Magus420
Smash Master
Not true!First, l-canceling has no strategic depth whatsoever. The reason for this is that, once learned, there is simply no reason to not do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DavS35HGDE
xD
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Not true!First, l-canceling has no strategic depth whatsoever. The reason for this is that, once learned, there is simply no reason to not do it.
Wow. It sounds so much better the 29th time one of us has had to say this in the past week than the 28 other times we said it.no problem .... but what i was trying to say about the pro's thing is the ones who our on top now. Could take every wavedash and lcancel out of their play against most of the people who use them and who don't and still 3-4 stock us. These little "glitches" is not what makes them pro, Its how fast they think in the situations they are in and how they handle and interperet the person they are fighting.
Works with a whole bunch of aerials that leave you techcrouching... like Peach's Bair. It will only techcrouch grabs that are pretty high up and with limited range, though. You won't be able to get that past, say, Marth (large range) or Jigglypuff (short).
The thing is you talk about Tournament Level Melee like you know what you are talking about, when you ****ing don't. From a noob standpoint Brawl is going to be infinitely better than Melee. BUT FROM A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT IT APPEARS TO BE INFERIOR.BINGO! Ignorance! That's right! Because I DON'T play the way you do- wait, didn't I say that? Ohhhh yeah that's right. Multiple times. In fact, I'm pretty sure the whole time I said I didn't use advanced tech's and the like you love so much, and simply challenged you all to find new ways to dominate instead of remaining nostalgic over Melee.
I'm talking about the whole scene, not just Tournament Melee scene. I go to tournaments constantly, but apparently not the hardcore ones because I rarely see wavedashing, and when I do, they usually just know how to do it a little, they haven't mastered it. I never said I was speaking for you all, I was simply saying that if you really are that hardcore/competitive/whatever, you could try and rise to the challenge of mastering a new game, whether "inferior" or not. If you don't want to, you don't have to, like I've said over and over. Just please stop filling the boards I want to read with this "Brawl sucks compared to Melee!" garbage. Post those in the Melee part where everyone will care about what you really have to say. The only reason I'm still replying to this stuff and not doing something more productive is because I feel Brawl isn't getting any respect for the amazing improvement it is. Your limited view on it from extreme tournament style play does it no justice. I'll say it again: don't like it? Don't play it. Stop feeding us the same old **** and spiking down anyone's thoughts that are actually praising of the game we want so badly.
These forums are for competitive smash players, or those seeking to become competitive. You appear to be neither. You shouldn't be surprised that you are called a noob.BINGO! Ignorance! That's right! Because I DON'T play the way you do- wait, didn't I say that? Ohhhh yeah that's right. Multiple times. In fact, I'm pretty sure the whole time I said I didn't use advanced tech's and the like you love so much, and simply challenged you all to find new ways to dominate instead of remaining nostalgic over Melee.
I'm talking about the whole scene, not just Tournament Melee scene. I go to tournaments constantly, but apparently not the hardcore ones because I rarely see wavedashing, and when I do, they usually just know how to do it a little, they haven't mastered it. I never said I was speaking for you all, I was simply saying that if you really are that hardcore/competitive/whatever, you could try and rise to the challenge of mastering a new game, whether "inferior" or not. If you don't want to, you don't have to, like I've said over and over. Just please stop filling the boards I want to read with this "Brawl sucks compared to Melee!" garbage. Post those in the Melee part where everyone will care about what you really have to say. The only reason I'm still replying to this stuff and not doing something more productive is because I feel Brawl isn't getting any respect for the amazing improvement it is. Your limited view on it from extreme tournament style play does it no justice. I'll say it again: don't like it? Don't play it. Stop feeding us the same old **** and spiking down anyone's thoughts that are actually praising of the game we want so badly.
I can't say whether that would happen or not, I've never played them. But I'm pretty sure you're right, because they most likely play a lot more than I do. but the fact that I choose not to use some of the advanced tech's does not make me inferior or casual or a noob, which is what I sometimes hate about these boards. I just want to talk Smash and give my opinion without getting bashed and called inferior. I love these games and I love playing them competitively with the best to see where I stack- I just don't wavedash. Plain and simple. But that one small difference seems to make me inferior. When I play Brawl online, I really, really want to face some members on here to see where I stack outside of southern Ohio.
Say, would you want to? My friend Reg is a huge Peach player actually, she's a ***** to play sometimes lol
The thing is you talk about Tournament Level Melee like you know what you are talking about, when you ****ing don't. From a noob standpoint Brawl is going to be infinitely better than Melee. BUT FROM A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT IT APPEARS TO BE INFERIOR.
Brawl does suck compared to Melee from A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT. THEREFORE IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS OR DO NOT PLAN ON BEING A PART OF THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS, THEN YOUR OPINION IS NOT VALID.
Brawl will be an AMAZING party game. But it appears it will not be as deep as Melee in TERMS OF TOURNAMENT PLAY.
You can't possibly argue that it will because you know absolutely nothing about Tournament Melee. How could you possibly compate Tournament Melee to Tournament Brawl when you don't know anything about either of them? I at least know about 1 of them.
inb4brawlisanewgame, as if all of a sudden Smash went from a fighter to a cooking game. THE CORE MECHANICS ARE STILL THERE *******S.
Really, how many times must I repeat that? All of what I said were possibilities in my mind on how to play Brawl, because I will continue to compete and find ways to beat people. I don't play with the hardcore tournament scene, so no, I don't know what I'm talking about there with the way you play. I learned how to wavedash with one character, hated it, and went back to the way my friends and I have always played. So, one last time, NO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF MELEE TOURNAMENTS. Everything I said was in terms of Brawl, a game I have yet to play, and is speculation in terms of how I play Melee. Now, I've said it before, I'll say it one last time then just let you insult me in all caps and finally go do something better:BINGO! Ignorance! That's right! Because I DON'T play the way you do- wait, didn't I say that? Ohhhh yeah that's right. Multiple times. In fact, I'm pretty sure the whole time I said I didn't use advanced tech's and the like you love so much, and simply challenged you all to find new ways to dominate instead of remaining nostalgic over Melee.
I'm talking about the whole scene, not just Tournament Melee scene.
You're right. You're absolutely right. Since I chose not to use wavedashing, I'm not competitive. It's like preschool tee ball for me- everyone wins!These forums are for competitive smash players, or those seeking to become competitive. You appear to be neither. You shouldn't be surprised that you are called a noob.
So. . .We've been kinda in agreement the entire time?I never said you did.
I said the OP did.
Agreed.This is where the OP's argument is flawed. True, L-canceling does not add strategic depth to the game, but it does make more attacks usable, more combos doable, more characters viable, etc. I'm not sad to see L-canceling go, since hopefully it will allow less technically advanced players to do well as long as they are smart players, but it certainly added tremendous depth to melee.
The Op also said:So. . .We've been kinda in agreement the entire time?
Crap.
And the OP really said that there will be something else that is simply better that L-canceling.
No way! =O I used all of G&W's aerials pretty much equally whether I landed on the ground or not. I even tapped L for each aerial (just because of habit). One of G&W's best approaches involves an aerial that can't be L-canceled. (Bair)Agreed.
I forget if it's his u-air or his d-air but Game & Watch has an aerial in Melee that can't be l-canceled. I know that because of that problem, most G&W players didn't use that move. This means it caused slightly less depth for G&W users.
Disclaimer: this is not to continue or start an argument, just musing.Only now, GimpyFish can't possibly main Bowser anymore unless he wants to die horribly every time he tries to approach.
Did you just argue how bad of a character Bowser supposedly was in Melee and that Gimpy was exceptionally good as him while at the same time admitting to having no idea of how Bowser plays, where he is on the tierlist (have you ever heard of individual matchups?) or having even seen a competent Bowser player play him?Disclaimer: this is not to continue or start an argument, just musing.
Gimpy really shouldn't have been so good with Bowser in the last game. What tier was he? I've never, ever seen anyone use Bowser even close to effectively, and especially not the way he did. Bowser, to most , was a useless character that would "die horribly every time he tries to approach." I'm pretty sure he'll find a way. Give him more than two weeks, and he'll master whomever he wants. That's what competitors do.
I'm personally hoping that Link gets faster than before, but so far it isn't looking that way. Toon Link it is, then.
After a multi-hour break I came back to find my topic a huge argument. I was going to read through the whole thing before replying, but this post shows that a lot of this argument is a huge miscommunication.Because this is not a question of opinion. It is not a debatable point. It's a matter of fact.
The OP claims that removing L-canceling has given us more options... which is logically impossible unless we discover a whole bunch of new techniques that do that.
Simply removing L-canceling does not give us any options. It removes a lot of our options and limits them. What it does is force us to use options already present in Melee (and hence not "new" in any way). At least before, we could choose whether to use them or L-canceled aerials.
It's like claiming that if I closed down all colleges in your state, you'd have more choices for college. You wouldn't, you'd just be forced to choose one of the many other inconvenient colleges you could've chosen anyway, only now you don't have the option to choose any of the collleges that used to exist in your home state.
Ukemi = Tech (Ground/Wall/Ceiling)
Who is this "pro" and how do I beat him/her up?
It's not an auto-cancel if you finish the aerial before you land. That's, you know, finishing the aerial before you land. A lot of aerials still lag tons even if they finish before landing (though they'll lag more if they land during them).
The auto-cancel is when certain attacks receive zero lag if you lag before the hitbox even comes out. It has absolutely no use except for a fakeout since the hitbox doesn't actually come out, hence there's no shieldstun, hence you're going to get shieldgrabbed.
Did you just argue how bad of a character Bowser supposedly was in Melee and that Gimpy was exceptionally good as him while at the same time admitting to having no idea of how Bowser plays, where he is on the tierlist (have you ever heard of individual matchups?) or having even seen a competent Bowser player play him?
I'm just gonna say right now that is false. If you play N64 online Z cancelling(or any advanced trick) is not impossible to do, or even difficult with the delay and that is when you're playing against someone on the opposite coasts of the states.THE WHOLE REASON IT (or any other advanced tech) IS OUT IS BECAUSE OF ONLINE LAG TIME!!
It was showing how faulty your arguments are since you have a penchant for arguing points you know next to nothing about.1) Bowser is low-tier. I was asking the question rhetorically, since I assumed you already knew. It was for effect.
2) I didn't say I had no idea how he plays, but I personally hate using him. I'd pick him only over Yoshi in Melee. I hated using him. That was my point.
3) I've seen one, and only one, video of a Bowser ditto match with Gimpy and someone else, and Gimpy didn't seem to have much trouble disposing of him.
I said I wasn't trying to start another argument, I was just musing. So was it really at all necessary to shoot down everything I said, relevant or not to the conversation at large, just to prove that you play professionally and I don't? You really need to realize we're talking about a videogame here. All I said was of the 'n00bs' that I love playing with, hardly anyone likes Bowser. I can't remember the last time I lost to a Bowser, or if I even did. But I know for a fact if I played Gimp, he'd own me. That was my point. He'll find a way to own with Bowser again because my guess is he won't just give up on Brawl because it's different. Geez.
marioman said:THE WHOLE REASON IT (or any other advanced tech) IS OUT IS BECAUSE OF ONLINE LAG TIME!!
i read back a little to find that bushido already said what i wanted to say only better. in competitive play, not necessarily just tourneys but for any players who play the game religiously, a ton of moves and characters will be rendered useless due to the lack of a lag cancel, and the game does not make up for this is any way that is currently known. granted people have only scratched the surface of brawl, im just saying, thats one hell of a discovery to be made.Agreed.
I forget if it's his u-air or his d-air but Game & Watch has an aerial in Melee that can't be l-canceled. I know that because of that problem, most G&W players didn't use that move. This means it caused slightly less depth for G&W users. Now take Brawl's lack of l-canceling and I'm sure almost every single character will have at least 1 or 2 aerials that are too laggy to ever use. This will cause a huge decrease in depth because there's nothing we can do shorten or cancel that lag. The moves become useless.
Granted, there is probably a lot to uncover in the way we play Brawl, but as far as l-canceling is concerned, I don't think we're better off without it. If they made Brawl so that you could pull off combo's in Melee without l-canceling then that's one thing, but that isn't the case, so I stand by how I feel about it.
You know, this is the sole reason I find it hard to respect "pros". You guys are sick at the game, and I love watching your videos, but when I say anything, anything at all, I'm shot down like I know nothing. I've owned the game since the first day it was out. I've played the hell out of it, ruined multiple controllers doing it, and went out and bought a new disc when my original one had practically died from wear. When I say something, it's based on what I know and what I see in videos.It was showing how faulty your arguments are since you have a penchant for arguing points you know next to nothing about.
is this in reference to me?I'm glad you are the all-knowing Brawl master and supreme intellectual being of Smash, so you can tell me what's good and bad about said game.
Lol thats how you know they've got the pro mind set. They've moved on. Only reason I'm still posting so much is because the games not out yet >.>You know what I find humorous?
Gimpy and other worshiped players have moved on from the "OMG, none of the old techs work!" stage, and all the so called "Hard cores" are busy dirtying their pants over the lack of L canceling.
I also think that the point that the TC is making is that we now have to think more. Not gain more options, but think more about choices.
Sure a couple of attacks may not work well. They will be used for KOs.
L canceling may take away options but it gives us reasons to use other strategies. We may have lost the collage nearer to home, but we now are considering the collages further away, which have more subjects. And as no one else is going to the old Collage anymore, no one has an advantage from going to the other collage (L-Canceling) so it is back to normal skill. This will never shorten the bridge between ignorance and advanced techs, but it will mean people have discovered an old playground.
Have you ever thought that just maybe, it is because you know nothing (or very little) or are just plain wrong?You know, this is the sole reason I find it hard to respect "pros". You guys are sick at the game, and I love watching your videos, but when I say anything, anything at all, I'm shot down like I know nothing. I've owned the game since the first day it was out. I've played the hell out of it, ruined multiple controllers doing it, and went out and bought a new disc when my original one had practically died from wear. When I say something, it's based on what I know and what I see in videos.
1) The game is not a lot more balanced. Who told you this? In this game, you're either a good character or a bad one. There are hardly any inbetweens.I think the real concern is the fact that some aerials in brawl have very little lag while others have a lot which is an even bigger problem because l-canceling is gone. But, the fact that the game is a lot more balanced makes this not as big of a deal, but nonetheless its there. And yes i know that some moves always had more lag than others even with l-canceling, but i find that its a lot more significant in brawl.
For example, fox's dair has like really little lag compare it to another aerial say bowser's fair. It is A LOT faster. In melee fox's dair had lag if u didn't l-cancel and so did bowser's, but l-canceling helped bowser's fair be much less of a problem.
In brawl its like fox got the l cancel to an already less laggy dair move and bower's fair didn't. That's the way i see it
L-canceling was a choice. Nobody forced anyone into L-canceling. I know tons of people who never employed it, were nonethewiser and still loved the game.Remember what Iwata and Miyamoto had in mind for the Wii? The Wii is suppose to be playable for everyone. Mario Kart may be dumbed down to cater to the general audience. SSBB may have changed for the same reason. If I recall, the developers were rabid fans of the game. One of the very first posts from Sakurai mentions the developers having extremely worn down gamecube controllers as a result from playing too much SSBM.
We used them in Melee. We explored them in Melee. They are very limited and some just suck. The game becomes a huge campfest, you become very predictable and there really isn't much you can do anymore to try to get an opening besides one really spaced hit to someone's shield and then you retreat.but it gives us reasons to use other strategies.
It always did.Not reading it all, game auto l cancels it for you now.
Not posting in the Brawl forums =/= "moved on" from mourning the loss of all ATs and restrictions of BrawlLol thats how you know they've got the pro mind set. They've moved on. Only reason I'm still posting so much is because the games not out yet >.>
You don't get it. The inferior techs are inferior because they're so limited. They're often high-risk/low gain or just a one-hit-jab. No shield-pressure or mixupping can be gotten from them (at least not much). The tactic of "Rolling like you're mad" is also just asking for a punish.And remember those 'inferior' Melee techs? They were inferior because the 'better' techs (L-cancelling/wavedashing) were around. With no 'superior' techs around these 'inferior' techs are no longer the same rubbish they were--considering this is a different game. And refresh my memory--how come aerials are the ONLY way to approach?
And even if people know little/nothing about the tourney scene, if they're not trolls you could be less condescending about it. This is why the pros get attacked and idiotic casual elitists exists--they're trying to attack an attitude rather than the way things are.
Totally agree.(Yuna's post)
^I really think you're still thinking too heavily in terms of Melee. The fact alone that Brawl feels different means you can't play it the same way.
And remember those 'inferior' Melee techs? They were inferior because the 'better' techs (L-cancelling/wavedashing) were around. With no 'superior' techs around these 'inferior' techs are no longer the same rubbish they were--considering this is a different game. And refresh my memory--how come aerials are the ONLY way to approach?
And even if people know little/nothing about the tourney scene, if they're not trolls you could be less condescending about it. This is why the pros get attacked and idiotic casual elitists exists--they're trying to attack an attitude rather than the way things are.
So much truth. In addition, they should remove the ability to hit people as well. I mean, there's no reason not to hit people to knock them out.Falco can SHL kinda well, barely enough for an approach
"Once you learn to l-cancel, there's no reason not to do it"
They should remove recovering too. Oh, and teching.