Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[HeavyLobster]

Do we need to talk about the Robin MU after that? I don't feel like it's impossible or anything, but it's definitely a long slog and frustrating. So many Arcfires.

 

[jmanup85]

I'm still processing all the info I gathered from watching those sets but the MU doesn't seem too difficult if you play it patiently. Definitely a MU where power shielding is a very good thing to have mastered.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, agreed with Jman. I think both sides played their respective hands really well, but neither Robin did a whole lot of camping, which is what makes the MU tough. Just good solid play from both sides.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yeah, it's more annoying than particularly bad. Definitely not impossible, but trying to slog through a campy Robin is frustrating. Robin's decently exploitable once you get in, and there's nothing that makes getting in impossible, but Robin can really slow the match down if s/he wants to, and keeping your cool while under fire(pun intentional) is crucial. It's more a mental struggle as opposed to something that Ganon doesn't have the tools to deal with.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I may not have shown it properly, but the match-up is dead even. Don't let those games fool you. This tournament came after a four month break for me.

I'm going to a big tournament next week; https://www.facebook.com/events/1409262942712483/

This will have far more competition (Nairo, Ally, etc).

 

[Candlejack]

Not sure if it's been asked in here already, but I was curious. Do you dorfs ever get discouraged while playing him? Some MU's are just so unbearable, and I usually have to give my all whenever I play; which can be tiring in it's own.

Ganondorf is legitimately the only character that I have a lot of fun playing, so of course it sucks when I feel this way. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am and everyone else doesn't has this problem. But alas, I wanted to hear what you all thought.

Edit: I think it also should be noted that I don't have any secondaries. Maybe thats part of the issue in a way.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not sure if it's been asked in here already, but I was curious. Do you dorfs ever get discouraged while playing him? Some MU's are just so unbearable, and I usually have to give my all whenever I play; which can be tiring in it's own.

Ganondorf is legitimately the only character that I have a lot of fun playing, so of course it sucks when I feel this way. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am and everyone else doesn't has this problem. But alas, I wanted to hear what you all thought.

Edit: I think it also should be noted that I don't have any secondaries. Maybe thats part of the issue in a way.

The lack of a secondary can definitely be an issue, especially if playing in a customless environment. It's something I've been trying to work on myself, but most secondaries that would cover my bad MUs don't really click with me, and the only one I'm good enough with to actually feel comfortable using in any sort of serious match is Bowser, who, while fun, doesn't cover any of the MUs I need help in. Villager, Rosa, and Sheik are the main MUs I feel like I'd want at least the option to change characters, so any character who can fight those three decently well that clicks with you would be a good idea to practice. Most other matchups I think are manageable if sometimes difficult.

 

[Rizen]

Chasing down some zoning characters with Ganon is a huge pain I agree.

 

[Blobface]

Not sure if it's been asked in here already, but I was curious. Do you dorfs ever get discouraged while playing him? Some MU's are just so unbearable, and I usually have to give my all whenever I play; which can be tiring in it's own.

Ganondorf is legitimately the only character that I have a lot of fun playing, so of course it sucks when I feel this way. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am and everyone else doesn't has this problem. But alas, I wanted to hear what you all thought.

Edit: I think it also should be noted that I don't have any secondaries. Maybe thats part of the issue in a way.

Just remember what happens when you finally break through all their safety.

Spoiler

they die

 

[Vermanubis]

I may not have shown it properly, but the match-up is dead even. Don't let those games fool you. This tournament came after a four month break for me.

I'm going to a big tournament next week; https://www.facebook.com/events/1409262942712483/

This will have far more competition (Nairo, Ally, etc).

Didn't you go to a customs tournament a month or two ago?

Not sure if it's been asked in here already, but I was curious. Do you dorfs ever get discouraged while playing him? Some MU's are just so unbearable, and I usually have to give my all whenever I play; which can be tiring in it's own.

Ganondorf is legitimately the only character that I have a lot of fun playing, so of course it sucks when I feel this way. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am and everyone else doesn't has this problem. But alas, I wanted to hear what you all thought.

Edit: I think it also should be noted that I don't have any secondaries. Maybe thats part of the issue in a way.

I can't speak for all the Ganons here, but I know there are a few of us here who go pure Ganon, me being one of 'em. And I can definitely tell you that it can be very discouraging at times. It's an interesting fix to be in: in the spirit of fairness, you removed your right to complain by opting to play Ganon, but at the same time, the truth of the matter is that Ganon <does> inherently hold people back. And it's frustrating when you underperform.

But like @ Blobface said, once you break through to someone, it's all worth it. The thing with Ganon you'll notice at higher levels of play is that, it becomes less about making everyone into a combo video, and more about patience, and above all else, knowing when to smell blood and when to fade back. But the motivation lies in the fact that <nothing> is impossible in this game as Ganon. Beyond human expectation? Possibly. But let's remember, we eschewed our humanity the moment we chose to drink of the chalice of Ganon.

 

[jmanup85]

Didn't you go to a customs tournament a month or two ago?



I can't speak for all the Ganons here, but I know there are a few of us here who go pure Ganon, me being one of 'em. And I can definitely tell you that it can be very discouraging at times. It's an interesting fix to be in: in the spirit of fairness, you removed your right to complain by opting to play Ganon, but at the same time, the truth of the matter is that Ganon <does> inherently hold people back. And it's frustrating when you underperform.

But like @ Blobface said, once you break through to someone, it's all worth it. The thing with Ganon you'll notice at higher levels of play is that, it becomes less about making everyone into a combo video, and more about patience, and above all else, knowing when to smell blood and when to fade back. But the motivation lies in the fact that <nothing> is impossible in this game as Ganon. Beyond human expectation? Possibly. But let's remember, we eschewed our humanity the moment we chose to drink of the chalice of Ganon.

That... was so beautiful. Oh Ganon, how I love thee. Let me count the ways!

 

[Opana]

I don't feel held back tbh, I feel like dorf is the only character capable of bringing out my potential due to how I play. Plus, I like himas a character and a combination of the two is necessary. For example, I did well with Villager, but as a character he wasn't too interesting and I didn't feel that drive I do as dorf to improve. I don't really feel disadvantaged playing as him, I do feel like his weaknesses are more prevalent at times though in certain MUs but really that's the majority of the roster. Not say say others aren't held back, but I feel the opposite when using other characters, from Sheik to Mii Swordfighter lol.

Any time I've felt discouraged I usually would just repeatedly play that MU, or even play the character to determine their weaknesses. Once that is figured out, and the player of course, you can tap into arguably the greatest potential in the game with proper reads/punishment.

 

[Dumbfire]

I lost to a camping Robin in tourney who wasn't too good; had to switch to Link, who I 2-stocked him with. I always find it sad when I have to but I really can't handle camping well with Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I have a huge tournament coming up next week, and it's literally just a 10 minute walk from my house.

(Ontario's amazing).

http://www.twitch.tv/EvenMatchupGaming

Going all Ganon as always, and I will try my best to represent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have a huge tournament coming up next week, and it's literally just a 10 minute walk from my house.

http://www.twitch.tv/EvenMatchupGaming

Going all Ganon as always, and I will try my best to represent.

Next week at what time?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Next week at what time?

Saturday are pools only. Sundays the brackets should start at around 1pm EST I believe.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I went on a match today, gotten beaten up pretty bad by a ZSS player. But don't fret, I didn't lose for these reasons alone:

Performed an Aerial Warlock Punch (reversed), dealing 42% damage and instantly semi-spiking and KO'ing the opponent from the center of the battlefield.

Then I performed a Reverse Warlock Punch, dealing 34% damage, came back with another Reverse Warlock Punch, instantly breaking the opponent's shield, and ending it with, you guessed it, a Reversed Warlock Punch.

So, I had a fantastic day as you can imagine.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Edit/ Ignore this post.

 

[Scraptor]

I don't feel held back tbh, I feel like dorf is the only character capable of bringing out my potential due to how I play. Plus, I like himas a character and a combination of the two is necessary. For example, I did well with Villager, but as a character he wasn't too interesting and I didn't feel that drive I do as dorf to improve. I don't really feel disadvantaged playing as him, I do feel like his weaknesses are more prevalent at times though in certain MUs but really that's the majority of the roster. Not say say others aren't held back, but I feel the opposite when using other characters, from Sheik to Mii Swordfighter lol.

Any time I've felt discouraged I usually would just repeatedly play that MU, or even play the character to determine their weaknesses. Once that is figured out, and the player of course, you can tap into arguably the greatest potential in the game with proper reads/punishment.

I get discouraged by my play not by my character. I have seen videos and played against better players playing Ganon and I know I have so many holes in my game. I seen others dominate MUs that I thought were impossible. So when I get discouraged it is because I feel like I should be getting better, not throwing out lagging moves, or not doing things like walking into obvious traps. I have a limited amount of time I can play and I wish there was some workout plan I could follow to get better but it is just playing and learning from losses and trying to get better. I know my win % is not much better since I started posting but I am not getting 2/3 stocked as much, I am taking more sets, I am hitting reads but also know I missing follow ups, and my aerial game is better.

I like @Opanas idea of playing different characters to learn them to use that knowledge. What I found helpful was playing FG on random character. It is fun and to me less pressure to win that match because I don't have the same knowledge level of that character as I do playing Ganon. For me I realized that I am going to get better its playing Ganon.

 

[DLA]

I've gone to 2 tournaments since I "returned" to Smash 4. Last week, at my first real Smash 4 tournament, I got 7th/24, losing to Cosmo's Zelda in winners (yes, that Cosmo), and a Sheik player named BigMak in losers.

This week (yesterday) I got 4th out of 32, losing to Shion (Falcon player who got 2nd) and XYZ (ZSS player who got 3rd).

I feel like I'm losing most of my matches due to lack of matchup experience--for example, I lost game 1 to Shion's Falcon because I tried to Ganoncide him while he was Utilting... not only did the Utilt release my grab, but it also spiked me straight down which I had no idea happened in this game LOL. All these players that I lost to were pretty good, but I feel like the only one I got solidly beat by was the Sheik player. Ganon feels pretty helpless in that MU.

Regardless, I'm sticking to all Ganon for now, and I have a few regionals coming up, so we'll have to see how I'll do. I'm pretty optimistic because I feel like I'm learning these MUs fast.

edit: I should be posting a lot of videos from both weeks once they're uploaded to Youtube, because they get really hyped when I play and make me play a lot of matches on stream. Ganon lyfe.

 

[Blobface]

Nice to see how much you've improved!

All these players that I lost to were pretty good, but I feel like the only one I got solidly beat by was the Sheik player. Ganon feels pretty helpless in that MU.

Sheik in customs off is a terrible matchup for Ganon. Ganon gets so much reward on hit in this game that most bad matchups barely even matter when he can flip the match around in 5 seconds. Sheik is one of the few matchups bad enough that outplaying them sometimes isn't enough.

For fighting Sheik, I'd recommend playing a bit more carefully until you reach a % where Sheik's Fair stops chaining into itself. That's the "critical percent" range where getting gimped is an issue against Sheik. Once her Fair starts sending you too high to combo properly, she loses a lot of what makes her threatening, and you can use rage to toss the match back in your favor with an early kill.

Customs on is a different story and might be an even matchup. Dark Fists + Dropkick render Sheiks gimps moot, and Dark Fists in particular can be used to counter her Fair shenanigans with the most powerful vertical kill move in the game.

 

[Rizen]

I feel like I'm losing most of my matches due to lack of matchup experience--for example, I lost game 1 to Shion's Falcon because I tried to Ganoncide him while he was Utilting... not only did the Utilt release my grab, but it also spiked me straight down which I had no idea happened in this game LOL.

^This happened to me too. I know exactly what you mean; I haven't had much time to play SSB4 and many MUs have weird things that you can only know from experience. A lot of attacks have disjoint not indicated by the visuals.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've gone to 2 tournaments since I "returned" to Smash 4. Last week, at my first real Smash 4 tournament, I got 7th/24, losing to Cosmo's Zelda in winners (yes, that Cosmo), and a Sheik player named BigMak in losers.

This week (yesterday) I got 4th out of 32, losing to Shion (Falcon player who got 2nd) and XYZ (ZSS player who got 3rd).

I feel like I'm losing most of my matches due to lack of matchup experience--for example, I lost game 1 to Shion's Falcon because I tried to Ganoncide him while he was Utilting... not only did the Utilt release my grab, but it also spiked me straight down which I had no idea happened in this game LOL. All these players that I lost to were pretty good, but I feel like the only one I got solidly beat by was the Sheik player. Ganon feels pretty helpless in that MU.

Regardless, I'm sticking to all Ganon for now, and I have a few regionals coming up, so we'll have to see how I'll do. I'm pretty optimistic because I feel like I'm learning these MUs fast.

edit: I should be posting a lot of videos from both weeks once they're uploaded to Youtube, because they get really hyped when I play and make me play a lot of matches on stream. Ganon lyfe.

Keep up the good work. I definitely want to put you on the Ganon Tier List, and see what you accomplish after you get comfortable with matchups.

As Blobface said, as long as you avoid getting comboed into awkward gimp situations, the matchup is doable. One of Ganon's worst matchups definitely, but Ganon kills early enough that it's doable.

The other thing we have to practice is spiking Sheik out of her Up-B as she tries to sweetspot the ledge. All characters in this game are vulnerable for 1 frame when sweetspotting the ledge from below. I've done it before once, so I think the timing is competitively feasible.

 

[Blobface]

The other thing we have to practice is spiking Sheik out of her Up-B as she tries to sweetspot the ledge. All characters in this game are vulnerable for 1 frame when sweetspotting the ledge from below. I've done it before once, so I think the timing is competitively feasible.

I did some labbing with this (with Sheik), and what I found most effective was jumping off facing the stage, then DJ U-airing when they grabbed the ledge to cover the whole ledge in hitbox for a stage spike.

If you're feeling saucy though, you can try DJ D-air for an instant kill.

 

[jmanup85]

I did some labbing with this (with Sheik), and what I found most effective was jumping off facing the stage, then DJ U-airing when they grabbed the ledge to cover the whole ledge in hitbox for a stage spike.

If you're feeling saucy though, you can try DJ D-air for an instant kill.

Couldn't Sheik tech the attempted stage stage and gimp you since you wasted your DJ? would go for the dair simply because it's safer, or maybe a nair.

Edit: After playing around with this it seems that it's a really good option against vanilla Villager with a dair. Little Mac can exploit this like no other imo, idk if he stuffs Ganon because his ledge snap is pretty ridiculous but Falcon can get destroyed.

 

[Z1GMA]

I have a huge tournament coming up next week, and it's literally just a 10 minute walk from my house.

(Ontario's amazing).

http://www.twitch.tv/EvenMatchupGaming

Going all Ganon as always, and I will try my best to represent.

Please link your matches later, Kalm.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Oooookay, ladies and gents.

Just thought I'd drop in a suggestion about the influx of whinge threads. Not sure if anyone else is getting irate from seeing all of these popping up, but If others are equally annoyed then i'd be interested in either their support or opinions on this matter.

If it pleases the boards, I move to lock either all the threads except one and have that as the sole whine thread. OR lock them all and open a solitary new thread for this purpose.

@ Vermanubis for the purpose of board god seeing this.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You'll probably see a couple matches of me today. The brackets aren't until tomorrow.

Http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial

 

[Tarry]

Oooookay, ladies and gents.

Just thought I'd drop in a suggestion about the influx of whinge threads. Not sure if anyone else is getting irate from seeing all of these popping up, but If others are equally annoyed then i'd be interested in either their support or opinions on this matter.

If it pleases the boards, I move to lock either all the threads except one and have that as the sole whine thread. OR lock them all and open a solitary new thread for this purpose.

@ Vermanubis for the purpose of board god seeing this.

I second this

 

[Z1GMA]

Oooookay, ladies and gents.

Just thought I'd drop in a suggestion about the influx of whinge threads. Not sure if anyone else is getting irate from seeing all of these popping up, but If others are equally annoyed then i'd be interested in either their support or opinions on this matter.

If it pleases the boards, I move to lock either all the threads except one and have that as the sole whine thread. OR lock them all and open a solitary new thread for this purpose.

@ Vermanubis for the purpose of board god seeing this.

Ya, we def need a "read this Before making a post"-thread.

 

[jmanup85]

Oooookay, ladies and gents.

Just thought I'd drop in a suggestion about the influx of whinge threads. Not sure if anyone else is getting irate from seeing all of these popping up, but If others are equally annoyed then i'd be interested in either their support or opinions on this matter.

If it pleases the boards, I move to lock either all the threads except one and have that as the sole whine thread. OR lock them all and open a solitary new thread for this purpose.

@ Vermanubis for the purpose of board god seeing this.

I approve of this

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay guys I'm just playing for first seed on stream about a min from now.

http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, I'll see what I can do about those threads.

 

[jmanup85]

RAY KALM WITH THAT BAIR KILL AND THAT FAIR AT THE END. Giving Ness that noogie. Good stuff @ Ray_Kalm

 

[Sykkamorre]

Yeah, I'll see what I can do about those threads.

Thank ye kindly, sir!

I figured this was the most efficient way of seeing the response of my fellow dorfs. Sorry if it was a bit blunt.

 

[Vermanubis]

Thank ye kindly, sir!

I figured this was the most efficient way of seeing the response of my fellow dorfs. Sorry if it was a bit blunt.

No worries. I've been thinking about what to do with them for a bit now. They're not duplicates, and they're not technically breaking any rules, but it <is> an eyesore and could definitely be merged. I don't have the power to merge though,so I have to get higher up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The brackets are streaming; http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial

 

[idousm]

does anyone know how to perform the up air footstool to down b?

 

[Sykkamorre]

Savage times there kalm.

You played well though man! That second match V. Blank was crazy!

 

[Z1GMA]

Could someone link me to Kalm's matches as well as the 00:00:00's, please?