The Imperial Legion, MD/VA crew. Xanadu Tuesdays, Legionary Wednesdays

[Bandit]

League of Legends

Spoiler

Wedding

=====

Edit: Why so quiet?

Edit2: New Sig Test

 

[cmart]

I dunno. I'm working this sat so any smash I do will have to be later on sat/sun (I'm still very much game, just can't drive down to say Oliver's friday night or anything)

 

[Bandit]

Let me know if there are any LoL games tonight. I am good after 8 maybe even a bit before that.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I dunno. I'm working this sat so any smash I do will have to be later on sat/sun (I'm still very much game, just can't drive down to say Oliver's friday night or anything)

Shouldn't be an issue, I can travel up this weekend. I don't have anything stopping me.

Let me know if there are any LoL games tonight. I am good after 8 maybe even a bit before that.

It's bowling night tonight, so I won't be able to play tonight considering I'll probably be back home at 12:30ish. I'm sure Seb will be on though so you can play some with him.

 

[JCaesar]

If you wanna come up this weekend you can definitely stay here. Sadly Bandit won't be around.

Depending on who else is coming, maybe we could break out the ole DQ9, or keep plodding along in NSMBW. And of course Smash.

 

[Bandit]

it's BOWLING night tonight

so JELLY right now!!

 

[Deleted member]

Shouldn't be an issue, I can travel up this weekend. I don't have anything stopping me.



It's bowling night tonight, so I won't be able to play tonight considering I'll probably be back home at 12:30ish. I'm sure Seb will be on though so you can play some with him.

if you're going somewhere, can i tag along? i've had some fierce wanderlust lately and i have that craving to ruin friendships with zelda. she does that.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

If you wanna come up this weekend you can definitely stay here. Sadly Bandit won't be around.

Depending on who else is coming, maybe we could break out the ole DQ9, or keep plodding along in NSMBW. And of course Smash.

Sounds like a plan. I'll let you know when I'm heading over, cause I've got a "date" tomorrow at 4:30 (IE she's interested in me but I'm not that interested in her).

so JELLY right now!!

Why you jelly though?

if you're going somewhere, can i tag along? i've had some fierce wanderlust lately and i have that craving to ruin friendships with zelda. she does that.

Absolutely. We haven't hung out in forever.

 

[Deleted member]

if i had my way, you and adam would pick me up, and we'd go back to brett's house and meet with the rest of the crew again.

and then in this fantasy, i have a cot with a real pillow and ryoko doesn't whoop my *** with ZSS every match.

while i'm making wishes, we should go to buffalo wild wings and someone should pay for me. you guys have no idea how much money i don't have. school isn't helping.

and no one should troll me with wario. seriously, **** wario.

 

[quinnydinny]

This man can dream. I'll be staying in Fairfax this weekend though. I need to get some things in order before I move.

 

[Yeroc]

You guys are making me wish I had the money and time to come up there again.

 

[cmart]

Inviting Plank to tomorrow. We should see if CTL or Wenzel are available too.

 

[Deleted member]

Inviting Plank to tomorrow. We should see if CTL or Wenzel are available too.

awesome. <3 plank.

adam i tire of your impotence. your lack testicular fortitude could only be described as limp and of poor performance both in pants and spirit. called out/10.

 

[quinnydinny]

Error 77374: Improper stimuli. For best result use with hot women.

 

[Plairnkk]

are u guys at jcaez now? i wanna come by

 

[JCaesar]

TH and Mow are coming around 3 and cmart should be here any time now. Come on over! Remember how to get here?

 

[Plairnkk]

i do not remember exactly ...and i dont have ur number in my new phone. my number is 2404059705...shoot me a pm back or text/call me and ill head out shortly

 

[GHNeko]

hype for stream

i want to see mow and plank reformat JCz robot ***

 

[JCaesar]

Mow spent most of the afternoon raging about my robot

 

[GHNeko]

it wasnt on stream!?

 

[Bandit]

When Joe Flacco plays like Joe Flacco...

Ravens > World

When Joe Flacco plays like Joe Flacco...

Ravens < Dolphins

Oddly, both statements are true.

 

[Plairnkk]

peefin me off

 

[Deleted member]

no seriously rob is really stupid.

rob ike and snake need some work. all of the other chars looked good.

 

[CTL17]

no seriously rob is really stupid.

rob ike and snake need some work. all of the other chars looked good.

What about ROB is stupid? I don't really like the laser UAir, but that's because I liked the old UAir a lot. Maybe put that as USmash instead or something, since I don't seem to be able to imagine good setups to USmash other than DThrow or the old UAir.

 

[cmart]

I was about to make a crack about Jon getting peef'd on the vid JCz uploaded to youtube.... but then he started uploading vid after vid of me getting peef'd. Way to preemptively stop my trolling Brett : D

 

[GHNeko]

D3 > ROB tho.

 

[JCaesar]

I was about to make a crack about Jon getting peef'd on the vid JCz uploaded to youtube.... but then he started uploading vid after vid of me getting peef'd. Way to preemptively stop my trolling Brett : D

I just uploaded what we saved. A lot of those were of DK wrecking **** though because he always does it so awesomely.

 

[CTL17]

D3 > ROB tho.

I read that as "Diablo 3" > ROB. If we were talking about quality of games… then that would probably be undisputed, ignoring trolls.

Speaking of DayDuhDay/DehDehDeh, I don't recall that much being done to him either. Not that I absolutely care, since he was the only character in vBrawl I didn't really like playing as.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Diablo 3 does > ROB. I'm pretty sure that's undisputed fact.

I do have some insight as to why Mow says that ROB needs nerfing, but I'm sure he can drive his points home better than I can if he so choses to.

 

[TheTantalus]

Dedede is one of the few characters in Brawl I always love playing. I also like him in PM

So looks like Joe Falco proved his worth this week after all. Ravens division to lose at this point, Steelers are uphill from here.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah especially with the Bengals having a surprisingly good record. AFC North best division in the NFL, for real.

 

[Deleted member]

What about ROB is stupid? I don't really like the laser UAir, but that's because I liked the old UAir a lot. Maybe put that as USmash instead or something, since I don't seem to be able to imagine good setups to USmash other than DThrow or the old UAir.

rob has the same problem in PM that metaknight has in brawl in that he's lacking a character-based weakness such that he can only be exploited by a limited number of characters. being a well-rounded vanilla character is fine, but he's packing many strengths that keep him from vanilla status. I'll go over some of them:

- good dashgrab, dashdance grab, crouch grab, and shieldgrab. typically even the best characters of any smash game are missing one of these. rob has all four, which is helped along with an excellent dash, good weight, excellent grab range, and a large shield.
- good recovery. while exploitable to some extent, there's a lot to be said for what is essentially 3 shots to 2nd jump sweetspot the edge (the safest recovery the game offers). on the opponents side, recovery against rob can be tricky due to lasers, the gyro, and repeated forward airs akin to melee jigglypuff. yes they're more limited, but it's still a very strong edge guard game.
- ability to cheat aerial positioning. a normal character in smash can only fall at a certain range of trajectories, and can attempt to defeat juggling strategies with this range, a second jump, and an air dodge. rob doesn't have to challenge a proper juggle attempt, he can simply wait for the opponent to intercept him, and then boost to a side and cover his escape with bair. essentially the juggling character cannot pin rob with juggling, because he can no longer commit to a jump and expect to catch rob. the inability for the juggler to juggle defeats the purpose of trying to do it, as it will most likely not work. therefore, any attempt to gain aerial positioning on rob, and thus some advantage, is effectively negated. on top of this, rob is large and thus prone to combos, but is also very floaty so he doesn't get screwed by things like sheik's chaingrab, and things like throw > kill move combos (ex. fox's upthrow upair) don't work.
- good normals (A moves). i don't know the specific character data, but i watched brett play rob closely in person and on youtube today to confirm it, but for the most rob's moves don't directly lose priority clashes. rob's good crouch only reinforces this point, but if a player always expects their moves to lose a priority contest, that player will find some other method to defeat the character.

but because of the things i've already mentioned, there are no outs against the character overall. so let's start with a normal match. you go to attack rob, but his big shield, good dashdance, grabbing, and excellent A moves defeat that idea. you go to try grabbing instead, but using these same tools you are defeated again on this front. despite playing a losing game, you successfully grab and throw rob, but he is heavy but for some reason naturally avoids or minimizes the damage by these combos. so you attempt a juggle, but he can escape them reliably. at this point your best answer to rob is to not fight him in the first place, so you camp him with projectiles. rob is no slouch at projectile use himself, but let's ignore that. some characters can camp him out with lasers, boomerangs, etc. the best strategy i found was marth spamming fair, which is essentially the same thing. I also tried falco, so i could shoot lasers to avoid rob's A moves and grab game, and shine to avoid his shield game. i then found out that rob can chaingrab falco. i then went to a stage with platforms instead of FD, and DI'd the throw onto the platform, but rob can go under the platform and his uptilt can cover the entire thing. you get the idea.

i don't think rob is too good or the best character, but he is broken in the frame that he breaks normal gameplay. like metaknight in brawl, you never really leverage a positional advantage on him, you don't want to contest his moves, and many of his matches should be decided from the character selection screen based solely on whether the character you picked can circumvent his strongest aspects outright. the only time you can really "have" rob is by player error or during his recovery. but you're supposed to have an advantage during an opponents recovery, and even then he shouldn't be doing it often because of his weight, floatiness, and resilience to some of the better throw combos. largely his extra weight and big shield and large grab range lends a lot to his crouch game and ability to survive and punish opposing attacks, even if rob is in an odd spot to defend them, giving the player a lot of room for error to play poorly and still win.

i was able to find no character holes on rob's side, only holes that could be created by the opponent. a character hole is a reference point for a match-up and lends some idea of weakness to a character. for example, melee sheik has a weakness in that she has poor approaching. she is also weak in that falco can combo her well. while rob might have difficult match-ups, he does not have any implicit weakness to his character. the best i could find is that he is big and is probably prone to more 2-3 hit combos. it was this lack of weakness, backed by numerous relevant strengths that makes me dislike the character. i don't dislike the individual parts, and i didn't see any one thing that was too good about the character. but the sum of those parts is a different matter entirely.

of course, rob can still lose if the opponent outplays the rob player, but why would you want to rely on that? having to outplay the opposing player is what constitutes a bad match-up in the first place.

 

[quinnydinny]

rob has the same problem in PM that metaknight has in brawl in that he's lacking a character-based weakness such that he can only be exploited by a limited number of characters. being a well-rounded vanilla character is fine, but he's packing many strengths that keep him from vanilla status. I'll go over some of them:

- good dashgrab, dashdance grab, crouch grab, and shieldgrab. typically even the best characters of any smash game are missing one of these. rob has all four, which is helped along with an excellent dash, good weight, excellent grab range, and a large shield.
- good recovery. while exploitable to some extent, there's a lot to be said for what is essentially 3 shots to 2nd jump sweetspot the edge (the safest recovery the game offers). on the opponents side, recovery against rob can be tricky due to lasers, the gyro, and repeated forward airs akin to melee jigglypuff. yes they're more limited, but it's still a very strong edge guard game.
- ability to cheat aerial positioning. a normal character in smash can only fall at a certain range of trajectories, and can attempt to defeat juggling strategies with this range, a second jump, and an air dodge. rob doesn't have to challenge a proper juggle attempt, he can simply wait for the opponent to intercept him, and then boost to a side and cover his escape with bair. essentially the juggling character cannot pin rob with juggling, because he can no longer commit to a jump and expect to catch rob. the inability for the juggler to juggle defeats the purpose of trying to do it, as it will most likely not work. therefore, any attempt to gain aerial positioning on rob, and thus some advantage, is effectively negated. on top of this, rob is large and thus prone to combos, but is also very floaty so he doesn't get screwed by things like sheik's chaingrab, and things like throw > kill move combos (ex. fox's upthrow upair) don't work.
- good normals (A moves). i don't know the specific character data, but i watched brett play rob closely in person and on youtube today to confirm it, but for the most rob's moves don't directly lose priority clashes. rob's good crouch only reinforces this point, but if a player always expects their moves to lose a priority contest, that player will find some other method to defeat the character.

but because of the things i've already mentioned, there are no outs against the character overall. so let's start with a normal match. you go to attack rob, but his big shield, good dashdance, grabbing, and excellent A moves defeat that idea. you go to try grabbing instead, but using these same tools you are defeated again on this front. despite playing a losing game, you successfully grab and throw rob, but he is heavy but for some reason naturally avoids or minimizes the damage by these combos. so you attempt a juggle, but he can escape them reliably. at this point your best answer to rob is to not fight him in the first place, so you camp him with projectiles. rob is no slouch at projectile use himself, but let's ignore that. some characters can camp him out with lasers, boomerangs, etc. the best strategy i found was marth spamming fair, which is essentially the same thing. I also tried falco, so i could shoot lasers to avoid rob's A moves and grab game, and shine to avoid his shield game. i then found out that rob can chaingrab falco. i then went to a stage with platforms instead of FD, and DI'd the throw onto the platform, but rob can go under the platform and his uptilt can cover the entire thing. you get the idea.

i don't think rob is too good or the best character, but he is broken in the frame that he breaks normal gameplay. like metaknight in brawl, you never really leverage a positional advantage on him, you don't want to contest his moves, and many of his matches should be decided from the character selection screen based solely on whether the character you picked can circumvent his strongest aspects outright. the only time you can really "have" rob is by player error or during his recovery. but you're supposed to have an advantage during an opponents recovery, and even then he shouldn't be doing it often because of his weight, floatiness, and resilience to some of the better throw combos. largely his extra weight and big shield and large grab range lends a lot to his crouch game and ability to survive and punish opposing attacks, even if rob is in an odd spot to defend them, giving the player a lot of room for error to play poorly and still win.

i was able to find no character holes on rob's side, only holes that could be created by the opponent. a character hole is a reference point for a match-up and lends some idea of weakness to a character. for example, melee sheik has a weakness in that she has poor approaching. she is also weak in that falco can combo her well. while rob might have difficult match-ups, he does not have any implicit weakness to his character. the best i could find is that he is big and is probably prone to more 2-3 hit combos. it was this lack of weakness, backed by numerous relevant strengths that makes me dislike the character. i don't dislike the individual parts, and i didn't see any one thing that was too good about the character. but the sum of those parts is a different matter entirely.

of course, rob can still lose if the opponent outplays the rob player, but why would you want to rely on that? having to outplay the opposing player is what constitutes a bad match-up in the first place.

Wow this a long post.

 

[Yeroc]

I thought you knew Max. This is probably a pretty standard analysis from him.

 

[CTL17]

Max, I read the entire post twice. Since I do not anywhere near as much credibility you do, I am no position to try to refute any of your statements, but I will add a few statements, some may agree and some may disagree with your statements.

What was ROB's weakness in Brawl? I recall it was something like he had a blind spot at "5 and 7 o'clock" or something like that, basically below him, but not directly. Now I can imagine why this strategy will not work in P:M because as you said, he can cheat aerial positioning. Very quickly, too.

I only have two matchups against ROB that I can document: Falcon and Yoshi.
As Falcon, he's one of those extremes, so I feel like any argument with him is rather pointless.
There there's Yoshi. As I've found out from playing him, his multihitting attacks (BAir and DAir especially) shield stab extremely well (maybe too well), this nulling ROB's shielding game to an extent, but there's still the dash grab, which was my downfall during the last "tourney" match I played against him. As far as comboing ROB went with Yoshi, he doesn't have that many long combos against floaties to start with anyway.

I don't have a problem with ROB as much as I do with, say Din's Fire, but I do see your point, and I am curious about your position with the other characters from Brawl.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm curious as to what JC has to say.

 

[Deleted member]

i think ike and snake suck, but ike is the worse between the two. most of project m is very well balanced except a few things. rob isn't horribly imbalanced or too good, he just has certain characteristics that say change character or go home. for example, i'd really like to see a character that doesn't have answers to rob's many attributes try to fight him, like how is luigi supposed to fight rob? sheik/ganon can be the same way with downthrow chaingrabs, but for rob it's a combination of many things and those things cover each other. sheik and ganon also have weaknesses themselves.

in teams rob's natural attributes suggest that he would still be stupid good, being able to direct the flow of battle, control opponents while not being controlled himself. i don't think there's anything as good as zelda in teams though, although i could just be very biased toward zelda.

while i'm posting my opinions, i think wario's stage is still stupid. having low long platforms on the bottom makes it very easy to camp the sides for characters that can take advantage of it. but since i haven't seen anyone do it yet i suppose it remains to be seen.

credibility has nothing to do with the strength of an argument. whatever you guys say i will try to understand and respect. i'm just a little wary about a character that has a strictly better ground game than sheik.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm curious on why you think Ike and Snake suck.

Especially Snake.

Can you elaborate.

I love reading your posts.

 

[Strong Badam]

When's the next smashfest? I'll visit you guys.

BTW Ike & Snake suck

 

[CTL17]

I tend to compare the new Brawl characters to Melee characters, according to the Melee character's strongest point. For example, Falcon's running speed is beaten by Sonic now, but Sonic's killing comboes are nowhere near as deadly as Falcon, so it balances out.
Wario, on the other hand, if stats remained from Brawl, has a faster aerial acceleration than Jigglypuff, who was King of that category in Melee. So if Wario still has better aerial acceleration, or even the same, Wario has a lot of advantages that Jigglypuff has and some even better, like Wario's "Jiggs BAir." I'd say shoulder tackle is much more useful than rollout, and fart could rival rest in terms of a quick killer that requires little setup. Wario doesn't have anywhere near as good of a recovery, but he's almost twice as heavy as Jigglypuff. Etc etc.
Rant on Wario aside that should probably be in the P:M main post, I just feel like all the Brawl characters (and non-top Melee characters) are getting too many various random tweaks, but that is a biased view considering everyone is used to what they used to be in Brawl.