The lack of l canceling is not a bad thing.

[Nuvia]

LOL then why are we still posting in this thread??

People like to argue lots.

 

[mario-man]

I guess so lol

*unsubscribes*

 

[staindgrey]

You know, for all of the throwing around of the word "competitive", competitors on here sure are a bunch of whiney little b!tches. You know what competitors do? They find new ways to win. No wavedashing? Try rolling like crazy. Try side-steps during multiple attacks to vary your approach. Try using the hardly-mentioned new and improved air dodge, complete with multiple dodges in one jump. Rely more on running, then shielding, rolling, or dodging right as you come up to an attacking opponent. Pile up damage then keep them airborne- since the game is more "floaty", this seems ideal. No l-cancelling? Then find new techniques! It's a new game, new ways to win come included![/qute]
1) Rolling like crazy = Bad, bad, bad tactic. You know that existed in Melee, right? You know what happened to people who rolled like crazy? That's right, Destroyed.
2) I think you're talking about spotdodging. And you know that existed in Melee as well, right? Good players won't fall for spotdodging. They'll space, time and shield-pressure so you'll get hit for constantly spot-dodging.
3) You do realize the airdodge has lag, right? If they do a multi-hit attack or two quick consecutive attacks, you will get hit. Also, you cannot airdodge twice in quick successions. There's a window in place during which you cannot airdodge after an airdodge.
4) We ran a lot in Melee. We still can. The lack of wavedashing is not all about movement. It's also about options out of shield and ways to punish smashes on your shield. Fox can now spam Upsmash all day without fearing any kind of reprisal unless he's facing Marth (shieldhopped Fair).
5) Did you know, this game has less hitstun? Most moves are also weaker, meaning that even if you hit them, they'll be able to DI away and move before you can hit them again. Heck, most of the time, they can move in time to prevent combos even without DI:ing away.

All of the things you mentioned existed in Melee. And all of them are mediocre to useless. A lot of them are unsafe and will most likely earn you a punish. Running towards your opponent and then rolling through them is not a valid approach. Even if they were shielding, all they'd have to do would be to shieldhop a dair or something.


Did you know, some of us have played the game? And explored its options? There are almost no new techniques, especially not techniques that can be used for approaching (of which there are none). All we have are the old techniques and options, only much less of them.


We cannot discuss the game on the assumption that a whole slew of ATs will be found later. We can only discuss what we know so far. I'm so sick and tired of people saying "Stop talking about it! It's only been out for so long!". Then why are you even here if you don't wanna discuss the game?!

And trust me, it's been out for two weeks getting tested by countless competitive players who've been turning it upside down looking for new advanced techniques. They've removed the majority of the old ones. I doubt they put in a slew of new ones (especially since very few have been discovered).


Bowser's infinite jump has limited use, can only be done through actually landing inbetween each "infinite jump", can only be used to cancel the Koopa Klaw.

Also, in Melee we could use aerials to shield pressure and approach. We no longer can. This thread is about discussing whether or not the lack of L-canceling is giving us more options. According to you, it's not. We're now, apparently, limited to poking with ground moves.

In order to get them into the air first, you have to hit them with something. How often can you hit someone with a smash now that there's no wavedashing or even dash canceling? Run up, lag as you stop running and then smash, hoping to hit? Dashattack (shieldgrab)?

At least in Melee, we could approach with aerials as well.

You completely missed the point of my post, which I expected. I'm not really sure why I'm still trying, since both of us will continue to think we're right and the other is a 'tard. But I'll continue anyway.

Yes, I listed old Melee strategies, most of which paled in comparison to wavedashing and continuously l-cancelling. But, guess what? You don't have those anymore in this game. That is a fact. So, instead of whining (yes, I'm using the word because that's what it sounds like to me), find new ways to win! You don't have the old ways because they were part of an old game. A new game requires new ways to win. Have you tried using SSB64 techniques in Melee? They suck. Melee was a whole new game, just as Brawl is, in its own right, a whole new game. B!tching about how it's different does absolutely nothing for you. What I listed were alternatives in Melee, because no, I have yet to play Brawl because I have $25 in my bank account- not even close to enough luxury to waste my money on an imported Wii and game so I can play it a little ahead of time. And I know people are picking this thing apart, but the facts are still facts- they've had the game for TWO WEEKS.

TWO WEEKS. That's it. They may be searching, but it's hard to find something when you don't know what it is yet. We'll find new ways, trust me. But not in two weeks. Get a grip.

Now, if you really do see yourself as a competitor, I don't see how you could pass up a chance to try and master a new game's mechanics and 'own all the n00bs' sooner than anyone else. The fact that there's this brand new game with brand new ways to play should intrigue you if anything. But, if you want to stick with the exact same game, stick with Melee. Seriously. People wanted a new game, they got it, and now they ***** that it's new. I, for one, love the fact that it's different. It's a whole new start, and I can't wait to get my hands on it.

One last comment: On the DESTROYED part... Yes, they did, when facing someone using wavedashing. Have you watched competitors that don't wavedash? Those matches become rolling frenzies, each playing the other out waiting for them to make a mistake. You'll probably mock me, but I don't really care; I don't even know you. But these can be just as intense as the "professional" matches. True, when pitted against one another, wavedashing will win, but the lack of wavedashing gives the rollers of Melee a starting advantage. Guess there's a new learning curve.

Oh, and thanks for trying to insult my intelligence with the "you know that existed in Melee, right?" comments. Very classy. Since I knew they existed and am posting on a fvcking Smash Bros. message board, I'm sure it was an honest question.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

lmao, you think that because of the lack of wavedashing, noobs will have a headstart in this game?

pfffff

 

[Revven]

Bowser's infinite jump has limited use, can only be done through actually landing inbetween each "infinite jump", can only be used to cancel the Koopa Klaw.

But, you could still technically use it for attacking with his laggiest aerial close to the ground, right? But, I do see your point with it. Though, it doesn't mean it isn't some hidden aerial AT, because it is but, only for one character with limited use. It is still an AT regardless, although, character specific.

Also, in Melee we could use aerials to shield pressure and approach. We no longer can. This thread is about discussing whether or not the lack of L-canceling is giving us more options. According to you, it's not. We're now, apparently, limited to poking with ground moves.

Yeah... that's pretty much it. I can't see how we could use any of the lag filled aerials on the ground at all. They'd pretty much have to be used high in the air, in which case, you have to get the person in the air as you mentioned in the following quote. Ooh, I did a nice transition to it!

In order to get them into the air first, you have to hit them with something. How often can you hit someone with a smash now that there's no wavedashing or even dash canceling? Run up, lag as you stop running and then smash, hoping to hit? Dashattack (shieldgrab)?

Who's to say you need to use a smash attack to get them into that high range for your lag filled move to finish them and not suffer? For example, Fox's, Falco's, and Wolf's utilts all knock them pretty high in the air even when they're at 60%. I've seen it and it's how Falco is able to get in his fair and nair in without suffering punishment from lag. In order to land the utilt, my approach in Brawl would be one of two things. Fake someone out into thinking I'll be the one to attack first (making them attack and in turn leaving them open) or roll backwards across the stage with some jumps added in to mind gamez0rz a bit (making them think I'll do an aerial) land behind or in front of and if they're shielding I'll just grab and depending on which side of the stage I'm on I'd throw them the opposite way, utilt, and then combo OR I could just throw them up and do the finishing blow if their percentage is high enough.

There's still some approach, you just need to think about it more than you do with wavedashing (because wavedashing gave you all that speed to get over there you had almost no worries about being hit during your approach). Yes, you now lack approach Melee-style in Brawl, but now you have to approach Brawl-style. It's limited and will be until something new is found, I'll agree to that. It doesn't mean though you can't approach them at all as you're making it sound. Because they certainly won't approach you and then it becomes a stalemate. And, Brawl isn't about stalemates!

At least in Melee, we could approach with aerials as well.

And you still can in Brawl, you just need to find which aerials to approach with. Ganon's uair is his aerial to approach with. Sonic's nair and bair are his aerials to approach with (hell he even has a spindash to approach with!) Bowser's fair is his aerial to approach with (it has minimal lag). The thing is, moves that were used to approach with before can't be used that way which is what I was saying earlier. They're meant to be used when you're sure you won't suffer from punishment, when your opponent is in the high percentages when they get knocked so far away that the lag doesn't matter at all because by the time they get back you're ready to edgeguard or go out there and flipping kill them with a meteor or bair. They have limited use earlier on in the match, but, in the end of it they are more useful. It balances them out in a sense.

I'm not asking you to agree, I'm just speaking my mind really. I see where you're coming from though. The only bad part for me is I've yet to play Brawl where as you have so...

Just wanted to share what I thought, don't kill me!

 

[staindgrey]

lmao, you think that because of the lack of wavedashing, noobs will have a headstart in this game?

pfffff

If that was directed at me, my answer is no. I said competitors- note: not noobs- that didn't wavedash- or, more directly, competitors that didn't like using advanced techs, such as myself. Since those techs are gone, the tech users have to adjust to the normal style of playing, which the other competitors- note again: NOT noobs- have been using and perfecting for the past 6 years. Yes, that does give them an advantage for now, but not for long as everyone will be addicted and play the game to death once they get it. I was simply saying that right when the game comes out, they'll have a *slight* advantage over someone that is used to wavedashing and the like.

 

[staindgrey]

But, you could still technically use it for attacking with his laggiest aerial close to the ground, right? But, I do see your point with it. Though, it doesn't mean it isn't some hidden aerial AT, because it is but, only for one character with limited use. It is still an AT regardless, although, character specific.



Yeah... that's pretty much it. I can't see how we could use any of the lag filled aerials on the ground at all. They'd pretty much have to be used high in the air, in which case, you have to get the person in the air as you mentioned in the following quote. Ooh, I did a nice transition to it!



Who's to say you need to use a smash attack to get them into that high range for your lag filled move to finish them and not suffer? For example, Fox's, Falco's, and Wolf's utilts all knock them pretty high in the air even when they're at 60%. I've seen it and it's how Falco is able to get in his fair and nair in without suffering punishment from lag. In order to land the utilt, my approach in Brawl would be one of two things. Fake someone out into thinking I'll be the one to attack first (making them attack and in turn leaving them open) or roll backwards across the stage with some jumps added in to mind gamez0rz a bit (making them think I'll do an aerial) land behind or in front of and if they're shielding I'll just grab and depending on which side of the stage I'm on I'd throw them the opposite way, utilt, and then combo OR I could just throw them up and do the finishing blow if their percentage is high enough.

There's still some approach, you just need to think about it more than you do with wavedashing (because wavedashing gave you all that speed to get over there you had almost no worries about being hit during your approach). Yes, you now lack approach Melee-style in Brawl, but now you have to approach Brawl-style. It's limited and will be until something new is found, I'll agree to that. It doesn't mean though you can't approach them at all as you're making it sound. Because they certainly won't approach you and then it becomes a stalemate. And, Brawl isn't about stalemates!



And you still can in Brawl, you just need to find which aerials to approach with. Ganon's uair is his aerial to approach with. Sonic's nair and bair are his aerials to approach with (hell he even has a spindash to approach with!) Bowser's fair is his aerial to approach with (it has minimal lag). The thing is, moves that were used to approach with before can't be used that way which is what I was saying earlier. They're meant to be used when you're sure you won't suffer from punishment, when your opponent is in the high percentages when they get knocked so far away that the lag doesn't matter at all because by the time they get back you're ready to edgeguard or go out there and flipping kill them with a meteor or bair. They have limited use earlier on in the match, but, in the end of it they are more useful. It balances them out in a sense.

I'm not asking you to agree, I'm just speaking my mind really. I see where you're coming from though. The only bad part for me is I've yet to play Brawl where as you have so...

Just wanted to share what I thought, don't kill me!

I like you. Let's be friends.

 

[NOT Sliq]

Yes, I listed old Melee strategies, most of which paled in comparison to wavedashing and continuously l-cancelling. But, guess what? You don't have those anymore in this game. That is a fact. So, instead of whining (yes, I'm using the word because that's what it sounds like to me), find new ways to win! You don't have the old ways because they were part of an old game. A new game requires new ways to win. Have you tried using SSB64 techniques in Melee? They suck. Melee was a whole new game, just as Brawl is, in its own right, a whole new game. B!tching about how it's different does absolutely nothing for you. What I listed were alternatives in Melee, because no, I have yet to play Brawl because I have $25 in my bank account- not even close to enough luxury to waste my money on an imported Wii and game so I can play it a little ahead of time. And I know people are picking this thing apart, but the facts are still facts- they've had the game for TWO WEEKS.

The thing is, if the "new way" to win is far less skill dependant and engaging, what you have on your hands is an inferior product.

It is like updating from Windows XP to Vista. If Vista isn't better, than why bother? New doesn't mean better, nor does it mean worse. HOWEVER, from what I have seen so far, Brawl is not better than Melee, from a competitive standpoint. THAT'S THE POINT.

Also, dashdancing and l-canceling are in both Smash 64 and Melee, and they are both effective. I fail to see how your analogy helps your point.

TWO WEEKS. That's it. They may be searching, but it's hard to find something when you don't know what it is yet. We'll find new ways, trust me. But not in two weeks. Get a grip.

And what if we don't? What if some valiant knight doesn't ride down from the heavens on his magical unicorn, leaving a rainbow trail, and shower us with candy and advanced techniques? What then? You know what happens? The Brawl competitive scene dies because it is overly monotonous, where every match is a Jiggs ditto, constantly spacing until someone can land a 2 hit combo and eventually KO their opponent at 180% after 5 minutes.

Now, if you really do see yourself as a competitor, I don't see how you could pass up a chance to try and master a new game's mechanics and 'own all the n00bs' sooner than anyone else. The fact that there's this brand new game with brand new ways to play should intrigue you if anything. But, if you want to stick with the exact same game, stick with Melee. Seriously. People wanted a new game, they got it, and now they ***** that it's new. I, for one, love the fact that it's different. It's a whole new start, and I can't wait to get my hands on it.

Ok, but once again, if the new way isn't better than the old way, or is in fact worse (i.e. lack of depth, slow pacing, etc.), then you have yourself an INFERIOR product.

It is like going from playing no limit Texas Hold'em to Uno.

One last comment: On the DESTROYED part... Yes, they did, when facing someone using wavedashing. Have you watched competitors that don't wavedash? Those matches become rolling frenzies, each playing the other out waiting for them to make a mistake. You'll probably mock me, but I don't really care; I don't even know you. But these can be just as intense as the "professional" matches. True, when pitted against one another, wavedashing will win, but the lack of wavedashing gives the rollers of Melee a starting advantage. Guess there's a new learning curve.

Yeah, if roll spamming becomes a legit tactic, then the learning curve for winning goes WAY THE **** DOWN. The steeper the learning curve, the deeper the mechanic. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. If anyone can pick up a controller, put in minimal effort, and beat someone who has practiced a lot, either you have yourself a prodigy, or a retardedly uncompetitive game.

Oh, and thanks for trying to insult my intelligence with the "you know that existed in Melee, right?" comments. Very classy. Since I knew they existed and am posting on a fvcking Smash Bros. message board, I'm sure it was an honest question.

As it stands now, there aren't really an universal advanced techniques in Brawl that didn't exist in Melee, with the exception of the turn around grab, which could still be accomplished by DD'ing or even dash canceling, so in essence, Brawl hasn't ADDED anything. Only removed things and changed things.

And some of the stuff they did add reduced depth. Auto snap recoveries? WTF. Who needs skill to sweet spot when it is done for you?

Brawl is basically Melee with training wheels that can't be removed.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Translation... "I'm bad at Melee."

Not even fool. From all of the videos of Brawl I've watched, and I've seen dozens, a lack of a L-cancel does not seem to be a big deal. There are still plenty of good aerial moves to be used. You just have to be more conscious about move selection. The horror!

 

[Endless Nightmares]

^^^ No Johns.

 

[Brightside6382]

ohhh man. I thought that was Sliq for a second but realized the "NOT" infront of his name. That woulda been a stupid mistake...

 

[killbeast301]

I'll present my argument one last time, and if you don't get it then I don't feel like spending the effort anymore.

There are other approaches you can use. You don't have to shffl arials to approach. You can think of ways to get in there using other methods. Those methods may end up leading to other possibilities we haven't even thought of yet, leading to more options.

Look at it this way,

Someone says they have a red pill and a blue pill, and gives you the option to take either one. You take the red pill.

Someone says they have a red pill and a blue pill, and gives you the option to take the blue pill or none at all. You beat the guy up to get the red pill, and find something else you want.

 

[NOT Sliq]

I'll present my argument one last time, and if you don't get it then I don't feel like spending the effort anymore.

There are other approaches you can use. You don't have to shffl arials to approach. You can think of ways to get in there using other methods. Those methods may end up leading to other possibilities we haven't even thought of yet, leading to more options.

The thing is, there aren't NEW approached. So far, all of the approaches in Brawl existed in Melee, but weren't used because they were inferior to other approaches.

There are no means to "trick" your opponent anymore. You can run in and WD back. You can't DD. You can waveland across platforms. There are no tricks, just you advancing and trying to space so you can hit them and they can't hit you.

 

[Yuna]

No, you do not have the same reliable easy-to-do approach. You now have to use other moves and mindgames. No, I have not figured out any specific ways to set up arials in a situations like this. That's the whole point of a mindgame though isn't it? If you're predictable and easy to figure out then it doesn't work.

1) It's not "easy to do"
2) It's not always "the same" because then it would be predictable and easily punished.
3) What players have you been playing if all they did was approach in the exact same way?

Yes, it does make you develop strategies. If you can't just rush in and use the arial, then find a way to get one in.

You don't think alternative strategies were developed in Melee? You really think we spent 6+ years playing Melee and never once even tried to develop any of the strategies you've already mentioned or some that you haven't (alternatives to L-Canceled aerials)?

We did. And you know what the results were? Bad approaches. Unsafe, predictable, high-risk-low-gain. The game has basically devolved into a poking game and camping game.

Or develop ways to get that arial in safely, so that you don't need to l-cancel. And why do you mention the choice to l-cancel? That was one of the OP's main points, there is zero gain from choosing not to l-cancel.

* We tried. We did. They were bad.
* The OP is arguing finding out new ways to approach as if the only differences were a lack of L-canceling. Unless new techniques are discovered, no new viable approaches will be developed. Because we won't have anything new to work with! We'll be stuck with what we already had and what we already developed!
* There is zero gain to choose to not L-cancel if you approached with an aerial. But you could still choose any of the other approaches available, a lot of which people have already suggested in this thread as if they were "new".
* No new approaches have been discovered so far. And unless we discover new ATs, no new approaches will be developed.
* Logic. Try using it.

then approach on the ground, and find a way to get the arial in without the opponents sheild up, to that the opponent is stunned, and knocked back far enough that you can recover from the lag in time. besides, with the game as floaty as it is, could you land and recover from the lag in time to avoid the sheildgrab with l-canceling?

* Ground approaches are heavily limited because of the game engine. No Dash Cancel means it's very hard to dash up and smash/tilt as an approach. Dashattack is just as unsafe as ever. Most ground moves are so very weak they're unsafe on hit, you opponent can Fair/Nair you.
* There's almost no shieldknockback on Aerials. You can't knock them back far enough. Even if you could, if your aerial is slow and unsafe, they can still shieldhop into Fair/Bair/Nair. Very useful technique, you should try it.
* Umm... since the game is more floaty, you take longer to land during an aerial. Which means you lag for longer.
* Your only viable and reliable option is to aerial them with moves that have so much range they can't shieldgrab you.
* And this doesn't change the fact that all of these options already existed in Melee. The topic at hand is "The lack of L-canceling gives the game more depth because it'll allow us to discover new tactics". But it won't. Melee has been played for 6+ years. We discovered pretty much all we could about it, including all kinds of approaches. Removing L-canceling without adding new techniques which helps approach won't magically give us new ways to approach! It'll just force us into using one of the other ways to approach.

Sure, we might develop one of the "old" ways. But it won't be new. There's nothing new to be gotten if nothing new is introduced!

I'm not saying it's impossible to find new ways to approach. But it would require use to discover new advanced techniques (or at least exploits) and then we'd rely on those instead of L-canceling! We cannot magically conjure up new ways if there are none to be had.

From what we know so far, there's nothing new in ways of approach (in general). However, certain people (hum, hum) are talking as if the removal of L-canceling guarantees us finding new approaches even if no new techniques to aid approach exist, as if the removal of L-canceling itself would magically give us new ways of approaching... which is logically impossible.

The lack of L-canceling won't help with depth in any way. It'll just restrict the depth and options. We need to find out new ATs. If we discover new ATs, then we'll have new ATs to cling to for approaches. If we don't, we'll have crappy approaches. This is what I've been saying since the very beginning.

 

[Kips]

The removal of the L-Cancel makes aerial approach harder and we all know that ground approach is a painful process akin to trench fighting in World War Two. Frankly said, it makes the game a bit more complex approachwise while removing button input complexity.

TL;DR- WE TRADED TEH TECH IN FOR TEH MINDGAMES, SON.

 

[super-7]

This is where the OP's argument is flawed. True, L-canceling does not add strategic depth to the game, but it does make more attacks usable, more combos doable, more characters viable, etc. I'm not sad to see L-canceling go, since hopefully it will allow less technically advanced players to do well as long as they are smart players, but it certainly added tremendous depth to melee.

it did also allow people to use heavier characters like ganon/bowser without them getting punished by the lag in there moves.. in brawl ganon looks like he will have a serious problem.. l cancelling is needed in this game it really balances each character. u can flame
me for this but seriously if there was no l canceling characters like ganon would be punished
or a character like link, look how much lag there was in his dair!

 

[D20]

The removal of the L-Cancel makes aerial approach harder and we all know that ground approach is a painful process akin to trench fighting in World War Two. Frankly said, it makes the game a bit more complex approachwise while removing button input complexity.

TL;DR- WE TRADED TEH TECH IN FOR TEH MINDGAMES, SON.

You're right... except trench warefare was from World War I.

 

[Yuna]

There are other approaches you can use. You don't have to shffl arials to approach. You can think of ways to get in there using other methods. Those methods may end up leading to other possibilities we haven't even thought of yet, leading to more options.

Yeah, they all existed in Melee... with L-canceling. We just chose not to use them because L-canceling was better. Now we're forced into using them. Doesn't make them new in any way.

Someone says they have a red pill and a blue pill, and gives you the option to take either one. You take the red pill.

Someone says they have a red pill and a blue pill, and gives you the option to take the blue pill or none at all. You are forced into taking the blue pill and try to dig around for other pills. So far, you've found none.

I corrected it for you.

 

[webrunner]

Don't most aerialsl? Wouldn't that basically mean most things are auto L-cancelled? so any strategy that relied on it before now only doesn't for other reasons, not for lack of l-cancelling since the lag would be like if you had L-Cancelled anyway?

 

[WastingPenguins]

Ganon's uair is his aerial to approach with.

Approach with his... up... air? I know what you're thinking, its hitbox does extend a bit forward, and it can be a nice surprise approach if your opponent is jumping around a lot, but in 9/10 situations it's not gonna happen.

In any case, even THAT move, by far Ganon's quickest and least laggy air, still has noticeable lag. It just seems super quick compared to his other absurdly slow aerials.

 

[NOT Sliq]

The removal of the L-Cancel makes aerial approach harder and we all know that ground approach is a painful process akin to trench fighting in World War Two. Frankly said, it makes the game a bit more complex approachwise while removing button input complexity.

TL;DR- WE TRADED TEH TECH IN FOR TEH MINDGAMES, SON.

Funny thing is, there really aren't any tricks to do in Brawl. You can't fool your opponent anymore because they have limited the approach options severely. All you can do is advance and space. There isn't anything you can do to confuse your opponent or trick them. You walk up to them and hit them.

 

[wakka444]

1) It's not "easy to do"
2) It's not always "the same" because then it would be predictable and easily punished.
3) What players have you been playing if all they did was approach in the exact same way?

i counted 20 nair approaches out of 35ish aerials http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z4KIm3unNQk
dont get me wrong pc lost this match but he approached about the same everytime and i hear he wins a lot but im sure by your logic had he done a few different aerial approaches hed win more like this match and he couldnt have done anything with the l-cancel bc he had the option to not get shieldgrabbed....no wait bc his momentum pushed him into safety weird how it makes little difference in a bigger picture, sorry i didnt read your whole post i probably wouldve made more satiracle comments but this is a neverending argument where the more stubborn wins. grats to you^^;;

 

[Yuna]

Don't most aerialsl? Wouldn't that basically mean most things are auto L-cancelled? so any strategy that relied on it before now only doesn't for other reasons, not for lack of l-cancelling since the lag would be like if you had L-Cancelled anyway?

The Auto-Cancel does not work that way.

 

[Kips]

Oops, after a history essay my brain is scrambled. Sorry abou the mix-up there.

And yes, approach has been dumbed down to where a 1st grader picks up a controller and has a perfect approach. With 'Stale Move Negation' it becomes impossible to prevent other peoples approaches effectively while the removal of SHFFL'ing and such makes approaching a real pain. In short-

We lost our approach options AND our approach LIMITING options. Oof.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

What I would have liked to see is instead of removing lcancelling, if they made it more difficult to do. If it required single frame accuracy, then average players would miss lcancels way more, opening up more opportunities to punish. But they should have also made lcancelling remove lag entirely, if they were to make it more difficult.

Or, if they made lcancelling something that'd give you a reason not to do it some of the time, and a reason to do it other parts of the time. For example, if it removed landing lag, but increased both damage and cool down lag of your next move, it'd be a way to combo into a finisher, but some of the time you wouldn't approach that way because your next attack would be punishable. That would have also given it much more depth.

It is looking like this game will be played more defensively than melee. This isn't entirely a bad thing, though.

 

[killbeast301]

Yeah, they all existed in Melee... with L-canceling. We just chose not to use them because L-canceling was better. Now we're forced into using them. Doesn't make them new in any way.


I corrected it for you.

Maybe we won't find anything new, maybe we will. Maybe the a-hole immitating the Matrix in real life has a gun on him and shoots you when you try to get another pill. I just don't think we can jump to conclusions just yet. I don't think Sakurai would work this hard at making the game if there wasn't a way to take the game to the next level, like we did with melee

 

[staindgrey]

The thing is, if the "new way" to win is far less skill dependant and engaging, what you have on your hands is an inferior product.

It is like updating from Windows XP to Vista. If Vista isn't better, than why bother? New doesn't mean better, nor does it mean worse. HOWEVER, from what I have seen so far, Brawl is not better than Melee, from a competitive standpoint. THAT'S THE POINT.

From a competitive standpoint? I'll call it professional, though I despise the use of the word, because I'm also looking at it from a competitive standpoint. But the way I compete is not with the wavedashes and advanced tech you use. You view the new game as inferior because it lacks these, and that's your point. I get it. I really do. What I'm saying is that if you stop looking at this game through that very limited scope, you could possibly view this as a huge upgrade- which I do. Give the game more than two weeks before you bash it.

As far as the "skill dependent" comment, who's to say it's not skill dependent? It simply takes new skills, as a new game should. New techniques, new types of combos, a new need for choosing appropriate moves at the right times, and mastering the entire moveset of your main instead of knowing a few good moves and using them again and again... from the way I look at it, this is a much more skill-dependent game. You may not need to learn the perfect button configuration to wavedash and l-cancel and the like, but you need to know your character's strengths, weaknesses, etc. much more for this game, in my opinion.

Also, dashdancing and l-canceling are in both Smash 64 and Melee, and they are both effective. I fail to see how your analogy helps your point.

Are you honestly trying to tell me 64 and Melee can be played the same way? Melee is 100x faster, along with airdodging, extra forward moves, different physics mechanics, that wavedashing thing I keep bringing up, etc. I fail to see how dashdancing and l-canceling proves anything.

And what if we don't? What if some valiant knight doesn't ride down from the heavens on his magical unicorn, leaving a rainbow trail, and shower us with candy and advanced techniques? What then? You know what happens? The Brawl competitive scene dies because it is overly monotonous, where every match is a Jiggs ditto, constantly spacing until someone can land a 2 hit combo and eventually KO their opponent at 180% after 5 minutes.

Again, completely missing the point. 1) combos and stuff for each character will always be found. What I'm saying is this: You will find new ways to win in a new game. It may not be as fast-paced, but that's where more strategy comes in. Now, you can't simply glide over and chain grab them then aerial them to death- you have to pick from ALL your moves, not just a few of the most effective onces, and you have to use them at the appropriate times. Use small, quick attacks to pile up damage, while avoiding the opponent's same. As their damage gets higher, try attacks with more knockback to get them either off the edge or in the air. Once there, you can try the kill attacks. You can't spam aerials anymore- a trait I actually enjoy- so find a different way to utilize the techniques already given to you. If you need a glitch and a few effective moves to be competitive, then you're missing out on a lot more depth in the game. Limiting yourself to certain techniques is not "depth". "Depth" means that when you change characters, there is now a whole new way to approach, which is what Brawl has. Good luck playing with Marth then switching to Bowser. With Melee, if you knew how to wavedash with each and spam aerials, it was much easier. Now, you have to master a whole new way to play with each character and use their strengths with smart move choices so you don't leave yourself open. I like that.

Ok, but once again, if the new way isn't better than the old way, or is in fact worse (i.e. lack of depth, slow pacing, etc.), then you have yourself an INFERIOR product.

All in the eyes of the beholder. I see Brawl as a HUGE upgrade. Why? Because I care about more than one on one battles on FD without items. I love the 41 new levels, 35 characters, sweet 1P and many, MANY new items. I like items. So kill me. This game is a huge upgrade in every aspect, except for the few points that you are obsessing with that have to deal only with the extremely competitive and self-proclaimed professional scene, which also happens to be a big part of the Smash World Forums. But it's by far inferior to the major base that is Brawl's players. This game won't die anytime soon, if at all. You'll laugh because your scope is so small, but I really don't care if you ever play this game. I'll be playing it, and I'll have a hard time downgrading to Melee afterwards, I'm sure.

Yeah, if roll spamming becomes a legit tactic, then the learning curve for winning goes WAY THE **** DOWN. The steeper the learning curve, the deeper the mechanic. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. If anyone can pick up a controller, put in minimal effort, and beat someone who has practiced a lot, either you have yourself a prodigy, or a retardedly uncompetitive game.

IF everyone uses rolling, there will be those that have mastered it, AND those that just know what it is. You cannot simply "pick up a controller" and know how to roll with the best. Ask anyone who plays casually against competitive players who only roll- there's a big difference. Wavedashing may take a lot of practice to learn how to do correctly and casually, BUT once learned, it's not a 'strategy', it's just a new way of playing. That's what created the two different levels of smashers- 'pros' and 'noobs'- and Sakurai tried to get rid of the barrier between the two, while still makign the game competitive. If one would look at the game without the small scope of how to play Melee-style, he would realize that this is still a very, very competitive game, and it always will be. That's Smash Bros. You can disagree, since I know you will, but you won't convince me otherwise while I'm busy *competing* to win.

As it stands now, there aren't really an universal advanced techniques in Brawl that didn't exist in Melee, with the exception of the turn around grab, which could still be accomplished by DD'ing or even dash canceling, so in essence, Brawl hasn't ADDED anything. Only removed things and changed things.

Hmm... Very interesting point. And though this is true because of the lack of glitches formerly found in Melee, here's a different way to look at it since I assume you haven't yet... Did you use all the different options of attack in Melee? All those ones that were there and still are there? Did you use every move of every character? Did you find ways to use the moves that weren't good for professional, high-paced aerial play, but are actually good in the style of play used in Brawl and Melee w/o the advanced tech? If you didn't, then this is, in essence, a brand new experience, which so far you seem to hate. I have been using said techniques, but I still find much more depth in this game with the new characters and whole new movesets to explore. Sonic? Olimar? Diddy? Pit? The list goes on- It'll be a long time until I've figured out how to use every character efficiently, particularly with the way Brawl is set up. That's how I like it- a lot more strategy behind it, and a lot less thorough knowledge and spamming of glitches.

And some of the stuff they did add reduced depth. Auto snap recoveries? WTF. Who needs skill to sweet spot when it is done for you?

Brawl is basically Melee with training wheels that can't be removed.

Another interesting point I'd like to counter. With Link, this is true, as you now can't attack to the bottom of a stage strategically. But, with all the new characters that depend on this attack to get back- such as Olimar and ZSS- it's no longer just an alternative strategy- it's the only way to survive. If they get spiked down, without the auto sweetspot to aim upwards, they're doomed no matter what. You can't expect them to always get lined up with the sweet spot to get back. That would be impossible, and the characters would be "bottom tier" because of this huge difficiency. Sakurai and his group were smart to add this in for their purpose, though perhaps they could have kept Link's un-automatic, I can agree with that.

But did you take into account the wall-clings used by some characters? That's basically the same thing, and can be used as- gasp- another strategy. There WILL be new strategies. Saying there will be none because they're different than the old ones is either ignorant or apathetic. I don't know which is the case with your argument, but I also don't care.

 

[NOT Sliq]

Maybe we won't find anything new, maybe we will. Maybe the a-hole immitating the Matrix in real life has a gun on him and shoots you when you try to get another pill. I just don't think we can jump to conclusions just yet. I don't think Sakurai would work this hard at making the game if there wasn't a way to take the game to the next level, like we did with melee

Sakurai is just a guy, not a God. It is painfully obvious from looking at the changes from Melee to Brawl that he wanted the game to be more accessible. Greater Accessibility = Less Depth, almost always.

If anyone can pick it up and master it with minimal effort, it is very accessible, but also not very deep.

Melee was perfect, because it was extremely accessible but also very deep, so you had the choice of whether or not to take it to the next level. It is looking like Brawl doesn't have the same level of depth.

 

[Yuna]

Maybe we won't find anything new, maybe we will. Maybe the a-hole immitating the Matrix in real life has a gun on him and shoots you when you try to get another pill. I just don't think we can jump to conclusions just yet. I don't think Sakurai would work this hard at making the game if there wasn't a way to take the game to the next level, like we did with melee

Yeah, but can you find a counter-argument to my counter-argument of the OP? Simply removing L-canceling has given the game zero extra depth, only detracted from it.

We cannot possibly find any new tactics and approaches unless we find new game mechanics and techniques first. Simply removing L-cancel will not magically make them appear.

 

[Yuna]

From a competitive standpoint? I'll call it professional, though I despise the use of the word, because I'm also looking at it from a competitive standpoint. But the way I compete is not with the wavedashes and advanced tech you use. You view the new game as inferior because it lacks these, and that's your point. I get it. I really do. What I'm saying is that if you stop looking at this game through that very limited scope, you could possibly view this as a huge upgrade- which I do. Give the game more than two weeks before you bash it.

How is it a huge upgrade from what we know so far (let's not speculate about the apparently infinite depth we're bound to stumble upon soon)? Tons of techniques which added depth and choice to the game have been removed in return for almost nothing.

As far as the "skill dependent" comment, who's to say it's not skill dependent? It simply takes new skills, as a new game should. New techniques, new types of combos, a new need for choosing appropriate moves at the right times, and mastering the entire moveset of your main instead of knowing a few good moves and using them again and again... from the way I look at it, this is a much more skill-dependent game. You may not need to learn the perfect button configuration to wavedash and l-cancel and the like, but you need to know your character's strengths, weaknesses, etc. much more for this game, in my opinion.

Since when was Melee about spamming the same moves and not learning to master the entire moveset of your main? The only reason why one would occasionally forsake certain moves like Peach's Up-Tilt was because they sucked. Other than that, you made pretty **** sure to master all of your moves and not spam the same moves over and over.

It's the same in Brawl. There are still moves you should use a lot and moves you should never use and moves you should use often. And the comboing is still the same, only more limited because of DI, freeze frames, reduced hitstun, etc.

64 -> Melee = Addition of tons of new techniques to make the game deeper and give the players more options
Melee -> Brawl = Removal of a ton of techniques in return for a meager amount of new techniques

And wow, the rest is a wall of text that's so flawed so I don't even feel like replying to it.

 

[Brenco55]

By makeing some forerly unusable arials (to laggy) usable by removing the lag depth is added.
you fail.

 

[Nuvia]

People sure like to argue around here.

 

[killbeast301]

Yeah, but can you find a counter-argument to my counter-argument of the OP? Simply removing L-canceling has given the game zero extra depth, only detracted from it.

We cannot possibly find any new tactics and approaches unless we find new game mechanics and techniques first. Simply removing L-cancel will not magically make them appear.

I never said it would make them magically appear. From the beginning I have said we would have to look for them (or at least I was thinking it). They may not be there, but Brawl is a new game, and there should be new techniques/tactics/glitches/exploits, and we may find them by looking for ways to stay safe while having to deal with lag. We will have to look for them, as, like you said, they will not magically appear.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

From a competitive standpoint? I'll call it professional, though I despise the use of the word, because I'm also looking at it from a competitive standpoint. But the way I compete is not with the wavedashes and advanced tech you use. You view the new game as inferior because it lacks these, and that's your point. I get it. I really do. What I'm saying is that if you stop looking at this game through that very limited scope, you could possibly view this as a huge upgrade- which I do. Give the game more than two weeks before you bash it.

As far as the "skill dependent" comment, who's to say it's not skill dependent? It simply takes new skills, as a new game should. New techniques, new types of combos, a new need for choosing appropriate moves at the right times, and mastering the entire moveset of your main instead of knowing a few good moves and using them again and again... from the way I look at it, this is a much more skill-dependent game. You may not need to learn the perfect button configuration to wavedash and l-cancel and the like, but you need to know your character's strengths, weaknesses, etc. much more for this game, in my opinion.



Are you honestly trying to tell me 64 and Melee can be played the same way? Melee is 100x faster, along with airdodging, extra forward moves, different physics mechanics, that wavedashing thing I keep bringing up, etc. I fail to see how dashdancing and l-canceling proves anything.



Again, completely missing the point. 1) combos and stuff for each character will always be found. What I'm saying is this: You will find new ways to win in a new game. It may not be as fast-paced, but that's where more strategy comes in. Now, you can't simply glide over and chain grab them then aerial them to death- you have to pick from ALL your moves, not just a few of the most effective onces, and you have to use them at the appropriate times. Use small, quick attacks to pile up damage, while avoiding the opponent's same. As their damage gets higher, try attacks with more knockback to get them either off the edge or in the air. Once there, you can try the kill attacks. You can't spam aerials anymore- a trait I actually enjoy- so find a different way to utilize the techniques already given to you. If you need a glitch and a few effective moves to be competitive, then you're missing out on a lot more depth in the game. Limiting yourself to certain techniques is not "depth". "Depth" means that when you change characters, there is now a whole new way to approach, which is what Brawl has. Good luck playing with Marth then switching to Bowser. With Melee, if you knew how to wavedash with each and spam aerials, it was much easier. Now, you have to master a whole new way to play with each character and use their strengths with smart move choices so you don't leave yourself open. I like that.



All in the eyes of the beholder. I see Brawl as a HUGE upgrade. Why? Because I care about more than one on one battles on FD without items. I love the 41 new levels, 35 characters, sweet 1P and many, MANY new items. I like items. So kill me. This game is a huge upgrade in every aspect, except for the few points that you are obsessing with that have to deal only with the extremely competitive and self-proclaimed professional scene, which also happens to be a big part of the Smash World Forums. But it's by far inferior to the major base that is Brawl's players. This game won't die anytime soon, if at all. You'll laugh because your scope is so small, but I really don't care if you ever play this game. I'll be playing it, and I'll have a hard time downgrading to Melee afterwards, I'm sure.



IF everyone uses rolling, there will be those that have mastered it, AND those that just know what it is. You cannot simply "pick up a controller" and know how to roll with the best. Ask anyone who plays casually against competitive players who only roll- there's a big difference. Wavedashing may take a lot of practice to learn how to do correctly and casually, BUT once learned, it's not a 'strategy', it's just a new way of playing. That's what created the two different levels of smashers- 'pros' and 'noobs'- and Sakurai tried to get rid of the barrier between the two, while still makign the game competitive. If one would look at the game without the small scope of how to play Melee-style, he would realize that this is still a very, very competitive game, and it always will be. That's Smash Bros. You can disagree, since I know you will, but you won't convince me otherwise while I'm busy *competing* to win.



Hmm... Very interesting point. And though this is true because of the lack of glitches formerly found in Melee, here's a different way to look at it since I assume you haven't yet... Did you use all the different options of attack in Melee? All those ones that were there and still are there? Did you use every move of every character? Did you find ways to use the moves that weren't good for professional, high-paced aerial play, but are actually good in the style of play used in Brawl and Melee w/o the advanced tech? If you didn't, then this is, in essence, a brand new experience, which so far you seem to hate. I have been using said techniques, but I still find much more depth in this game with the new characters and whole new movesets to explore. Sonic? Olimar? Diddy? Pit? The list goes on- It'll be a long time until I've figured out how to use every character efficiently, particularly with the way Brawl is set up. That's how I like it- a lot more strategy behind it, and a lot less thorough knowledge and spamming of glitches.



Another interesting point I'd like to counter. With Link, this is true, as you now can't attack to the bottom of a stage strategically. But, with all the new characters that depend on this attack to get back- such as Olimar and ZSS- it's no longer just an alternative strategy- it's the only way to survive. If they get spiked down, without the auto sweetspot to aim upwards, they're doomed no matter what. You can't expect them to always get lined up with the sweet spot to get back. That would be impossible, and the characters would be "bottom tier" because of this huge difficiency. Sakurai and his group were smart to add this in for their purpose, though perhaps they could have kept Link's un-automatic, I can agree with that.

But did you take into account the wall-clings used by some characters? That's basically the same thing, and can be used as- gasp- another strategy. There WILL be new strategies. Saying there will be none because they're different than the old ones is either ignorant or apathetic. I don't know which is the case with your argument, but I also don't care.

those characters that you mentioned with tether recoveries can miss the edge completely with it and it will still find the ledge. But the thing that will make them low tier is that if someone hangs on the ledge when they come to recover they cannot grab it. just thought i'd inform you cause you havent played yet or whatever you were saying my olimar dreams are ruined.....

oh and if you think that the way many pro's such as ken, M2king, and PC play are just "knowledge and spamming of glithces" then i hope one day you play one of these guys. Because im sure they could beat you without using one WD or L-cancel. The mindgames these guys have and what they can do is crazy.

Oh and P.S. I'm a peach player. I don't need no L-cancel or WD so im fine either way with or without.lol

 

[staindgrey]

those characters that you mentioned with tether recoveries can miss the edge completely with it and it will still find the ledge. But the thing that will make them low tier is that if someone hangs on the ledge when they come to recover they cannot grab it. just thought i'd inform you cause you havent played yet or whatever you were saying my olimar dreams are ruined.....

oh and if you think that the way many pro's such as ken, M2king, and PC play are just "knowledge and spamming of glithces" then i hope one day you play one of these guys. Because im sure they could beat you without using one WD or L-cancel. The mindgames these guys have and what they can do is crazy.

Oh and P.S. I'm a peach player. I don't need no L-cancel or WD so im fine either way with or without.lol

First off- thank you for stating your opinion without trying to make me sound inferior. I respect what you have to say now, unlike some other people on these boards.

Now, yes, I do know of that flaw. I've watched videos trying to see if someone's found a counter to it, as I plan on maining ZSS. But, that's just another part of the strategy for the other character. It won't be too much of a problem until they get high enough percentages to get launched from the stage, but regardless, it still is a problem. But, comparing it to the alternative- having to aim exactly for that sweetspot every single time you need it, regardless of someone being on the ledge or not- this way is in fact better.

And I wasn't bashing them at all- I know I'd get my @$$ handed to me because I don't play that way. I never said it wasn't effective, I just don't like that style of play. I want to stick up for the way I enjoy playing, and it's not because it's casual. I'm very, very competitive with Smash Bros. But I don't need to master glitches to do so. Without the glitches, the 'pros' will simply have to find a new way to establish themselves as professionals or give up and go back to Melee. The real competitors will do the former, the whiners will do the latter. Either way is fine, you don't HAVE to play either game. But just because you don't enjoy one game's style of play doesn't mean you have to bash it as inferior, that's my point. But no one acknowledges this. I feel like I'm talking to a wall, or my parents. Neither really listens to what I have to say anymore that what they need to in order to take something I said and counter it. So is life. Actual conversations are far and few.

And wow, the rest is a wall of text that's so flawed so I don't even feel like replying to it.

I was thinking of ways to reply to everything you said right up until I read this, the classic "I don't really have a response to it so I'll just make him look like an idiot" line. It's cool, I can accept quitting and 'losing' this argument, since I don't even know who the hell you are, and winning would a) never happen and b) I wouldn't benefit from it at all. You can hate this game and bash it all you want, and constantly beat this dead horse while the rest of us play and master this new game. Enjoy your Melee tournaments.

Argument Victor: Yuna
Congratulations on winning a message board fight!
(do I have to make the Special Olympics reference?)​

 

[NOT Sliq]

From a competitive standpoint? I'll call it professional, though I despise the use of the word, because I'm also looking at it from a competitive standpoint. But the way I compete is not with the wavedashes and advanced tech you use. You view the new game as inferior because it lacks these, and that's your point. I get it. I really do. What I'm saying is that if you stop looking at this game through that very limited scope, you could possibly view this as a huge upgrade- which I do. Give the game more than two weeks before you bash it.

I fail to see how removing gameplay elements and not replacing them is an "upgrade."

You are also looking at it from a very limited scope because you never played competitively, while I at one time played Melee as you do now. I can "get" your side because I've experienced it, and to a casual non-tournament goer, Brawl looks outstanding. But from a competitive stand point (i.e. tournament standpoint), Brawl appears inferior to Melee.

As far as the "skill dependent" comment, who's to say it's not skill dependent? It simply takes new skills, as a new game should. New techniques, new types of combos, a new need for choosing appropriate moves at the right times, and mastering the entire moveset of your main instead of knowing a few good moves and using them again and again... from the way I look at it, this is a much more skill-dependent game. You may not need to learn the perfect button configuration to wavedash and l-cancel and the like, but you need to know your character's strengths, weaknesses, etc. much more for this game, in my opinion.

I want you to point out the new skills necessary to play this game that aren't already existent in Melee.

Once again, "new" doesn't mean better, nor does it mean more interesting. If these "new" mechanics aren't better or more interesting, then the game is inferior to its predecessor.

Furthermore, the notion that you don't need to know your Melee character to win (which is what you are implying) is ludicrous. Also, some moves are inherently bad and practically useless, and therefore the better moves are used, so it appears that only one move is being spammed.

You aren't going to magically start Ganon up tilting people in Brawl because it is a new game. That move is far too slow to connect on someone with a brain stem. The moves you use are based off of a Risk - Reward system. If the risk isn't worth the reward, it is not a viable option. That is why only some moves are used and others are not.

Example: Jigglypuff's rest in Melee was awesome. You could combo into it, and it would kill at low percents. In Brawl, it doesn't kill until 60%, and you can not combo into it anymore due to the new gameplay mechanics. Jigglypuff's rest now sucks balls.

To think that every move every character has is now useful because Brawl is a new game is ludicrous. Certain moves will be better than others, just like certain characters will be better than others. Your post is showing a vast ignorance of Tournament Level Melee. It is simply ridiculous for someone NOT from the Tournament camp to argue about the Tournament potential of Brawl due to a vast lack of knowledge.

Are you honestly trying to tell me 64 and Melee can be played the same way? Melee is 100x faster, along with airdodging, extra forward moves, different physics mechanics, that wavedashing thing I keep bringing up, etc. I fail to see how dashdancing and l-canceling proves anything.

No, they are different, but there still are some similarities in mind games, spacing, approach, and combo-ability, more so than 64->Brawl or Melee->Brawl imho.

Again, completely missing the point. 1) combos and stuff for each character will always be found. What I'm saying is this: You will find new ways to win in a new game. It may not be as fast-paced, but that's where more strategy comes in. Now, you can't simply glide over and chain grab them then aerial them to death- you have to pick from ALL your moves, not just a few of the most effective onces, and you have to use them at the appropriate times. Use small, quick attacks to pile up damage, while avoiding the opponent's same. As their damage gets higher, try attacks with more knockback to get them either off the edge or in the air. Once there, you can try the kill attacks. You can't spam aerials anymore- a trait I actually enjoy- so find a different way to utilize the techniques already given to you. If you need a glitch and a few effective moves to be competitive, then you're missing out on a lot more depth in the game. Limiting yourself to certain techniques is not "depth". "Depth" means that when you change characters, there is now a whole new way to approach, which is what Brawl has. Good luck playing with Marth then switching to Bowser. With Melee, if you knew how to wavedash with each and spam aerials, it was much easier. Now, you have to master a whole new way to play with each character and use their strengths with smart move choices so you don't leave yourself open. I like that.

You are showing a PROFOUND misunderstanding about high level tournament play, my friend. You have no idea what you are talking about. There is just SO MUCH bull**** in this paragraph that I'm having a hard time deciding where to start pulling apart your argument and destroying it.

Like, everything you said in that paragraph is 100% wrong. It is ridiculous the assumptions you are making about Tournament Melee. It's preposterous.

IF everyone uses rolling, there will be those that have mastered it, AND those that just know what it is. You cannot simply "pick up a controller" and know how to roll with the best. Ask anyone who plays casually against competitive players who only roll- there's a big difference. Wavedashing may take a lot of practice to learn how to do correctly and casually, BUT once learned, it's not a 'strategy', it's just a new way of playing. That's what created the two different levels of smashers- 'pros' and 'noobs'- and Sakurai tried to get rid of the barrier between the two, while still makign the game competitive. If one would look at the game without the small scope of how to play Melee-style, he would realize that this is still a very, very competitive game, and it always will be. That's Smash Bros. You can disagree, since I know you will, but you won't convince me otherwise while I'm busy *competing* to win.

Once again, showing such a profound ignorance about competitive Melee that I really don;t know where to start.

Also, holding R + a direction isn't hard, so the minute you learn to roll, you are already rolling like the best of them. Sure, the application will take some work, but not NEARLY AS MUCH AS IN MELEE.

Hmm... Very interesting point. And though this is true because of the lack of glitches formerly found in Melee, here's a different way to look at it since I assume you haven't yet... Did you use all the different options of attack in Melee? All those ones that were there and still are there? Did you use every move of every character? Did you find ways to use the moves that weren't good for professional, high-paced aerial play, but are actually good in the style of play used in Brawl and Melee w/o the advanced tech? If you didn't, then this is, in essence, a brand new experience, which so far you seem to hate. I have been using said techniques, but I still find much more depth in this game with the new characters and whole new movesets to explore. Sonic? Olimar? Diddy? Pit? The list goes on- It'll be a long time until I've figured out how to use every character efficiently, particularly with the way Brawl is set up. That's how I like it- a lot more strategy behind it, and a lot less thorough knowledge and spamming of glitches.

Yup, this debate is over. You have NO IDEA what the **** you are talking about. Spamming glitches, are you serious. Wow, just wow.

Another interesting point I'd like to counter. With Link, this is true, as you now can't attack to the bottom of a stage strategically. But, with all the new characters that depend on this attack to get back- such as Olimar and ZSS- it's no longer just an alternative strategy- it's the only way to survive. If they get spiked down, without the auto sweetspot to aim upwards, they're doomed no matter what. You can't expect them to always get lined up with the sweet spot to get back. That would be impossible, and the characters would be "bottom tier" because of this huge difficiency. Sakurai and his group were smart to add this in for their purpose, though perhaps they could have kept Link's un-automatic, I can agree with that.

Yeah, you are wrong. First off, I didn't only mean the tether recoveries. Up B's now snap to the ledge. That in and of itself is ********.

Furthermore, for the tether recoveries with up B, all you really needed was to loosen the tolerance for sweet spotting for them so you had to be close but not right on to sweet spot. Then all you'd have to do is try and sweet spot like any other up b, except instead of your character moving, their tether moves.

tl;dr

This guy has a profound misunderstanding of the Melee Competitive scene, and should probably not talk about it because it makes him look ********.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Well written, with very little flaming evident. Good show OP!

 

[Yuna]

I never said it would make them magically appear. From the beginning I have said we would have to look for them (or at least I was thinking it). They may not be there, but Brawl is a new game, and there should be new techniques/tactics/glitches/exploits, and we may find them by looking for ways to stay safe while having to deal with lag. We will have to look for them, as, like you said, they will not magically appear.

I never said you did.

I said the OP did.

 

[reelbigfishstix9]

First off- thank you for stating your opinion without trying to make me sound inferior. I respect what you have to say now, unlike some other people on these boards.

Now, yes, I do know of that flaw. I've watched videos trying to see if someone's found a counter to it, as I plan on maining ZSS. But, that's just another part of the strategy for the other character. It won't be too much of a problem until they get high enough percentages to get launched from the stage, but regardless, it still is a problem. But, comparing it to the alternative- having to aim exactly for that sweetspot every single time you need it, regardless of someone being on the ledge or not- this way is in fact better.

And I wasn't bashing them at all- I know I'd get my @$$ handed to me because I don't play that way. I never said it wasn't effective, I just don't like that style of play. I want to stick up for the way I enjoy playing, and it's not because it's casual. I'm very, very competitive with Smash Bros. But I don't need to master glitches to do so. Without the glitches, the 'pros' will simply have to find a new way to establish themselves as professionals or give up and go back to Melee. The real competitors will do the former, the whiners will do the latter. Either way is fine, you don't HAVE to play either game. But just because you don't enjoy one game's style of play doesn't mean you have to bash it as inferior, that's my point. But no one acknowledges this. I feel like I'm talking to a wall, or my parents. Neither really listens to what I have to say anymore that what they need to in order to take something I said and counter it. So is life. Actual conversations are far and few.



I was thinking of ways to reply to everything you said right up until I read this, the classic "I don't really have a response to it so I'll just make him look like an idiot" line. It's cool, I can accept quitting and 'losing' this argument, since I don't even know who the hell you are, and winning would a) never happen and b) I wouldn't benefit from it at all. You can hate this game and bash it all you want, and constantly beat this dead horse while the rest of us play and master this new game. Enjoy your Melee tournaments.

Argument Victor: Yuna
Congratulations on winning a message board fight!
(do I have to make the Special Olympics reference?)​

no problem .... but what i was trying to say about the pro's thing is the ones who our on top now. Could take every wavedash and lcancel out of their play against most of the people who use them and who don't and still 3-4 stock us. These little "glitches" is not what makes them pro, Its how fast they think in the situations they are in and how they handle and interperet the person they are fighting.

 

[staindgrey]

To think that every move every character has is now useful because Brawl is a new game is ludicrous. Certain moves will be better than others, just like certain characters will be better than others. Your post is showing a vast ignorance of Tournament Level Melee. It is simply ridiculous for someone NOT from the Tournament camp to argue about the Tournament potential of Brawl due to a vast lack of knowledge.

BINGO! Ignorance! That's right! Because I DON'T play the way you do- wait, didn't I say that? Ohhhh yeah that's right. Multiple times. In fact, I'm pretty sure the whole time I said I didn't use advanced tech's and the like you love so much, and simply challenged you all to find new ways to dominate instead of remaining nostalgic over Melee.

I'm talking about the whole scene, not just Tournament Melee scene. I go to tournaments constantly, but apparently not the hardcore ones because I rarely see wavedashing, and when I do, they usually just know how to do it a little, they haven't mastered it. I never said I was speaking for you all, I was simply saying that if you really are that hardcore/competitive/whatever, you could try and rise to the challenge of mastering a new game, whether "inferior" or not. If you don't want to, you don't have to, like I've said over and over. Just please stop filling the boards I want to read with this "Brawl sucks compared to Melee!" garbage. Post those in the Melee part where everyone will care about what you really have to say. The only reason I'm still replying to this stuff and not doing something more productive is because I feel Brawl isn't getting any respect for the amazing improvement it is. Your limited view on it from extreme tournament style play does it no justice. I'll say it again: don't like it? Don't play it. Stop feeding us the same old **** and spiking down anyone's thoughts that are actually praising of the game we want so badly.

no problem .... but what i was trying to say about the pro's thing is the ones who our on top now. Could take every wavedash and lcancel out of their play against most of the people who use them and who don't and still 3-4 stock us. These little "glitches" is not what makes them pro, Its how fast they think in the situations they are in and how they handle and interperet the person they are fighting.

I can't say whether that would happen or not, I've never played them. But I'm pretty sure you're right, because they most likely play a lot more than I do. but the fact that I choose not to use some of the advanced tech's does not make me inferior or casual or a noob, which is what I sometimes hate about these boards. I just want to talk Smash and give my opinion without getting bashed and called inferior. I love these games and I love playing them competitively with the best to see where I stack- I just don't wavedash. Plain and simple. But that one small difference seems to make me inferior. When I play Brawl online, I really, really want to face some members on here to see where I stack outside of southern Ohio.

Say, would you want to? My friend Reg is a huge Peach player actually, she's a ***** to play sometimes lol