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The lack of l canceling is not a bad thing.
- Thread starter ecstatic
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Wow. It sounds so much better the 29th time one of us has had to say this in the past week than the 28 other times we said it.no problem.... but what i was trying to say about the pro's thing is the ones who our on top now. Could take every wavedash and lcancel out of their play against most of the people who use them and who don't and still 3-4 stock us. These little "glitches" is not what makes them pro, Its how fast they think in the situations they are in and how they handle and interperet the person they are fighting.
Works with a whole bunch of aerials that leave you techcrouching... like Peach's Bair. It will only techcrouch grabs that are pretty high up and with limited range, though. You won't be able to get that past, say, Marth (large range) or Jigglypuff (short).
The thing is you talk about Tournament Level Melee like you know what you are talking about, when you ****ing don't. From a noob standpoint Brawl is going to be infinitely better than Melee. BUT FROM A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT IT APPEARS TO BE INFERIOR.
Brawl does suck compared to Melee from A TOURNAMENT STANDPOINT. THEREFORE IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS THEN YOUR OPINION IS NOT VALID BECAUSE YOU LACK THE KNOWLEDGE NECESSARY TO MAKE A CORRELATION BETWEEN THE 2.
Brawl will be an AMAZING party game. But it appears it will not be as deep as Melee in TERMS OF TOURNAMENT PLAY.
You can't possibly argue that it will because you know absolutely nothing about Tournament Melee. How could you possibly compare Tournament Melee to Tournament Brawl when you don't know anything about either of them? I at least know about 1 of them.
inb4brawlisanewgame, as if all of a sudden Smash went from a fighter to a cooking game. THE CORE MECHANICS ARE STILL THERE *******S.
The game may seem deeper for noobs because they never used the AT's to actually realize how versatile they were, so therefore NOTHING HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE GAME FROM THEIR STANDPOINT, SINCE THEY NEVER USED THEM ANYWAYS.
ShortAssassin
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These forums are for competitive smash players, or those seeking to become competitive. You appear to be neither. You shouldn't be surprised that you are called a noob.
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Really, how many times must I repeat that? All of what I said were possibilities in my mind on how to play Brawl, because I will continue to compete and find ways to beat people. I don't play with the hardcore tournament scene, so no, I don't know what I'm talking about there with the way you play. I learned how to wavedash with one character, hated it, and went back to the way my friends and I have always played. So, one last time, NO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF MELEE TOURNAMENTS. Everything I said was in terms of Brawl, a game I have yet to play, and is speculation in terms of how I play Melee. Now, I've said it before, I'll say it one last time then just let you insult me in all caps and finally go do something better:
Don't like it? Don't play it. Stop clogging the Brawl boards with nostalgic thoughts of Melee. There are separate boards for that.
You're right. You're absolutely right. Since I chose not to use wavedashing, I'm not competitive. It's like preschool tee ball for me- everyone wins!
The superior attitude of some people really amuses me. Playing differently does not make me a noob. yes, wavedashing can kill me, I never said it wouldn't, but I don't play that way, and I play with competitive people who don't either. A noob would be my roommate, who never played the game before, gloated that it looked easy and he could whoop my @$$, then got his @$$ handed to him. I'm competitive and want to play with other competitors; I just don't want a teching match. That, sir, does not make me a noob.
killbeast301
Smash Lord
So. . .We've been kinda in agreement the entire time?
Crap.
And the OP really said that there will be something else that is simply better that L-canceling.
Agreed.
I forget if it's his u-air or his d-air but Game & Watch has an aerial in Melee that can't be l-canceled. I know that because of that problem, most G&W players didn't use that move. This means it caused slightly less depth for G&W users. Now take Brawl's lack of l-canceling and I'm sure almost every single character will have at least 1 or 2 aerials that are too laggy to ever use. This will cause a huge decrease in depth because there's nothing we can do shorten or cancel that lag. The moves become useless.
Granted, there is probably a lot to uncover in the way we play Brawl, but as far as l-canceling is concerned, I don't think we're better off without it. If they made Brawl so that you could pull off combo's in Melee without l-canceling then that's one thing, but that isn't the case, so I stand by how I feel about it.
The Op also said:
* "First, l-canceling has no strategic depth whatsoever."
* And then he ranted about how useless L-canceling would be in Brawl.
* More ranting.
* Then a mention of "Well, we'll probably find new techs".
There's a lot of BS in there that kinda builds up to "L-canceling wouldn't be useful in Brawl. We'll probably find new to play the game but if we don't, no biggie".
Only now, GimpyFish can't possibly main Bowser anymore unless he wants to die horribly every time he tries to approach.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
No way! =O I used all of G&W's aerials pretty much equally whether I landed on the ground or not. I even tapped L for each aerial (just because of habit). One of G&W's best approaches involves an aerial that can't be L-canceled. (Bair)
His Bair, uair, and nair can't be l-canceled. But they have relatively little landing lag so it never really mattered to me.
However, the landing lag on G&W's fair in Brawl troubles me a little bit. It's just the same as Melee's, but now it can't be l-canceled
. I lost a match in Brawl because I was attacked during the heavy lag of my fair -.-
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Disclaimer: this is not to continue or start an argument, just musing.
Gimpy really shouldn't have been so good with Bowser in the last game. What tier was he? I've never, ever seen anyone use Bowser even close to effectively, and especially not the way he did. Bowser, to most , was a useless character that would "die horribly every time he tries to approach." I'm pretty sure he'll find a way. Give him more than two weeks, and he'll master whomever he wants. That's what competitors do.
I'm personally hoping that Link gets faster than before, but so far it isn't looking that way. Toon Link it is, then.
Did you just argue how bad of a character Bowser supposedly was in Melee and that Gimpy was exceptionally good as him while at the same time admitting to having no idea of how Bowser plays, where he is on the tierlist (have you ever heard of individual matchups?) or having even seen a competent Bowser player play him?
BuSHiDo/56k: The reason why some of G&W's aerials couldn't be L-canceled in Melee was because they simply did not end once he landed. They kept going 'til the full animation had come out.
ecstatic
Smash Journeyman
After a multi-hour break I came back to find my topic a huge argument. I was going to read through the whole thing before replying, but this post shows that a lot of this argument is a huge miscommunication.
I wasn't trying to say removing l-canceling was giving us new options. (I said later that that may have been the devs plan, though.) I'm not even saying it's GOOD that they got rid of l-canceling. I'm just saying it isn't a negative thing. L-canceling did amazing things for melee. I always l-cancel in melee. I'm just saying it wasn't necessary for them to keep it in Brawl. READ THIS REASONING BEFORE REPLYING: I know that Brawl has some extremely laggy aerials. I'm not saying that l-canceling wouldn't have helped those ones, I'm saying that the culprit isn't l-canceling's removal. The devs could've just made them have very much less lag, without l-canceling, and it wouldn't be any different, except that it's easier to do what you want. With l-canceling, there's almost* never a reason to not do it.
*I know this is different from before. The only post I saw after this one, and NOT_Sliq's immediately after, was Magus's at the top of the last page, because I clicked there instead of the topic title. That's a rare exception, though, that only applies to a number of moves.
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1) Bowser is low-tier. I was asking the question rhetorically, since I assumed you already knew. It was for effect.
2) I didn't say I had no idea how he plays, but I personally hate using him. I'd pick him only over Yoshi in Melee. I hated using him. That was my point.
3) I've seen one, and only one, video of a Bowser ditto match with Gimpy and someone else, and Gimpy didn't seem to have much trouble disposing of him.
I said I wasn't trying to start another argument, I was just musing. So was it really at all necessary to shoot down everything I said, relevant or not to the conversation at large, just to prove that you play professionally and I don't? You really need to realize we're talking about a videogame here. All I said was of the 'n00bs' that I love playing with, hardly anyone likes Bowser. I can't remember the last time I lost to a Bowser, or if I even did. But I know for a fact if I played Gimp, he'd own me. That was my point. He'll find a way to own with Bowser again because my guess is he won't just give up on Brawl because it's different. Geez.
WastingPenguins
Smash Ace
I posted this in another thread a while back but it's relevant so I'll repost.
Most of the people arguing in this thread clearly have little experience with true high-level, competitive Smash. For them, examples of competitive Brawl floating around are not be too far removed from what they knew and loved in Melee. Even if it turns out to be a relatively shallow affair compared to Melee, they will have no context by which to judge this. Their opinions are filtered through their understanding of previous Smash games, which, in comparison to true expert play, was a pretty shallow affair to begin with.
For these guys, Brawl will be great no matter what, and remain competitive in a scope that is acceptable to them. For some of the players here who would have risen beyond that scope, Brawl COULD (barring some extreme evolution in play style that is somehow eluding us) remain limited and relatively shallow.
It all depends on where you stand. Everyone has a different perspective on the competitive scene that is unique to them. If you lack context (i.e. haven't played some true pros and gotten absolutely DESTROYED despite years of what you thought was competitive practice like I have many times), it is impossible for many people here to really understand what the lack of something like l-canceling does to Smash Bros.
Most of the people arguing in this thread clearly have little experience with true high-level, competitive Smash. For them, examples of competitive Brawl floating around are not be too far removed from what they knew and loved in Melee. Even if it turns out to be a relatively shallow affair compared to Melee, they will have no context by which to judge this. Their opinions are filtered through their understanding of previous Smash games, which, in comparison to true expert play, was a pretty shallow affair to begin with.
For these guys, Brawl will be great no matter what, and remain competitive in a scope that is acceptable to them. For some of the players here who would have risen beyond that scope, Brawl COULD (barring some extreme evolution in play style that is somehow eluding us) remain limited and relatively shallow.
It all depends on where you stand. Everyone has a different perspective on the competitive scene that is unique to them. If you lack context (i.e. haven't played some true pros and gotten absolutely DESTROYED despite years of what you thought was competitive practice like I have many times), it is impossible for many people here to really understand what the lack of something like l-canceling does to Smash Bros.
M3tr01D
Smash Lord
I'm just gonna say right now that is false. If you play N64 online Z cancelling(or any advanced trick) is not impossible to do, or even difficult with the delay and that is when you're playing against someone on the opposite coasts of the states.
The same is true with any online game though, the delay can be bothersome but you can still do anything you can do on console or on LAN in the online version of the game. Removing techniques is NOT done to accommodate lag, the developers simply wanted this game to be as noob friendly as they can make it. Removing L cancelling means a much larger group of players can compete closer to the top of the ladder, which is way more fun then playing the game and sucking. If someone has fun with the game they might recommend it to others, further increasing sales of the game. Companies enjoy making money.
anotherdeadcow
Smash Apprentice
i gotta agree completely with yunas posts. l cancelling is not a tech that directly effects the opponent, yet it creates tons of new options for the player to do so.
yes, its true that no one can l cancel, but that doesnt "level the field". i played brawl only briefly, but i found it all but pointless to do aerials with heavier characters. some characters have very little lag for aerials, and even though l canceling reduced lag but retained these proportions, it greatly reduced the gap in time between sheik landing a fair and dk or bowser landing a dair. most often, l canceling was a means to combo or defend, so simply saying that since no one can use it so its the same game but slower is ridiculous. it actually removes the option to continue your combo after your aerial, or to defend after you miss one.
granted that the mechanics were different and thus slightly foriegn to us, we noticed that we found ourselves resorting to more defensive styles than in melee. trying to combo often resulted in getting hit, and blocking an aerial meant a free grab, every time. melee was a game about combos, and brawl seems to be about winning a lot of one hit conflicts. a good chunk of this is due to the lack of the l cancel.
finally, brawl just played slower. one of my favorite things in melee (and what made pro competition so enjoyable to watch) is the speed. almost everything could be canceled, very little lag was present. in brawl, slower characters were literally PAINFUL to play. between those of us at equal skill levels, the one who chose the fastest character, reguardless of how close the character played to their main in melee, always won.
this is, of course, all my opinion (my friends who never learned l cancelling and WDing were literally ecstatic to see them gone), but like yuna said, the fact that l cancelling removes a lot of options is just that; fact. well see how "balanced" the game is when the pros pick the game apart and take it to a tourney. its true that the real pros will find new ways to win, and i do hope that they take brawl to the level melee was at. im not a brawl hater, in fact i really hope they can take it to melees level because i really do like the rarely mentioned improvements to gameplay, but as a melee fan i would hate to see my favorite game replaced by an inferior one. all i and id say most other people can do for now is to wait till we have the american release in our hands for at least a couple months and see what things are like then...
yes, its true that no one can l cancel, but that doesnt "level the field". i played brawl only briefly, but i found it all but pointless to do aerials with heavier characters. some characters have very little lag for aerials, and even though l canceling reduced lag but retained these proportions, it greatly reduced the gap in time between sheik landing a fair and dk or bowser landing a dair. most often, l canceling was a means to combo or defend, so simply saying that since no one can use it so its the same game but slower is ridiculous. it actually removes the option to continue your combo after your aerial, or to defend after you miss one.
granted that the mechanics were different and thus slightly foriegn to us, we noticed that we found ourselves resorting to more defensive styles than in melee. trying to combo often resulted in getting hit, and blocking an aerial meant a free grab, every time. melee was a game about combos, and brawl seems to be about winning a lot of one hit conflicts. a good chunk of this is due to the lack of the l cancel.
finally, brawl just played slower. one of my favorite things in melee (and what made pro competition so enjoyable to watch) is the speed. almost everything could be canceled, very little lag was present. in brawl, slower characters were literally PAINFUL to play. between those of us at equal skill levels, the one who chose the fastest character, reguardless of how close the character played to their main in melee, always won.
this is, of course, all my opinion (my friends who never learned l cancelling and WDing were literally ecstatic to see them gone), but like yuna said, the fact that l cancelling removes a lot of options is just that; fact. well see how "balanced" the game is when the pros pick the game apart and take it to a tourney. its true that the real pros will find new ways to win, and i do hope that they take brawl to the level melee was at. im not a brawl hater, in fact i really hope they can take it to melees level because i really do like the rarely mentioned improvements to gameplay, but as a melee fan i would hate to see my favorite game replaced by an inferior one. all i and id say most other people can do for now is to wait till we have the american release in our hands for at least a couple months and see what things are like then...
It was showing how faulty your arguments are since you have a penchant for arguing points you know next to nothing about.
marioman said:
Wrong!
Online lag time lags both parties in order to ensure that the same thing happens on both screens (or all 3 or 4). The only difference would be the timing of which one would have to time all of the advanced techniques because the game would lag ("go slower"), like GGXX-online or DoA-online.
Have you ever played anything online? Saying "they have to eliminate this and that because of lag" is like saying "All online play should be staring at a dot move".
anotherdeadcow
Smash Apprentice
i read back a little to find that bushido already said what i wanted to say only better. in competitive play, not necessarily just tourneys but for any players who play the game religiously, a ton of moves and characters will be rendered useless due to the lack of a lag cancel, and the game does not make up for this is any way that is currently known. granted people have only scratched the surface of brawl, im just saying, thats one hell of a discovery to be made.
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You know, this is the sole reason I find it hard to respect "pros". You guys are sick at the game, and I love watching your videos, but when I say anything, anything at all, I'm shot down like I know nothing. I've owned the game since the first day it was out. I've played the hell out of it, ruined multiple controllers doing it, and went out and bought a new disc when my original one had practically died from wear. When I say something, it's based on what I know and what I see in videos.
That said, I told you, flat out, right at the beginning of my original post and then again in my next one to you, that I was not ARGUING. You're arrogant and assume anyone who does not play professionally is inferior. All this over a videogame? Seriously? A videogame? I love getting competitive too, but I like trying to teach other people to play so I have someone else to play with or talk about the game with. Simply telling them they know nothing and that they're inferior does absolutely nothing. Does it make you feel awesome? Really?
I respect the pros, even if I think "pro" is the wrong term. I think the way they can find these glitches and utilize them is incredible, and their reaction time is sick. I love the Youtube videos they post, and I'd actually like to see how I stack up to the likes of Gimpy and Eggz and such, just to see exactly how much higher they are than I am. But its snide remarks like you seem to love to dish out to us 'noobs' that kills that respect. I play a different way, so I know nothing. All I did was compliment Gimpyfish and predict that he would still find a way to be at the top of the food chain with Bowser.
Now, will you please, PLEASE not shoot down points of an argument I'm not trying to make and continue insulting my intelligence? If you can't honor that simple request on a message board, then you're just a jack@$$, plain and simple.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
I'm glad you are the all-knowing Brawl master and supreme intellectual being of Smash, so you can tell me what's good and bad about said game.
anotherdeadcow
Smash Apprentice
is this in reference to me?
controlfreak7
Smash Ace
I think the real concern is the fact that some aerials in brawl have very little lag while others have a lot which is an even bigger problem because l-canceling is gone. But, the fact that the game is a lot more balanced makes this not as big of a deal, but nonetheless its there. And yes i know that some moves always had more lag than others even with l-canceling, but i find that its a lot more significant in brawl.
For example, fox's dair has like really little lag compare it to another aerial say bowser's fair. It is A LOT faster. In melee fox's dair had lag if u didn't l-cancel and so did bowser's, but l-canceling helped bowser's fair be much less of a problem.
In brawl its like fox got the l cancel to an already less laggy dair move and bower's fair didn't. That's the way i see it
For example, fox's dair has like really little lag compare it to another aerial say bowser's fair. It is A LOT faster. In melee fox's dair had lag if u didn't l-cancel and so did bowser's, but l-canceling helped bowser's fair be much less of a problem.
In brawl its like fox got the l cancel to an already less laggy dair move and bower's fair didn't. That's the way i see it
would've been nice to have a form of L-canceling in if certain ariels had advantages to not l-canceling them.
i.e. Kirby's down air would land an extra hit with some added knockback, or even spew out stars on both sides for added range if not L-canceled, but if the attack was canceled it could be useful in a combo situation.
Alas it doesn't really matter ...Brawl is complete
i.e. Kirby's down air would land an extra hit with some added knockback, or even spew out stars on both sides for added range if not L-canceled, but if the attack was canceled it could be useful in a combo situation.
Alas it doesn't really matter ...Brawl is complete
strider2k
Smash Cadet
Remember what Iwata and Miyamoto had in mind for the Wii? The Wii is suppose to be playable for everyone. Mario Kart may be dumbed down to cater to the general audience. SSBB may have changed for the same reason. If I recall, the developers were rabid fans of the game. One of the very first posts from Sakurai mentions the developers having extremely worn down gamecube controllers as a result from playing too much SSBM.
From personal experience, wavedashing widened the gap more than L-cancelling. I remember before I utilized L-cancelling, I was relying more on zoning and space control basics from the Street Fighter games to limit the options of the opponent. L-cancelling was just icing on the cake to add to the list of usable moves to confine the opponent.
Off topic but with wavedashing, it widened gap simply because people could do more combos, get out of sticky situations and get into position to punish. Wavedashing seems to be more of a person's dexterity than mind games.
So in conclusion, I will still suck at the game but I may have a 20% better chance at winning since I fundamentally have a better mindset in zoning and space control. Street Fighter is all about zoning and space control.
From personal experience, wavedashing widened the gap more than L-cancelling. I remember before I utilized L-cancelling, I was relying more on zoning and space control basics from the Street Fighter games to limit the options of the opponent. L-cancelling was just icing on the cake to add to the list of usable moves to confine the opponent.
Off topic but with wavedashing, it widened gap simply because people could do more combos, get out of sticky situations and get into position to punish. Wavedashing seems to be more of a person's dexterity than mind games.
So in conclusion, I will still suck at the game but I may have a 20% better chance at winning since I fundamentally have a better mindset in zoning and space control. Street Fighter is all about zoning and space control.
Mama
Smash Ace
There are several reasons this thread is un necessary and the original post was pretty ignorant and uninformed. First of all you that that the depth L-canceling provides Brawl is pointless and unnecessary. Well for one thing L-canceling isn't in Brawl. In Melee the only reason it was necessary as because it existed. Think about that for ten minutes. Brawl doesn't have a form of universal lag canceling. So of course we don't need it. Theres a way around it. Its like a course with no short cut and a course with a short cut. Think about that for a while too.
Thats all there is to it. L-canceling never provided depth in Melee either. It just existed. And because it was universal. It was absolutely necessary in order to keep up with the competitive populous. All the people that are complaining right now about Brawl and the way it plays , it being too slow, not being able to kill, or whatever don't really deserve to call themselves pros at all. They aren't looking at the game for what it is. They're not ready for a change. In this regard its the open minded people like myself (and a lot of the really good Melee players) that are the most prepared for the transition. As well as the scrubs since they never got that good in the first place. However once things get under way the complainers will learn from the others and get better again while scrubs fall behind again. In the mean time we need to stop the complaining and pointless threads like these.
Thats all there is to it. L-canceling never provided depth in Melee either. It just existed. And because it was universal. It was absolutely necessary in order to keep up with the competitive populous. All the people that are complaining right now about Brawl and the way it plays , it being too slow, not being able to kill, or whatever don't really deserve to call themselves pros at all. They aren't looking at the game for what it is. They're not ready for a change. In this regard its the open minded people like myself (and a lot of the really good Melee players) that are the most prepared for the transition. As well as the scrubs since they never got that good in the first place. However once things get under way the complainers will learn from the others and get better again while scrubs fall behind again. In the mean time we need to stop the complaining and pointless threads like these.
pika-power
Smash Apprentice
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You know what I find humorous?
Gimpy and other worshiped players have moved on from the "OMG, none of the old techs work!" stage, and all the so called "Hard cores" are busy dirtying their pants over the lack of L canceling.
I also think that the point that the TC is making is that we now have to think more. Not gain more options, but think more about choices.
Sure a couple of attacks may not work well. They will be used for KOs.
L canceling may take away options but it gives us reasons to use other strategies. We may have lost the collage nearer to home, but we now are considering the collages further away, which have more subjects. And as no one else is going to the old Collage anymore, no one has an advantage from going to the other collage (L-Canceling) so it is back to normal skill. This will never shorten the bridge between ignorance and advanced techs, but it will mean people have discovered an old playground.
Gimpy and other worshiped players have moved on from the "OMG, none of the old techs work!" stage, and all the so called "Hard cores" are busy dirtying their pants over the lack of L canceling.
I also think that the point that the TC is making is that we now have to think more. Not gain more options, but think more about choices.
Sure a couple of attacks may not work well. They will be used for KOs.
L canceling may take away options but it gives us reasons to use other strategies. We may have lost the collage nearer to home, but we now are considering the collages further away, which have more subjects. And as no one else is going to the old Collage anymore, no one has an advantage from going to the other collage (L-Canceling) so it is back to normal skill. This will never shorten the bridge between ignorance and advanced techs, but it will mean people have discovered an old playground.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
What the hell is this "collage" you speak of? I've never heard of anyone attending a "collage".
battousai555
Smash Ace
I think Sakurai should've just made 50 new advanced techs that require more technical skill than Guilty Gear Accent Core and more inputs per second than Starcraft. That would increase the gap between competitive players and casual players AND add more mind games!
Jem.
Smash Master
Not reading it all, game auto l cancels it for you now.
Mama
Smash Ace
Lol thats how you know they've got the pro mind set. They've moved on. Only reason I'm still posting so much is because the games not out yet >.>
Have you ever thought that just maybe, it is because you know nothing (or very little) or are just plain wrong?
Didn't you just spout off about Bowser and his playability while at the same time admitting to having never even watched more than one video of a competent Bowser player? Who does that?
Your defense? You based it off of your own experience and thoughts about the character. If you can't play him well, it must mean he can't be played well.
Instead of, you know, reading up about him and watching videos of competent players playing him before ruling him out as "unplayable".
1) The game is not a lot more balanced. Who told you this? In this game, you're either a good character or a bad one. There are hardly any inbetweens.
2) Bowser's Dair lagged too much for shieldpressure, ever. Even L-canceled, there was nothing you could do to prevent the shieldgrab.
3) Yes, Fox's dair has little lag. You can still shieldgrab it if you time it right. All of Bowser's aerials are now useless for shield pressure and approach. You call that balance and better?
L-canceling was a choice. Nobody forced anyone into L-canceling. I know tons of people who never employed it, were nonethewiser and still loved the game.
Melee was palayable for everyone. You just had a choice whether or not to take it to the next step.
Show me one reasonable player whose enjoyment of the game was ruined simply by the existance of, say, L-canceling (a player who was a casual player and only played against other casuals and who didn't constantly challenge elite players despite not devoting himself to himself becoming an elite player).
We used them in Melee. We explored them in Melee. They are very limited and some just suck. The game becomes a huge campfest, you become very predictable and there really isn't much you can do anymore to try to get an opening besides one really spaced hit to someone's shield and then you retreat.
So far, we haven't found anything new or any new ATs to aid us in approach that's remotely as useful as L-canceling.
It always did.
Not posting in the Brawl forums =/= "moved on" from mourning the loss of all ATs and restrictions of Brawl
Rash
Smash Ace
Negativity. Gotta love it
I still can't believe we're arguing about Brawl's lack of depth when the game still isn't even out in America.
This thread would make a lot more sense if it was in February 2009, not February 2008.
I still can't believe we're arguing about Brawl's lack of depth when the game still isn't even out in America.
This thread would make a lot more sense if it was in February 2009, not February 2008.
Dream Chaser
Smash Journeyman
I dont see how anyone can comment on balance, positively or negatively at this stage. I havnt even played it. Chances are most people on here havnt either yet.
We probably wont know this for a while.
We probably wont know this for a while.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
(Yuna's post)
^I really think you're still thinking too heavily in terms of Melee. The fact alone that Brawl feels different means you can't play it the same way.
And remember those 'inferior' Melee techs? They were inferior because the 'better' techs (L-cancelling/wavedashing) were around. With no 'superior' techs around these 'inferior' techs are no longer the same rubbish they were--considering this is a different game. And refresh my memory--how come aerials are the ONLY way to approach?
And even if people know little/nothing about the tourney scene, if they're not trolls you could be less condescending about it. This is why the pros get attacked and idiotic casual elitists exists--they're trying to attack an attitude rather than the way things are.
^I really think you're still thinking too heavily in terms of Melee. The fact alone that Brawl feels different means you can't play it the same way.
And remember those 'inferior' Melee techs? They were inferior because the 'better' techs (L-cancelling/wavedashing) were around. With no 'superior' techs around these 'inferior' techs are no longer the same rubbish they were--considering this is a different game. And refresh my memory--how come aerials are the ONLY way to approach?
And even if people know little/nothing about the tourney scene, if they're not trolls you could be less condescending about it. This is why the pros get attacked and idiotic casual elitists exists--they're trying to attack an attitude rather than the way things are.
You don't get it. The inferior techs are inferior because they're so limited. They're often high-risk/low gain or just a one-hit-jab. No shield-pressure or mixupping can be gotten from them (at least not much). The tactic of "Rolling like you're mad" is also just asking for a punish.
Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 is a competitive game. It's nowhere as deep as Melee, but it has an American tourney scene. In it, there are preset string with which you can pressure people's shields. Some people can't pressure well, some can. There are several ways to counter said pressure.
When Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX came, all pressure became impossible because all strings would become unsafe two hits into them. The game devolved into poking and running or poking and stopping. The game simply devolved and nobody liked it. They stuck with Melee.
You cannot have a fighting game where you can hardly approach, pressure or mixup. Because that's not a game! That's camping and hoping your opponent screws up so cataclysmically they leave themselves wide open.
All in all, they weren't just inferior because they were worse than L-canceling, they were also just bad to mediocre in general. And now we're stuck with them as the only options.
Aerials aren't the only way to approach, it's just that they're the best. Let's see what you have on the ground:
* Dashgrab - Spam it and you'll get grabbed/hit in response
* Dashattack - Shielded dashattack = instant upsmash out of shield, shieldhopped nair or a good old shieldgrab
* Dash forward, dash cancel and tilt/smash = Not possible anymore because there is no dash cancel. Now, you have to dash forward, suffer the cooldown of the staggering animation and then start tilting/spasmhing. If you rely on this, say hello to shieldhopped aerials. Also, most spammings of tilts can be punished by shieldhopped aerials.
* Dash forward, jump cancel, upsmash = Still possible, but it's not shieldpressure or much of an approach, you get one hit in. And if you're facing Marth, you'll eat a fair
* Roll through them - Any number of punishes if you rely on that as an approach.
Aerial approach > Ground approach. Unless you're, say, Falco (but he can't SHL anymore, so meh on him).
Your options for approach on the ground are very limited. Especially now that dash cancel is out.
I'm condescending also to idiots who argue as if they know the competitive scene or the game they're arguing about without having even watched videos of it. Because that's like me arguing about American football.
Knight-errant
Smash Apprentice
Totally agree.
Falco&Victory
Smash Champion
Falco can SHL kinda well, barely enough for an approach
"Once you learn to l-cancel, there's no reason not to do it"
They should remove recovering too. Oh, and teching.
"Once you learn to l-cancel, there's no reason not to do it"
They should remove recovering too. Oh, and teching.
Kips
Smash Ace
A game, to have a competitive scene, requires several levels of gameplay. These are- Casual, Advanced and Tech-Advanced. Remove the tech skills and you are left with a simple button masher. However, I still approve the removal of advanced techs as long as he has put in some new tricks to find.
So much truth. In addition, they should remove the ability to hit people as well. I mean, there's no reason not to hit people to knock them out.