Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Blobface]

It's funny, Ganon's dash attack, despite killing much much later, was actually buffed significantly in this game just because it's a frame 10 attack that covers a third of the stage and dumps people right above you in an awkward position; and the character that uses it has the deadliest advantage in the game.

I still don't get why it kills every character at 140% regardless of weight though.

 

[Xinc]

It's funny, Ganon's dash attack, despite killing much much later, was actually buffed significantly in this game just because it's a frame 10 attack that covers a third of the stage and dumps people right above you in an awkward position; and the character that uses it has the deadliest advantage in the game.

I still don't get why it kills every character at 140% regardless of weight though.

Probably to give you an answer to finally get a surprise kill if your opponent is still alive. Probably the knock back scaling is tremendous. Not sure.

 

[Rizen]

That is weird about DA according to this:
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
"Dash Attack
Frame 10-12: 14%(+1) 50b/80g (KO@ 153%) 70°
Frame 13-19: 10%(+1) 45b/60g (KO@ 285%) 80°
Max Damage: 14%"
The first 3 frames have good KB growth. IDK.

Does Dark Fists have armor frames?

The custom move set I'm using is 2222 but I'm not sure what is best. My reasoning is:
Warlock blade has good range and that's worth the lesser power trade off. Flame wave deals more damage, is a grab type move and kills without a read; it probably has better overall payoff than flame choke because the benefits are guaranteed. Dark Fists I heard were good but I can't remember exactly why; maybe a strong OoS kill move. Wizard's Dropkick weaves around projectiles sort of like bouncing fish.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That is weird about DA according to this:
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
"Dash Attack
Frame 10-12: 14%(+1) 50b/80g (KO@ 153%) 70°
Frame 13-19: 10%(+1) 45b/60g (KO@ 285%) 80°
Max Damage: 14%"
The first 3 frames have good KB growth. IDK.

Does Dark Fists have armor frames?

The custom move set I'm using is 2222 but I'm not sure what is best. My reasoning is:
Warlock blade has good range and that's worth the lesser power trade off. Flame wave deals more damage, is a grab type move and kills without a read; it probably has better overall payoff than flame choke because the benefits are guaranteed. Dark Fists I heard were good but I can't remember exactly why; maybe a strong OoS kill move. Wizard's Dropkick weaves around projectiles sort of like bouncing fish.

Dark Fists is hella good. It has Super Armour AND kills pretty early as well.
Seriously, I've seen it kill at 70% with DI on FD.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

Flame Wave is that move that sends the opponent flying upward, right? I like that one.

 

[Blobface]

That is weird about DA according to this:
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
"Dash Attack
Frame 10-12: 14%(+1) 50b/80g (KO@ 153%) 70°
Frame 13-19: 10%(+1) 45b/60g (KO@ 285%) 80°
Max Damage: 14%"
The first 3 frames have good KB growth. IDK.

Does Dark Fists have armor frames?

The custom move set I'm using is 2222 but I'm not sure what is best. My reasoning is:
Warlock blade has good range and that's worth the lesser power trade off. Flame wave deals more damage, is a grab type move and kills without a read; it probably has better overall payoff than flame choke because the benefits are guaranteed. Dark Fists I heard were good but I can't remember exactly why; maybe a strong OoS kill move. Wizard's Dropkick weaves around projectiles sort of like bouncing fish.

The WP custom options are more a matter of personal preference really. Each one serves a different purpose.
Flame Wave's problem is simple; it replaces Flame Choke. Losing a burst movement option that beats shield is just too severe a loss to justify the extra power. Plus, FW barely goes farther than dash grab range, which gives at least as much reward and is way safer. The only time where you'd want to take something besides Flame Choke is against Rosalina where Flame Chain is much more useful.
Dropkick is primarily useful in match ups where recovery is a priority, like Sheik, Rosalina, and Villager, as well as matchups where it can punish projectiles off a read, like Sheik and ZSS. Other than that, Wizkick is usually better. It's much better onstage for punishes and aerial Wizkick can land stupid early kills if you use it to counter juggles. (Dropkick is also good against Ganon himself)
Dark Fists is easily one of the best customs in the game. It counters safe SH'd aerials (which Ganon normally hates), counters edgeguards, and counters horizontal combos like Sheik's F-air. And 70%? Don't make me laugh, this move can kill below 50% if you land it midair, even lower if you're playing on a stage with a low ceiling. Combined with Wizkick, it gives Ganon the deadliest disadvantage in the game, when he already had the deadliest advantage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The WP custom options are more a matter of personal preference really. Each one serves a different purpose.
Flame Wave's problem is simple; it replaces Flame Choke. Losing a burst movement option that beats shield is just too severe a loss to justify the extra power. Plus, FW barely goes farther than dash grab range, which gives at least as much reward and is way safer. The only time where you'd want to take something besides Flame Choke is against Rosalina where Flame Chain is much more useful.
Dropkick is primarily useful in match ups where recovery is a priority, like Sheik, Rosalina, and Villager, as well as matchups where it can punish projectiles off a read, like Sheik and ZSS. Other than that, Wizkick is usually better. It's much better onstage for punishes and aerial Wizkick can land stupid early kills if you use it to counter juggles. (Dropkick is also good against Ganon himself)
Dark Fists is easily one of the best customs in the game. It counters safe SH'd aerials (which Ganon normally hates), counters edgeguards, and counters horizontal combos like Sheik's F-air. And 70%? Don't make me laugh, this move can kill below 50% if you land it midair, even lower if you're playing on a stage with a low ceiling. Combined with Wizkick, it gives Ganon the deadliest disadvantage in the game, when he already had the deadliest advantage.

Largely agree with you on Wave vs. Choke vs. Chain. I'd consider also using Chain against Link or someone with bad Choke followups, but Chain is only the clear-cut preferred choice against Rosa. I will say that Flame Wave is great in doubles though, and if Ganon gets his grab/dash grab buffed in the next patch he'll have more freedom to opt for his custom Side-Bs, but for now Choke is generally the way to go.

 

[WaluigiWeegeeSteel]

Can someone link me to the Ganondorf Skype thread?
Also, are there any specific match ups where the vanilla warlock punch is better than the blade, just curious

 

[HeavyLobster]

Can someone link me to the Ganondorf Skype thread?
Also, are there any specific match ups where the vanilla warlock punch is better than the blade, just curious

Punch is better than Blade at least vs. Charizard, Falcon, Bowser, and probably Dedede and the Ganon ditto.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can someone link me to the Ganondorf Skype thread?
Also, are there any specific match ups where the vanilla warlock punch is better than the blade, just curious

Jigglypuff. Best punish for Rest (and Sing).

Sometimes okay against King DeDeDe if he ever recovers high with his Up-B.

 

[Vermanubis]

Good for Jiggles' rollout, too.

 

[toadster101]

It's funny, Ganon's dash attack, despite killing much much later, was actually buffed significantly in this game just because it's a frame 10 attack that covers a third of the stage and dumps people right above you in an awkward position; and the character that uses it has the deadliest advantage in the game.

I still don't get why it kills every character at 140% regardless of weight though.

Ganondorf's dash attack is amazing. It does a great job at punishing campy players who refuse to die. Guaranteed KOs are nice.

 

[the king of murder]

For anyone who has trouble with Sonic maybe this little video can help

 

[Blobface]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would be interested in having a "Thunderstorm Memorial Tournament", where we all play Ganon with the default agility and brawn badges equipped*?

*this allows Ganon to thunderstorm again.

 

[Vermanubis]

It's moments like these I'm proud to be a member of these boards.

 

[Z1GMA]

Alright, the next balance-patch is getting closer.
When it comes to Ganon:
1. What are you hoping for?

2. What are realistically hoping for?

3. What do you think we will get?

 

[Z1GMA]

Alright, the next balance-patch is getting closer.
When it comes to Ganon:
1. What are you hoping for?

2. What are realistically hoping for?

3. What do you think we will get?

1. SH AC Dair, Utilt Launch Cancel, faster jab, better grab-range, less lag after Gerudo.
2. Faster jab (like frame 6), or slightly better grab-range (increased by like 15%).
3. No idea. Probably less ending-lag on a couple of moves, or simply nothing.

 

[Kyogokudo]

1. Thunderstorming, a grab with an actual range, a faster jab, less lag on most moves because why not
2. Nothing
3. See 2. I'm sure the developpers think Ganon is fine like that. Besides you need characters to fill the bottom/low tiers, and we're kinda used to this, right?

 

[Z1GMA]

If jab hit on frame 6, I Believe it could hit everyone after a Gerudo.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I thought Jab just went straight over most characters after Gerudo. It's guaranteed(unteched) on everyone it does hit I believe. As far as the patch is concerned,
1. Frame 5 or 6 Jab, improved grab range, FHAC Fair, a couple of frames of landing lag shaved off of Fair and Dair, 2nd hit of DSmash pushing shielding opponents away, Dark Dive coming out a couple of frames faster and/or doing 1-2% more damage
2. Jab/Grab buffs, maybe one or two other buffs.
3. Some improvement, but not of the sort that we want/need most. We'll get maybe 1 neat buff that marginally improves Ganon, a trivial change here or there, and not much else. We won't get any improvement we're asking for though.

 

[Vermanubis]

My wishes are pretty Spartan lol. Nothing on all three for me, though I like Lobster's picks.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not an optimist. I don't think Ganon will get any needed buffs

I'm curious why Flame choke is better than Flame wave since they both grab. Does choke go farther? It seems like since choke is tech-able now flame wave is a fair trade off because the kills are guaranteed at higher %s.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I thought Jab just went straight over most characters after Gerudo. It's guaranteed(unteched) on everyone it does hit I believe. As far as the patch is concerned,
1. Frame 5 or 6 Jab, improved grab range, FHAC Fair, a couple of frames of landing lag shaved off of Fair and Dair, 2nd hit of DSmash pushing shielding opponents away, Dark Dive coming out a couple of frames faster and/or doing 1-2% more damage
2. Jab/Grab buffs, maybe one or two other buffs.
3. Some improvement, but not of the sort that we want/need most. We'll get maybe 1 neat buff that marginally improves Ganon, a trivial change here or there, and not much else. We won't get any improvement we're asking for though.

If my knowledge of animations is correct, faster startup on Jab would catch every character on bouncing frames of their knockdown animation. Samus and Link for instance are fairly skinny when lying on the ground, but get hit by Jab because Jab catches them during a very specific part of their knockdown animation.

But yeah, the main things I want are a slightly faster Jab, bugfixes to F-air and D-smash, and small improvements to all of Ganon's special moves so that there is a reason to use different custom sets.

 

[Kyogokudo]

I'm not an optimist. I don't think Ganon will get any needed buffs

I'm curious why Flame choke is better than Flame wave since they both grab. Does choke go farther? It seems like since choke is tech-able now flame wave is a fair trade off because the kills are guaranteed at higher %s.

Wave has a slower startup and choke go farther. I don't think Ganon need one more kill move that much, especially since that one isn't too strong. Choke is just so important for Ganon's game anyways, both for racking up damage or even for killing. (famsh/ftilt/dair reads)

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm not an optimist. I don't think Ganon will get any needed buffs

I'm curious why Flame choke is better than Flame wave since they both grab. Does choke go farther? It seems like since choke is tech-able now flame wave is a fair trade off because the kills are guaranteed at higher %s.

This is something I've been considering as well. Flame Wave has potential, in spite of how slow it is. It travels about 2/3 the distance of Choke, and has probably 30% more startup, but it can kill really early even on heavies. It's definitely not as utilitarian as Choke -- not even marginally so -- but a deathgrab, slow it may be, though feasible with adequate conditioning, is worth looking in to.

I don't think Ganon need one more kill move that much

In general, he definitely doesn't. But when people start using shield a lot and not rolling/spotdodging, AND consistently tech chokes, Flame Wave's purpose makes itself manifest. It's not uncommon for people like this to live past 150%, so a move that just cuts the **** and unconditionally kills is attractive in my eyes.

 

[Rizen]

Okay, that's good to know about choke being faster and traveling farther than Wave. Choke sounds better overall but wave might be useful in MUs where Ganon has to chase and can't easily land hits.

 

[Vermanubis]

Okay, that's good to know about choke being faster and traveling farther than Wave. Choke sounds better overall but wave might be useful in MUs where Ganon has to chase and can't easily land hits.

That's where I think it'd be useful, too. Even if you never land it, just letting your opponent know you have that is a strong point of leverage.

 

[adom4]

This is something I've been considering as well. Flame Wave has potential, in spite of how slow it is. It travels about 2/3 the distance of Choke, and has probably 30% more startup, but it can kill really early even on heavies. It's definitely not as utilitarian as Choke -- not even marginally so -- but a deathgrab, slow it may be, though feasible with adequate conditioning, is worth looking in to.



In general, he definitely doesn't. But when people start using shield a lot and not rolling/spotdodging, AND consistently tech chokes, Flame Wave's purpose makes itself manifest. It's not uncommon for people like this to live past 150%, so a move that just cuts the **** and unconditionally kills is attractive in my eyes.

Flame wave is actually pretty decent in doubles, it's a lot easier landing it & the knockback helps since it's harder getting follow ups off chokes for obvious reasons

 

[Z1GMA]

Also, Flame Wave is a lot harder to spotdodge than Flame Choke - especially for heavys.

 

[jmanup85]

Maybe a way to make Flame Wave more viable would be to give the move super armor during the move on the ground (probably not in the air, but I'd welcome that) like how Little Mac has super armor on one of his custom side b moves.

 

[Bloodynite]

Greetings everyone it has been a long time since I have checked in with my fellow dorfs. I have been busy with work and I actually got back into university to finish my last semester and will hopefully graduate on May 16th.

I miss being active in smash but maybe I can return soon and remind everyone why Ganon should always be feared. I posted my last tourney match video on the other thread if anyone wants to see it for analysis/critique.

 

[Blobface]

Greetings everyone it has been a long time since I have checked in with my fellow dorfs. I have been busy with work and I actually got back into university to finish my last semester and will hopefully graduate on May 16th.

I miss being active in smash but maybe I can return soon and remind everyone why Ganon should always be feared. I posted my last tourney match video on the other thread if anyone wants to see it for analysis/critique.

Your 666th message

How fitting.

On the subject of buffs.

1. Ganondorf's weight buffed to 150 because no pathetic turtle should weigh more than him, Warlock made into an absolute instantkill no matter where or how it hits you, Picking Sheik, Rosalina, Villager, or ZSS against Ganon causes the game to automatically go to the win screen with Ganondorf winning upon selecting a stage. (In all seriousness, I'd love Wizkick to have lower startup and Choke to cover more distance, along with the stuff below)

2. Slightly faster jab (frame 6), very slightly longer grab range (just so it doesn't whiff because your opponent saw a penny and bent down to grab. Whiffing after P-shielding someones attack because their animation ever so slightly twisted out of the way of it is just annoying).

3. Slightly longer grab range, maybe a faster jab.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Your 666th message

How fitting.

On the subject of buffs.

1. Ganondorf's weight buffed to 150 because no pathetic turtle should weigh more than him, Warlock made into an absolute instantkill no matter where or how it hits you, Picking Sheik, Rosalina, Villager, or ZSS against Ganon causes the game to automatically go to the win screen with Ganondorf winning upon selecting a stage. (In all seriousness, I'd love Wizkick to have lower startup and Choke to cover more distance, along with the stuff below)

2. Slightly faster jab (frame 6), very slightly longer grab range (just so it doesn't whiff because your opponent saw a penny and bent down to grab. Whiffing after P-shielding someones attack because their animation ever so slightly twisted out of the way of it is just annoying).

3. Slightly longer grab range, maybe a faster jab.

Speaking of Choke buffs, If they would make its distance similar to Flame chain ima be so happy XD

Needless to say, ima try and be on this when it comes to figuring out Ganon's Buffs and Nerfs


Plz no nerfs plz no nerfs plz no nerfs

 

[Z1GMA]

Gerudo is better than Aerudo, no doubt, but when it comes to Flame Wave, the aerial verion is surperior to the grounded version.
Aerudo can be kinda OK when performed OoS as a punisher, but aerial Flame Wave is more than OK when performed OoS - it's better than the grounded version anyway.

Aerial Wave also does 20% damage and kills considerably earlier than Ground Wave.

Flame Wave excels greatly on stages with platforms such as Battlefield, as the aerial version kills lv9 Mario at 85% if he's standing on one of the lower platforms -- or even standing under one of them (lifting him up and crashing hm down on it)

On the highest platform, it kills at 70%.

 

[Naroghin]

Man, all this talk about customs is causing me to consider looking into them. Call me a purist.

As for buffs: I think the only thing I'd want that hasn't been mentioned so far is a faster pummel speed. It just feels like I have to wait so long after a pummel before I can throw. I just want to get a few hits in before I attempt any further stringing. Or perhaps I can't string because my opponent is at too high a percent and I just want to make sure a Uair will kill them before I Bthrow them directly off the edge.

Oh, and of course, I can't participate in any patch discussion without mentioning the good ol' Flight of Ganon.

Edit: Not that I think they would blatantly put it in, just that I'm hoping for a serendipitous side-effect of some other tweak to, say, Dspecial, landing lag, jump mechanics, etc. A guy can dream.

 

[Blobface]

So I've been hyping Dark Fists a lot (not to say we didn't think it's a good move), but I'd never properly tested it's kill %'s with rage. So I have Ganon at 150% and Mario at 0, and I pummel and hit him with other attacks to both keep DF fresh and get him to the right %. I DI'd downward with a second controller against the second hit.

It killed at 36% minimum.

It turns out, rage buffs both hits of Dark Fists. So not only do they get hit much harder, but they get dragged much higher as well.

And this was on Mario! You don't want to know the %'s it killed lighter weight characters at. It's too brutal.

There is no hope now

 

[HeavyLobster]

So I've been hyping Dark Fists a lot (not to say we didn't think it's a good move), but I'd never properly tested it's kill %'s with rage. So I have Ganon at 150% and Mario at 0, and I pummel and hit him with other attacks to both keep DF fresh and get him to the right %. I DI'd downward with a second controller against the second hit.

It killed at 36% minimum.

It turns out, rage buffs both hits of Dark Fists. So not only do they get hit much harder, but they get dragged much higher as well.

And this was on Mario! You don't want to know the %'s it killed lighter weight characters at. It's too brutal.

There is no hope now

Shh... The patch is coming out in a few days. Don't tell Samurai.

 

[Blobface]

I can't see a nerf happening. That's with full rage for starters, and the move has short range and 15 frame startup. Getting a hit with it requires the other person to screw up hard.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can't see a nerf happening. That's with full rage for starters, and the move has short range and 15 frame startup. Getting a hit with it requires the other person to screw up hard.

Not necessarily due to the armor. It does require a hard read though, and you're a sitting duck if you miss, so it probably won't. It's the only thing about Ganon that's really got any shot at being nerfed in the future outside of any overbuffs he may get in upcoming patches that would need to be undone.

 

[Z1GMA]

Hey, guys, you wanna do those manly Ganon Pics again, like back in Brawl?