The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Galeon]

edited in usmash. I ban Halberd. BF's supposed to be his worst neutral, isnt it? Though realistically, FD or Smashville might be best since there are no platforms to help him approach or land safely.

 

[Tokaio]

FD is his best neutral. I think BF is his worst iirc. Yeah, I'd ban Halberd too. Low ceiling is bad for us. I don't really know what to counterpick. Maybe JJ?

 

[MTGod]

If Pika's a ground player, then surely stages with only small lengths of ground will be effective against him??? Norfair, for example??? With all the moving lava as well, it'll almost force Pika to be in the air a lot...

*slinks back into shadows*

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So far I have:

Strike: The usuals (b/c all others are good for us against him)
Ban: Halberd
CP: It seems like Brinstar, Norfair and Japes because we're good on them and he doesn't do that well on them...

If anybody doesn't have anything better, this will be the list...

 

[orange/xd]

that sounds good rocket

 

[Tokaio]

Yup, sounds good. Although, I believe Pika does well on Norfair. I dunno.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, I'll take Norfair of the list. Anyone else?

 

[ZMan]

one of the resident pikapoo main's here (isaccard aka neilan) either cps frigate, rainbow, or delfino against me. personally i like those stages so i don't mind but im not sure if that's a trend among pikajew users. just something to be a bit wary about i guess.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'll put that on the OP as a quote when I write up the summary (hopefully tomorrow)
I used too many quotes, but you guys basically wrote the MU guide for me ^^

 

[rPSIvysaur]

ROB Discussion starts tweer!

So anyway, I know this MU too well, so before I put my wall of text up, I want to see what you guys say about the MU.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

ROB Discussion starts tweer!

So anyway, I know this MU too well, so before I put my wall of text up, I want to see what you guys say about the MU.

I find taking the gyro to be really nice for getting rid of his long range pressure.
Then it all comes down to the magnet.

I find that once I get past ROB's camping and inside his range, it isn't all that hard to rack up damage.

/twocents, maybe less

 

[Tokaio]

With ROB you usually have to approach. He'll end up lasering you and throwing gyros everywhere. Although, chances are he won't use lasers in obvious situations. He'll usually use it when you're offstage. Just keep the pressure on...but make sure you still remember to approach smart. His recovery is sick, but it's so predictable. You can easily get a spike. If you don't get it, just keep the pressure on, and he'll eventually run out of fuel.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'll try to get some videos of me and my friends doing friendlies with ROB... but I don't have any video capture software so could would anyone be willing to convert it to a video with theirs if I give you the .bin? (Also we usually play BBrawl, but the MU is played exactly the same)

 

[prOAPC]

tallman should add some information, he mains both characters

 

[GwJ]

With ROB you usually have to approach. He'll end up lasering you and throwing gyros everywhere. Although, chances are he won't use lasers in obvious situations. He'll usually use it when you're offstage. Just keep the pressure on...but make sure you still remember to approach smart. His recovery is sick, but it's so predictable. You can easily get a spike. If you don't get it, just keep the pressure on, and he'll eventually run out of fuel.

Eh...Yes and no. While ROB's recovery is predictable, so is Lucas' spike. Usually the opponent that reads and predicts the best will win the offstage battle when ROB is recovering since both are predictable.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

A smart ROB will know how to recover and if he gets spiked, he'll still recover. If you really want to make him run out of fuel play G&W, but even smart ROB's don't get gimped by him too often. Making him run out of fuel is silly, and you'll take a few f-airs to the face if you do.

I'll probably Wall of Text tomorrow about the MU, but I'm too lazy right now

 

[MTGod]

I don't know if this is any help, but can you magnet ROB's fsmash (y'know, the short laser burst thing)???

Also, ROB recovery from afar should be easily dealt with by PKT I think... He doesn't move too quickly in the air aside from the Bairs (I think it's the same speed as PKT?? Maybe a little bit faster...), so dodging a PKT might give them a little bit of grief... If it's a close up recovery, even if it doesn't kill all the time it's probably still worth going for a spike if safe, since it's still damage being racked up (and still does kill his fuel, so if you string together a spike with another move that'll quickly put him offstage again he may not be able to recover as well)...

 

[orange/xd]

i don't think we can magnet fsmash, but i'm not very good with magnet stuff.

>_____>


<____<



>____<

 

[GwJ]

PKT is a bad edgeguarding move against ROB. ROB's aerials cancel out PKT, so all you do is waste time.

 

[buenob]

you can't absorb our fsmash, unfortunately... PKT is a great damage racker against rob, but it's risky... only robs fair and uair can be used reliably to negate it, so as always we have that big blind spot below us... but if you miss, it's a free hit

after our up-b, we move remarkably faster, so watch out for that...

i love it when people take my top... it limits your options way more than it limits mine... sure I can't glide-toss, but your fsmash is a beast at dealing with that

if lucas is either IN us (very short range) or at max pkFire range, he's in control... anywhere else, rob is...

 

[Galeon]

Even if Rob is recovering high and far away, doing a shameless pkt probably isnt advised as you can still get lasered for free.

 

[MTGod]

ROB's aerials cancel out PKT

Oh snap!!! Didn't realise that In that case, just ignore everything I said xD

@Galeon: Sounds logical

What about our recovery game though??? It seems like Lucas is pretty screwed as soon as we're not on land anymore, given ROB's controllable UpB that'll place him where he wants for melee attacks, and gyro/laser ranged attacks (as mentioned before)...

Playing above ROB - if our Dsmash has better range/priority than ROB's Uair/smash (I doubt the latter?) then we'd win in that scenario, which in turn would then make ROB's spotdodge->Dsmash much less worthwhile for them to use unless we were on kill % for that move... Of course if the gyro was out and held he could follow up that dsmash with an upwards throw of the gyro to either bait out an airdodge or something and then follow up with something more sinister

Again, ignore me if I'm spouting crap ^^

 

[GwJ]

Note how slow Dsmash takes to start up. If we just predict and look at the screen, that shouldn't happen very often.

 

[ZMan]

his uair is faster than our (lucas's) dsmash (i think, haven't seen the frame data yet) but i know dsmash beats out his usmash.

as for gyro just toss the **** upwards

and for a recovering lucas, zap jump and magnetpull are good ideas.

i like nair > utilt chains in this mu.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok guys it's time for the wall of text... I'll probably update it later...

Ok, so here's the deal:

ROB's N-air has a huge disjoint and can be spaced well. He tries this, you're going to want to PK Fire his landing. However you have to time it well otherwise he'll PS it. Retreating F-air is also pain to get around, it has a good disjoint, but a well spaced f-air should do the trick, or like always PK Fire his landing.
Once we get inside, we have limited options. We're usually going to n-airing inside. When you land your n-air behind him (don't land in front of him) always jab, otherwise you'll eat a d-smash. As soon as your jab clashes with D-smash get out of there and put him in range of PK Fire.
D-air is pretty legit because his u-smash has very limited range, but always make sure you space it correctly or you'll get grabbed (duh)
Knowing your PK Fire range is key in this MU because ROB forces approaches if you guy just a little bit too far out of range, and he has really good defense close up.
Once you're out of PK Fire range, this is when you're going to want to either
A) just stand there and wait for his projectiles
or B) try to get back to PK Fire range
Once you're out of range, he'll probably have his Gyro charged up for quick access. If he shoots his gyro don't try to pick it up immediately, if you can shield it. If you can't don't pick it up, but f-smash it to make it yours once it's yours pick it up and throw it upwards or wait for him to approach you or try to get the gyro back. At that point you can usually expect a laser or f-tilt. If he's far away, try to look for the animation of him starting to fire his lasers, or at least try to predict it and put your magnet up. If he comes and f-tilts, get behind the gyro and PK Fire to punish him. NEVER LET ROB PICK UP HIS OWN GYRO . He'll glide toss combo the crap out of you. He'll pretty much either get a free f-smash or grab. You might want to try SHAD or F-smash to reflect the gyro.

If you try to PK Fire when you're out of PK Fire range, you'll eat a lazer, or possibly a gyro. Off stage we have very limited options against him. He might be able to get an F-air off against us, but it shouldn't be able to gimp us unless it kills us off the sides. He can possibly get a B-air on us if we PKT2 back to the stage, but we it's slow and we can predict it.

ROB's F-tilt has hunormous range, don't challenge it with any of your moves. Just try to stay out of his F-tilt range and PK Fire. When he's charging his gyro he usually will be retreating, before you try to PK Fire read the direction he is going, he can't change directions while charging without airdodging first so run up and PK Fire. Oh yeah, and never do SH Wavebounced PK Fire in this MU, otherwise, laser.

IMO 40:60
He beats us solidly, but not unwinnable, as long as he knows how to space against PK Fire.

I'm probably going to do friendlies tomorrow with 6Mizu so I'll try to get some .bins to upload (can any of you record it with your comp?), but again we'll be playing BBrawl (but it's exactly the same physics and Lucas and ROB weren't changed too much. Lucas doesn't have d-tilt lock, but you guys know when to use that. You guys really shouldn't see much of a difference and the MU will be played near exactly the same). I'll also try to see what the d-throw to u-tilt precent is while we do friendlies.

 

[Chuee]

Absorb lasers. If a gyro is out, grab it and start camping with PKT and Magnet. When he's offstage use PKT for a good amount of damage. Avoid close combat, he has better range than us. SDI out of Dsmashes.
55-45 or 60-40 Rob's advantage.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

F-smash gyro before picking it up. Or be really, really good at the range of picking things up. If it's not yours your going to get lazered or f-tilted when you pick it up.

Don't camp with PKT, you'd have to be a r-tard to do that because you can't MAGNET when you're doing PKT. And yes, DI out of Dsmashes to avoid the knockback and you'll be living longer.

 

[Chuee]

F-smash gyro before picking it up. Or be really, really good at the range of picking things up. If it's not yours your going to get lazered or f-tilted when you pick it up.

Don't camp with PKT, you'd have to be a r-tard to do that because you can't MAGNET when you're doing PKT. And yes, DI out of Dsmashes to avoid the knockback and you'll be living longer.

oops meant PKF

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Oh, well definitely, that's what the MU is. Also throw it up before you start to camp, because you're going to need your GTFO moves when trying to camp him.

 

[buenob]

rocket psience and chu are assuming the rob player is bad, as in last years rob... lucas has _way_ more options than rob close range... even at perfect PKF range its even (because we can just power-shield, or trade laser with the pkf) the only chance lucas has are his awesome comboz and mindgame combos

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I have a question? How often do you play the MU? (not to be insulting, I just want to know. I reread my post and it comes across as rude, sorry)

Lucas has N-air to U-tilt at low percents but you can just d-smash OoS on us, so we can only use jab which clanks. We can continue doing our clank war but that's it. You have to be a ****** and not DI our d-air to get caught in all the d-air combos. F-air can be shield grabed too easily, U-air has little range, and B-air doesn't combo unless you're in the air and get sweetspotted. Lucas has f-tilt close range, but that doesn't combo into anything except a physical yelling out loud "GTFO". Obviously I know that this isn't an even MU and you're assuming that since I'm talking about this MU with knowledge that I know it as even, which I don't. I know ROB's options quite well, I play this MU weekly. ROB's options up-close have more range and are quick. (4 frame d-smash). And we can't even pressure him with grabs because Lucas has quite possibly the worst grab in the game. Now, it maybe true that we beat him out up close, but we also have trouble approaching him, ROB has an answer to nearly all our approaches. ROB wins more than just in a Rock-Paper-Scissors situation, but also stops Lucas from approaching and can outcamp. So I'm sorry if you have no idea what the MU is and end up getting N-air'd to F-smashed because you had no idea that Lucas could do that.

 

[buenob]

i also play this matchup fairly regularly... used to be weekly, now it's maybe 2x a month, with two very different styles (ie. one agro/spacing, one excessive camping), and they're both fairly good... (one guys plays against holy very regularly, but I only get to play him when we travel to the same tourneys)

lucas' ftilt out-spaces our jab, which is the only sub-4frame move, and I believe unless is power-shielded, has frame advantage from hitstun... lucas' down-tilt shield pokes our gigantic body, and you know what happens from there...

nair shield pokes + combos into utilt, which is what should be done since rob has the giant weak area below him (unless you could ko)

taking the top temporarily is fantastic, but it's best to just use it to pressure, make us shield, and continue with your disjoint aerials // nair if you're close enough... if you keep it, you lose so many options

i'm assuming this is at least 60-40 for ROB... all this said, I beat the lucas players pretty regularly... it's hard for you, i'm just trying to point out the few situations where it's in your favour...

rob has nothing disjoint and grounded other than fsmash, spamming hitboxes in us is pretty easy once you get in... any of our "gtfo" moves is punishable on shield... do it

edited for emphasis

 

[HailCrest]

Aren't ROB's bair and dair disjointed? At least I thought they were.

 

[GwJ]

Remember that if you want to DI the Dsmash, be ready to react immediately, because ROBs will probably Dsmash again since most character can't do crap when they DI out the Dsmash.

 

[orange/xd]

He's almost impossible to PKT gimp. :/

 

[MTGod]

EDIT: Never mind ^^ Silly comment to make xD

 

[Tyr_03]

ROB is like even with us or something. Just don't get gimped. That's about the only really bad thing he can do to us. He's super easy to shieldpoke and combo.

Edgeguard him with Bair and Uair. You won't kill him with a spike unless you spike him like 6 times with Bair/Dair but it can be done if they don't space well. PKT doesn't work to edgeguard unless they're being dumb.

Once you get inside his range you can deal a ton of damage. It's kind of like fighting Dedede only he can't chaingrab you across the stage for like a million percent. Oh and ROB can't do **** about being juggled.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

He really can't gimp us too well as long as we don't recover too close to the stage actually. The problem with facing him is getting close to him, we may be able to wreck him up close, but we can't get up close w/o getting d-tilted or f-tilted. D-tilt can lead into combos too and comes out in 4 frames, it's really a b**** to deal with.

ROB won't get gimped, he can cancel his Up-B into a f-air, n-air or u-air when he's recovering and still make it back so it's not going to happen.

Lucas isn't the best juggler though, but if you go for the u-air go for diagnally behind and below him.

 

[stingers]

rob seriously isnt' bad close range

jab is 4 frames, dtilt is 3 frames

both are good

dsmash is only 4 frames as well if you're curious

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, I know. There is no way that this MU is even, ROB solidly beats Lucas (I was also including the 1 crouching frame when you use d-tilt)