The Living Legend - Solid Snake in Brawl+

[GHNeko]

I'd love for Snake's landmines to do less damage to him, or be discriminatory to only opponents like Usmash and Nikita.

Box Taunt speed up for loledgeguarding.

Speed up Nikita Animations by a really noticable amount.

More favorable angle for Fthrow.

V:

 

[goodoldganon]

Box Taunt speed up for loledgeguarding.

\

I've actually meant to see if we could use PSA to actually give Snake 3 taunts.

 

[GHNeko]

Or we can give the 3 boxes different stats ie bkb/kbg/angle/%s/hitbox size.


...IF WE CAN FIND THE DATA ON THE PROP.

 

[5ive]

LOL DO IT FGT

Spoiler

caps

 

[PaintedGhost]

But Snake DOES have 3 different taunts. It's the way he pulls the box up and how fast he does it.

 

[Plum]

I like where Neko was going with nerfing tilts. Nerf the overall utility of the moves, not the range.
Not so safe on shield so more people can actually grab a shielded tilt (doesn't matter to me though now that I practically main DDD over G&W and Wario... I grab whatever the hell I want :V)

Utilt doesn't need to be a potent combo starter... It would be fine if it was just more of a poke/kill move. It is more of an all purpose move now being able to poke, combo, rack damage, and kill. Less favorable angle to stop it from linking into itself and other moves like Uair or Nair.

Ftilt (first hit) doesn't need to be ****** shields, and its damage could probably be toned down because its more importantly an EXCELLENT move for starting tech chasing. The damage from Ftilt itself isn't as important as damage he gets from successful tech reads.

Oh and hopefully somebody could find the prop data for grenades. 13% for an amazing projectile that closes off areas of the stage, forces you into other traps, forces you to approach, and gives him a **** good defensive game is a bit crazy. 10% or maybe even lower if people want to go a bit more drastic seems like a fair amount. Right now they rack up damage a bit too well (like what is going to happen with Wario... nerfing the damage on some of his more absurd moves).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Okay, now what would you give Snake in exchange for those nerfs? I think that's the point that GoG was getting at <_<

 

[Plum]

Okay, now what would you give Snake in exchange for those nerfs? I think that's the point that GoG was getting at <_<

It's hard considering Snake's moveset. He already has some amazing offensive aerials, and buffing their defensive options would just seem out of character (his Brawl character that is...).
Nikita could be more useful if it wasn't so **** slow when pulling it out or canceling it, but you still leave yourself as a sitting duck.
Dsmash could definitely deserve a speedup so he can plant it more often throughout a stock. Right now he can only really use it right after a kill or when an opponent is sent way far off stage.
Fsmash could be speed up, but in terms of the move itself it is already useful enough. I've seen some crazy traps resulting in an Fsmash... Like Dthrowing the opponent a roll's length away from a Dsmash mine, and charging Fsmash in the opposite direction. If they roll forward from Dthrow they hit the mine, so a lot of people's first reaction is to roll behind (to avoid the easy regrab from getting up or a getup attack) where Snake has an Fsmash waiting.

Other then that, I don't see Snake as actually having bad moves. And even the moves that could be improved aren't bad by any means, they are just more situational then his other moves.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I can almost guarantee you that the Box and Grenades' hitbox data are in common3.pac, as that's where the box and grenade texture are.

 

[GHNeko]

SO make them less situational. :V

Also, Dtilt IASA buff and Uthrow damage buff. :V

Nades need NO BUFF WHATSOEVER. They're 2gud as they are.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

PSA cannot open the common3.pac now.

Nades are perfectly fine as Snake can damage himself.

 

[Plum]

SO make them less situational. :V

Also, Dtilt IASA buff and Uthrow damage buff. :V

Nades need NO BUFF WHATSOEVER. They're 2gud as they are.

True

Nades: I said that they probably deserve a damage reduction... their damage output is INSANE. I don't care how many uses the projectile itself has, but when it has all that utility and insane damage? Yeah...

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Now you mention the grenades? >_<

Let's leave them be until we can access the data for the props.

 

[GHNeko]

Nades are fine imo. :V

Just learn to time the item pick or SH Z-Item grab.

 

[omegablackmage]

My biggest problem with all the other non-snake mains who come in here and defend tilt nerfs is they ALL preach the same 'we'll buff other things' but haven't really given a single idea. Cape had two ideas. IASA frames on the F-air (IASA with jump) and the ability to air dodge out of the cypher quicker. The F-air sounded poor but at least cypher sounded good. Problem is it isn't a fair trade.

This topic has devolved into a 'ya-huh' 'nu-uh'' topic and that needs to stop. If people want to rework Snake's tilts than offer up suggestions on how to address the issue because I can say, as Snake secondary, I don't want to listen to this crap anymore.

I'm willing to listen to the other side, but so far I haven't been impressed with the tilt-nerf side. (Not that the 'don't fix what ain't broke' mentality is that much better...) So please, let's not argue the logic on the tilts, or how it isn't broken why fix it. Address the problems with the tilt and your supposed fixes and I guarantee you Snake mains will at least listen.

How can you say that i didn't propose any changes? I suggested making the landing lag on all of his aerials much less so he can combo with them in tighter situations. That and reducing the knockback to make them more combo friendly will help a lot for racking damage up. Also, this might be a bad idea, i haven't really thought about the negative possibilities of this, but more hitstun from the grenade hits? This would allow more projectile combos to be possible right?

 

[Blank Mauser]

My only beef with nades is Snake's ability to make them drop even when their in someone else's hand. Snake hardly has to worry about cooking them at all, and trying to grab his nades just end up being a bad thing. I don't mind him being able to drop them, but at least not when their in your own hands. Maybe making him wait til you throw them at least or something.

Snake can be played a variety of ways, and making his tilts less disjointed won't change that in my opinion. It would just make some things less abusable in certain matchups(There are already characters that can punish Snake's tilts, and for the ones who can't I wouldn't say the matchups are in their favor), but Snake overall can still effectively be played the same.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

How can you say that i didn't propose any changes? I suggested making the landing lag on all of his aerials much less so he can combo with them in tighter situations. That and reducing the knockback to make them more combo friendly will help a lot for racking damage up. Also, this might be a bad idea, i haven't really thought about the negative possibilities of this, but more hitstun from the grenade hits? This would allow more projectile combos to be possible right?

That's not a good payout for him as it limits his ability to KO in the air. The main issue with some of his aerials is the startup time, like fair. Even with less landing lag, it's too slow to chain into anything because of how much startup it has.

The other aerials are fine, but if you must do something, increase the hitstun of uair's soft hitbox.

Also, we don't have access to the hitbox data to the grenade(Or his box for that matter) to do that now.

 

[The Cape]

My biggest problem with all the other non-snake mains who come in here and defend tilt nerfs is they ALL preach the same 'we'll buff other things' but haven't really given a single idea. Cape had two ideas. IASA frames on the F-air (IASA with jump) and the ability to air dodge out of the cypher quicker. The F-air sounded poor but at least cypher sounded good. Problem is it isn't a fair trade.

This topic has devolved into a 'ya-huh' 'nu-uh'' topic and that needs to stop. If people want to rework Snake's tilts than offer up suggestions on how to address the issue because I can say, as Snake secondary, I don't want to listen to this crap anymore.

I'm willing to listen to the other side, but so far I haven't been impressed with the tilt-nerf side. (Not that the 'don't fix what ain't broke' mentality is that much better...) So please, let's not argue the logic on the tilts, or how it isn't broken why fix it. Address the problems with the tilt and your supposed fixes and I guarantee you Snake mains will at least listen.

Just wanted to interject that the fair IASA is for upB and jump. This allows him to get his faster rising upB more consistantly and also give him a bit more mobility on the stage. It allows Snake to move around in the air at a more speedy rate. The IASA on the upB for air dodge also assists his recovery in the avoidance of grabs and spikes in certain situations.

Snake has a very diverse moveset and most, if not all, of his moves are great. Snake should have the ability to control the battlefield for sure and he does, but the tilts make the approach very perilous due to the fact of the range on his tilts. The reduction of the tilts range allows for characters with more reach to reach Snake through these moves, forcing Snake to think more and play out his game in other areas. I have seen it done and it plays quite well.

The fair and AD changes will allow Snake to gain more mobility on the stage and during his recovery which may assist with this more mobile playstyle that would be forced from the tilts range reduction. The current range that they were given during the reduction is still excellent and beats out most moves easily, it just makes it so that Snake's U tilt doesnt beat out moves with the range of Marth's F smash.

Snake is an excellent character with great moves and I really feel that this switch off will allow Snake to be a more thought provoking character to play and to play against. I encourage both sides to try it and see what you think before you condemn the idea.


Add on:
Fair also has a good deal of hitstun and sheild stun and the jump IASA allows Snake to combo it into moves such as uair at lower percents for more damage.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

How is that going to happen when fair is so slow? It doesn't matter how you reduce the landing lag, the startup time is simply too much to be useful other than the occasional finisher.

 

[The Cape]

Its not the landing lag that we are reducing but the aerial lag at the end of the move. This will allow the Snake player to use the upwards momentum from Snake's far to boost themseleves upwards at a faster rate and therefore increase mobility and recoverability.

 

[El Raspa]

I dont understand why the WBR want to change the main strength of Snake, to play him different?

Someone said, "we can improve his aerials", Snake is NOT an aerial character, Why not better make every single Fair with the same speed, knockback and everything else, that is the thing that they want to do with snake

Then what? ther are going to remove MK's tornado and upB???

It isn't the correct way to balance this game IMHO

 

[The Cape]

The point behind this whole thing is that Snake has an excellent moveset but it is being overcentralized by a few moves as they are now due to their extreme versitility. By giving them a bit more range it will force the opponent to think a bit more about using them as the reduced range will leave your opponent closer to you and also leave a few more opportunities for Snake to be outranged and punished for throwing these moves out there.

What it does is force Snake to think more overall and use his entire moveset instead of playing with the same four moves in a safe pattern that works against most of the cast.

His moveset as is is not broken it is just severely lacking in use due to the fact that he has a few moves that are so much better than the others that you have no reason to use the others. Snake's other moves have great uses in other situations but will never be used when you can just walk around throwing grenades and tilting everyone.

That is the WBR;s intent (or at least mine). I do not wish to nerf Snake I wish to bring out more of the versatility of his already great moveset by forcing players to think more while using his best moves.

 

[BRLNK88]

To quote Governor Tarkin:
"This bickering is pointless!"
Snake is fine the way he is. There're other characters far more worthy of such debate.

 

[El Raspa]

Thanks for your input The Cape, If you (WBR) are going to do it plan it very well, Nobody wants a Snake overpowered but also we dont want it to lose his playing style

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

^^This. Go look over Meta Knight and his still present ability to plank or something.

May I see an example of the over-centralizing you are talking about in an actual tournament match?

 

[The Cape]

Eternal Yoshi, we actually have been talking about Metaknight and have a few options in the works. We have also found a way to remove his ability to plank as soon as we get the coding possibilities for it. Please do not use that as an arguement in a snake debate. As for tourney matches with the overcentralized playstyle I actually have some available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqOadGID78

This set shows quite a bit of abuse from snake's F tilt and its range and sheild push back are the primary issues. The rest of the moveset saw far less use as it was unneeded with moves of such power.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Noted. He still lost. Good night.

 

[The Cape]

Well Chu is an excellent player. The arguement was that the overpowered nature of F tilt dictated its use beyond other moves, not that it won matchups for him for free.

By removing some of the range on his tilts it forces the player to use more of Snake's moveset, this opens up new options and forces the opponent to think more against the Snake. Therefore Snake becomes better through the use of his other moves and his F tilt and U tilt become more of a surprise due to their reduced range, but similar power.

His F tilt will still be a strong move, but I dont think it will be as centralizing as it is now.

 

[_Yes!_]

Eternal Yoshi, we actually have been talking about Metaknight and have a few options in the works. We have also found a way to remove his ability to plank as soon as we get the coding possibilities for it. Please do not use that as an arguement in a snake debate. As for tourney matches with the overcentralized playstyle I actually have some available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqOadGID78

This set shows quite a bit of abuse from snake's F tilt and its range and sheild push back are the primary issues. The rest of the moveset saw far less use as it was unneeded with moves of such power.

My god it was 4am and I wasn't thinking at all. Snake isn't even top 5 I don't get why you want to change his metagame. Work on changing olimar and squirtle first. They're overpowered.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Agreed with Yes.

Anyway, C4 detonation is faster, so we should find ways to implement it in far and mid-range combat in tandem with grenades.

 

[Hansel34]

Ok, I'm new to Brawl+.. And i just finished reading the entire thread T.T

WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO NERF SNAKE.

Frick, i just started to play.. and even i can tell he isn't as good now. I get combo easily on. My up tilt is weaker, and i get spiked so easily it isn't even funny. Also tell me how many reliable combo he has over 50%.

Also Down B recovering is harder.. not sure why...

 

[GHNeko]

Down B was buffed. Dtilt was buffed too. And Up B was buffed. AND Fair.

You said it yourself. You're new to Brawl+. SNake doesnt need combos like the roster.

And if you read the thread, you'd see why we would want to do such a thing.

<_<

play moar plus.

 

[BRLNK88]

Ok, I'm new to Brawl+.. And i just finished reading the entire thread T.T

WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO NERF SNAKE.

Frick, i just started to play.. and even i can tell he isn't as good now. I get combo easily on. My up tilt is weaker, and i get spiked so easily it isn't even funny. Also tell me how many reliable combo he has over 50%.

Also Down B recovering is harder.. not sure why...

Snake doesn't need long combos, his projectiles and tilts get the job done.
His recovery is bad I'll give you that, and down-B is harder cuz there's more gravity.

 

[El Raspa]

Snake doesn't need long combos, his projectiles and tilts get the job done.
His recovery is bad I'll give you that, and down-B is harder cuz there's more gravity.

Yes but the Tilts are nerfed, now there is a IASA on Fair and it have a combo potential to be discovered

 

[goodoldganon]

It's still way to slow and easy to see coming to be a reliable combo starter. Sure the possibilities from it are nice but the window to actually combo off of it are small and hitting with it is a whole nother story.

 

[Revven]

At least it allows Snake to somewhat defend himself offstage and Up B immediately after using it. On the plus side, it also makes it a viable meteor so you don't wind-up suiciding when you try to do it or are forced to C4 recovery afterwards.

It has potential and I don't think it should be pushed aside as a 'gimmick'.

 

[omegablackmage]

very glad to see the changes made to the dtilt, dsmash, and fair. They should help snake to see a little more variety to his game.

The changes made to his tilts are exactly what i would have proposed. Up tilt now has a sweet spot and doesn't hit so far in front him, good move on the wbr's part. Ftilt is now a reasonable but still strong tilt.

IMO certainly a huge step in the right direction for snake.

 

[Hansel34]

Down B was buffed. Dtilt was buffed too. And Up B was buffed. AND Fair.

You said it yourself. You're new to Brawl+. SNake doesnt need combos like the roster.

And if you read the thread, you'd see why we would want to do such a thing.

<_<

play moar plus.

Down B is faster.. Thats amazing... T.T

Hmm If DTilt is buffed than thats good.. BUT HOW IS UP B buffed? It doesn't even go as high.. And i get spiked so much it isn't even funny.. Or i manage to air dodge the spike.. then the new gravity screws up my C 4 Recovery. Fair... Do you even play snake? I doubt you can land more than 5 fairs in 1 game.. It is friggren hard. Also, I read the thread, and I'm pretty sure all Snake mains like the way snake is played right now and if you wanna nerf something go nerf Mk.

 

[VietGeek]

You can cancel out of UpB noticeably faster now.

Meaning you can airdodge or attack out of it (or C4 recovery) to defend yourself a lot sooner whereas before you had some hefty dedication lag where you could not change to another action.

I'd like to say that the fair buff itself is not exactly catered to offensive use, but it can be if you play your cards right.

also the fact that you think only snake is nerfed (or rather he's the only character you care for that got nerfed; supported by the claim that we need to nerf MK even though we HAVE nerfed him just as much) tells me how closed off your perspective on this project is.

I can't blame you though, a player will always be bias to his main, no?

 

[goodoldganon]

All the whole patch did for Snake was made him have to player harder and smarter to camp effectively but he really doesn't have a problem doing it. After an hour or two of practice the tilt size becomes second nature again. I now have better stage control with the down-smash too. Grenades are still borderline OP, he has a virtually safe on hit D-tilt, and his recovery is better.

Snake's tilt nerfs suck but if anything he is a better character now, which is not something I think anyone intended.

EDIT: At Falco. F-air for combos is a gimmick but it's hardly a gimmick when used to meteor/recover now.