The lack of l canceling is not a bad thing.

[mario-man]

It does emphasize the mental side more. While it may take away options at first glance, it makes you develop strategies for using arials, which may in turn give you options.

Umm no, because now, if you're a heavy character, you have basically no approach options. You are forced to use laggy moves and will get punished. If you DO have a non-laggy move, you would have to spam it thus decreasing the damage and knockback.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Well from a previous thread, ( I forgot which one,) But someone said, that the reason why l cancelling was taking off is because the just changed the game so it was obsolete. Due to all the characters being floaty, and some aerials having a lot less lag then others, you simply need to develop a completely different strategy, and in essence providing more depth into the game. But, good point none the less.

This is such a dumb argument and I hear it all the time. How does forcing you shoehorn low lag moves where other moves would be most appropriate add depth? Now, instead of having free reign of your character's abilities to use creatively in any way you choose, your character is randomly and arbitrarily limited in his actions. Not to mention that some characters really do have almost no lag, like Marth, while other characters are just insanely.

 

[Yuna]

It does emphasize the mental side more. While it may take away options at first glance, it makes you develop strategies for using arials, which may in turn give you options.

How the heck does it emphasize anything more than with L-cancel? It does not add any options ("give you options"). It does not make you develop any new strategies that weren't already in Melee unless we find out some new hidden aerial ATs.

All the lack of L-canceling does is limit our choices in the air! We're now forced to use certain tactics that existed already back in Melee instead of having the choice to L-cancel into a mixup (the most common tactic in fighting games is mixupping).

Have you even played this game? Or watched any videos featuring Ike, Bowser, Snake, Ganondorf or any other slow character? They have no aerial approach because every single aerial they can dish out will guarantee the opponent a shieldgrab or shieldhopped aerial.

Logic > You

 

[shadydentist]

I agree with the OP for the most part, but the removal of l-cancelling wouldn't have been too bad if they had sped up the lag to l-cancel speeds. They have not, so this gives certain characters a huge disadvantage.

 

[staindgrey]

How the heck does it emphasize anything more than with L-cancel? It does not add any options ("give you options"). It does not make you develop any new strategies that weren't already in Melee unless we find out some new hidden aerial ATs.

All the lack of L-canceling does is limit our choices in the air! We're now forced to use certain tactics that existed already back in Melee instead of having the choice to L-cancel into a mixup (the most common tactic in fighting games is mixupping).

Have you even played this game? Or watched any videos featuring Ike, Bowser, Snake, Ganondorf or any other slow character? They have no aerial approach because every single aerial they can dish out will guarantee the opponent a shieldgrab or shieldhopped aerial.

Logic > You

You know, for all of the throwing around of the word "competitive", competitors on here sure are a bunch of whiney little b!tches. You know what competitors do? They find new ways to win. No wavedashing? Try rolling like crazy. Try side-steps during multiple attacks to vary your approach. Try using the hardly-mentioned new and improved air dodge, complete with multiple dodges in one jump. Rely more on running, then shielding, rolling, or dodging right as you come up to an attacking opponent. Pile up damage then keep them airborne- since the game is more "floaty", this seems ideal. No l-cancelling? Then find new techniques! It's a new game, new ways to win come included!

My point here is, instead of complaining and whining about this brand new game being, God forbid, different, maybe you could be the first to learn ways to dominate in this game the same way you did in Melee. Complaining will do nothing. Instead of complaining, stick with Melee and save us the earful.

That being said- it's still only been out for TWO WEEKS. Does anyone but me realize how utterly short that is? There will be new "advanced techs" found later on, just like before. I want an archive of these threads so we can look back and cite the different stupid past quotes from people over a year from now.

 

[§leepy God]

I don't need L cancel, becasue it serves little purpose for me. It's only bad to those who depend on it, mainly big characters. But when an old stratagey die's, then comes a new.

 

[wakka444]

A very nice read considering a lot of not so nice reads all over the boards, but nonetheless i can definately see what youre saying and you made a great point about the lag. If there had been l-canceling we would be forced to use it to stay safe in our aerials but now we're dealing with a game with a little more ground game accompanied with better spacing and timing in order to stay safe and imo thats harder than pressing an extra button.

 

[Nuvia]

BAWWWWWWW I don't agree with your opinion so that makes you wrong!

Please, do we really need to do that?

 

[Revven]

unless we find out some new hidden aerial ATs.

Bowser's infinite jump says hi. Also, has anyone thought that maybe they made some aerials laggy on the ground because you're... oh I don't know supposed to ... use them high in the air as finishing moves to someone who's in the high 130's? Double jump, Ganon fair them and they're dead. Double jump, knee them and they're dead. Double jump, Up B, and bair them to do death (Sonic, Game & Watch, Pit, and etc.) They're called aerials for a reason, they're used in the air. Some can be used near the ground and those are the ones with little lag, those with huge lag are meant to be used high in the air as a finisher. Otherwise, you stick with a smash attack to kill your foe.

 

[Eldiran]

Though this is clearly an unresolvable debate at this point, (with the game not being out in the US yet) I feel oddly compelled to contribute a point that occurs to me... I personally don't feel that L-cancelling contributes much to the 'depth' of the game, but rather that it provides a larger scale of skill on which people can placed. The reason for that impression is that there is actually no reason to ever not L-cancel. As such, it doesn't actually give you more choices (excluding the fact that it made certain characters such as Ganondorf or Bowser more playable, but what Brawl seemingly aims to do is balance those characters without the use of L-canceling). Thus L-canceling doesn't actually contribute to strategy, but instead just creates a greater learning curve. As such I'm glad it's out; less buttons for me to press. Though I don't expect anyone (even me, actually; my opinion may change when I get my hands on the game) will reach a definite verdict until they are more familiar with Brawl.

 

[Yuna]

You know, for all of the throwing around of the word "competitive", competitors on here sure are a bunch of whiney little b!tches. You know what competitors do? They find new ways to win. No wavedashing? Try rolling like crazy. Try side-steps during multiple attacks to vary your approach. Try using the hardly-mentioned new and improved air dodge, complete with multiple dodges in one jump. Rely more on running, then shielding, rolling, or dodging right as you come up to an attacking opponent. Pile up damage then keep them airborne- since the game is more "floaty", this seems ideal. No l-cancelling? Then find new techniques! It's a new game, new ways to win come included![/qute]
1) Rolling like crazy = Bad, bad, bad tactic. You know that existed in Melee, right? You know what happened to people who rolled like crazy? That's right, Destroyed.
2) I think you're talking about spotdodging. And you know that existed in Melee as well, right? Good players won't fall for spotdodging. They'll space, time and shield-pressure so you'll get hit for constantly spot-dodging.
3) You do realize the airdodge has lag, right? If they do a multi-hit attack or two quick consecutive attacks, you will get hit. Also, you cannot airdodge twice in quick successions. There's a window in place during which you cannot airdodge after an airdodge.
4) We ran a lot in Melee. We still can. The lack of wavedashing is not all about movement. It's also about options out of shield and ways to punish smashes on your shield. Fox can now spam Upsmash all day without fearing any kind of reprisal unless he's facing Marth (shieldhopped Fair).
5) Did you know, this game has less hitstun? Most moves are also weaker, meaning that even if you hit them, they'll be able to DI away and move before you can hit them again. Heck, most of the time, they can move in time to prevent combos even without DI:ing away.

All of the things you mentioned existed in Melee. And all of them are mediocre to useless. A lot of them are unsafe and will most likely earn you a punish. Running towards your opponent and then rolling through them is not a valid approach. Even if they were shielding, all they'd have to do would be to shieldhop a dair or something.

My point here is, instead of complaining and whining about this brand new game being, God forbid, different, maybe you could be the first to learn ways to dominate in this game the same way you did in Melee. Complaining will do nothing. Instead of complaining, stick with Melee and save us the earful.

Did you know, some of us have played the game? And explored its options? There are almost no new techniques, especially not techniques that can be used for approaching (of which there are none). All we have are the old techniques and options, only much less of them.

That being said- it's still only been out for TWO WEEKS. Does anyone but me realize how utterly short that is? There will be new "advanced techs" found later on, just like before. I want an archive of these threads so we can look back and cite the different stupid past quotes from people over a year from now.

We cannot discuss the game on the assumption that a whole slew of ATs will be found later. We can only discuss what we know so far. I'm so sick and tired of people saying "Stop talking about it! It's only been out for so long!". Then why are you even here if you don't wanna discuss the game?!

And trust me, it's been out for two weeks getting tested by countless competitive players who've been turning it upside down looking for new advanced techniques. They've removed the majority of the old ones. I doubt they put in a slew of new ones (especially since very few have been discovered).

Bowser's infinite jump says hi. Also, has anyone thought that maybe they made some aerials laggy on the ground because you're... oh I don't know supposed to ... use them high in the air as finishing moves to someone who's in the high 130's? Double jump, Ganon fair them and they're dead. Double jump, knee them and they're dead. Double jump, Up B, and bair them to do death (Sonic, Game & Watch, Pit, and etc.) They're called aerials for a reason, they're used in the air. Some can be used near the ground and those are the ones with little lag, those with huge lag are meant to be used high in the air as a finisher. Otherwise, you stick with a smash attack to kill your foe.

Bowser's infinite jump has limited use, can only be done through actually landing inbetween each "infinite jump", can only be used to cancel the Koopa Klaw.

Also, in Melee we could use aerials to shield pressure and approach. We no longer can. This thread is about discussing whether or not the lack of L-canceling is giving us more options. According to you, it's not. We're now, apparently, limited to poking with ground moves.

In order to get them into the air first, you have to hit them with something. How often can you hit someone with a smash now that there's no wavedashing or even dash canceling? Run up, lag as you stop running and then smash, hoping to hit? Dashattack (shieldgrab)?

At least in Melee, we could approach with aerials as well.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

You know, for all of the throwing around of the word "competitive", competitors on here sure are a bunch of whiney little b!tches. You know what competitors do? They find new ways to win. No wavedashing? Try rolling like crazy. Try side-steps during multiple attacks to vary your approach. Try using the hardly-mentioned new and improved air dodge, complete with multiple dodges in one jump. Rely more on running, then shielding, rolling, or dodging right as you come up to an attacking opponent. Pile up damage then keep them airborne- since the game is more "floaty", this seems ideal. No l-cancelling? Then find new techniques! It's a new game, new ways to win come included!

My point here is, instead of complaining and whining about this brand new game being, God forbid, different, maybe you could be the first to learn ways to dominate in this game the same way you did in Melee. Complaining will do nothing. Instead of complaining, stick with Melee and save us the earful.

That being said- it's still only been out for TWO WEEKS. Does anyone but me realize how utterly short that is? There will be new "advanced techs" found later on, just like before. I want an archive of these threads so we can look back and cite the different stupid past quotes from people over a year from now.

I guess u can call what they r doing whining, But they are merely arguing the statement mentioned by the OP. As of right now due to this removal of L-cancelling, most slow characters are placed into Suck tier. ganon is almost unplayable with his lag and u have to spam moves to get damage which ends up making them weaker. his only airial that is fast is upA the rest are useless. at least from what i remember when i played the other day...

 

[Winston]

*flaming of competitive players*

For any game you can "find ways to win", but that doesn't change the fact that we care greatly about its quality and depth.

Imagine if "they" removed all the pieces from chess except pawns, rooks, and kings.


to the original poster:

I would agree with you IF they had, like you said, cut the aerial lag down enough. Sadly, they didn't.

Yuna's point is that the "new strategies" suggested (floating aerials so they finish before landing, wall of pain movement, etc) would still be available if l-cancelling (or shortened lag, I consider them the same thing) existed. I think it's a valid point.

Finally, 56k had a good point: despite what some say, people DO miss L-cancels, and they do get punished. Having another button to press increases the technical limit for players. Pressing one button isn't hard, but doing it on top of everything else (in melee) fox could do adds to the challenge.

Bottom line: it doesn't have to be pressing a button. Just give every character at least a few low-lag aerials.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I don't know but I'm pretty sure Ukemi is L cancelling as seen in monday's update. doesn't anyone check the dojo anymore?

 

[NOT Sliq]

Ganondorf says hi.

His fair went from 12 frames l-canceled, 25 non in Melee, to 35 in Brawl. But yeah, good thing they reduced lag!

 

[mario-man]

okay, I'm stepping out. We might have POSSIBLY been wasting our time here. I've just been talking with someone who is a Melee pro, who has played the game, and he said that auto canceling is in if you finish the aerial before you land. I had thought I heard that it was NOT in, but according to him it is. If that's the case, then the only reason for us to be upset about it being out is to reduce the skill gap. Which is a pretty major reason to me, but still alot less bad than before.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I don't know but I'm pretty sure Ukemi is L cancelling as seen in monday's update. doesn't anyone check the dojo anymore?

Ukemi is 'teching'.

 

[0RLY]

*Legend of Zelda Item Get Chime* ♪DA-DA-DA-DAAAAAAA!♫ You have earned a cookie.

 

[Yuna]

Please, do we really need to do that?

Because this is not a question of opinion. It is not a debatable point. It's a matter of fact.

The OP claims that removing L-canceling has given us more options... which is logically impossible unless we discover a whole bunch of new techniques that do that.

Simply removing L-canceling does not give us any options. It removes a lot of our options and limits them. What it does is force us to use options already present in Melee (and hence not "new" in any way). At least before, we could choose whether to use them or L-canceled aerials.

It's like claiming that if I closed down all colleges in your state, you'd have more choices for college. You wouldn't, you'd just be forced to choose one of the many other inconvenient colleges you could've chosen anyway, only now you don't have the option to choose any of the collleges that used to exist in your home state.

I don't know but I'm pretty sure Ukemi is L cancelling as seen in monday's update. doesn't anyone check the dojo anymore?

Ukemi = Tech (Ground/Wall/Ceiling)

okay, I'm stepping out. We might have POSSIBLY been wasting our time here. I've just been talking with someone who is a Melee pro, who has played the game, and he said that auto canceling is in if you finish the aerial before you land. I had thought I heard that it was NOT in, but according to him it is. If that's the case, then the only reason for us to be upset about it being out is to reduce the skill gap. Which is a pretty major reason to me, but still alot less bad than before.

Who is this "pro" and how do I beat him/her up?

It's not an auto-cancel if you finish the aerial before you land. That's, you know, finishing the aerial before you land. A lot of aerials still lag tons even if they finish before landing (though they'll lag more if they land during them).

The auto-cancel is when certain attacks receive zero lag if you lag before the hitbox even comes out. It has absolutely no use except for a fakeout since the hitbox doesn't actually come out, hence there's no shieldstun, hence you're going to get shieldgrabbed.

 

[NOT Sliq]

Because this is not a question of opinion. It is not a debatable point.

The OP claims that removing L-canceling has given us more options... which is logically impossible unless we discover a whole bunch of new techniques that do that.

Simply removing L-canceling does not give us any options. It removes a lot of our options and limits them. What it does is force us to use options already present in Melee (and hence not "new" in any way). At least before, we could choose whether to use them or L-canceled aerials.

See, it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. It's like claiming removing all heating vents in your house will give you more options of obtaining heat.

I love you.

 

[D20]

I agree with Sliq.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

Ganondorf says hi.

His fair went from 12 frames l-canceled, 25 non in Melee, to 35 in Brawl. But yeah, good thing they reduced lag!

**** son, They reduced the lag by like a million frames yo! /sarcasm


35 frames sounds like plenty of time to punish a person. Enough to taunt and punish possibly.lol. I feel bad for ganon players.

 

[Yuna]

**** son, They reduced the lag by like a million frames yo! /sarcasm


35 frames sounds like plenty of time to punish a person. Enough to taunt and punish possibly.lol. I feel bad for ganon players.

In comparison, 1 second is 60 frames. 35 frames is more than half a second.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

What people really want, whether the realize it or not, isn't L-canceling. It's just non-laggy aerials.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Not necessarily.

 

[D20]

What people really want, whether the realize it or not, isn't L-canceling. It's just non-laggy aerials.

Wrong answer.

 

[killbeast301]

Umm no, because now, if you're a heavy character, you have basically no approach options. You are forced to use laggy moves and will get punished. If you DO have a non-laggy move, you would have to spam it thus decreasing the damage and knockback.

No, you do not have the same reliable easy-to-do approach. You now have to use other moves and mindgames. No, I have not figured out any specific ways to set up arials in a situations like this. That's the whole point of a mindgame though isn't it? If you're predictable and easy to figure out then it doesn't work.

How the heck does it emphasize anything more than with L-cancel? It does not add any options ("give you options"). It does not make you develop any new strategies that weren't already in Melee unless we find out some new hidden aerial ATs.

Yes, it does make you develop strategies. If you can't just rush in and use the arial, then find a way to get one in.

All the lack of L-canceling does is limit our choices in the air! We're now forced to use certain tactics that existed already back in Melee instead of having the choice to L-cancel into a mixup (the most common tactic in fighting games is mixupping).

Or develop ways to get that arial in safely, so that you don't need to l-cancel. And why do you mention the choice to l-cancel? That was one of the OP's main points, there is zero gain from choosing not to l-cancel.

You can shout, “MINDGAMES!” all you want, but regardless, you’re just opening yourself up for punishment.

Have you even played this game? Or watched any videos featuring Ike, Bowser, Snake, Ganondorf or any other slow character? They have no aerial approach because every single aerial they can dish out will guarantee the opponent a shieldgrab or shieldhopped aerial.

then approach on the ground, and find a way to get the arial in without the opponents sheild up, to that the opponent is stunned, and knocked back far enough that you can recover from the lag in time. besides, with the game as floaty as it is, could you land and recover from the lag in time to avoid the sheildgrab with l-canceling?

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Ukemi is 'teching'.

so you would be right. May I call a noobsie oopsie?

 

[NOT Sliq]

No, you do not have the same reliable easy-to-do approach. You now have to use other moves and mindgames. No, I have not figured out any specific ways to set up arials in a situations like this. That's the whole point of a mindgame though isn't it? If you're predictable and easy to figure out then it doesn't work.



Yes, it does make you develop strategies. If you can't just rush in and use the arial, then find a way to get one in.



Or develop ways to get that arial in safely, so that you don't need to l-cancel. And why do you mention the choice to l-cancel? That was one of the OP's main points, there is zero gain from choosing not to l-cancel.



then approach on the ground, and find a way to get the arial in without the opponents sheild up, to that the opponent is stunned, and knocked back far enough that you can recover from the lag in time. besides, with the game as floaty as it is, could you land and recover from the lag in time to avoid the sheildgrab with l-canceling?

We'll do that as soon as you find a way to move objects with your mind.

It's easy to talk in ****ing hypotheticals, but you need to KNOW what you're talking about to provide legitimate scenarios.

Your logic seems to be that since Roy has weak aerials, he should approach from the ground, even though all of his ground moves are slow or weak.

"Hey guys, why don't you change the properties of those characters to instantly make them better?"

The fact of the matter is that because slow characters can't do certain things that characters with no lag means the slow characters inherently have LESS OPTIONS.

Good thing depth wasn't lost.

 

[Nuvia]

L-cancel is out. Whether it gave more options or not is irrelevant. It's out.

 

[yoshi_fan]

I do agree

Great post.

You deserve a YoSHI's COOKIE :D

 

[VersatileBJN]

The fact people cry about a lack of L canceling is funny as ****

They obviously haven't played other fighting games.

"Oh no. I did an unsafe move and now I can't make it safe. I can no longer spam it and have to consider the reward factor! Sticking to Melee! Screw Brawl!

lmao.

brawl for president

 

[§leepy God]

I do agree

Great post.

You deserve a YoSHI's COOKIE :D

Finally!!! Someone should say Yoshi Cookie more offten.

But over and all, I belive it's not such a bad thing, (I already know I've said it before). I'm sure it's a new trick that's better than L Cancel.

 

[NOT Sliq]

The fact people cry about a lack of L canceling is funny as ****

They obviously haven't played other fighting games.

"Oh no. I did an unsafe move and now I can't make it safe. I can no longer spam it and have to consider the reward factor! Sticking to Melee! Screw Brawl!

lmao.

brawl for president

No moves in Melee were safe. But they were at least VIABLE OPTIONS becuase the payout was at least equal to the cost. Now, the cost of doing an aerial is a **** ton of lag, and the benefit is hitting them ONCE. Not to mention the fact that landing a slow move is much harder than a fast one.

Payoff - Risk is completely lopsided in Brawl.

 

[D20]

The fact people cry about a lack of L canceling is funny as ****

brawl for president

Translation... "I'm bad at Melee."

 

[mario-man]

okay, I'm stepping out. We might have POSSIBLY been wasting our time here. I've just been talking with someone who is a Melee pro, who has played the game, and he said that auto canceling is in if you finish the aerial before you land. I had thought I heard that it was NOT in, but according to him it is. If that's the case, then the only reason for us to be upset about it being out is to reduce the skill gap. Which is a pretty major reason to me, but still alot less bad than before.

quoted since it appears at least that no one saw it

 

[NOT Sliq]

quoted since it appears at least that no one saw it

We saw it, but no one cared to comment about it because you were telling us something we already know.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Wrong answer.

No, I'm pretty sure I've nailed it.

 

[Nuvia]

Translation... "I'm bad at Melee."

Oh wow.

/facepalm

 

[mario-man]

We saw it, but no one cared to comment about it because you were telling us something we already know.

LOL then why are we still posting in this thread??