The lack of l canceling is not a bad thing.

[COMMOFDOOM]

How is it boring?

Because Wavedashing isn't in?

Haha. Man, you are one of the most ignorant people i've seen on the boards.

Now, answer my question. Have you played the game?

Your question is irrelevant. My having played the game doesn't effect what the game is. That's like me asking you if you've been to the moon. You'd of course say "no." Then I'd say "Well then you can't prove it exists."

People HAVE played it. There are VIDEOS of it. We know ENOUGH about the game to make ACCURATE guesses to how much DEPTH it has.

Brawl has no NEW gameplay elements. There are CHARACTER differences but no new GAMEPLAY mechanics. Brawl isn't any EASIER to play then melee. It's just easier to MASTER. This is unfortunate because once you master a game it becomes BORING.

I can argue you with you until the end of time (or until you inevitably quit brawl because you get bored and then never return to the forums in order to save face) and still never to manage to even remove some of your fanboyism. Hyped games suck all the time, get over it. God won't send you to hell if a sequel to your favorite game isn't good.

Different is not better.

 

[Nuvia]

That's like me asking you if you've been to the moon. You'd of course say "no." Then I'd say "Well then you can't prove it exists."

HAHAHA OH WOW

That was the best analogy I've ever seen. And by that I mean you're an idiot.

 

[zeldamaster2006]

L-canceling, as well as wavedashing, was a glitch. It is not fair to have a very powerful normally laggy attack lag you as little as a small hit from a light character who doesn't know how to cancel. This way, it's how it should be.

 

[DRaGZ]

Everyone should shut the **** up. This is going nowhere.

God****it, it's like watching a bunch of gradeschoolers in a playground slap-fighting each other.

 

[COMMOFDOOM]

HAHAHA OH WOW

That was the best analogy I've ever seen. And by that I mean you're an idiot.

Yeah. You're right. The moon is a lie.

 

[Tanzz]

Is it too much to ask to at least give it until March 9th?

 

[Jackal478]

Your question is irrelevant. My having played the game doesn't effect what the game is. That's like me asking you if you've been to the moon. You'd of course say "no." Then I'd say "Well then you can't prove it exists."

People HAVE played it. There are VIDEOS of it. We know ENOUGH about the game to make ACCURATE guesses to how much DEPTH it has.

Brawl has no NEW gameplay elements. There are CHARACTER differences but no new GAMEPLAY mechanics. Brawl isn't any EASIER to play then melee. It's just easier to MASTER. This is unfortunate because once you master a game it becomes BORING.

I can argue you with you until the end of time (or until you inevitably quit brawl because you get bored and then never return to the forums in order to save face) and still never to manage to even remove some of your fanboyism. Hyped games suck all the time, get over it. God won't send you to hell if a sequel to your favorite game isn't good.

Different is not better.

And by Gameplay mechanics you mean what? (Ukemi, Rolling, etc. Right?)

By most of your logic your saying that the Brawl videos are magically telling you that you've seen it all. That there will be no more Adv. Techs.

But, you're wrong. The main thing that gave Melee "depth" was 6 years of enthusiasts trying to find something to make them better. If you don't recall, Melee wasn't meant to be played the way it is.

And how does a game get boring when its mastered? Isn't that your initial goal in any game? To win, to be the best? I could also argue until my last breath, but will I? No. That's wasting time, by the time Brawl comes out i'll be smashing til my fingers wear off.

Brawl will be a good game.

By the way, its not like my fanboyism will hold up the series, it's everybody's fanboyism, Brawl is the one of the most anticipated Wii games soon to be released.

 

[anotherdeadcow]

Everything Yuna has said in this thread is completely true. I've been playing the game for the last week, and he's absolutely right: it's designed to be uncompetitive, and it's really not fun for non-casual play at all.

People keep saying that you can't figure out the game in a week or two, but they don't understand: with Brawl, you absolutely can figure out the game in two weeks. There is NO DEPTH. You don't have options. You don't have combo potential. You can't approach safely. The game is made to favor the camper. We play on 3-stock matches because 4 stocks took WAY too long. You think things are more balanced without ATs and with factory-set lag on all moves, but you're wrong: it means ANY ADVANTAGE which a character has is that much harder to get around. And do you know what follows from that? MARTH. Marth has every advantage. You thought Marth and Fox were hard to beat in Melee? Marth is now unbeatable. You simply have no chance. They nerfed his throw combos, but as those among you who haven't played the game will soon discover, he doesn't need them: he has up-B out of shield. It kills.

There's this other myth that edgeguarding is deeper now. IT ISN'T. You can't actually do it. You all think you'll jump out there and hit me as I'm returning to the edge, but you won't. Why? AIRDODGING IS COMPLETELY SAFE NOW. I'll go right through you every time. I don't have to worry about not being able to make it back. And even if you did hit me, unless I were at a very high percent, I wouldn't die from it anyway. I'd just float back to the stage, usually without even needing my up-B.

Mindgames don't exist now. You can't put on pressure. You can't vary your approaches. The lack of Melee's abilities was filled by nothing. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BECOME GOOD AT THIS GAME. Sakurai has stated that several times.

I hated playing with items in Melee, but in Brawl, it's almost better. At least with items, you can hit people, and they'll die earlier.

I know more people will agree/understand once they've played the game for themselves, but I'm telling you now: Brawl is going nowhere. Brawl is the only fighter I've ever seen which actually took steps backward in its development on purpose. Fighting franchises don't scorn the depth which players add; they don't remove the things which give certain characters advantages; they don't try to put all players on some imaginary equal playing field. They embrace the things which work, and regulate the new depth instead of removing it, and the series gets better with time as the designers and players learn to perfect the system. Brawl is the exact opposite of that. I'd rather play Smash 64 than Brawl. And I really don't like 64.

ill admit it, and flame if you want, but i only played the game for about 4 hours and yet this is exactly the feeling i got. play it at all and its hard not to get this feeling. it just FEELS like a step backwards. regardlessly, people will play it, and someone or some group of people will come out on top, and they will be challenged. it is, IMO, at that point, where people are actually gunning to take that persons place at the top, that the true nature of brawl will be revealed. that is when i believe myself and everyone who even has an opinion on the topic will be proven right or wrong.

but you have to admit, if you used any ATs at all in melee, that it just plain feels slow. its enough to give the game a negative first impression, be it valid or not.

 

[COMMOFDOOM]

Is it too much to ask to at least give it until March 9th?

No the whole point of this discussion is to discourage people from buying it on release because it is fairly likely to not be all that great. Or, if you like, it's nothing like Melee.

 

[Rash]

I've seen videos of Ken play in Melee. To me, it pretty much just looks like Marth going batsh*t insane all over the screen. However, the actual actions being input by Ken go a lot deeper than that. What is seen is not necessarily all that's there.

My point: videos don't tell the whole story.

No the whole point of this discussion is to discourage people from buying it on release because it is fairly likely to not be all that great. Or, if you like, it's nothing like Melee.

You're being sarcastic, right?

 

[Nuvia]

No the whole point of this discussion is to discourage people from buying it on release because it is fairly likely to not be all that great. Or, if you like, it's nothing like Melee.

Are you for real? You're trolling right?

 

[El Cancel]

stuff said

you haven't been watching enough videos.

 

[Jackal478]

No the whole point of this discussion is to discourage people from buying it on release because it is fairly likely to not be all that great. Or, if you like, it's nothing like Melee.

Brawl wasn't meant to be Melee 2.0. It's a sequel not an expansion.

 

[Tanzz]

The moon is a lie.

Yes, this is exactly what we're trying to get at.

I think we need more threads about how Brawl isn't Melee 2.0

 

[Zankoku]

Are you for real? You're trolling right?

Are you for real? You're trolling right?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Brawl wasn't meant to be Melee 2.0. It's a sequel not an expansion.

And sequels aren't supposed to be better than the originals?! When did they start actually trying to make the sequels worse?

 

[NOT Sliq]

You guys just don't get it. First off, ADVANCE TECHNIQUES need to be discovered for Brawl. Next, they have to add more depth, or an equal amount of depth, to its predecessor, otherwise the predecessor is superior (for tournament play; Brawl is OVER 9000 times better than Melee in terms of noobs that didn't play tournament Melee).

Therefor, if Brawl is a step backwards, it is a failure.

You all seem to think that there some magical techniques we haven't found in the game that are just going to make everything all better. Not only will these techniques need to exist, they have to be on par with those from Melee in terms of depth gained.

Right now, Brawl has no combos. This is of course an exaggeration, but as it stands right now, landing 2 hit combos is the standard, and personally that seems pretty ****ing boring.

Right now, Brawl matches are just Jigglypuff dittos, both people spacing until they land a hit, with the other getting hit too far to combo, but not far enough to be killed. JIGGLYPUFF DITTO'S ARE ****ING BORING, EVEN WITH MELEE AT'S.

Right now, the movement system in Brawl has less options then Melee, and therefor has less depth.

You guys all seem to think that we don't get new **** will be found.

What we are saying is, if new things aren't found (substantial new things), based from what we have seen so far, BRAWL IS GOING TO BLOW.

Then you retort some line about Rome not being built in a day (except you don't use that metaphor because that would make you look clever). Either that or you spout the good ol' mantra MELEE 2.0, as if the core gameplay mechanics are different at all.

"You can't approach this game like you did for Melee."

"What, you mean hitting them until you can hit them far enough that they die? I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE ENTIRE GAME!?."

Snap recoveries are ********. You can't possibly argue for them adding depth, because it eliminates the skill needed to sweet spot, and the ability to edge guard from the stage. Now you have to go out there and hit them, which only happens when the don't DI well enough so they can LITERALLY float back onto the stage WITHOUT using their second jump.

I want someone to address these points without using the "new game defense", or the "we'll find stuff defense." Go ahead. Let's do something DIFFERENT as opposed to serving up stale copypasta over and over again.

1.)Combos reduced due to less hitstun, more landing lag, and better DI. Slower pacing, making it less exciting.
2.)Less movement options (DD and WD removed and not replaced with anything new). Less options means less depth.
3.)Auto-snap recoveries. Eliminates skill, and competition is based off of skill.

As Melee stands, it revolves around Combos and edge guarding, and right now neither are prominent at all in Brawl.

I already know someone is going to reply to these with the same old, tired bull****.

 

[Jeremy092387]

In my opinion, it is not needed in Brawl. It adds more balance to the game. Heavy hitting ariels need a drawback and landing lag is the perfect way to balance it.

 

[NOT Sliq]

In my opinion, it is not needed in Brawl. It adds more balance to the game. Heavy hitting ariels need a drawback and landing lag is the perfect way to balance it.

Slower stronger moves need more lag, yes, but not so much more that they are ****ing un-useable.

 

[Nuvia]

TEXT

Oh wow. I had yet to witness it myself, but your kind really can't have fun with your precious techniques.

I'm sorry.

 

[NOT Sliq]

Oh wow. I had yet to witness it myself, but your kind really can't have fun with your precious techniques.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, my point. You didn't play Melee in Tournaments and therefor don't know what is and is not fun, and what is and is not competitive. Playing an Ice Climber player when they can wobble is not fun, because it is all about spacing (just like Brawl). Jigglypuff dittos are ALL about spacing (just like Brawl), and is extremely boring. Samus dittos are also boring because they both live forever (just like in Brawl).

Camping is also extremely boring, which is what Brawl seems to be all about, but instead of camping with projectiles, you camp with spacing, slowly approaching and being very meticulous so as to it your opponent but not get hit yourselves.

Anything can be competitive, but there needs to be both depth (so one person with a lot of experience is vastly superior to a noob), and fun, otherwise there is no point in competing. Otherwise, there would be broken glass eating contests, or punching yourself in the face contests. But neither of those are enjoyable ventures.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh wow. I had yet to witness it myself, but your kind really can't have fun with your precious techniques.

I'm sorry.

Competitive players play competitively. If there's no safe approach, and all the unsafe ones reward you with maybe one or two hits, why approach?

Therefore, camping match.


Which is why we want something to give us at least one way to approach and not get a surefire punishment as a result.

 

[VisetheStompy]

You guys just don't get it. First off, ADVANCE TECHNIQUES need to be discovered for Brawl. Next, they have to add more depth, or an equal amount of depth, to its predecessor, otherwise the predecessor is superior (for tournament play; Brawl is OVER 9000 times better than Melee in terms of noobs that didn't play tournament Melee).

Therefor, if Brawl is a step backwards, it is a failure.

You all seem to think that there some magical techniques we haven't found in the game that are just going to make everything all better. Not only will these techniques need to exist, they have to be on par with those from Melee in terms of depth gained.

Right now, Brawl has no combos. This is of course an exaggeration, but as it stands right now, landing 2 hit combos is the standard, and personally that seems pretty ****ing boring.

Right now, Brawl matches are just Jigglypuff dittos, both people spacing until they land a hit, with the other getting hit too far to combo, but not far enough to be killed. JIGGLYPUFF DITTO'S ARE ****ING BORING, EVEN WITH MELEE AT'S.

Right now, the movement system in Brawl has less options then Melee, and therefor has less depth.

You guys all seem to think that we don't get new **** will be found.

What we are saying is, if new things aren't found (substantial new things), based from what we have seen so far, BRAWL IS GOING TO BLOW.

Then you retort some line about Rome not being built in a day (except you don't use that metaphor because that would make you look clever). Either that or you spout the good ol' mantra MELEE 2.0, as if the core gameplay mechanics are different at all.

"You can't approach this game like you did for Melee."

"What, you mean hitting them until you can hit them far enough that they die? I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE ENTIRE GAME!?."

Snap recoveries are ********. You can't possibly argue for them adding depth, because it eliminates the skill needed to sweet spot, and the ability to edge guard from the stage. Now you have to go out there and hit them, which only happens when the don't DI well enough so they can LITERALLY float back onto the stage WITHOUT using their second jump.

I want someone to address these points without using the "new game defense", or the "we'll find stuff defense." Go ahead. Let's do something DIFFERENT as opposed to serving up stale copypasta over and over again.

1.)Combos reduced due to less hitstun, more landing lag, and better DI. Slower pacing, making it less exciting.
2.)Less movement options (DD and WD removed and not replaced with anything new). Less options means less depth.
3.)Auto-snap recoveries. Eliminates skill, and competition is based off of skill.

As Melee stands, it revolves around Combos and edge guarding, and right now neither are prominent at all in Brawl.

I already know someone is going to reply to these with the same old, tired bull****.

You seem very angry, have you thought about stepping back from the game for a bit and trying to use that energy for something productive?

 

[Nuvia]

Yeah, my point. You didn't play Melee in Tournaments and therefor don't know what is and is not fun.

I facepalm'd IRL.

I feel sorry for you. I really do.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

The moon is a lie.

Are you for real? You're trolling, right?

I dunno, Flandre could've blown that **** up with Marx if she tried.

 

[Tanzz]

I already know someone is going to reply to these with the same old, tired bull****.

You're right about that, here goes....

I want someone to address these points without using the "new game defense", or the "we'll find stuff defense." Go ahead. Let's do something DIFFERENT as opposed to serving up stale copypasta over and over again.

Well, you also have a point there. There really is no other point that anyone could use to defend Brawl's comprable potential for competetive play. The "We'll find stuff" defense is a bit dumb, because it just assumes that there are inherent hidden techniques that players will eventually discover, which is probably not as likely as everyone seems to be assuming.

But when people argue that Brawl is a new game and that you are going to need to adapt to it, THEY'RE RIGHT. It's been out for two weeks, most people haven't played it, the statistics of the game have yet to be analyzed, and research and experimentation has yet to be done. There is just no way you can truly believe that players have reached the level of Mastery (supposedly what makes Brawl less deep of a game) at this premature point in time.

As Melee stands, it revolves around Combos and edge guarding, and right now neither are prominent at all in Brawl.

Brawl just won't revolve around Combos and edge guarding then, it's as simple as that.

 

[NOT Sliq]

You seem very angry, have you thought about stepping back from the game for a bit and trying to use that energy for something productive?

You think about not posting inane ****?

I'm currently doing HOMEWORK for my COLLEGE class. I browse this in order to take small breaks in between working. So why don't you stick to writing your Naruto fanfic and leave the posting to people adding something to the conversation.

I facepalm'd IRL.

I feel sorry for you. I really do.

I'll bet you my car that I can play you at Brawl and make it VERY unfun for you. I can make it boring, tedious, and down right UNFUN. You underestimate people's ability to suck the fun out of just about ANYTHING, which is what will happen if it will mean the difference between winning and losing. That is the essence of competition, winning no matter what with regards to the rules.

I feel sorry for you because you appear to be stupid, which is a shame, because there are already enough stupid people not only in the world, but also on this website.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I facepalm'd IRL.

I feel sorry for you. I really do.

Stop posting here. Really. You don't play Smash in tournaments, so you're fighting a pointless argument and losing because you have no credibilty. *yawn*

 

[Nuvia]

You think about not posting inane ****?

I'm currently doing HOMEWORK for my COLLEGE class. I browse this in order to take small breaks in between working. So why don't you stick to writing your Naruto fanfic and leave the posting to people adding something to the conversation.


I'll bet you my car that I can play you at Brawl and make it VERY unfun for you. I can make it boring, tedious, and down right UNFUN. You underestimate people's ability to suck the fun out of just about ANYTHING, which is what will happen if it will mean the difference between winning and losing. That is the essence of competition, winning no matter what with regards to the rules.

I feel sorry for you because you appear to be stupid, which is a shame, because there are already enough stupid people not only in the world, but also on this website.

You know, it's also irritating that you have to be such a pretentious prick. I mean honestly, where do you get off? What gives you the gall to think you can tell me or anyone else what is fun?

 

[NOT Sliq]

But when people argue that Brawl is a new game and that you are going to need to adapt to it, THEY'RE RIGHT.

It isn't about "Adapting." If they suddenly changed the rules so that all the pieces in chess moved just like Pawns, people would adapt, but that doesn't make the change GOOD.

And Brawl is not a new game. You hit them off and don't let them back. They have hampered the means to do BOTH of these things.

It's been out for two weeks, most people haven't played it, the statistics of the game have yet to be analyzed, and research and experimentation has yet to be done. There is just no way you can truly believe that players have reached the level of Mastery (supposedly what makes Brawl less deep of a game) at this premature point in time.

Man, you say the "We'll find new things argument is dumb," and then use it. There is currently NOTHING to master in Brawl right now besides SPACING. That is it. ONE THING. Therefor, we would need SOMETHING NEW TO MASTER. You just implied that we will find and need to master new techniques, using the same ******** argument as before.

Brawl should be renamed: Super Smash Bros. Spacing.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Oh wow. I had yet to witness it myself, but your kind really can't have fun with your precious techniques.

I'm sorry.

You know, it's also irritating that you have to be such a pretentious prick. I mean honestly, where do you get off? What gives you the gall to think you can tell me or anyone else what is fun?

Hey, what's this?

 

[NOT Sliq]

You know, it's also irritating that you have to be such a pretentious prick. I mean honestly, where do you get off? What gives you the gall to think you can tell me or anyone else what is fun?

What makes you think your 0 knowledge about Tournament level play gives you any sort of credibility to comment on it?

Seriously, I love Melee, but there are circumstances where it can become extremely boring. All it takes is someone camping, which is ALL BRAWL IS. Camping and spacing. You can't tell me whether or not camping or fighting someone that is camping is fun, becuase you haven't played someone that did or done it yourself.

I can talk from experience, while all you can do is spout non-sense based off of NOTHING.

Also, losing generally isn't fun, and that is what you would do if I played you.

 

[Tanzz]

Man, you say the "We'll find new things argument is dumb," and then use it.

That's true, I guess I was refering more to people claming that new hidden techniques like WDing, a completely unique game mechanic, will eventually surface. Not the applications of already known techniques like spacing and whatnot.

There is currently NOTHING to master in Brawl right now besides SPACING.

That's probably true as well, maybe it will stay that way... but its hard to be sure.
Id still play Super Smash Bros. SPACING competetively...

 

[BentoBox]

Sliq, stop trying to imply that everyone's that attended tourneys would agree with you. You think of yourself much too highly.

 

[Nuvia]

Haha, really now.

What your argument really comes down to is one thing. Winning. That's all you care about. And you're afraid. You're afraid that without your techniques you can't win. That you'll be beaten by some nobody who played cheaply. That's all this is really about.

You know, you win some and you lose some. True no one likes to lose, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun. As the saying goes, "winning isn't everything."

And with that, I leave you to your own devices.

 

[xX NJs2RAW Xx]

With brawl, all aerial lag from landing had been reduced greatly. Therefore l cancel is not needed. Sad to see it has been taking out though. Everyone will just have to learn a new game.

 

[soap]

i feel like lcancelling did add strategic depth in the sense that lcancelling was a dynamic trait, different for every attack, different if you hit something, if you missed something, if you hit multiple things, or a shield.

the point is if you were expecting to hit someones shield so you held off to delay your lcancel and they wavedash out the way, that would mess people up and cause to mistime their empty l cancel. lcancelling was a combination of reaction/timing and partly expecting what you were lcancelling against.

as a sheik player, at times, i would shower the ground in front of me with needles in front of incoming opponents and this would make them miss the lcancel or at the least delay it enough to get a grab. and i have an ice climber friend that throws up one light shield, one hard.. and there are many more examples where you can force someone into a situation to miss an lcancel.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Haha, really now.

What your argument really comes down to is one thing. Winning. That's all you care about. And you're afraid. You're afraid that without your techniques you can't win. That you'll be beaten by some nobody who played cheaply. That's all this is really about.

You know, you win some and you lose some. True no one likes to lose, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun. As the saying goes, "winning isn't everything."

And with that, I leave you to your own devices.

Hey, guess what you do at tournaments! You try to win! Yeah!

Seriously, people are starting to embarass me here.

 

[VisetheStompy]

You think about not posting inane ****?

I'm currently doing HOMEWORK for my COLLEGE class. I browse this in order to take small breaks in between working. So why don't you stick to writing your Naruto fanfic and leave the posting to people adding something to the conversation.

I still don't understand. You intentially do things that upset you in order to take a break? What is being added to the conversasion besides anger and ill feelings towards others?

 

[Zankoku]

Haha, really now.

What your argument really comes down to is one thing. Winning. That's all you care about. And you're afraid. You're afraid that without your techniques you can't win. That you'll be beaten by some nobody who played cheaply. That's all this is really about.

You know, you win some and you lose some. True no one likes to lose, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun. As the saying goes, "winning isn't everything."

And with that, I leave you to your own devices.

Sliq mains Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff is capable of playing a very not-fun game in Melee. The point is that since you're playing a game, it may as well be fun. If "winning" and "having fun" are not possible to combine in competitive play, then Brawl will not be good as a competitive game.

This has nothing to do with the party game and one-player game aspects of Brawl, obviously.