The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Visible hitbubble vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-R24V4LgM

The only things missing are tech & trip getup attacks (they weren't in the .pac), but meh, who cares.

Very handy, thanks.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Visible hitbubble vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-R24V4LgM

Good stuff. This also explains partly why Zelda isn't very good: she's one of the few characters in the game whose hitbubbles are exactly the size they should be compared to her attacks.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Good stuff. This also explains partly why Zelda isn't very good: she's one of the few characters in the game whose hitbubbles are exactly the size they should be compared to her attacks.

That's silly HSS. Size of the hitbubbles making Zelda bad is a silly notion. The reason why Zelda suffere is because of the start up lag and finishing lag on nearly all of her moves. Her jab is 11 frames I could be wrong but that maybe the slowest jab in the game. Let's not even bring up how grab speed oh and her walk and run speed also. The hitbubbles are fine.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

The hitbubbles are fine.

That's what I was saying. Her hitbubbles are exactly the size they should be. My comment was aimed as critisism for the characters like Snake whose hitbubbles make no sense at all and, more than anything, a joke.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

That's silly HSS. Size of the hitbubbles making Zelda bad is a silly notion. The reason why Zelda suffere is because of the start up lag and finishing lag on nearly all of her moves. Her jab is 11 frames I could be wrong but that maybe the slowest jab in the game. Let's not even bring up how grab speed oh and her walk and run speed also. The hitbubbles are fine.

Such a pity considering they made her moderately powerful. =/

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's what I was saying. Her hitbubbles are exactly the size they should be. My comment was aimed as critisism for the characters like Snake whose hitbubbles make no sense at all and, more than anything, a joke.

What's wrong with snakes hit boxes? I mean the range on his utilt is totally fine.

Spoiler

Ah I see sarcasm is hard to detect on the interwebz

 

[Fuujin]

Kayla is a full distance Farore's slightly faster than running across the stage?

 

[Fuujin]

Also I think Farores has 20 directions, not 16.

Edit: Even more than 20.

 

[AyatoK26]

Hey Kay, could you get a video of the difference in hitbubble area affected of a regular falling fair/bair/dair and a FF fair/bair/dair? I know hitting while FF'ing is more likely; I just want to know how more likely.

 

[KayLo!]

Kayla is a full distance Farore's slightly faster than running across the stage?

No. They're ~the same (running's prob slightly faster), but FW = more telegraphed and stuck in stationary lag on both ends.

Also, I'm not Kayla. x.o

Also I think Farores has 20 directions, not 16.

Edit: Even more than 20.

You should test that. =X

Hey Kay, could you get a video of the difference in hitbubble area affected of a regular falling fair/bair/dair and a FF fair/bair/dair? I know hitting while FF'ing is more likely; I just want to know how more likely.

I know what you're talking about, but you wouldn't see any difference in a video.

 

[Fuujin]

It does have more than 20 angles, some of them are hard to do though and unbeknownst to me you can control how far she teleports (in any direction) depending on how lightly you press in the direction.

I was trying to ledge cancel from below but I don't think it's possible. :/

 

[Fuujin]

you can ledge cancel on those thingies at Brinstar.
That could lead to some really good set ups.

I avoid that stage like the plague though.

 

[KayLo!]

Ah cool. We do still need a complete list of ledgewarp points for all legal stages.

Also.... I'll add the thing about controlling FW distance to the OP at some point. I think a lot of up b's are like that (I know Pika's QA is).

 

[Fuujin]

Ah cool. We do still need a complete list of ledgewarp points for all legal stages.

Also.... I'll add the thing about controlling FW distance to the OP at some point. I think a lot of up b's are like that (I know Pika's QA is).

Well, it's super minor.
Dunno how much It can help.

I could make a ledge cancel location point, but after finding out how many new directions there are to ledge cancel from it would get pretty complicated.

 

[KayLo!]

It is minor -- not even worth mentioning, really, but I'll find some corner to squeeze it in.

As for ledgewarp points, even just a list of edges you can cancel on would be helpful. I've seen diagrams of points on FD and BF, but that's about it.

 

[Fuujin]

Well isn't every ledge viable for cancels?
o_0

 

[KayLo!]

Ledges yeah, but not all platforms iirc.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

As for ledgewarp points, even just a list of edges you can cancel on would be helpful. I've seen diagrams of points on FD and BF, but that's about it.

There's one for the Norfair too. Granted, it's rather old and may not have all the possible distances and positions you can ledgewarp from.

Also, as far as I know, you can ledgewarp on any platform on which you can teleport diagonally downwards from air or sideways from standing on the ground. (like in this picture)

Spoiler

 

[KayLo!]

What about moving platforms, like YI, Lylat, RC, etc?

Or not-straight ones like Brinstar/PS1/etc?

 

[Fuujin]

What about moving platforms, like YI, Lylat, RC, etc?

Or not-straight ones like Brinstar/PS1/etc?

You can do all of these as well.
That Norfair picture is missing sooo many points that you can cancel from.

As far as I know you can double ledge cancel on bf and norfair.
Probably more but I'm still working on being able to pull it off easily at bf.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

What about moving platforms, like YI, Lylat, RC, etc?

Or not-straight ones like Brinstar/PS1/etc?

I'd assume that it's possible to LW on a platform moving sideways, but only on the edge opposide to the direction of platforms movement. Platform moving upwards propably allows regular LW as long as you're standing on the same platform.

On tilted platforms my guess would be that it's possible to ledgewarp on the upper edge but not the lower one. While a platform is tilting it propably isn't possible to LW, at least in the middle of a fight.

This is all assumption based on my previous knowledge though and in no way guaranteed or tested. I can examine and test this out though.


Edit:

That Norfair picture is missing sooo many points that you can cancel from.

I know it's missing the different distances of the same ledgewarp since those would be impossible to fit in, but are there any completely different ledgewarping positions missing?

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, if y'all wanna do some testing and gimme a list of confirmed edges we can warp from, that'd be great. Doesn't have to be every stage.... only as many as you feel like doing.

It's mostly jank stages I'm unsure about, like PS1, RC, Brinstar, CS.... ones with weird/a lot of platforms.

 

[Fuujin]

I know it's missing the different distances of the same ledgewarp since those would be impossible to fit in, but are there any completely different ledgewarping positions missing?

Yeah there are about four completely different ones missing, maybe more.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Yeah there are about four completely different ones missing, maybe more.

What are those? The other downward diagonal ledgewarps for the lower platforms and the downward diagonal ones for the main stage?

 

[Fuujin]

What are those? The other downward diagonal ledgewarps for the lower platforms and the downward diagonal ones for the main stage?

Yeah, those ones can be double canceled.

 

[AyatoK26]

Went to training mode yesterday and found out that after the first pop-up of your opponent (or in my only tested case, Sonic) sent him up into the perfect area to do a reverse b-air.

Is this guaranteed/easy to pull off or should I just stick to usmash/utilt for reliability?

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Hmm...I want to know more about that.

 

[KayLo!]

Went to training mode yesterday and found out that after the first pop-up of your opponent (or in my only tested case, Sonic) sent him up into the perfect area to do a reverse b-air.

Is this guaranteed/easy to pull off or should I just stick to usmash/utilt for reliability?

Ahhh~ never test damage-based stuff in training mode. It doesn't apply any damage modifiers, so you'll never get what you'll get in a real match.

But no, it's not guaranteed since they can DI. Also.... which percentages were you testing at? I tried a fresh dtilt at 78% (first percentage Sonic pops up) and a little higher into the 80's with no DI, and I kept getting a sourspot.... or he was too low to hit.

 

[Kataefi]

@Fuujin: what do you mean double cancel?

Also you can ledgewarp on platforms, it's just really hard!

 

[AlanHaTe]

@Fuujin: what do you mean double cancel?

I was just going to ask the same!!!

 

[GodAtHand]

He might be talking about ledgewarping but then tilting you control stick back toward the stage and canceling Zelda's fall etc. This allows Zelda to ledge warp and then almost immediately preform any ground move instead of just air moves.

I could be 100% wrong though lol.

 

[Fluttershy]

You can use FW on a moving platform (like the one in SV) and reappear in the same place without going through it. if you limit how far you go down.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Or possibly he means doing two ledgewarps in the row without touching the ground in between. You know, ledgewarp to a ledge => double jump/reposition => ledgewarp to another ledge.

At least the two stages he mentioned (Norfair & Battlefield) allow that.

 

[AyatoK26]

Ahhh~ never test damage-based stuff in training mode. It doesn't apply any damage modifiers, so you'll never get what you'll get in a real match.

But no, it's not guaranteed since they can DI. Also.... which percentages were you testing at? I tried a fresh dtilt at 78% (first percentage Sonic pops up) and a little higher into the 80's with no DI, and I kept getting a sourspot.... or he was too low to hit.

So I retested (in a regular brawl) the dtilt > b-air combo and the actual % was around the late 80's on a frest dtilt.

Getting the actual timing for the dtilt > b-air string is difficult, but if pulled off KO's earlier than the usual utilt/usmash, assuming you're not on the other side of the stage doing this.

 

[Fuujin]

Or possibly he means doing two ledgewarps in the row without touching the ground in between. You know, ledgewarp to a ledge => double jump/reposition => ledgewarp to another ledge.

At least the two stages he mentioned (Norfair & Battlefield) allow that.

This, but sometimes you don't have to double jump.
Still pretty hard to do.

 

[Kataefi]

Are you not getting punished for doing double ledgewarps?

 

[Fuujin]

Are you not getting punished for doing double ledgewarps?

Most people don't know Zelda can do a single ledge warp, let alone twice so they never see it coming.
You shouldn't be getting punished though.
I don't mean teleport to one ledge and teleport back to your starting place,
I mean from one ledge to another so you have minimum ending lag.
2 consecutive ledge cancels.

I haven't practiced enough to pull it off consecutively and haven't used it in tournament yet, I'm still working on it in friendlies.
It's pretty hard for me.

 

[GodAtHand]

Where are the places you are getting this to work? Maybe we could work out some visual cues or something?

 

[Kataefi]

The problem I'm seeing using farore's twice[+] to whiz around in this manner is the reward involved; can someone explain the benefit? The way I view this is that a single ledgewarp is meant to have that "meet-me-halfway" element of surprise and even then it's not that surprising - it has a niche imo for being something scarcely used. Double ledgewarp is, well, a full second of lag off the back of something surprising, which doesn't make it much of a surprise anymore [more a sitting duck ]

If I fought a Zelda who LW'd her way to a kick attempt, I'd be like omg where did she go HALP, but if she initiated Farore's part 1 in succession, I'd probably lightning kick/Snake uair/Ike Uair/Yoshi Uair/MK everything her (as examples) because the novelty wore off. I see a double teleport as much more of a commitment for a reward I think we could better achieve powershielding our way in or tracking the opponent's movement for a murder-aerial in the time it takes to teleport twice.

I do think short sparce bursts of single ledgewarps can be cool, especially if we can meet the opponent halfway through a larger set of warp points to make it more of a surprise. Also, I think I'm interested in finding a good visual cue to ledgewarp as a means of recovery, so when she does return back to the stage she isn't falling to the stage in lag when someone takes the ledge. That'd be quite good. I know BF's platforms can allow this but it's very precise!

Sidenote: I think the back of Usmash seems to be safer/more ranged than the front. Also, sometimes Usmash has weird horizontal range... has anyone experienced this? Like when people attack my shield and I Usmash out of panic, sometimes it catches them even from a full Falco's jab length away. Why does this occur?

 

[KayLo!]

Sidenote: I think the back of Usmash seems to be safer/more ranged than the front.

That's your imagination. The back & the front are exactly the same.

& if you're hitting people from absurdly far away, they probably did a move that extended their hurtbox into range.