The GtaN Brawl General discussion thread! -Wait, did the title change?

[Supreme Dirt]

I should hope so.

 

[infiniteV115]

BEWARE
****ING WALL OF TEXT

Specifically because this leads to numerous “automatic” chaingrabs, such as with Dedede and Falco, among many others, and locks, most notably Sheik’s FTilt lock. I just feel that these detract from the game as a whole, as the game is essentially being controlled specifically by one person.

Not true at all. The opponent also has control over this. They can avoid getting grabbed/f-tilted. And clearly avoiding these things isn't too much to ask, or else ICs would be first. But they're 7th. And Sheik is so low I don't even remember (23?24?).

Grab Releases
In 64 this didn’t exist, grabs always resulted in throws, and there was no pummeling. In Melee, by holding up, you could choose to air release, and by not doing so you would ground release. This put control in the hands of both players. In Brawl, however, if you are being held off of the ground you WILL air release, and for some characters with easily abused Air Grab Release animations, such as Metaknight, Wario, and Squirtle, this can result in chaingrabs or free kills, especially so in Wario’s case, where he constantly has to play around the idea of 1 grab = free 20%-30%. Though ground releases are far less problematic, as for the most part you can escape into the air, you cannot air release while in hitlag or hitstun. Some pummels, such as Marth’s or Charizard’s, keep a character in hitlag or hitstun the entire time if buffered. In the case of Ness or Lucas, who have longer than average ground release animations, this means they can be instantly regrabbed, though in Lucas case you must move forward. Again, grab releases for the most part put all control in the hands of a single player, which I view as detrimental to the game.

You haven't really said anything as to how air releases are a flaw in the game's design. You just said that they are problematic for some characters (and this only happens when you're getting grabbed by a character significantly taller/getting grabbed offstage). Yes, it's different from 64 and Melee, but that doesn't make it bad. They're just character features that happen to affect their metagame.

MK (AFAIK) only suffers from GR problems from Snake (ftilt, utilt I think), Marth (tipped fair/dair, fsmash/dsmash with SV's platform), ZSS (uair, DA, regrab and I think usmash) and Captain Falcon (uair). If there are any more, let me know, but there probably aren't MANY more. He can probably SL out of enough things.
Wario is probably affected a lot more by this (being a ZSS I know we have an infinite if he gets grabbed, though it's supposedly extremely hard), but again it's not necessarily a flaw, it's a feature. Yes it affects him negatively, but it's not to any significant degree (he's 6th). Besides, with Wario's unpredictability, great mobility, auto-cancelling aerials, small size, weight and great recover, he more than makes up for these.
Don't know anything about Squirtle except that ZSS has a GR CG on him, cause, you know, I play ZSS

As for ground releases, yeah Ness and Lucas suffer quite a bit. But it's not like that's the only thing holding them back. They have ****ty weight, bad ground games and lack reliable kill moves, and they can be edgeguarded quite easily (especially Ness).

Again, it doesn't put all the control into the hands of 1 player. Both players are in controls as the potential victim can avoid getting grabbed. Furthermore, you have control in the sense that you pick your character. If you're going to pick a character that gets ****ed over when they get grabbed, you deserve to get ****ed over when you get grabbed, because you chose a flawed character. Every character is flawed in some way, and they have to be flawed for the game to be competitive.

Tripping as a whole, including tripping induced by moves
Most people simply have an issue with random tripping.
1. A character has a 1% chance of tripping every time a dash is inputted. The dash animation does not actually have to come out, you simply have to have inputted a dash.

I agree with this, tripping is stupid. It's random and any sort of random element makes the game less viable for competitive play (unless the random event gives fair warning, eg PS1's transformations). With fair warning, all players have some sort of control over the situation, which is good. With tripping (no warning), NEITHER player has control (with the exception of choosing to run less, I guess) and THIS is detrimental to competitive play.

2. When hit with a move that does not move a character from the ground and does not cross the tumble threshold for knockback, there is an 11% chance of tripping.

Almost everybody has a move like this, so it's no big whoop. After you get tripped, all that matters is the follow-ups your opponent has, which depends on the character.
This mainly applies to jabs, and you shouldn't be getting jabbed often unless you're playing against an Ike or Falco or Weegee or something.

3. Many moves have an additional set chance to trip, ignoring their knockback. Such moves include notably Zelda’s and Metaknight’s DTilts.

Other than saying that it's random, you didn't really explain how this is a flaw. The randomness isn't even that significant. If you see that G&W pulling out his hammer, you can and SHOULD avoid it, because it might be a 9 (unless one of the previous 2 was a 9 of course). And with that G&W risks getting damage from a 1 (I think it's like 12%?). Furthermore, it has a LOT of startup lag, and getting a ****ty number/simply missing results in him getting punished. Thus, G&W can't really depend on judgement, and you can avoid it. Not a problem.
For all other random elements (Rosalina's items, DDD's side-b, Weegee's side-b), these moves all have their own risk to them and/or are quite avoidable by the opponent. I shouldn't have to explain DDD and Luigi, but for Rosalina; Beam Sword is slow, just don't shield against Mr. Saturn and he does like 1% then walks off the stage (lol), and Bob-ombs WOULD be broken if they didn't blow up after a certain amount of time, but they do. And you should be able to avoid it when it's thrown.

...Ok lol I read what you said again and realized I kinda went off topic, but the same thing applies to possible trip moves (MK's/Zelda's d-tilt, etc). If you know your opponents character has a move with some random aspect meaning it could POTENTIALLY **** you over if the random aspect kicks in, you should be striving to avoid that move. It isn't that hard. Again, like avoiding IC's grab.

4. The item Banana Peels will cause a grounded player that comes into contact with it to trip.

Yes, bananas cause you to trip. That's why they're really good items. And only Diddy has them, and they're not even broken. Again, if you know your opponent can do something that will really **** you over, you should be striving to avoid it.

Bananas can **** you over, that's why Diddy is good (he sucks otherwise). They can be used against him (lolIplayZSS )

Not a flaw, unless you're calling Diddy broken.

Not trying to be a **** or anything, I'm just trying to show you that the things you consider flaws in the game are really just things that you don't like, for whatever reason. The only thing here that was really a flaw in the game (in the competitive game) is the random chance of tripping on your own (ie not tripping because of a trip-causing move).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I dislike anything in the game which puts complete control over the match in a single player's hands. and I'm far from done with the list and explanations, just right now I'm on my Wii viewing swf... not exactly the easiest thing to post with.

Also I'm def not finished on why I hate tripping. I have something quite long I'm preparing.

 

[infiniteV115]

I have something quite long I'm preparing.

I've been waiting for you to say this for years.

 

[Tin Man]

I dislike anything in the game which puts complete control over the match in a single player's hands. and I'm far from done with the list and explanations, just right now I'm on my Wii viewing swf... not exactly the easiest thing to post with.

Also I'm def not finished on why I hate tripping. I have something quite long I'm preparing.

Do you like fighting games with comboes? Take MvC3 (as far as I know, you need to pray ur opponent ****'s up). I know in BlazBlue you get a Burst but that's it. Same thing with Guilty Gear (not too sure how that one works exactly). In 64 smash you can only SDI. In melee you can DI and SDI, so I guess melee gives some control. 64 to a much lesser extent. Iunno about SSF4. I think its not very combo heavy, but when you are gettin comboed, not sure what you can do to escape.

Anyways, I hope you got the point bro. Whats the answer .

 

[cMeDu]

Man why do people gotta complain bout this stuff, it's the game, just accept it

 

[infiniteV115]

Be quiet you MK main

 

[Tin Man]

Blue name ^_^

 

[Patches]

I think you're just on the hunt for colourful names now.

 

[Tin Man]

Not stopping till I get every pikmin colour! (and thanks for the congrats )

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Do you like fighting games with comboes? Take MvC3 (as far as I know, you need to pray ur opponent ****'s up). I know in BlazBlue you get a Burst but that's it. Same thing with Guilty Gear (not too sure how that one works exactly). In 64 smash you can only SDI. In melee you can DI and SDI, so I guess melee gives some control. 64 to a much lesser extent. Iunno about SSF4. I think its not very combo heavy, but when you are gettin comboed, not sure what you can do to escape.

Anyways, I hope you got the point bro. Whats the answer .

No, I don't. I largely pull the "64 is better" due to 1. nostalgia and 2. trolling people.
Oh also Yoshi is viable in it.

I haaaaaate street fighter and MvC3.

 

[Tin Man]

kk. I'll hit you up at my tourney next week and we'll talk about it .

 

[Crooked Crow]

Yoshi is mid tier, much more viable than his appearance in following games, but still not terrific.

 

[Toronto Joe]

any character that can hit you once is viable in n64

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah basically.

I like 64 more just for its simplicity than anything else tbh. That and people tend to take it far less seriously than Melee and Brawl.

As to the whole Brawl Minus issue... personally I love it, but I'm of the opinion that if they want to keep the hitstun, they should increase the DI angle.

 

[cMeDu]

jiggs is broken in brawl minus yeah jmo yeah

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Marth is broken in Brawl Minus.

Honestly, if they made all the stupid combos more escapable the game would improve like 1000x. At least you can airdodge out of tumble now, that's a step in the right direction.


Also for anyone who doesn't yet know, MK is banned and a Peach takes 4th.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

I wonder what we should be doing as a region, ruleset-wise.


*EDIT* WAIT, since when has Tin been BBRRC?

Oh god, I'm so tempted to boycott every tournament now on principle.

A pity I'm trash so it wouldn't matter.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

BEWARE
****ING WALL OF TEXT



Not true at all. The opponent also has control over this. They can avoid getting grabbed/f-tilted. And clearly avoiding these things isn't too much to ask, or else ICs would be first. But they're 7th. And Sheik is so low I don't even remember (23?24?).

Irrelevant. The fact that it exists at all I feel is detrimental to the game as a whole. Also Icies are entirely irrelevant, their CG is not based on lack of non-tumble DI.

You haven't really said anything as to how air releases are a flaw in the game's design. You just said that they are problematic for some characters (and this only happens when you're getting grabbed by a character significantly taller/getting grabbed offstage). Yes, it's different from 64 and Melee, but that doesn't make it bad. They're just character features that happen to affect their metagame.

MK (AFAIK) only suffers from GR problems from Snake (ftilt, utilt I think), Marth (tipped fair/dair, fsmash/dsmash with SV's platform), ZSS (uair, DA, regrab and I think usmash) and Captain Falcon (uair). If there are any more, let me know, but there probably aren't MANY more. He can probably SL out of enough things.
Wario is probably affected a lot more by this (being a ZSS I know we have an infinite if he gets grabbed, though it's supposedly extremely hard), but again it's not necessarily a flaw, it's a feature. Yes it affects him negatively, but it's not to any significant degree (he's 6th). Besides, with Wario's unpredictability, great mobility, auto-cancelling aerials, small size, weight and great recover, he more than makes up for these.
Don't know anything about Squirtle except that ZSS has a GR CG on him, cause, you know, I play ZSS

As for ground releases, yeah Ness and Lucas suffer quite a bit. But it's not like that's the only thing holding them back. They have ****ty weight, bad ground games and lack reliable kill moves, and they can be edgeguarded quite easily (especially Ness).

Again, it doesn't put all the control into the hands of 1 player. Both players are in controls as the potential victim can avoid getting grabbed. Furthermore, you have control in the sense that you pick your character. If you're going to pick a character that gets ****ed over when they get grabbed, you deserve to get ****ed over when you get grabbed, because you chose a flawed character. Every character is flawed in some way, and they have to be flawed for the game to be competitive.

People go on and on about Brawl being better because of no mindless combos, yet defend this kind of BS? Grab releases as far as I can see seem like some sort of artificial way of balancing characters. If you could simply choose whether to ground or air release, I'd be perfectly fine. But why would they fix something that wasn't broken?

I agree with this, tripping is stupid. It's random and any sort of random element makes the game less viable for competitive play (unless the random event gives fair warning, eg PS1's transformations). With fair warning, all players have some sort of control over the situation, which is good. With tripping (no warning), NEITHER player has control (with the exception of choosing to run less, I guess) and THIS is detrimental to competitive play.

Totally agree.

Almost everybody has a move like this, so it's no big whoop. After you get tripped, all that matters is the follow-ups your opponent has, which depends on the character.
This mainly applies to jabs, and you shouldn't be getting jabbed often unless you're playing against an Ike or Falco or Weegee or something.

Lol, it's not mostly jabs. Ever been tripped by a Ganon DAir?

Still, the simple fact that's it's an arbitrary 11% random chance... We're playing Brawl, not Pokémon. A game focussed around knowledge and skill, rather than knowledge and probability management.

Other than saying that it's random, you didn't really explain how this is a flaw. The randomness isn't even that significant. If you see that G&W pulling out his hammer, you can and SHOULD avoid it, because it might be a 9 (unless one of the previous 2 was a 9 of course). And with that G&W risks getting damage from a 1 (I think it's like 12%?). Furthermore, it has a LOT of startup lag, and getting a ****ty number/simply missing results in him getting punished. Thus, G&W can't really depend on judgement, and you can avoid it. Not a problem.
For all other random elements (Rosalina's items, DDD's side-b, Weegee's side-b), these moves all have their own risk to them and/or are quite avoidable by the opponent. I shouldn't have to explain DDD and Luigi, but for Rosalina; Beam Sword is slow, just don't shield against Mr. Saturn and he does like 1% then walks off the stage (lol), and Bob-ombs WOULD be broken if they didn't blow up after a certain amount of time, but they do. And you should be able to avoid it when it's thrown.

Rosalina is not a character in this game, your point is invalid >: (

Not a flaw, unless you're calling Diddy broken.

I am, actually. Not broken as in lol he beats the entire cast broken, broken as in design. I'll elaborate on this much later, I need some time to put it together.

Not trying to be a **** or anything, I'm just trying to show you that the things you consider flaws in the game are really just things that you don't like, for whatever reason. The only thing here that was really a flaw in the game (in the competitive game) is the random chance of tripping on your own (ie not tripping because of a trip-causing move).

No offense taken. People see different things as flaws in the game.

Big ****ing double post because I'm really really lazy right now.

 

[-Googs]

cruxis post the results thread you gypsy

 

[Patches]

Everytime I'm at work with a headset, and I go out of range, it says " Lane One "

However, I hear " Lain won! "

 

[infiniteV115]

Wait, lemme get this straight.

You: Lack of non-tumble DI results in things like DDD's and Falco's cgs, Sheik's ftilt lock, etc. These things are bad because they result in the game being controlled by one player.

Me: Not true. The game is controlled by the potential victim as well, as they can avoid being grabbed/ftilted.

You:

Irrelevant. The fact that it exists at all I feel is detrimental to the game as a whole.

That was completely relevant.
And you can feel however you like about this game, but until you back up that feeling, it's not a valid argument.

Also Icies are entirely irrelevant, their CG is not based on lack of non-tumble DI.

I know their CG is not based on lack of non-tumble DI.
The point of mentioning ICs was to defend my previous statement (that you can have control over the game by simply not getting grabbed). If you COULDN'T avoid getting grabbed, ICs would be first. But they're not first; they're seventh. Thus, it is evident that YOU CAN AVOID GETTING GRABBED.

People go on and on about Brawl being better because of no mindless combos, yet defend this kind of BS?

For the record, I never said anything that would even remotely imply that Brawl>Melee/64. I know you didn't accuse me of saying that, I'm just throwing it out there.
And, you did it again. You just took what I said and called it BS, and then moved on. If you feel that it's BS, explain, or else (again) it isn't a valid argument.

Grab releases as far as I can see seem like some sort of artificial way of balancing characters.

Care to explain? I don't get how it seems like it's meant to balance characters. Taller characters are more likely to air release you. Shorter characters are more likely to get air released. There are still bad characters that are tall, and good characters that are short. Doesn't seem like balancing to me, unless I'm way off from what you're trying to say. Explainplz.

If you could simply choose whether to ground or air release, I'd be perfectly fine. But why would they fix something that wasn't broken?

Don't think they were necessarily trying to fix the ground/air release mechanics from Melee, as they indeed were not broken. They just changed the mechanics so now it depends largely on height (and a couple of other things, in some cases). So, why are you not ok with ground/air releases being dependent on character height (and those other things at times)

Lol, it's not mostly jabs. Ever been tripped by a Ganon DAir?

Actually, I haven't. Didn't know that could happen.
And yeah, I guess tilts play a big part of it too. But again, if you know (which you should) some move has some sort of random chance to **** you over, whether it's a tilt or G&W's hammer or whatever, you should be striving to avoid this.
That said, I'll agree that this tripping (while it doesn't necessarily affect the metagame to any significant degree and can be avoided for the most part) is a flaw in the game's design, due to the fact that it's random.

Still, the simple fact that's it's an arbitrary 11% random chance... We're playing Brawl, not Pokémon. A game focussed around knowledge and skill, rather than knowledge and probability management.

See above.

I am, actually. Not broken as in lol he beats the entire cast broken, broken as in design. I'll elaborate on this much later, I need some time to put it together.

Don't understand. Perhaps we're using different definitions for the word 'broken'. When I say broken, I mean overpowered. Don't see how design can be overpowered if it doesn't make his metagame overpowered (since he doesn't beat the entire cast like MK does), but you said you'll elaborate so I'll listen to what you have to say.

 

[-Googs]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308954

 

[Cruxis]

hello everyone, i have come to very proudly present the GTA DRINKING GAME! coming soon to tourneys

the game is quite simple. below i have created the first phase of a drinking grid that we use for the drinking game.
every time a scenario in the drinking grid happens, we take a shot.


everyone please feel free to edit and add any scenarios to the drinking grid, i have already added a couple myself that may waste a few people already if they are light weights

but for champs like googs we are gonna need to fill this entire bitch

 

[-Googs]

This is so epic omg
please add

Gichan gets salty
googs does an infinite
Someone choses pictochat
Meek times someone out
Someone calls peachy a girl

 

[Cruxis]

V2

 

[-Googs]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH DEAD AT MARIK GETS BANNED

AHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

i think i just ripped my stiches open from laughing so hard omg ahahahhaha

 

[SRTM]

SRTM shows up at a tourney.
5 shots.

 

[Patches]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[Tin Man]

This is like the bingo thing that Decoy came up with lmao.

 

[Patches]

I've got some damn good ideas for it.

Ill work on it in the morning

 

[lain]

Everytime I'm at work with a headset, and I go out of range, it says " Lane One "

However, I hear " Lain won! "

why can't i 'like' this post. THIS SOME BULL****

 

[Supreme Dirt]

From what I can tell, we all want to like posts on smashboards.

I vote we petition whoever's in charge to get a feature like that.

Also lol at the drinking grid.

Also I just got up iv, I'll reply to you later.

 

[-Googs]

This is mprime. We should take a shot everytime someone trolls tinman, everytime cruxis has a roid rage moment, everytime guard touches another guy

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Lol that last one very well might cause the most drunkenness.

 

[Patches]

He'd probably do it more in hopes of getting us ****ed up, so he has a better chance.

 

[Gichan]

Everyone will be as drunk as googs if we were to drink to each moment. Crxis roid rage and my saltiness alone is like 20 drinks a tourney LOL.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'd say a drink every time I switch mains... but I've pretty much settled at this point.

 

[pidgezero_one]

jesus christ that is awesome

I'd say a drink every time I switch mains... but I've pretty much settled at this point.

ADD IT ANYWAY

 

[Tin Man]

He'd probably do it more in hopes of getting us ****ed up, so he has a better chance.

xD

 

[Gichan]

Someone mistakens googs' brother for googs