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The King of Iron Fist - Heihachi Mishima

kirbsmash

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How do you mean? There are no overlapping characters, and we already had overlapping series.
Think it this way; All stars has an Mishima, and Smash does too. (The best part is that Kaz hasn't made an appearance here at all, Jin does, only as an icon though.) The two hates each other so much that I like to think that Kaz joined Smash out of spite for his father.

(Also, you're talking about metal gear, right?)
 

pupNapoleon

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Think it this way; All stars has an Mishima, and Smash does too. (The best part is that Kaz hasn't made an appearance here at all, Jin does, only as an icon though.) The two hates each other so much that I like to think that Kaz joined Smash out of spite for his father.

(Also, you're talking about metal gear, right?)
Yeah, I'm talking about Metal Gear.
I'm just not sure how this counts any more than that- but whatever makes you happy dude, that's a terrific thing.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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What's your guess which spirit class Heihachi's spirit would have? He deserves a Legendary 4 star spirit but those are usually reserved for support spirits only on those DLC boards and I think they would want to make Heihachi a primary spirit to be able to equip a Mii Brawler wearing a Heihachi Mii costume with it so I think an Ace rank 3 star spirit is more likely.

And which other Tekken characters could you see ending up as spirits for Kazuya's spirit board?

The actual reaction is so I could compare how All Stars does their moveset for Heihachi vs Smash with Kazyua.
PS All Stars remapped his moves to the normal layout of that game's controls while Smash seems to try to imitate Tekken's limb system by splitting punch and kick moves to A and B as some have noticed the small glimpse of Kazuya's moveset seems to feature two different down air moves. If that turns out to be true Kazuya could have the most unique implementation of any Smash character yet.
 

pupNapoleon

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What's your guess which spirit class Heihachi's spirit would have? He deserves a Legendary 4 star spirit but those are usually reserved for support spirits only on those DLC boards and I think they would want to make Heihachi a primary spirit to be able to equip a Mii Brawler wearing a Heihachi Mii costume with it so I think an Ace rank 3 star spirit is more likely.
Source Gaming has convinced me that someone like True Ogre, or another of the final bosses (though he does stand out most in my memories of Tekken) is the choice for Legendary.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Source Gaming has convinced me that someone like True Ogre, or another of the final bosses (though he does stand out most in my memories of Tekken) is the choice for Legendary.
Definitely a good choice although I'd like to see True Ogre to be evolved from an Ancient Ogre spirit but this seems to be possible now as someone else noted Malos from Pyra's spirit board was finally a 4 star primary spirit. So Heihachi could in theory be a four star spirit too as Pyra's spirit board had two 4 star spirits.

How about Devil from tekken 2
Derp!
The Devil from back then has more or less been retconned from a seperate being that possessed Kazuya to something inseperable from him due to his devil gene. I'm sure we could see a Devil Kazuya spirit though from his ultimate form at the end of Tekken 7's story mode
 
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Megadoomer

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Seeing as Malos and Pneuma were both four star spirits released with the same character, it's possible that we could get more than one. (Rex was a third Legend spirit added in the same update, but he was gotten through enhancing Rex rather than having his own spirit battle, so I'm not sure if that counts)

Don't know how likely it is (since I think that's the only case of that happening with these updates), but I could see them going all-out with Tekken since it's a Namco-Bandai franchise and they're helping with the development of the game. (given how many characters Tekken has, maybe we could get three pages? I found it tough to limit Tekken to 16 characters or less when I tried coming up with ideas for spirits, and I left out a bunch of major characters who were added after Tekken 2 or 3)
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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Seeing as Malos and Pneuma were both four star spirits released with the same character, it's possible that we could get more than one. (Rex was a third Legend spirit added in the same update, but he was gotten through enhancing Rex rather than having his own spirit battle, so I'm not sure if that counts)

Don't know how likely it is (since I think that's the only case of that happening with these updates), but I could see them going all-out with Tekken since it's a Namco-Bandai franchise and they're helping with the development of the game. (given how many characters Tekken has, maybe we could get three pages? I found it tough to limit Tekken to 16 characters or less when I tried coming up with ideas for spirits, and I left out a bunch of major characters who were added after Tekken 2 or 3)
Hoping for it to have 13 which are the current max.
I think at least 10 are a safe bet as a fighting game lives because of its many characters so it makes sense to include as many of them as possible and the rights for these characters should be easy to acquire with Namco developing Smash and Sakurai's and Harada's close frienship.

While I admit I am more biased towards the characters introduced during the PS1 trilogy, it would feel pretty outdated to only focus on them and popular characters of later entries should also be included. Putting this kind of bias aside makes it hard for me to pin it down on around 10 that could be chosen. There are some obvious ones such as Heihachi, Jin, Nina, and Paul but everything else could go either way. If they focus on popular characters, they could use Yoshimitsu, King, Law, Kuma, Jack, Xiaoyu, Hwoarang, Asuka, and Lili but if they focus on plot importance it would rather be characters such as Lars, Alisa, Jun, Lee, or Anna as those have some direct involvement with certain main character's arcs. Lars and Alisa were the real protagonist of Tekken 6. Jun had an affair with Kazuya and is Jin's mother, Lee is Heihachi's adopted son and led an important competitor to the Mishima Zaibatsu, Anna being one of Kazuya's more recurring employees and sister and rival of Nina who is the only Tekken character to get a spin-off on their own.

Then there are also plot-important characters who only appeared in one main game like the bosses Kazumi, Ogre, Jinpachi, or Azazel. Ogre being the most memorable of this bunch that could also make for a cool evolveable spirit. Jun actually also appeared in only one main game.

I guess my favorite line-up would be:
  • Heihachi Mishima
  • Jin Kazama (can evolve into Devil Jin)
  • Paul Phoenix
  • Nina Williams
  • Marshall Law
  • Yoshimitsu
  • King
  • Jack
  • Kuma
  • Lee Chaolan
  • Xiaoyu & Panda
  • Asuka & Lili
  • Lars & Alisa
  • Ancient Ogre (can evolve into True Ogre)
I know these are probably too many and I already grouped some of them together as one spirit but this would be my take on it tyring to prioritize on both important and popular characters. Either Michelle Chang or Julia Chang should probably take a place on the spirit board too to have all of the original 8 (or a replacement character) somehow represented in the game.
 

pupNapoleon

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Seeing as Malos and Pneuma were both four star spirits released with the same character, it's possible that we could get more than one. (Rex was a third Legend spirit added in the same update, but he was gotten through enhancing Rex rather than having his own spirit battle, so I'm not sure if that counts)

Don't know how likely it is (since I think that's the only case of that happening with these updates), but I could see them going all-out with Tekken since it's a Namco-Bandai franchise and they're helping with the development of the game. (given how many characters Tekken has, maybe we could get three pages? I found it tough to limit Tekken to 16 characters or less when I tried coming up with ideas for spirits, and I left out a bunch of major characters who were added after Tekken 2 or 3)
I took the reason for two legendary Pythra spirits to be based on having two actual characters (80 and 81 I think) as an entry.
 

Megadoomer

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This was my guess for the spirits list, which I posted in the Kazuya thread:
  • Kazuya (two fighter spirits, since that's usually how it works when a character has a full alternate costume - though Sephiroth was an exception, and Zombie and Enderman are normal spirits, so I'm not 100% sure)
  • Heihachi
  • Jin (these two seem obvious, since it seems like they'd be in the running for playable character status)
  • Nina Williams
  • Paul Phoenix
  • Yoshimitsu (much like Heihachi, those three have been in every Tekken game, so I feel like they'll get spirits here as well)
  • King
  • Kuma (while they've technically been replaced between Tekken 2 and 3, some version of Kuma and King have been in every Tekken game)
  • Jun Kazama (she has ties to Kazuya)
  • some form of Jack
  • one of the Laws (Marshall or Forest - looking at their lists of appearances, I'd guess Marshall)
  • either Michelle Chang or Julia Chang (I'm guessing that they're going to include the Tekken 1 starting roster or at least their substitutes)
  • Lee Chaolan
  • Anna Williams
  • Lei Wulong
  • Devil (Tekken) (I'm guessing this one would be the legend spirit)
Even then, I felt like I missed plenty of characters - Eddy Gordo, Asuka, Lili, Alisa Bosconovitch, Mokujin, Jinpachi Mishima, Ogre... That's why part of me is hoping that Tekken gets three pages worth of spirits (more than 16) - there are a ton of characters in the series.

Out of that list, I feel the most confident about the characters that I listed between Heihachi and Kuma, including those two. (all of them but Jin have been in every Tekken game in some form, and Jin's one of the characters who would be in the running for the playable Tekken character in Smash)
 
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Flyboy

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I'm hoping for a Lars/Alisa duo spirit, or at least Lars with a Spirit battle that has an Alisa stand-in as a partner. Tag 2 is my favorite Tekken game and they were my main team, and Alisa is my current main.

I predict that they'll stick with Tekken 1-3, probably with a 3 focus since that was THE breakout Tekken game, but I hope they include some modern fan favorites too.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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This was my guess for the spirits list, which I posted in the Kazuya thread:
  • Kazuya (two fighter spirits, since that's usually how it works when a character has a full alternate costume - though Sephiroth was an exception, and Zombie and Enderman are normal spirits, so I'm not 100% sure)
  • Heihachi
  • Jin (these two seem obvious, since it seems like they'd be in the running for playable character status)
  • Nina Williams
  • Paul Phoenix
  • Yoshimitsu (much like Heihachi, those three have been in every Tekken game, so I feel like they'll get spirits here as well)
  • King
  • Kuma (while they've technically been replaced between Tekken 2 and 3, some version of Kuma and King have been in every Tekken game)
  • Jun Kazama (she has ties to Kazuya)
  • some form of Jack
  • one of the Laws (Marshall or Forest - looking at their lists of appearances, I'd guess Marshall)
  • either Michelle Chang or Julia Chang (I'm guessing that they're going to include the Tekken 1 starting roster or at least their substitutes)
  • Lee Chaolan
  • Anna Williams
  • Lei Wulong
  • Devil (Tekken) (I'm guessing this one would be the legend spirit)
Even then, I felt like I missed plenty of characters - Eddy Gordo, Asuka, Lili, Alisa Bosconovitch, Mokujin, Jinpachi Mishima, Ogre... That's why part of me is hoping that Tekken gets three pages worth of spirits (more than 16) - there are a ton of characters in the series.

Out of that list, I feel the most confident about the characters that I listed between Heihachi and Kuma, including those two. (all of them but Jin have been in every Tekken game in some form, and Jin's one of the characters who would be in the running for the playable Tekken character in Smash)
That seems like a possible list too. I agree I hope they'll put in as many spirits and also as many music tracks as possible. While I doubt we'll see an SNK scenario with the music again I still hope Namco being involved in Smash's development directly will make licensing music comparatively easier than with other companies. Tekken has so many good songs that it would be wasted potential to only limit themselves down to 10 songs.
The music section is definitely what I am the most nervous about in anticipation of the Sakurai Presents. I could either see my wishlist come true or be underwhelmed haha.
 

Megadoomer

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Heihachi wound up being the Legend spirit battle for Kazuya's spirit board. (Devil Jin is presumably also a Legend spirit, but he's unlocked by enhancing Jin's spirit once that reaches level 99) There were less spirits than I expected - only ten. (thirty-nine songs, though)
 

Flyboy

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The song selection is awesome! Of course they'll never have all my favorites, but I LOVE that we got the sheep stage theme. So cool that Heihachi gets the Legend status, too. Plus it turns out they really did give Kazuya the EWGF! Mishima style represent!!
 
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JudgeHeihachi

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Heihachi wound up being the Legend spirit battle for Kazuya's spirit board. (Devil Jin is presumably also a Legend spirit, but he's unlocked by enhancing Jin's spirit once that reaches level 99) There were less spirits than I expected - only ten. (thirty-nine songs, though)
Yes I really really love that we got this many songs! I'm a little bummed about no additional Tekken Mii Costumes especially the lack of either King, Paul, or Yoshimitsu as those all have iconic looks that would have made for great Mii customization but I'm willing to accept this setback because we got so many great songs. Spirits could have been more but I didn't expect too much as I rarely use them anyway.

The song selection is awesome! Of course they'll never have all my favorites, but I LOVE that we got the sheep stage theme. So cool that Heihachi gets the Legend status, too. Plus it turns out they really did give Kazuya the EWGF! Mishima style represent!!
Yeah it has most of my absolute favorite songs from when I made that 50 song selection for the Heihachi moveset. It got Chicago Night, Emotionless Passion, Be in the Mirror, T3 Jin theme, T3 Heihachi theme, T3 Hwoarang theme, TTT main theme, Kitsch, Bit Crusher, Moonlit Wilderness, Poolside, Dist thins out, Karma, Plucking Tulips, Heat Haze Shadow, Moonsiders 1st, and Desperate Struggle.
The only favorite I am really missing here is Xiaoyu's TTT theme which is funky and Black Winter Night Sky which didn't have that much of a chance anyway because Namco does not seem to see it as fighting music as it's not included in the Tekken 7 Tekken Tunes feature but can still be heard when viewing the Tekken 2 opening theme in Tekken 7's movie viewer.
 

JudgeHeihachi

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Now that we got his son, are y;all happy with the way they did tekken? I sure as hell am.
I am more than happy how everything turned out! He is so much fun to play, his moveset has perfectly translated into Smash and every move feels so satisfying to pull off and land a hit, double so if it's one of his more complex moves. I love the way he was implemented to have his A-attacks all have low knockback to keep the opponent close at bay for some more easy to land combo damage and have the Smash- and B-attacks be more typical stuff you would see in a Smash moveset.
All the content he brought with such as the great stage with a unique mechanic or the awesome music collection of nearly 40 songs and the spirit battles were all top-notch additions to the game too. I wish we had gotten some more Tekken Mii Costumes too. Overall the Tekken series is perfectly represented in Smash now and I wouldn't want it any other way.
 

Flyboy

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Now that we got his son, are y;all happy with the way they did tekken? I sure as hell am.
Absolutely! I may like the old man just a bit more, but the feel of Tekken has been perfectly replicated down to the change of camera angles, the amazing music selection, and how satisfying each hit is to pull off. They even let Heihachi be a stage cameo (and picked HIS dojo) and a legend spirit, AND brought back his young form as a costume - not a bad "consolation prize". Plus, the devil gene mechanics and Mishima style both being represented allow us to have the best of what makes the Mishima blood feud so fun and interesting. I LOVE hitting people with Kazuya's low kick and sending them flying.

I'm delighted that Tekken made it into Smash after all this time. It's so funny that when we learned that Nintendo was picking the DLC people got concerned, but it turns out that them calling the shots lead to this outcome.
 

pupNapoleon

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I am more than happy.
Sure, I would have loved a few Tekken Costumes for Mii's, and a bit more selection in the Spirits...
but ultimately I rarely use either of those, so the Stage, Music, Character, and specialties (camera angles, gameplay, victory screen, etc) make me delighted.
I'd classify this as Sakurai doing better than what I had envisioned for Tekken, as I would have been the dope who chose Heihachi. That would have been fine, but getting the Devil Gene included is absolutely even better. Four for you, Sakurai- you go, Sakurai!
 

JudgeHeihachi

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As Kazuya has given us a framework how Tekken characters are implemented in Smash, he can be used as a rough template how other Tekken characters could work too. Last year I made a Heihachi moveset and while I predicted a few things correctly such as back-tilts or crouch attacks going to be a thing or that the crouch dash input would be simplified as a Shoryuken input with A and B button follow-ups, I was also off with a few things. So after Kazuya got in, I was interested in updating the old moveset to keep it in line with the Smash standards set by Kazuya.
Heihachi shares around 1/3 of his moves with Kazuya with some other moves also being very similar so he could be classified as a pseudo-clone or even semi-clone depending on the definition.

Here is what I came up with to keep the moveset in accordance with Kazuya's Smash iteration:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hGbx5xV3OmOn5iWuaBZQDsKlC1ZKJIvX/view

All of this was again made possible by the great artworks of DeZapurified who again did all the art with a lot of new moves and some more frames to old moves added.
I'd be interested in any kind of opinon or feedback on this moveset concept and how it compares to Kazuya.
 
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