Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Rizen]

The one we all reside in sis.

I heard that place is a real dump.

 

[the king of murder]

The one we all reside in sis.

Fuji is back. How was your time in the Shadow Realm?

 

[lolreconlol]

Is Ganon a viable character at all, at the tournament level? Mained him in Melee, hated him in Brawl, and now I'm having a ton of fun playing with him on FG. Lots of fun and laughs after I was getting tired of taking the game too seriously. Any top Ganon players I should watch?

 

[Rizen]

'Viable' is a subjective term :/

 

[HeavyLobster]

Is Ganon a viable character at all, at the tournament level? Mained him in Melee, hated him in Brawl, and now I'm having a ton of fun playing with him on FG. Lots of fun and laughs after I was getting tired of taking the game too seriously. Any top Ganon players I should watch?

With customs he's probably marginally viable. He'll never be an optimal tourney pick but with customs he can avoid gimps and get in on projectile campers more easily. His top tier MUs aren't good by any means, but with customs they're all at least playable. Top Ganons include Kalm and Gungnir. Learn the ways of darkness from them.

 

[jmanup85]

Mostly agreed, but not entirely.

I think the MUs that'd keep a number of Ganons down are Rosa, Sheik, Pika, Villager, ZSS and possibly Duck Hunt. Pika and DHD aren't terribly common though, but when someone comes across an A+ specimen thereof, that's when things get nasty.

I honestly think that those require a counter pick, namely Rosalina and Villager.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fuji is back. How was your time in the Shadow Realm?

Didn't take Fuujin long to get Thunderstomped back there. Such is the price for defying Ganon.

 

[Blobface]

Is Ganon a viable character at all, at the tournament level? Mained him in Melee, hated him in Brawl, and now I'm having a ton of fun playing with him on FG. Lots of fun and laughs after I was getting tired of taking the game too seriously. Any top Ganon players I should watch?

Vermanubis, Kalm, and Gungnir, especially Gungnir.

Ganon's design is a bit self-limiting in that most of what he does is a gamble in some way, especially in his worst matchups against obnoxiously safe characters (Sheik, Rosalina) where he can't really get punishes. You can bait and condition people all you want, but every once and a while you will guess wrong.

With all that said, Ganondorf easily gets the most reward on hit of anyone in the cast, even other heavies. He combos as well as Captain Falcon, deals the most % per attack (most of his attacks are either 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in terms of % damage), and literally everything he does is a kill move (even jab). Ganondorf can easily tack on 60% off pretty much any hit he lands. Not that he needs % to kill someone of course. To quote Vermanubis, "0% is ideal killing percent for Ganon"

He also benefits a lot from customs. Dark Fists is amazing, and combined with Wizard's Dropkick it makes his "may require a secondary" matchups into "bad, but manageable" matchups.

By comparison to his Melee tier placement, I'd say Ganondorf is slightly lower customs off and slightly higher customs on, so somewhere around mid-tier.

 

[HeavyLobster]

literally everything he does is a kill move (even jab).

Can confirm that the Jab buff is real. Killed Pika at 120% today, though it was at near-full rage on Smashville.
Edit: Actually with customs I believe it is possible for every single one of Ganon's non-throw attacks to kill at a reasonable %.

 

[Blobface]

Can confirm that the Jab buff is real. Killed Pika at 120% today, though it was at near-full rage on Smashville.
Edit: Actually with customs I believe it is possible for every single one of Ganon's non-throw attacks to kill at a reasonable %.

Even Back-throw kills!

 

[jmanup85]

Even Back-throw kills!

Back throw has been able to kill before the update

 

[Blobface]

Back throw has been able to kill before the update

I just meant in general.

 

[jmanup85]

Oh then yeah, almost all his moves kill. Off the top of my head I can only think of F-throw, U-throw and D-throw that dont kill reasonably. B-throw can actually kill Link with full rage around 135-145% at the edge of FD. Either way he kills absurdly fast if given the opportunity. another character that kills fast is strangely enough Mewtwo. I faced a Ganon earlier in FG and killed him at about 105% with U-smash. Granted I charged the attack for about a second to bait the airdodge.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mewtwo does indeed kill easily. He's much more fun to play than in Melee, though unfortunately Teleport's nerfed and he dies to a stiff wind, so he really is a glass cannon this time around.

 

[Blobface]

I'm curious, is it hypothetically possible to combo with a groundbounce after a D-air? Say DK try's to cargo U-throw --> U-air you and you jump and stomp him. Is there any way to follow up?

 

[Naroghin]

Depends on a lot of factors, but I've gotten DJ (after being thrown or something)>Dair>(enemy bounce)>FF Fair. Only worked cause they bounce forward. Usually the only thing I can get is something with decent coverage/lasting hitboxes such as Uair or Nair. Needs much more testing but I think it may be a viable thing to explore as ranging speeds per percent (most of them being fast) make it hard to tech; although, there may be some good followups considering techs as well.

 

[Blobface]

This is beautiful

 

[Vermanubis]

In case anybody's interested, I got 3/48 this weekend at a customs tourney. 3rd certainly isn't disappointing, given it was a reasonably stacked tournament, but I'm disappointed with how I lost to our first seed Villager. Each stock I lost, I lost from a stage spike from his exploding up-b because I tried to gimp him. Would've teched it, but I didn't know he could detonate the balloons at will, so I teched at the wrong times. Each time I had a significant percent lead as well. I controlled each match convincingly, which is why I'm a bit crestfallen to go out that way. Could've easily taken 1st had I not been ignorant of that move.

I also fought Robotnik again. I beat his Yoshi first round, then he switched to Donkey Kong and Cyclone Kong'd be nearly to death. Made some things happen though, so I thankfully didn't have to say I lost to that sort of ridiculous thing.

Lessons learned, I guess. Now that I know about the exploding balloons, I expect 1st from myself next time I go.

 

[jmanup85]

In case anybody's interested, I got 3/48 this weekend at a customs tourney. 3rd certainly isn't disappointing, but I'm disappointed with how I lost to our first seed Villager. Each stock I lost, I lost from a stage spike from his exploding up-b because I tried to gimp him. Would've teched it, but I didn't know he could detonate the balloons at will, so I teched at the wrong times. Each time I had a significant percent lead as well. I controlled each match convincingly, which is why I'm a bit crestfallen to go out that way.

I also fought Robotnik again. I beat his Yoshi first round, then he switched to Donkey Kong and Cyclone Kong'd be nearly to death. Made some things happen though, so I thankfully didn't have to say I lost to that sort of ridiculous thing.

Lessons learned, I guess. Now that I know about the exploding balloons, I expect 1st from myself next time I go.

Although you didn't get first congrats on the 3rd place win. Villager is my handicap along with Rosalina and Pikachu in this game. I can handle anyone else but those 3 with the Dorf. I wanna play way better people and up my game, back to watching vids and stuff to take new tech and work on my stuff.

 

[Vermanubis]

Although you didn't get first congrats on the 3rd place win. Villager is my handicap along with Rosalina and Pikachu in this game. I can handle anyone else but those 3 with the Dorf. I wanna play way better people and up my game, back to watching vids and stuff to take new tech and work on my stuff.

Thanks, dude.

Those're definitely horrible MUs for Ganon. Thankfully there're no good Pikas in my region, but we've got plenty of good Rosas, Sheiks and a few Villagers.

And Villager was a handicap for me for a while, but after facing him in tournament a few times, I'm much more confident in it now. Now that I know what Villager's custom up-b does, I won't forgive myself if I go out to him again.

 

[Blobface]

Pika might actually be even with customs. Pika loses his edgeguarding, but gains Heavy Skull Bash. Combined with Dark Fists, it basically becomes a matchup where one goof by either player results in guaranteed death. It's a very volatile matchup, much like Shulk or Ganon dittos.

Congrats on the tourney! It's nice to hear that you beat the dreaded Dongnado. Just out of curiosity, what did you do against it?

Side note: do you think Ganon's incredibly long ranged ledge grab contributes to his trumping ability?

 

[jmanup85]

Thanks, dude.

Those're definitely horrible MUs for Ganon. Thankfully there're no good Pikas in my region, but we've got plenty of good Rosas, Sheiks and a few Villagers.

And Villager was a handicap for me for a while, but after facing him in tournament a few times, I'm much more confident in it now. Now that I know what Villager's custom up-b does, I won't forgive myself if I go out to him again.

I play my nephew who got 3rd in a couple of tourneys here with his Villager so I constantly spar against that little psychopath. That being said he doesn't use the custom up b too much but I deal with counter timber alot.

 

[THE 6r]

I discovered that reverse Warlock Punch OHKO's Mewtwo. First post in quite some time and with a copy of SmashU!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bah...I lost a bunch of replays I had against good players...including Gungnir, Vicegrip, Pon, san, and others. Procrastinated way too long.

Meh. I'll always have time to produce more! And now replay sharing is up!

 

[Ffamran]

I discovered that reverse Warlock Punch OHKO's Mewtwo. First post in quite some time and with a copy of SmashU!

Like this? @ Hokori ! FAAAAAATALITY! Er... I think it's a based on Mortal Kombat - I don't know what's up with the electricity, but the blood rain. Also, why is his head on fire?!

I know that you shouldn't be hit by reverse warlock punch anyway but this is pretty funny.

 

[Hokori]

Like this? @ Hokori ! FAAAAAATALITY! Er... I think it's a based on Mortal Kombat - I don't know what's up with the electricity, but the blood rain. Also, why is his head on fire?!

This is absolutely wonderful.

 

[Kyogokudo]

I'm currently facing a terrible trouble as a Ganondorf main...
I love his customs way too much.
So much that I can't bother to play default anymore. It just feels so satisfying to make a strong opponent rage because of these. I fought a pretty damn good Marth (IMO at least), I couldn't do anything because he was quick and spaced well. It looked like it was hopeless but I won 3-0. And all that because I crushed every single of his edgeguarding attempt with DF. I also escaped some tough situations with dropkick and even went as far as hitting with Warlock blade in every game. I honestly can't do nearly as good with Defaultdorf. I die early and get edgeguarded easily. I suppose I need some kind of intensive training without customs because it's not like everyone will always allow them.
"Custom Ganon is janky"
Oh and congrats Verm.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm currently facing a terrible trouble as a Ganondorf main...
I love his customs way too much.
So much that I can't bother to play default anymore. It just feels so satisfying to make a strong opponent rage because of these. I fought a pretty damn good Marth (IMO at least), I couldn't do anything because he was quick and spaced well. It looked like it was hopeless but I won 3-0. And all that because I crushed every single of his edgeguarding attempt with DF. I also escaped some tough situations with dropkick and even went as far as hitting with Warlock blade in every game. I honestly can't do nearly as good with Defaultdorf. I die early and get edgeguarded easily. I suppose I need some kind of intensive training without customs because it's not like everyone will always allow them.
"Custom Ganon is janky"
Oh and congrats Verm.

Default Wizkick is better against Marth, to be blatantly honest. Marth's ledge pressure game is still really annoying with his low commitment D-tilt. If he does it right, you often need to ledge jump to escape his D-tilt/Grab pressure, and Default wizkick is one of few options that he has to play carefully around when juggling you. Marth has an easy time punishing aerial WDK in contrast given he runs pretty fast and thus can chase it.

 

[Blobface]

@ Kyogokudo You should start practicing without customs every once and a while, especially Wizkick since even in customs Wizkick is generally better than WDK (Dark Fists is one of the best specials period and should always be picked unless you want to try and edgeguard recoveries with Super Armor).

As for recovery, I can't really offer many tips. I usually just try to save my recovery move till the last moment so I can U-air if they come after me. @ Ray_Kalm would be the best person to ask about this I think.

 

[the king of murder]

So what is your first impression about the Mew2:Ganon MU so far? Many people seem to believe Mew2 has the edge because he is faster,more mobile, has a scary projectile and a similar punish game. He is also good at edgeguarding something Ganon hates because he can go balls deep with teleport.

I also faced some decent Mew2 players but I never got the impression that Mew2 could do much against me. We outrange him and our punish reward is even scarier than Mew2s and Mew2 dies so quickly. His disadvantage is so bad and teleport has some lag. We cant edgeguard him well, which shouldn't even matter because he dies so early and his frame data doesn't seem to be that much better especially the aerials.

 

[adom4]

So what is your first impression about the Mew2:Ganon MU so far? Many people seem to believe Mew2 has the edge because he is faster,more mobile, has a scary projectile and a similar punish game. He is also good at edgeguarding something Ganon hates because he can go balls deep with teleport.

I also faced some decent Mew2 players but I never got the impression that Mew2 could do much against me. We outrange him and our punish reward is even scarier than Mew2s and Mew2 dies so quickly. His disadvantage is so bad and teleport has some lag. We cant edgeguard him well, which shouldn't even matter because he dies so early and his frame data doesn't seem to be that much better especially the aerials.

I think it's a bit early to say anything about that matchup but i never had any trouble against Mewtwos so far, with customs it's even easier because dropkick allows safer recovring.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo has a scary projectile that we can dash attack through at low level charges and completely clank out with bair even at max charge or just dropkick right over it like a boss.

 

[Blobface]

Not sure how useful Dropkick is in this matchup, but Dark Fists will ruin Mewtwo. He's super floaty and light, and a lot of his aerials aren't that fast.

 

[adom4]

Not sure how useful Dropkick is in this matchup, but Dark Fists will ruin Mewtwo. He's super floaty and light, and a lot of his aerials aren't that fast.

Dropkick is very useful, it makes recovering much easier since Mewtwo's off stage game is pretty scary.

 

[Blobface]

Mewtwo is probably going to be like G&W. Despite Mewtwo having things Ganon doesn't like, the ridiculous percents Ganon can kill at against super lightweights trump everything else in the matchup. Mewtwo dies to jab at less than 100%. Mewtwo just plain doesn't get to make mistakes.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mewtwo is probably going to be like G&W. Despite Mewtwo having things Ganon doesn't like, the ridiculous percents Ganon can kill at against super lightweights trump everything else in the matchup. Mewtwo dies to jab at less than 100%. Mewtwo just plain doesn't get to make mistakes.

Mewtwo does have two advantages G&W doesn't, those being a strong projectile that forces Ganon to approach and much better kill power. Mewtwo is a bigger target though. I feel like it's even with defaults and a slight edge to Ganon with customs.

 

[Blobface]

Is Ganon's Fair disjointed? I did some messing around with pausing and his fist always seemed to be touching the other character when I paused. Is his fist intangible?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is Ganon's Fair disjointed? I did some messing around with pausing and his fist always seemed to be touching the other character when I paused. Is his fist intangible?

It can cancel some projectiles and trade with some aerial attacks.

 

[Opana]

Mewtwo also has Teleport, which grants him invincibility meaning we have no potential to gimp him out of it. GnW's is difficult but gimpable, in a similar way to Ness' recovery with a less intense risk/reward.

@ adom4 Really nice game vs. DkWill, you made some excellent reads as did Will. I actually want to incorporate fsmash reads like you do, you use them more effectively than anyone I've fough, in my opinion at least.

@ Ray_Kalm is Dthrow to Fair true? You land that on me a lot although I'm unsure in all honesty.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Depends on the opponent's DI. If they are to DI towards you and up, yes.

Sometimes, in some situations, you could compel your opponent to do that.

And, just to note, you need to be quick with the decision, inputs, buffer, and positioning of the fair.