The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[Kisamealex3]

Projectiles are different. Aerials can clash with projectiles too.... they work on a separate scale of priority.

Ahhh...I see. Hrmmm...

Question: Why did the upsmash tie with the projectiles but the fsmash not? Aren't they both transcendent?

 

[KayLo!]

I don't know as much about projectile/special priority as I do about normal moves, but from my understanding, every projectile has its own level of priority. That's why some moves can go through Din's Fire and others can't, and some moves can cancel a low-level Aura Sphere but not a fully charged one.

It might just be that usmash has higher priority against certain projectiles than fsmash. I'll look into it if you're really interested.

 

[Kisamealex3]

I don't know as much about projectile/special priority as I do about normal moves, but from my understanding, every projectile has its own level of priority. That's why some moves can go through Din's Fire and others can't, and some moves can cancel a low-level Aura Sphere but not a fully charged one.

It might just be that usmash has higher priority against certain projectiles than fsmash. I'll look into it if you're really interested.

I would actually really appreciate it. It seems really interesting.

 

[KayLo!]

K will do!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm almost certain that the last hit of Up-smash doesn't have transcendant priority. Whereas the first 10 hits do.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fsmash never clashes with anything.

Nair never clashes with anything either, since it's an aerial.


I don't understand why you're confused. It's not different.

I didn't ask why it doesn't clash. I asked why the moves isn't like utilt. If utilt always has the damage/knock back down on hit why doesn't fsmash or nair ? Why do they only do 1 damage and with fsmash there's this where suction knock back on both characters.

Uhh, that's just how they were made? I dunno what you want me to say to that lol.

Honestly, despite what's been commonly accepted, I dunno exactly which of her moves are transcendent and which aren't. Haven't looked into it. It might be that for some multihit moves, certain hits are transcendent while other hits aren't..... or certain hitbubbles are while others aren't..... the entire move doesn't have to be one way or the other.

But I'm pretty sure fsmash, usmash, and utilt are entirely transcendent. Probably jab too. Aerials always are (which is why transcendent priority is sometimes called "aerial priority").

I understand that it's transcendent however, I don't get why one trasncendant move get's the knock back/damage in a trade but another doesn't.

 

[KayLo!]

With multihit moves like fsmash/usmash/nair, you're usually trading with one of the initial hits, which don't do much damage or knockback. If you trade with the final hits of them, you'll get the knockback of their final hits.

Utilt, on the other hand, is a single hit move..... so there's only one hit to trade with.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

With multihit moves like fsmash/usmash/nair, you're usually trading with one of the initial hits, which don't do much damage or knockback. If you trade with the final hits of them, you'll get the knockback of their final hits.

Utilt, on the other hand, is a single hit move..... so there's only one hit to trade with.

Ah , I got it thanks for explaining it.

 

[KayLo!]

Uhh, wrong thread lol. Post them here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267449

 

[-Mars-]

Wouldn't all of the electric attacks be transcendant? I figured it was similar to Lucario's aura.

 

[KayLo!]

That could be the case for Zelda, but element and transcendence are two separate flags. They're not attached to one another.

 

[-Mars-]

No that's not what I meant. I meant that her sparkly attacks are transcendant just like MK's sword attacks or Lucarios aura attacks.

For example.....you can use dtilt to cancel Pika tjolts because it is a normal attack like MK's dash attack but you cannot use fsmash or jab or utilt because they are transcendant.

C what I mean????

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No that's not what I meant. I meant that her sparkly attacks are transcendant just like MK's sword attacks or Lucarios aura attacks.

For example.....you can use dtilt to cancel Pika tjolts because it is a normal attack like MK's dash attack but you cannot use fsmash or jab or utilt because they are transcendant.

C what I mean????

I'm highly confused.

If the last hit of up-smash isn't transcendant, then that theory would go out the window, right?

Unless I have it wrong?

 

[KayLo!]

No that's not what I meant. I meant that her sparkly attacks are transcendant just like MK's sword attacks or Lucarios aura attacks.

For example.....you can use dtilt to cancel Pika tjolts because it is a normal attack like MK's dash attack but you cannot use fsmash or jab or utilt because they are transcendant.

C what I mean????

That doesn't hold true, though, because Zelda's usmash can cancel jolts -- and other projectiles -- too. =P

Like I said, I think projectiles operate on a different scale of priority than normal attacks do..... or maybe usmash isn't transcendent on all hits like we've been thinking. I'd have to look at the flags on each hitbox.

But electric/sparkly doesn't necessarily = transcendent. It's entirely possible for there to be an elemental attack that isn't transcendent, so having the two always stuck together in your mind is meh.

 

[-Mars-]

Uh-huh i see.

 

[phi1ny3]

non-item projectiles have article properties which basically the property of being able to be canceled/clanked with even while in the air, the exceptions are things like Fox/Falco laser. The 8% rule still applies to them.

 

[KayLo!]

Thanks Phil! I knew there was something different about them priority-wise, just wasn't sure what it was.

 

[Kisamealex3]

So um, I was training today and because I found out some of these things about priorities of Zelda's attacks (specifically u-tilt), I've applied them differently and used u-tilt a lot smarterly...

Yes, smarterly is a new word. I just made it. USE IT.

 

[MrEh]

I found the best way to use Utilt is to catch airdodges with it.

 

[KayLo!]

So um, I was training today and because I found out some of these things about priorities of Zelda's attacks (specifically u-tilt), I've applied them differently and used u-tilt a lot smarterly...

Yes, smarterly is a new word. I just made it. USE IT.

Hehe, glad to see that this info's been useful to someone. =D Living proof that it can be applied by the right person!

Now go to a goddamn tournament.

---

Also, I'm gonna try to get around to working on everybody's requests today. Not sure how much I'll get done in one sitting, but I haven't forgotten you guys.

 

[Kisamealex3]

Hehe, glad to see that this info's been useful to someone. =D Living proof that it can be applied by the right person!

Now go to a goddamn tournament.

---

Also, I'm gonna try to get around to working on everybody's requests today. Not sure how much I'll get done in one sitting, but I haven't forgotten you guys.

Well, you're not as mad as me because Riz's tourney Prototype isn't a tourney anymore. He's making it a smashfest and I'm going...

I was gonna enter and ****. .

I was gonna use my edumacashun to beat people.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I found the best way to use Utilt is to catch airdodges with it.

That's a good way to use it. If my opponent is at 110 depending on the character I'll using utilt to trade with any of their attacks. I could really care less what they're throwing out or my percentages I know my move is going to more likely kill.

 

[AyatoK26]

I found the best way to use Utilt is to catch airdodges with it.

Or as a replacement for D-smash that kills when D-smash doesn't from center stage. And it covers both sides like D-smash, albeit it being slower.

 

[KayLo!]

OP updated!

- Frame data is now complete for everything except Din's, tech rolls, item tosses, and trip durations.
- Added block advantage for every attack.
- Removed hitlag, shield hitlag, and shield stun since they're not important to know.
- Changed base damage to fresh damage.

If anything's confusing, let me know. Now that I've gotten most of the basic frame stuff out of the way, I'm gonna finally get to work on people's requests. ><

 

[AlanHaTe]

- Added block advantage for every attack.

If it says for example -25 it actually means disadvantaje am I right?!

The thing is that every attack has negative numbers in the block advantaje section -_-

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, negative = disadvantage. (Using advantage as opposed to disadvantage is just the standard way to write it. *shrug*)

There are..... veeery few attacks in Brawl that have a positive advantage on block, but there's always spacing + shield push to consider -- so for example, there might be a -11 adv for jab, but it pushes people far enough away that it's usually safe on block if you space it well.

 

[MrEh]

but it pushes people far enough away that it's usually safe on block if you space it well.

Essentially everything that Marth does.

 

[Kataefi]

I find all this information so interesting! Ftilt is better than what I expected. Thanks for doing this Kay.

 

[KayLo!]

Essentially everything that Marth does.

Yeah, Marth does it better, especially since his tipper does more damage.

--

Which brings me to something Prime recently "discovered": shield push seems to be directly and exclusively linked to damage. So two moves that do the same damage will always deal the same amount of push, and more damage = more push.

I find all this information so interesting! Ftilt is better than what I expected. Thanks for doing this Kay.

Yeah, I was surprised to see that ftilt really isn't as horribad on shield as we've made it out to be. Still not good, but it's no utilt.

Another note: the later in the hitbox you hit with a move, the better the advantage you get. The numbers I listed were for the first hit frame per damage value, but if you hit with, say, the end of utilt, you'll have less of a disadvantage. (Should be obvious, but I didn't know if people knew that.)

 

[-Mars-]

Does jab wall infinite?

I ask only because it makes your opponent tumble on the ground for whatever reason.

 

[Kataefi]

Jab seems to have a lot of stun, but I don't know.

@Kay: what exactly is a sweetspot (in, like, game data terms)? You know the hurtbubbles of a character - does a sweetspot happen only when you space against those particular hurtbubbles? It's nothing urgent I'm just interested!

 

[KayLo!]

I'll look into the jab thing!

--

As for sweetspots, they're specific hitbubbles that (in most cases) give abnormally large knockback. In Zelda's case, fair/bair/dair have sweetspot hitbubbles, but they only last for one frame.... after that frame, they get deleted -- or in dair's case, gets replaced by two sourspot ones.

Like fair for example:

Hitbox 0 / Bone: 14 / Damage: 20 / BKB: 34 / KBG: 95 / Size: 1.7
Hitbox 1 / Bone: 12 / Damage: 5 / BKB: 5 / KBG: 80 / Size: 4
Hitbox 2 / Bone: 10 / Damage: 5 / BKB: 5 / KBG: 80 / Size: 4.5
Hitbox 3 / Bone: 14 / Damage: 5 / BKB: 5 / KBG: 96 / Size: 5

That's what fair looks like on frame 8.... hitbox 0 is the sweetspot (and is actually on top of/inside/whatever hitbox 3). Between frames 8 and 9, hitbox 0 gets deleted, leaving three sourspot hitbubbles.

& yeah, as long as the sweetspot connects with another character's hurtbubbles, it'll hit them.

 

[-Mars-]

I think Kaylo is a computer and/or a robot.

 

[KayLo!]

Lol.

You do realize there's a program that lists all this info, right? XD I didn't figure it all out by myself.

 

[NAKAT]

Lol.

You do realize there's a program that lists all this info, right? XD I didn't figure it all out by myself.

Nooppeee I'm going to go with you being a robot :D

 

[KayLo!]

Chill, you like feet tho.

Spoiler

<3

 

[Fuujin]

Kayla how strict is the timing of this infinite on Wario e_e...?

 

[KayLo!]

~9 frames, maybe 1 or 2 less.

Definitely doable. But keep in mind that you have to use some of those frames for walking if you wanna move forward, so it's probably closer to like... 4-5.

But GR > fair is nearly always a better option imo. x.o

 

[KayLo!]

Visible hitbubble vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-R24V4LgM

The only things missing are tech & trip getup attacks (they weren't in the .pac), but meh, who cares.

 

[Fuujin]

Visible hitbubble vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-R24V4LgM

The only things missing are tech & trip getup attacks (they weren't in the .pac), but meh, who cares.

Thank you.

A question about sweet spotted Lightning Kicks.
The initial hitbox (that's like 1 frame) has to connect with a certain hurt box of a character in order for it to be sweet spotted right?