The King of Iron Fist - Heihachi Mishima

Zakhara

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This sounds really interesting, but I have absolutely no idea what your acronyms mean. Would you be willing to explain what they are and what the moves you're talking about do?
EWGF is "Electric Wind God Fist." It's the signature Mishima uppercut (forward, neutral, down, down/forward +2), and staple in their offense because it starts a combo on hit and is advantaged on block.
The primary caveat is the demanding execution; down/forward+2 ("2" being "right hand" in Tekken parlance) must be simultaneous to be an "Electric." The ordinary WGF is a pretty terrible move, so mastering Electric is a key part of Minima play.

OTGF is "Omen Thunder God Fist," which only Heihachi uses (forward, neutral, down/forward +1, basically a shoryuken). It's safer than its ordinary version, hits harder, and starts a combo on hit, but it's really slow and is equally demanding in execution. The slow speed can be circumvented due to its evasive ducking property, but it's a niche move and rarely ever used.
 

Sigran101

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EWGF is "Electric Wind God Fist." It's the signature Mishima uppercut (forward, neutral, down, down/forward +2), and staple in their offense because it starts a combo on hit and is advantaged on block.
The primary caveat is the demanding execution; down/forward+2 ("2" being "right hand" in Tekken parlance) must be simultaneous to be an "Electric." The ordinary WGF is a pretty terrible move, so mastering Electric is a key part of Minima play.

OTGF is "Omen Thunder God Fist," which only Heihachi uses (forward, neutral, down/forward +1, basically a shoryuken). It's safer than its ordinary version, hits harder, and starts a combo on hit, but it's really slow and is equally demanding in execution. The slow speed can be circumvented due to its evasive ducking property, but it's a niche move and rarely ever used.
Interesting. Are these actual lightning punches or is that name only?
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Interesting. Are these actual lightning punches or is that name only?
They are actual electrically charged attacks, so most attacks would probably get the electric effect in Smash similar to Pikachu's attacks or PK Thunder.

Heihachi offers a lot of unconventional moves compared to more vanilla fighting game characters for example a Headbutt move called Chrome Dome, a ground stomp called Geta Stomp along with multiple limb attacks like Demon Wings for example where he stretches both arms.

In general Heihachi is best described as a character who does not care about wether his attacks look weird or non-graceful, he just cares about how strong his attacks are and not how flashy or fancy he looks while executing them. Basically he is all about how hard he hits.

As for unique inputs and gimmicks for Smash standards: one easy example is stance change. His Down-Special could for example be his Raijin Stance which is both an attack and also changes the position of his body. In Smash terms this would most likely change up his 3 other specials into Fusatsujin Hasaiken, Raijin's Wrath and Lightning Bolt. This effect would stay as long as the player stays in Raijin stance, every other attack besides the 3 specials would cancel back out of Raijin Stance and return him to his original moveset. That means he would have something like a small version of Pokemon Trainer's or Zelda/Shiek's old transformstion ability integrated only that it just changes his stance and his specials but not his appeareance or entire moveset.

Other unique features would be besides retaining the FG character's auto-turn feature and Terry's split of the Side-Special into a Forward-Special and Backward-Special, special commands, like down-forward attacks as special attacks for a ducked stance are also a classic Tekken feature. That means instead of just having a Forward-Tilt and Down-Tilt a unique attack can be performed when first pressing down to duck and then forward and the A-Button. That would result into Heihachi executing a low-positioned attack quickly forwards.

Some of his similar moves like the Wind God Fist and Electric Wind God Fist could be split into regular attacks and command input versions. The regular Wind God Fist being his Forward-Smash and the Electric Wind God Fist being enabled by the recycled input from Tekken which coincidentally is the same as both the Shoryuken and Power Dunk inputs in Smash.

A lot of his moveset would write itself pretty much as everything from grabs and throws is already there, it just has to be decided onto which buttons exactly his moves would be distributed best.

His most flashy attack would probably be his Final Smash which would most likely be split too into a close-proximity and far-distance vefrsion. The close version being Rage Arts which hits only one opponent but pretty severely in a cutscene-sequence and the far version being Rockets-Away where he straps opponents onto a rocket and laughs maniacally while they blast away, which would hit multiple opponents with vertical knockback but not as severe in terms of damage percentage. Smash can really pull off his more goofy side.

I am currently working on a full moveset and will post it here for reference once I'm finished.
 

Sigran101

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They are actual electrically charged attacks, so most attacks would probably get the electric effect in Smash similar to Pikachu's attacks or PK Thunder.

Heihachi offers a lot of unconventional moves compared to more vanilla fighting game characters for example a Headbutt move called Chrome Dome, a ground stomp called Geta Stomp along with multiple limb attacks like Demon Wings for example where he stretches both arms.

In general Heihachi is best described as a character who does not care about wether his attacks look weird or non-graceful, he just cares about how strong his attacks are and not how flashy or fancy he looks while executing them. Basically he is all about how hard he hits.

As for unique inputs and gimmicks for Smash standards: one easy example is stance change. His Down-Special could for example be his Raijin Stance which is both an attack and also changes the position of his body. In Smash terms this would most likely change up his 3 other specials into Fusatsujin Hasaiken, Raijin's Wrath and Lightning Bolt. This effect would stay as long as the player stays in Raijin stance, every other attack besides the 3 specials would cancel back out of Raijin Stance and return him to his original moveset. That means he would have something like a small version of Pokemon Trainer's or Zelda/Shiek's old transformstion ability integrated only that it just changes his stance and his specials but not his appeareance or entire moveset.

Other unique features would be besides retaining the FG character's auto-turn feature and Terry's split of the Side-Special into a Forward-Special and Backward-Special, special commands, like down-forward attacks as special attacks for a ducked stance are also a classic Tekken feature. That means instead of just having a Forward-Tilt and Down-Tilt a unique attack can be performed when first pressing down to duck and then forward and the A-Button. That would result into Heihachi executing a low-positioned attack quickly forwards.

Some of his similar moves like the Wind God Fist and Electric Wind God Fist could be split into regular attacks and command input versions. The regular Wind God Fist being his Forward-Smash and the Electric Wind God Fist being enabled by the recycled input from Tekken which coincidentally is the same as both the Shoryuken and Power Dunk inputs in Smash.

A lot of his moveset would write itself pretty much as everything from grabs and throws is already there, it just has to be decided onto which buttons exactly his moves would be distributed best.

His most flashy attack would probably be his Final Smash which would most likely be split too into a close-proximity and far-distance vefrsion. The close version being Rage Arts which hits only one opponent but pretty severely in a cutscene-sequence and the far version being Rockets-Away where he straps opponents onto a rocket and laughs maniacally while they blast away, which would hit multiple opponents with vertical knockback but not as severe in terms of damage percentage. Smash can really pull off his more goofy side.

I am currently working on a full moveset and will post it here for reference once I'm finished.
Not gonna lie, this sounds much more interesting than Ryu and Terry. Count me in! I'm pretty much 50/50 on whether he'll make it. I think it's either him or Lloyd.
 

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The recent announcement of another collection of retro Namco games for the Switch got me wondering - why hasn't there been a Tekken Anniversary Collection? You'd think that, after the Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection, along with SNK porting seemingly all of their old games to modern consoles through the Arcade Archives ports, Tekken would be next, and Namco-Bandai certainly isn't shy about releasing collections of their older games.

I get that Gon, a manga character, being included in Tekken 3 caused some licensing issues later on (the game isn't available to download on the PS3), but Tekken 3 made it into the Playstation Classic console, so presumably, they can work around it. I'm just wondering if someone who's better informed than me when it comes to Tekken can explain why something like this hasn't been done. (especially with the 25th anniversary being on December 2019)
 
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TAnimal

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The recent announcement of another collection of retro Namco games for the Switch got me wondering - why hasn't there been a Tekken Anniversary Collection? You'd think that, after the Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection, along with SNK porting seemingly all of their old games to modern consoles through the Arcade Archives ports, Tekken would be next, and Namco-Bandai certainly isn't shy about releasing collections of their older games.

I get that Gon, a manga character, being included in Tekken 3 caused some licensing issues later on (the game isn't available to download on the PS3), but Tekken 3 made it into the Playstation Classic console, so presumably, they can work around it. I'm just wondering if someone who's better informed than me when it comes to Tekken can explain why something like this hasn't been done. (especially with the 25th anniversary being on December 2019)
I think it just comes down to Timing, let’s keep in perspective that Most Games ported into Nintendo console don’t always coincide an Anniversary, on the contrary there is good reason to port Games on a Day of a Titles Celebration but that’s only in a Blue Moon that could be a thing with a Game or a Collection of Games.

As far as Why they should have put a Tekken Collection together Right this moment, it mostly just comes from Pending Development as Harada who is the General Manager of the Bandai-Namco Entertainment Brand and the Founder & Creator of Tekken just doesn’t see the Rush of releasing a Tekken Collection when in Truth Tekken 7 is a Tribute/Museum of Tekken History (or for my POV the Avengers: Endgame of the Tekken Franchise)
 

Zakhara

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As for unique inputs and gimmicks for Smash standards: one easy example is stance change. His Down-Special could for example be his Raijin Stance which is both an attack and also changes the position of his body. In Smash terms this would most likely change up his 3 other specials into Fusatsujin Hasaiken, Raijin's Wrath and Lightning Bolt...

...Other unique features would be besides retaining the FG character's auto-turn feature and Terry's split of the Side-Special into a Forward-Special and Backward-Special, special commands, like down-forward attacks as special attacks for a ducked stance are also a classic Tekken feature. That means instead of just having a Forward-Tilt and Down-Tilt a unique attack can be performed when first pressing down to duck and then forward and the A-Button...

Some of his similar moves like the Wind God Fist and Electric Wind God Fist could be split into regular attacks and command input versions. The regular Wind God Fist being his Forward-Smash and the Electric Wind God Fist being enabled by the recycled input from Tekken which coincidentally is the same as both the Shoryuken and Power Dunk inputs in Smash.
I think if Heihachi makes the cut, they won't attempt to finely replicate Tekken's control. Not only is the nuance of the crouch-dash (there must be a neutral input) and just-frame hard to translate well, several signature moves (primarily EWGF, OTGF, and hell-sweep) share the crouch-dash "shoryuken" part. So I don't think the Ryu/Ken/Terry thing is likely.

Can definitely see Raijin as a down-B stance, though. I think if anything comes of it, the "Mishima-style Crouch Dash" will be a side-B stance, not unlike Dancing Blade. And if they attempt to retain the importance of EWGF, they may do it like soft/hard inputs, like Samus' missiles, to avoid any backlash from players unable to do Electrics at all.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Not gonna lie, this sounds much more interesting than Ryu and Terry. Count me in! I'm pretty much 50/50 on whether he'll make it. I think it's either him or Lloyd.
Thanks! I'm glad that I could make you more interested in him!
The recent announcement of another collection of retro Namco games for the Switch got me wondering - why hasn't there been a Tekken Anniversary Collection? You'd think that, after the Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection, along with SNK porting seemingly all of their old games to modern consoles through the Arcade Archives ports, Tekken would be next, and Namco-Bandai certainly isn't shy about releasing collections of their older games.

I get that Gon, a manga character, being included in Tekken 3 caused some licensing issues later on (the game isn't available to download on the PS3), but Tekken 3 made it into the Playstation Classic console, so presumably, they can work around it. I'm just wondering if someone who's better informed than me when it comes to Tekken can explain why something like this hasn't been done. (especially with the 25th anniversary being on December 2019)
I don't know the exact reasons, but when we look back at it historically the original 3 Tekken games always just got re-released on Playstatiom hardware, either through Playstation Network during the PS3 times or as you mentioned on the Playstation Classic in 2018.
A reason of this could be that 1 year before each of those 3 games originally released on the PS1 they were already available on arcade machines, which used the Namco System 11 which was basically modified Playstation Hardware. I'm not sure about it but there might be some old contracts that leave this game exclusive to Playstation as a result of basing them directly on their hardware even on the arcades. I don't know if such exclusivity deals would have expired by now, because I'm not sure if they even thought about the possibility of re-releasing them in the far future back then.
The home version of Tekken 6 was the first main Tekken game to go multi-platform being on PS3 and XBOX 360. Same for Tag Tournament 2 with the addition of the superior Wii U edition. Tekken 7 got a release on PS3, XBOX One and even PC. I rather wonder why TTT2 and T7 never got a release o Switch. For TTT2 it might be because it (sadly) was already too outdated by the time the Switch released and in 2017 Harada said they have interest to port T7 to Switch, but just couldn't get a development kit for the Switch yet, and some years later when asked about it again he said they have to analyse if the interest is there but if people really want in on Switch tey'll do it. The sad part is he never held a poll or anything. They either have a special version planned as consolation for that big delay probably with all DLC pre-installed once the DLC is officially finished or the what I view as more likely now: the game never comes to the Switch. Depending on wether a season 4 DLC Pass happens there might still be hope, but I think development for Tekken 8 has already started either way. As always it will launch on arcades first and then will probably get a release on PS5 and the new XBOX. And that game would definitely not run on the Switch. Sadly
I think if Heihachi makes the cut, they won't attempt to finely replicate Tekken's control. Not only is the nuance of the crouch-dash (there must be a neutral input) and just-frame hard to translate well, several signature moves (primarily EWGF, OTGF, and hell-sweep) share the crouch-dash "shoryuken" part. So I don't think the Ryu/Ken/Terry thing is likely.

Can definitely see Raijin as a down-B stance, though. I think if anything comes of it, the "Mishima-style Crouch Dash" will be a side-B stance, not unlike Dancing Blade. And if they attempt to retain the importance of EWGF, they may do it like soft/hard inputs, like Samus' missiles, to avoid any backlash from players unable to do Electrics at all.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I simplified the input by taking away the Neutral position between the → and ↓ similar to how some of Terry's inputs were simplified. This was explained in Sakurai's presentation of Terry were he said some were too complex so they made a simplified version available. I think simplifying the Crouch Dash input to →↓↘A/B makes sense to both keep him more in line with the other fighting game reps and as you said not requiring frame-perfect inputs to not frustrate all too much. We kinda have to find the balance here between the two gameplay styles, that's why I thought giving the regular Wind God Fist to a standard move not requirig an input from Smash and the stronger Electric Wind God Fist to a simplified command input a lot of Smash fans would be already familar with. This mirrors the imperfect and perfect version of the attack in Tekken just that a Smash Bros spin has been given to it to still keep it accessable for those who do not want to learn the input (they get the imoerfect version, similar to those in Tekken who do not time the input correctly) I don't know wether the Neutral input part would even be possible with Smash's analog controlls as it's very easy to drift of the stick and none of the FG rep's had inputs with neutral positions. As you mentioned the Crouch Dash input is an iconic part so I'd really like it to be carried over into Smash and I think it fits the best for the EWGF as it is kind of both iconic and also a meme in the Tekken fanbase. I have to look up how Samus' missiles work again as I currently don't have it available in my memory (haven't played her in a long time). The whole idea of the input and which I'd consider taking over is still a little experimental and I haven't completed the moveset so some things might change as I haven't fleshed everything out.
On another note: on which button would you map the Wind God Fist? A punch usually would be a Forward-Tilt, but I think the way it works in Tekken would fit better for a Forward-Smash (in Tekken just minus the lag that Smash-Attacks have when they are charged to hit with their maximum power).
I don't know wether the Crouch Dash would work as a stance, of course we could mirror the 4 Playstation buttons (the sole difference between the Crouch Dash inputs) with the crouch dash being the prelude and then mapping the following final button results as the last input (like Side-B again for the EWGD, Up-B for OTGF) but the problem I'd see is the follow-ups would be too. fast for a stance, as there isn't really a delay of it in Tekken while a stance has more longevity in my opinion. I can see how it would work in Smash, but it kinda would try to mirror a Tekken mechanic, but at the same time would work a lot different from both Smash and Tekken mechanics.
 
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Sigran101

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I still say a Bamco character is 100% garunteed. There's no excuse for the Heihachi costume not to come back with Terry. Either it's coming with another Bamco character (Lloyd) or Heihachi is playable. Of I suppose it's possible another Tekken character could take the spot, but I wouldn't count on it. People are really sleeping on Heihachi. Once again, I say about 50/50. Or maybe like 45% chance, with 45% Lloyd, 5% a different Tekken character and 5% a different Tales character.
 

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I still say a Bamco character is 100% garunteed. There's no excuse for the Heihachi costume not to come back with Terry. Either it's coming with another Bamco character (Lloyd) or Heihachi is playable. Of I suppose it's possible another Tekken character could take the spot, but I wouldn't count on it. People are really sleeping on Heihachi. Once again, I say about 50/50. Or maybe like 45% chance, with 45% Lloyd, 5% a different Tekken character and 5% a different Tales character.
I agree. It's either Lloyd, Heihachi, or Nightmare taking that Namco slot.
 

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Yeah. I'm not sure which one they'd go with. Lloyd is the fan request one and Heihachi is the important to gaming history one. I don't know about Nightmare's chances, but that would definitely be super cool.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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I still say a Bamco character is 100% garunteed. There's no excuse for the Heihachi costume not to come back with Terry. Either it's coming with another Bamco character (Lloyd) or Heihachi is playable. Of I suppose it's possible another Tekken character could take the spot, but I wouldn't count on it. People are really sleeping on Heihachi. Once again, I say about 50/50. Or maybe like 45% chance, with 45% Lloyd, 5% a different Tekken character and 5% a different Tales character.
Yes it really feels like the stars are aligning for a Namco character. Otherwise this would be the biggest red herring in Smash history for me personally. They have to be aware that theories will arise when none of their costumes return even when they fit perfectly, so we are either in to finally get a second Namco character or they did all of this just to troll us and lead us in the wrong direction. I'm leaning towards them getting a character. There was also that cheeky comment of Sakurai during Terry's presentstion about Pac-Man being Namco's character and them always forgetting about it, as if he is aware we are wondering why they only have one character while they are developing the games since Smash 4.
I agree. It's either Lloyd, Heihachi, or Nightmare taking that Namco slot.
Lloyd, Heihachi, Nightmare and I could also see Dark Souls as a dark horse pick for how iconic that series has become in the last decade. It sure will be an interesting reveal if a Namco character really happens.

Also to return back to the moveset discussion, I just remembered Diddy Kong has something similar to a chained move with his side-special allowing for multiple outcomes at the end. I might keep the Crouch Dash in mind for this. But as a compromise how would you like it to still be an input but split into
→↓↘A for the Electric Wind God Fist and →↓↘B for the OTGF. This would still leave stuff like Hell Sweap up in the air but it would be a much closer approximation. The other FG reps let you press either A or B for the same input.
 
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MarcSio277

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Ryu and Ken were mostly based on their SF2 appeareance which means they had the basic moves they have in all later games and just lack some which got added later.
Jin completely replaced his old Mishima karte style with a new one he learned in a dojo in Australia out of spite for his family. It would be out of character for him to have his Tekken 3 style back and it's not a case were only new moves would be lacking but where everything is completely different.
To answer why Heihachi instead of Jin or Kazuya? He is the favorite of Harada, the producer and director of Tekken and general manager at Bandai-Namco. Heihachi always gets chosen for crossovers and was considered for Smash before and also the only Tekken character to get a mii costume in Smash 4
Okay I think I should've respond to this earlier but unless I'm missing the point I'm not saying I want Jin or Kazuya over Heihachi I mean Heihachi is also in my mind for the Second Pass and I can wait for Jin or Kazuya(if there's gonna be a next installment that is). Also like that one user says on the Jin board, while having Jin using his TEKKEN 3 moves wouldn't represent the series from today, however an iconic installment can take over the newest as like you said shown with Ryu and Ken
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Okay I think I should've respond to this earlier but unless I'm missing the point I'm not saying I want Jin or Kazuya over Heihachi I mean Heihachi is also in my mind for the Second Pass and I can wait for Jin or Kazuya(if there's gonna be a next installment that is). Also like that one user says on the Jin board, while having Jin using his TEKKEN 3 moves wouldn't represent the series from today, however an iconic installment can take over the newest as like you said shown with Ryu and Ken
I wouldn't have a problem with either of these two showing up in a later instalment. In general I would say Namco characters are among the most likely to be save from cuts because of Namco's strong connection to Smash development, so I could see this getting expanded upon in a future instalment.
Personally I feel like Tekken would already be perfectly represented in Smash with Heihachi as the only character due to the nature of fighting games making it hard to be represented in its entirety in a crossover as you can play a huge variety of playable characters in the home series but have to decide on less than a hand-full for the crossover. This makes it harder to represent it unlike a series which has only one playable protagonist. Street Fighter made sense as it was the first big fighting game series and Ryu made it easy to base Ken upon him. Kazuya and Heihachi always had some differences between them. And while Jin was a replacement for Kazuya with a very similar moveset to him in Tekken 3 there's still the problem we'd need Kazuya in Smash first to base Jin's moveset upon him. Because if we go for Jin first, why should we base it on an outdated version when we start from scratch anyway? The only way I could see them ending up as future echoes would be if Kazuya gets in in this gane instead of Heihachi and Jin might be an echo in a future game. But that timeline would imply that Kazuya would be chosen as the sole Tekken rep for Ultimate and that's something I would doubt because we can only have one Tekken character in this game and it does not make sense to choose Kazuya over either Heihachi or Jin. Jin could work as the protagonist kind of character, but we would have to wonder: why would he be the chosen one now when Heihachi was already the one to show up in other crossovers, was considered for Smash before, got a costume in Smash 4 and is one of only four characters to show up in every Tekken game. As for future games I could see either Kazuya or Tekken 3 Jin show up as a semi-clone, but I'd be more than satisfied with Heihachi already and other stuff would just be a cherry on top.
 

MarcSio277

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I wouldn't have a problem with either of these two showing up in a later instalment. In general I would say Namco characters are among the most likely to be save from cuts because of Namco's strong connection to Smash development, so I could see this getting expanded upon in a future instalment.
Personally I feel like Tekken would already be perfectly represented in Smash with Heihachi as the only character due to the nature of fighting games making it hard to be represented in its entirety in a crossover as you can play a huge variety of playable characters in the home series but have to decide on less than a hand-full for the crossover. This makes it harder to represent it unlike a series which has only one playable protagonist. Street Fighter made sense as it was the first big fighting game series and Ryu made it easy to base Ken upon him. Kazuya and Heihachi always had some differences between them. And while Jin was a replacement for Kazuya with a very similar moveset to him in Tekken 3 there's still the problem we'd need Kazuya in Smash first to base Jin's moveset upon him. Because if we go for Jin first, why should we base it on an outdated version when we start from scratch anyway? The only way I could see them ending up as future echoes would be if Kazuya gets in in this gane instead of Heihachi and Jin might be an echo in a future game. But that timeline would imply that Kazuya would be chosen as the sole Tekken rep for Ultimate and that's something I would doubt because we can only have one Tekken character in this game and it does not make sense to choose Kazuya over either Heihachi or Jin. Jin could work as the protagonist kind of character, but we would have to wonder: why would he be the chosen one now when Heihachi was already the one to show up in other crossovers, was considered for Smash before, got a costume in Smash 4 and is one of only four characters to show up in every Tekken game. As for future games I could see either Kazuya or Tekken 3 Jin show up as a semi-clone, but I'd be more than satisfied with Heihachi already and other stuff would just be a cherry on top.
Well I mean like first add Heihachi in the pass then for the next installment add Kazuya as Heihachi's echo (with of course some differences) and Jin as Kazuya's Alph
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Well I mean like first add Heihachi in the pass then for the next installment add Kazuya as Heihachi's echo (with of course some differences) and Jin as Kazuya's Alph
I'd be ok with that. If Sakurai explicitly says that this Jin alt is only based on Tekken 3 Harada might be ok with it too. It just has to be made clear from Sakurai's side that the alt is just a bonus and does not represent current Jin as that would undermine the character development he went through.
 

MarcSio277

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I'd be ok with that. If Sakurai explicitly says that this Jin alt is only based on Tekken 3 Harada might be ok with it too. It just has to be made clear from Sakurai's side that the alt is just a bonus and does not represent current Jin as that would undermine the character development he went through.
Although if my idea happened by pure luck then that means that we won't have a Jin amiibo.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Although if my idea happened by pure luck then that means that we won't have a Jin amiibo.
Certain characters like Cloud and Bayonetta got amiibo for alts. We still have to wait and see how they are gonna handle Hero in the amiibo department.
 

MarcSio277

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Certain characters like Cloud and Bayonetta got amiibo for alts. We still have to wait and see how they are gonna handle Hero in the amiibo department.
Okay I was only kidding but in all seriousness, it of course would be nice however I don't know if it's still gonna happen especially with how we still don't have a (f) Robin, Alph, and the Koopalings amiibo.
 

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I feel like too many people underestimate Nightmare or Soul Calibur in general. It's literally the 3rd horse in the race here.
 

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I really like FeliciaFan's Smash moveset videos for how in-depth he gets, and he just posted a moveset concept for Heihachi.


With Street Fighter and the King of Fighters in Smash, Tekken seems like the logical next step. Hopefully we get Heihachi (or at least a Tekken character, though I'd prefer Heihachi) in Smash Ultimate as DLC.
To be fair- Mortal Kombat is actually the second biggest Fighting Game media franchise after Street Fighter; though this is in large part due to the success of the movies, and other media notoriety.

I would feel very whole if iI got Scorpion and Heihachi.

That is also just... so many gimmicks. Gimmicks that would have little payoff to a majority of the audience.


I could see a few being implemented, but- 9?
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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I feel like too many people underestimate Nightmare or Soul Calibur in general. It's literally the 3rd horse in the race here.
Soul Calibur characters are brought up quite frequently actually. I also very often read the suggestion to put Yoshimitsu into Smash to rep both Tekken and Soul Calibur. While he would have a fun moveset, I don't really like the idea as repping two game series with one side character who has no plot-importance in either series seems rather forced and so does not represent either faithfully. With Soul Calibur being an offspring of Tekken and Soul Calibur not existing without Tekken I think Tekken takes the lead in this competition here.
If Soul Calibur is the 3rd horse then Dark Souls really is the dark horse in this race (no pun intended).
 
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Soul Calibur characters are brought up quite frequently actually. I very also very often read the suggestion to put Yoshimitsu into Smash to rep both Tekken and Soul Calibur. While he would have a fun moveset, I don't really like the idea as repping two game series with one side character who has no plot-importance in either series seems rather forced and so does not represent either faithfully. With Soul Calibur being an offspring of Tekken and Soul Calibur not existing without Tekken I think Tekken takes the lead in this competition here.
If Soul Calibur is the 3rd horse then Dark Souls really is the dark horse in this race (no pun intended).
I agree about Dark Souls being the dark horse or 4th horse in the race per say. But honestly about Yoshimitsu? He is my most wanted Namco rep and would bring a incredibly fun fighting moveset to the table I believe.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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I agree about Dark Souls being the dark horse or 4th horse in the race per say. But honestly about Yoshimitsu? He is my most wanted Namco rep and would bring a incredibly fun fighting moveset to the table I believe.
Yes he is fun to play but so is Dhalsim from Street Fighter with his long-ranged attacks. And wouldn't it be weird if he got in over Ryu in Smash? Fighting Games offer a huge variety of characters in their playable cast but the posterboy or face of the franchise should always take priority imo.
 

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Yes he is fun to play but so is Dhalsim from Street Fighter with his long-ranged attacks. And wouldn't it be weird if he got in over Ryu in Smash? Fighting Games offer a huge variety of characters in their playable cast but the posterboy or face of the franchise should always take priority imo.
I guess, but the posterboy isn't always the most interesting character in the franchise y'know.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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I guess, but the posterboy isn't always the most interesting character in the franchise y'know.
Sure, Chun-Li from Street Fighter is a good example of it. She is a fan favorite there and appears a lot on promotional material. But the more vanilla feeling shotos (Ryu and Ken) are the ones who ended up in Smash because they are the faces of the franchise. To be honest to represent Street Fighter faithfully in Smash we would need more characters than those two. Akuma and Chun-Li should be next in line maybe with Guile and M. Bison too to round it out. But that's impossible to happen. Smash has limited ressources and they have to limit their choices to the most important characters. For 3rd party series we only got one completely unique character so far with two of them getting an echo fighter. This will most likely not change. Eggman or Grunty as 3rd party villain reps would be something I'd extremely like too. But we have to keep it realistic here.
One thing I should add I kind of see some similarities between Soul Calibur and Samurai Showdown in this situation. When the SNK leak happened some people would have preferred Nakoruru from SamSho to get added in over a Fatal Fury/KoF character. Both SC and SS are weapon-based fighting games and smaller than the more famous martial arts based fighting game of the same company. I think that would be the best comparison of the situations they are in.
 

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I feel like too many people underestimate Nightmare or Soul Calibur in general. It's literally the 3rd horse in the race here.
Third horse?

I don't know who is considered first and second in this context: I assume Mortal Kombat and Tekken?
I'd imagine Mokujin would function like Ditto.
I'd like to jump in on this. I think more than just being like Ditto, Mokujin- whose body skeleton never changes- would offer some differences of intrigue- meaning, that he would take on moves of others, but still be in his skeleton. It would almost be an homage to all the hackers who put different movesets onto non-native characters. FUN!
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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Third horse?

I don't know who is considered first and second in this context: I assume Mortal Kombat and Tekken?


I'd like to jump in on this. I think more than just being like Ditto, Mokujin- whose body skeleton never changes- would offer some differences of intrigue- meaning, that he would take on moves of others, but still be in his skeleton. It would almost be an homage to all the hackers who put different movesets onto unnative characters. FUN!
Third horse not in the context of fighting games but in the context of Namco games with Tekken and Tales in front of SC.
 

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Third horse not in the context of fighting games but in the context of Namco games with Tekken and Tales in front of SC.
Oh- let me go on.

I still say a Bamco character is 100% garunteed. There's no excuse for the Heihachi costume not to come back with Terry. Either it's coming with another Bamco character (Lloyd) or Heihachi is playable. Of I suppose it's possible another Tekken character could take the spot, but I wouldn't count on it. People are really sleeping on Heihachi. Once again, I say about 50/50. Or maybe like 45% chance, with 45% Lloyd, 5% a different Tekken character and 5% a different Tales character.
Perhaps- but I think you have to consider Digimon; not only because it is a huge media series (which, means money), and not only for its fun rivalry with Pokemon.
1- The digital pet games were a huge part of gaming in the 90s- and could easily get a character to fit what they brought to the table.
2- Since the beginning, Sakurai has enjoyed unique characters. This is even down to the silhouettes. We don't have a character anything like Agumon, and he would be a very visually unique character. This is without even jumping into the-
3- Unique mechanic of digivolving. Leveling up and back down. Raising a character to grow.
4- Namco is pushing the new reboot of Digimon- hard. The series has been nearly as on going as Pokemon, which is even to my surprise as I thought it actually stopped for over a decade.

Also... without question, Digimon, like a Pokemon, would sell.
 

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Oh- let me go on.



Perhaps- but I think you have to consider Digimon; not only because it is a huge media series (which, means money), and not only for its fun rivalry with Pokemon.
1- The digital pet games were a huge part of gaming in the 90s- and could easily get a character to fit what they brought to the table.
2- Since the beginning, Sakurai has enjoyed unique characters. This is even down to the silhouettes. We don't have a character anything like Agumon, and he would be a very visually unique character. This is without even jumping into the-
3- Unique mechanic of digivolving. Leveling up and back down. Raising a character to grow.
4- Namco is pushing the new reboot of Digimon- hard. The series has been nearly as on going as Pokemon, which is even to my surprise as I thought it actually stopped for over a decade.

Also... without question, Digimon, like a Pokemon, would sell.
Augumon would certainly be one of the biggest "break the internet" characters, and having Pokemon versus Digimon would make smash even more legendary. I'm just not sure it really fits as a video game character. Yeah the digital pet thing came first, but all modern Digimon content is based, to some degree, on the anime. It would be like adding Ash to the game. Arguments could be made for either side of whether he could pass the video game character only rule.
 

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Augumon would certainly be one of the biggest "break the internet" characters, and having Pokemon versus Digimon would make smash even more legendary. I'm just not sure it really fits as a video game character. Yeah the digital pet thing came first, but all modern Digimon content is based, to some degree, on the anime. It would be like adding Ash to the game. Arguments could be made for either side of whether he could pass the video game character only rule.
Pokemon have been based in large part on the anime since the start. We have Pikachu and Jigglypuff in smash- characters that only mattered in the anime.
Pikachu has a down b that is a lighting attack coming from a cloud- based entirely on the (i believe third) episode of Pokemon.
Goldeen is the useless Pokeball Pokemon, as we see in the anime, when in the games, it is *clearly* magikarp.

The list could go on.

I think there is a way of honoring the virtual pets AND the anime. The anime used the digivices in the most-known seasons, which were the virtual pets.
There is no grey area as far as Digimon goes- only Greymon :pimp:

Digimon was a game first, and still is heavily a game (there is an INSANE list of them).
This isn't a speculation game- an argument cannot be made as to if it passes the 'video game first' rule.
Please dont add that lack of clarity into the conversation, because it is factually incorrect, and provable.
It was popularized by the anime- but that's exactly what Pokemon did.
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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Augumon would certainly be one of the biggest "break the internet" characters, and having Pokemon versus Digimon would make smash even more legendary. I'm just not sure it really fits as a video game character. Yeah the digital pet thing came first, but all modern Digimon content is based, to some degree, on the anime. It would be like adding Ash to the game. Arguments could be made for either side of whether he could pass the video game character only rule.
I agree with this. Digital pets are kind of between the borders of video games and virtual toys. I think with the root of Digimon being the Tamagotchi line of toys from Bandai it becomes hard to really classify it. Is Tamagotchi considered a video game? Technically it is. As much as the Game&Watch games were. But is Digimon really this big franchise it once was? It still is big in Japan but everywhere else it lost a lot of traction with Pokemon and its hype being the winner of this rivalry.
I could see Agumon working in Smash btw.
 

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I agree with this. Digital pets are kind of between the borders of video games and virtual toys. I think with the root of Digimon being the Tamagotchi line of toys from Bandai it becomes hard to really classify it. Is Tamagotchi considered a video game? Technically it is. As much as the Game&Watch games were. But is Digimon really this big franchise it once was? It still is big in Japan but everywhere else it lost a lot of traction with Pokemon and its hype being the winner of this rivalry.
I could see Agumon working in Smash btw.
It's ... not debatable. Digimon was a game first. Furthermore, Tamagatchi are ALSO owned by Bandai- you could say that this is even more reason a virtual pet would be the character that Bandai would include.

"The Digital MonsterJPN is a digital pet released in 1997 by Bandai. This pet was a masculine counterpart to the Tamagotchi, which was deemed more appropriate for girls.[1] It spawned the Digimon franchise. It was similar to earlier virtual pets with the distinctions of being a fighting pet that could connect with others like it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Monster_(virtual_pet)


What you have stated, JudgeHeihachi JudgeHeihachi , is just an opinion. The facts are the facts and should not be convoluted- if ROB is a video game, then a Digimon is a video game character. There isn't room to interpret.
I'm sure @Graizen would have even more to add.
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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It's ... not debatable. Digimon was a game first. Furthermore, Tamagatchi are ALSO owned by Bandai- you could say that this is even more reason a virtual pet would be the character that Bandai would include.

"The Digital MonsterJPN is a digital pet released in 1997 by Bandai. This pet was a masculine counterpart to the Tamagotchi, which was deemed more appropriate for girls.[1] It spawned the Digimon franchise. It was similar to earlier virtual pets with the distinctions of being a fighting pet that could connect with others like it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Monster_(virtual_pet)


What you have stated, JudgeHeihachi JudgeHeihachi , is just an opinion. The facts are the facts and should not be convoluted.
But I didn't even debate that. I said it technically counts as a video game and as such is suitble for Smash. I also said that Tamagotchi was the base for Digimon and was also by Bandai.
My main point from that post is that it isn't as big as it once was. If Nintendo wants it in Smash, sure it could happen.
 

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But I didn't even debate that. I said it technically counts as a video game and as such is suitble for Smash. I also said that Tamagotchi was the base for Digimon and was also by Bandai.
My main point from that post is that it isn't as big as it once was. If Nintendo wants it in Smash, sure it could happen.
Ah. Well, in that case- :ultpiranha::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry::ultbrawler:(arms) fit that mold of being not at their prime.
Though Digimon is actually in a resurgence.
 

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It's ... not debatable. Digimon was a game first. Furthermore, Tamagatchi are ALSO owned by Bandai- you could say that this is even more reason a virtual pet would be the character that Bandai would include.

"The Digital MonsterJPN is a digital pet released in 1997 by Bandai. This pet was a masculine counterpart to the Tamagotchi, which was deemed more appropriate for girls.[1] It spawned the Digimon franchise. It was similar to earlier virtual pets with the distinctions of being a fighting pet that could connect with others like it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Monster_(virtual_pet)


What you have stated, JudgeHeihachi JudgeHeihachi , is just an opinion. The facts are the facts and should not be convoluted- if ROB is a video game, then a Digimon is a video game character. There isn't room to interpret.
I'm sure @Graizen would have even more to add.
So digital pets started as a video game, but Digimon was the anime based on it. If the games were based on the video game wouldn't they be called digital pets? Either way, it's hard to argue that any current Digimon content actually has anything to do with the digital pets. It's all based on the anime, which couldn't be more different. Like I said, I think there's a solid chance they would count, but it's not as clear cut as you make it sound.
 

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So digital pets started as a video game, but Digimon was the anime based on it. If the games were based on the video game wouldn't they be called digital pets? Either way, it's hard to argue that any current Digimon content actually has anything to do with the digital pets. It's all based on the anime, which couldn't be more different. Like I said, I think there's a solid chance they would count, but it's not as clear cut as you make it sound.
I think that's a bit absurd. The link (meaning, connection) is presented in front of you, and instead of accepting it, you deny it?
Jumpman is Mario, even though he was never called Mario in the series.
The entire premise of Digimon is based on the devices, and the characters are the same.

Did you even read the rest of the article- on Wikipedia alone? Where it continues to call the entire virtual line "Digimon," and explain how the games evolved? Have you seen the anime- which clearly takes on direct connection of the characters (not just the stages, but the actual digivice itself being the fighter pets?) Are you just arguing to argue, or did you actually think about what youre saying?

It's completely clear cut. Digimon Pendulum are the sequel to the toys above, and it's the same series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhOYgy8vjlQ

This isn't an opinion. You cannot change it into your opinion. There isn't any sway for this. Digimon = video game origin.
 

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I think that's a bit absurd. The link (meaning, connection) is presented in front of you, and instead of accepting it, you deny it?
Jumpman is Mario, even though he was never called Mario in the series.
The entire premise of Digimon is based on the devices, and the characters are the same.

Did you even read the rest of the article- on Wikipedia alone? Where it continues to call the entire virtual line "Digimon," and explain how the games evolved? Have you seen the anime- which clearly takes on direct connection of the characters (not just the stages, but the actual digivice itself being the fighter pets?) Are you just arguing to argue, or did you actually think about what youre saying?

It's completely clear cut. Digimon Pendulum are the sequel to the toys above, and it's the same series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhOYgy8vjlQ

This isn't an opinion. You cannot change it into your opinion. There isn't any sway for this. Digimon = video game origin.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
 

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I'm kinda hoping that at some point, we'll get Tekken for Switch. Speaking of Tekken, in case anybody's interested, I added some details to my Tekken 1-Tag Tournament 1 remake petition, and I added Tekken 4 in it. I'm thinking that the Tekken 4 remake should not only be a remake, but also a soft reboot of the Tekken series. Check it out here: https://www.change.org/p/bandai-nam...ament-1-and-tekken-4-for-arcades-and-consoles
Also, I found a petition for a remake of Tekken 3 that somebody else made. I know petitions don’t necessarily always work, and I know THIS is unlikely to happen, but a guy can dream. And besides, you never know what the outcome might be. Anyway, here it is: https://www.change.org/p/bandai-namco-remake-tekken-3
 
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I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I'll agree that you disagree, and even drop the conversation;
but if you call the sky a tree, I can't let you leave the room with the impression that it's an opinion.
I have quoted multiple sources showing you Digital Monsters are Digimon, which begat the series.
Greymon is in the original devices.
You have only given me that you disagree.

I'm kinda hoping that at some point, we'll get Tekken for Switch. Speaking of Tekken, in case anybody's interested, I added some details to my Tekken 1-Tag Tournament 1 remake petition, and I added Tekken 4 in it. I'm thinking that the Tekken 4 remake should not only be a remake, but also a soft reboot of the Tekken series. Check it out here: https://www.change.org/p/bandai-nam...ament-1-and-tekken-4-for-arcades-and-consoles
Also, I found a petition for a remake of Tekken 3 that somebody else made. I know petitions don’t necessarily always work, and I know THIS is unlikely to happen, but a guy can dream. And besides, you never know what the outcome might be. Anyway, here it is: https://www.change.org/p/bandai-namco-remake-tekken-3
I would greatly appreciate Tekken on the Switch. I bought the version that came out for the Wii U (which as far as I know is the only one on any Nintendo system), and it was... well...
1- a letdown, because the game itself never seemed that fun (but that could be my experience alone)
2- amazing to have the costumes and Mario gimmicks. I'd love to see that leaned into more.
 
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