash bc you can Smash DI upwards out of it).
3. He has a hard time gimping us bc if he comes out over the ledge we can:
a.) spike him with Bair or Dair
b.) zap jump
c.) magnet pull or
d.) a combination of both B and C.
4. His recovery is not that hard to predict if he is using his side B to come back to the stage. We can gimp him out of this or other recoveries by:
a.) Predict where side B will place him and hit him with PK freeze
b.) Predict side B and hit him with PKT1
c.) If he lands on the stage with either side B or Up B we can Usmash him. or
d.) Spike him right before he grabs the ledge
5. We can spam PKF so he can not approach which is very frustrating for him bc he needs to approach. If he doesn't approach all he has is tjolt spam and we can heal that and magnet cancel so we don't get punished.
6. WBPKF is very useful to keep your distance and once he predicts this and tries to approach us a little higher than we can just adjust by FHing a WBPKF rather than SHing it.
7. With all our PKF spam, jabs, and Nairs, our Fsmash will not should not be decayed so we'll be able to kill him earlier.

Disadvantages:
1. QAC (quick attack cancel) is his best approach and he can mind game the f*** out of you.
2. His attacks are quicker but if we keep our distance this should not pose a problem (does our jab beat his? if so, then anytime he's in close to us can't we just jab or maybe Nair or even Nair > jab and then back away again?)
3. His Fsmash has just a tad bit longer range than ours.
4. His Uair can juggle us?

These are some quick thoughts. Any comments/corrections? These are the reasons why i believe we have the advantage in this MU and i don't believe lucas has many MU advantages.. especially in the higher tiers.

1. And disjointedness. So spacing really is important in this matchup.
2. His Usmash is quick and powerful. Nair OOS may sometimes also be a surprise kill.
3. a) I doubt that because I don't think they would go that far offstage, I'd think Wavebounced Thunder would be a better option for them b) Hell yeah c) Prevents thunder gimping too d) Awesome.
4. His UpB has a humongous sweetspot, and because of that his recovery's pretty hard to gimp. As for Side B, it has a ****load of lag at the end so if pika is aiming for the stage and not the ledge, hello usmash. If he aims for the ledge, hello dsmash. I'd think that d) is rather impractical.
5. PK Fire's hitbox still comes out even if tjolt cancels it. That means if we are able to hit the jolt soon after it comes out of Pika, it'll hit him for 5%
6. Pika may also crawl/taunt to avoid PK Fire (lol on the second one)
7. His Nair comes out in 2 frames. And I'm pretty sure it beats our nair.

Disadvantages:
1. this. However QAC has a limited range and he will get quite a bit of lag once he lands after his followup from QAC (the lag prevented by double jumping will "carry over" to the time he lands next time). So proper spacing is again important. Also watch out for the QAC lock and DI, DI, DI.
2. His attacks are faster but they extend his hurtbox. Spacing!
3. Tad longer range in exchange for 2-3 extra frames of startup.
4. I'm not sure on this point.

Also, DI is @#$% important in this matchup. Not DIing from dsmash will shoot us up vertically and at higher percents the hitstun is long enough for thunder to hit poor Lucas before he pulls out a magnet. DIing from Quick Attack Lock (QAL) is also important because at 70% we're perfect candidates for pika's Jab Lock, and QAL works at percents below that. All his smashes are potential killers and sadly Fsmash is the slowest coming out on the 17th frame but with quite a bit of lag (if pika misjudges the range, Dsmash will hit him). Also one thing to remember is that Fsmash's sweetspot is at pika's cheeks and not the tip, the tip has weaker knockback and damage and can't kill.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Does our D-smash outrange the hitbox on QA?

 

[TheVince]

This match-up is dead even, maybe 51-49 in lucas' favor, but not 55-45...

You think it's even? idk dude. His attacks in general may be faster but let's break things down.

Advantages:
1. Our Aerials overall have higher priority
2. His kill moves are null and void (Thunder bc we should always expect it and should NEVER miss one opportunity to heal from it and Dsmash bc you can Smash DI upwards out of it).
3. He has a hard time gimping us bc if he comes out over the ledge we can:
a.) spike him with Bair or Dair
b.) zap jump
c.) magnet pull or
d.) a combination of both B and C.
4. His recovery is not that hard to predict if he is using his side B to come back to the stage. We can gimp him out of this or other recoveries by:
a.) Predict where side B will place him and hit him with PK freeze
b.) Predict side B and hit him with PKT1
c.) If he lands on the stage with either side B or Up B we can Usmash him. or
d.) Spike him right before he grabs the ledge
5. We can spam PKF so he can not approach which is very frustrating for him bc he needs to approach. If he doesn't approach all he has is tjolt spam and we can heal that and magnet cancel so we don't get punished.
6. WBPKF is very useful to keep your distance and once he predicts this and tries to approach us a little higher than we can just adjust by FHing a WBPKF rather than SHing it.
7. With all our PKF spam, jabs, and Nairs, our Fsmash will not should not be decayed so we'll be able to kill him earlier.

Disadvantages:
1. QAC (quick attack cancel) is his best approach and he can mind game the f*** out of you.
2. His attacks are quicker but if we keep our distance this should not pose a problem (does our jab beat his? if so, then anytime he's in close to us can't we just jab or maybe Nair or even Nair > jab and then back away again?)
3. His Fsmash has just a tad bit longer range than ours.
4. His Uair can juggle us?

These are some quick thoughts. Any comments/corrections? These are the reasons why i believe we have the advantage in this MU and i don't believe lucas has many MU advantages.. especially in the higher tiers.

1. Pika's fair and dair have greater priority, although I'd assume Lucas' aerials have more range over all. Sure, this might be an advantage, but Pikas honestly aren't going to try and challenge you in the air. If you are trying to come at us with an aerial, we can just thunder or roll away.. its kind of obviously if you jump at us what you are going to do.

2. Just because you have a magnet doesn't mean you are always going to use against every single thunder we use. You can never assume this. Sure, you might to absorb a few, but I guarantee this won't stop us from using thunder altogether.

Also, thunder and dsmash aren't our only kill moves BY FAR. QAC -> nair is a favorite of most pikas. Usmash is a good vertical killer, fmash smash has more range than your fmash, but it only really kills if it sweetspots (sweetspot is at the cheeks).

3. Pika's main source of gimping is using thunder, if you are going to try and just spam magnet to recover, we aren't going to thunder. Once again, nair is really nice for killing and gimping in the air, expect it to be used. It is relatively easy to predict where your pkt2 recovery will land (if you aren't aiming for the edge). I secondary Ness, so I know the gimpability of pkt2 recovery. Just aim for the edge and hope we don't grab it first.

4. I lol'd. Honestly, anyone that thinks they can gimp a good pika my as well start thinking otherwise. Pika has disputably one of the best recoveries, having so many options. Sure, Lucas obviously has a little bit of an upperhand having a lot of projectiles, but pika can avoid projectiles easily being a small target. Regarding the bit about recovering to the stage, no good pika is going to skull bash and land on the stand, it's easy to punish. Your best bet for gimping is pk freeze I guess. It seems... big. Other than that, pkt is horribly slow..

5. It is kind of easy to avoid pkf (jump lol), but it probably your best bet. If you can space well with this, I guess use it. I honestly haven't played any good lucases.

6. I have no idea what that is lol but I'd assume it is useful..

7. I guess, hypothetically. Don't rely to much on your fmash. Pika's fsmash, and probably his dlit outrange it.

1. Yes

2. Pikas don't really jab alot.. but pika's jab does have some range. Go for it if you want though.

3. Yes

4. Uair isn't really a major juggling tool... Mostly nair. Expect to get juggled a bit though. It isn't really pika's strongest point imo.

 

[Galeon]

are you guys fighting pikachus that use thunder randomly when ur in the air?

cause if i get usmashed/dsmashed/utilt'ed, i havent been able to magnet fast enough to not get hit by thunder assuming i didnt di away.

has anyone confirmed if u can shake out of stun fast enough to magnet before thunder can hit u?

 

[Tyr_03]

Pika has a slight advantage. He just has better tools than us.

 

[AfroTwist ShadowPie]

Lucas vs. Link on AiB http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=118983 gogogo
You know you want us

 

[ZMan]

i think we can shake hitstun from usmash > thunder. i perfer not to magnet cause i always **** it up somehow. i just di away.

 

[Chuee]

He just has better tools than us.

Explain moar.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We have sucky tools, therefore, his tools are better

 

[Chuee]

We have sucky tools, therefore, his tools are better

Not what I meant.
I meant what tools of his are better than ours?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ranged F-smash, faster aerials, good tilts and better recovery... the list goes on, but it's basically the general traits of high-tiers. But! this is not the way I want the MU discussion to go because it is discussing these tools. SO, starting now, if you discuss the ratio before we talk about the MU, it will be completely ignored untill after we're talking about the "tools"

 

[~Nasty~]

It is relatively easy to predict where your pkt2 recovery will land (if you aren't aiming for the edge). I secondary Ness, so I know the gimpability of pkt2 recovery. Just aim for the edge and hope we don't grab it first.

Lucas's recovery is greater than Ness's but i see what you're saying. If we shoot to land on the stage we would be aiming for right above it so that when we land there is no lag and we can spot dodge right away.

5. It is kind of easy to avoid pkf (jump lol), but it probably your best bet. If you can space well with this, I guess use it. I honestly haven't played any good lucases.

Here inlies the problem... you haven't faced any good lucases. And at the same time, i haven't faced any great pikas. lol. just the average ones.

6. I have no idea what that is lol but I'd assume it is useful..

It means Wave bouce PK fire... basically it's when you see a lucas shoot a PKF and he moves backwards from where he was originally bc he is slightly off the ground. allows for safe spacing.

4. Uair isn't really a major juggling tool... Mostly nair. Expect to get juggled a bit though. It isn't really pika's strongest point imo.

I see.. yeah i put a question mark bc i wasn't sure if it was Uair that juggled or what. But thanks for correcting that.. i suppose Pika's nair is pretty good for gimping, especially if we aren't careful off the stage. Thanks for your input

 

[HailCrest]

I've had a pikachu hit me with the circle part of his fsmash before, it's like Ness' fsmash when you don't tip it; it doesn't kill until really high percents.

As Galeon said, it would be preferable to DI away instead of shaking off hitstun because often it's too long for Lucas to pull out a magnet before the thunder strikes. When I'm at like 100%, I'd rather live to higher percents than be ambitious and try to heal like 30% from thunder and risk dying. Murphy's law and whatnot.

Nair starts killing while fresh at 140%-ish from the center of FD.

 

[orange/xd]

Yeah, Pika's Fsmash can kill pretty late actually

 

[Galeon]

oh and pikachu falls out of nair for some reason. like if he does something laggy and u try to punish with nair, he'll just plop out and be able to hit u back. doesnt change the matchup since we can punish with better things, just a little fun fact.

and for those who b-stick (cant double stick di), a trick to get out of the dsmash is to hold up before ur hit. dont even bother smash di'ing over and over with the control stick, di'ing up and holding it'll get u out. just hope he doesnt usmash instead..

as for the punish stuff, i dont have alot of pikachu practice to know all the frame stuff but i know he dies if we block his dsmash. free fsmash once it pushes u out, maybe even worse but fsmash is super free. as far as i know, fsmash doesnt have a bunch of ending lag. i remember blocking it and then sidestepped my dash grab. i think he even sidestepped a lazy shieldgrab after i blocked his fsmash. i think we can fsmash his usmash on block.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, so we should probably do punishment now:

Smashes:
Tilts:
Aerials:

The usual (I guess)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So far we have

D-smash: OoS F-smash
F-smash: Nothing

Aerials: Out Range / Space against them
N-air and D-air - Nothing really
F-air: OoS Jab or Tilts, Out of hit: Try to jump out

Specials:
---Down B: PSI Magnet
---Neutal B: PSI Magnet
---Up B: N-air
---Side B: D-smash?

Edited!

 

[Galeon]

Nair beats out quick attack clean everytime. Good Pikachus will use QA approaches pretty sparingly in general though so looking for it might be tough.

As for the aerials, i know dair has a shieldgrabbable splash but it's kind of hard to eyeball since they can do rising sh dairs to avoid the splash and make it a decent poke. Nair has a laggy bounce if he doesnt autocancel it but I rarely see it used like that. I usually see them do rising fh nairs or deep sh autocancelled sh nairs and punishing those can be tough.

As for the aerial that's gonna hit your shield probably the most often, fair. It's like our nair in alot of ways. It has the same effect as ours when its fastfalled in that it pops us up and has low enough ending lag on hit that they can follow up with a grab, tilt or smash. You can try jumping out if you get hit and react fast enough but there's a chance you lose your jump if you're off by a little. His fair also seems to have a liiiiittle less lag than our nair when fastfalled so we get nothing big to punish on block as far as i know, tilts. So essentially, they gotta **** up with their aerials or guess wrong to get hit by something big, like ours.

 

[orange/xd]

sdi out of dsmash, obviously

Fsmash isn't too fast, so you might be able to predict it

 

[prOAPC]

can someone please which attacks can be shield grabbed for every character?

 

[Galeon]

can someone please which attacks can be shield grabbed for every character?

we started that a while ago but cant find pika frame data so its not that easy this time.

 

[prOAPC]

sorry, my mistake, i didn't read the first post
everytime you can land an oos fsmash, can you land a grab?

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Yeah, isn't our shield grab faster than our Fsmash?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I found the link to the frame data, Galeon here's the

 

[Galeon]

Yeah, isn't our shield grab faster than our Fsmash?

Yup, by 1 frame.


Thanks for the frames, RPSI. Let's see.. If I'm reading this right (shield drop time already counted, otherwise pikachu's dtilt is the best move in the game O_o), then we get:

Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?


Jabs/tilts: No possible punish unless you predict the followup. Ftilt is the exception in that we can fsmash out of shield with perfect timing. Dair is the suggested punishment.
D-smash: Dsmash. Possibly Usmash if you get pushed out early enough.
F-smash: Dsmash. This one surprised me. I thought Fsmash was his least laggy smash attack but if you don't get pushed back too far after blocking it, you can destroy him.
Dash Attack: Usmash. This was also surprising.
U-smash: Dsmash

Aerials: Out Range / Space against them
N-air: Nothing really unless fastfalled. If he does fastfall it, you get Fsmash
D-air: Nothing really unless fastfalled. If he does fastfall it, you get Dsmash
F-air: OoS Jab or Tilts, Out of hit: Try to jump out. If he fastfalls on block, you get free tilts.

Specials:
---Down B: PSI Magnet
---Neutal B: PSI Magnet
---Up B: N-air
---Side B: Usmash if you manage to block it. Hitting him out of it when he's recovering/sweetspotting is the issue.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, so I think we got the punishment section done pretty well. Unless someone can test some stuff with U-smash, we can go on to stage discussion.