Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Naroghin]

Sooo, weird question for my fellow Ganly-Gans: how do you deal with enigmatically competent players? I feel like if I notice a player is bad, I can go ham and have fun, using strings that would normally not work or trying new things out; while, if I notice a player is good, I pull off effective mixups, employ mindgames, and make solid reads. But sometimes there are players that certainly show evidence of being a bad player (making mistakes, missing punishes, playing dangerously), but still manage, despite my best reading efforts and tech skill, to get in enough solid hits to bring me to the last stock or even make a win.

Anyone else experience this phenomenon?

 

[Wintropy]

Sooo, weird question for my fellow Ganly-Gans: how do you deal with enigmatically competent players? I feel like if I notice a player is bad, I can go ham and have fun, using strings that would normally not work or trying new things out; while, if I notice a player is good, I pull off effective mixups, employ mindgames, and make solid reads. But sometimes there are players that certainly show evidence of being a bad player (making mistakes, missing punishes, playing dangerously), but still manage, despite my best reading efforts and tech skill, to get in enough solid hits to bring me to the last stock or even make a win.

Anyone else experience this phenomenon?

Almost consistently.

I like to think that these players are deliberately pulling their punches to gauge your own skill level, and then adjusting it to suit the matchup. Possibly these players are just playing for funsies and aren't taking it too seriously, yet are innately proficient enough to put up something of a challenge.

It would be wise to not mistake this for arrogance. More often than not, these players are not attempting to prove anything, but just have a good time and not make much of a fuss about it. These players may also be practicing with a lesser-used character, and their skill level reflects the manner in which they are sort of skilled with this character, but still have a lot to learn.

I'm also probably totally wrong, but it makes me feel better.

 

[Naroghin]

@ Wintropy Those are certainly viable possibilities, though i would still expect to see fundamentals being displayed. Usually sandbaggers and those trying out a new character are marked by inaction and their mistakes usually look like missed punishes or dropped strings.

Sometimes it seems like they are a casual/new player with incredibly good instincts or reaction abilities. They may continually make mistakes but happen to be in unpunishable situations and can land what look like hard reads. I was playing a Ganon this morning who approached with wizkick, SD'd from sideB, stayed on the edge past invincibility (punished multiple times for it), and always get-up-attacked out of my aerudos (to be shield grabbed); and yet, he landed the most ridiculous charged smashes and always managed to get the ftilt right at the perfect moment when I was at high percents. Am I going crazy?

 

[Wintropy]

@ Wintropy Those are certainly viable possibilities, though i would still expect to see fundamentals being displayed. Usually sandbaggers and those trying out a new character are marked by inaction and their mistakes usually look like missed punishes or dropped strings.

Sometimes it seems like they are a casual/new player with incredibly good instincts or reaction abilities. They may continually make mistakes but happen to be in unpunishable situations and can land what look like hard reads. I was playing a Ganon this morning who approached with wizkick, SD'd from sideB, stayed on the edge past invincibility (punished multiple times for it), and always get-up-attacked out of my aerudos (to be shield grabbed); and yet, he landed the most ridiculous charged smashes and always managed to get the ftilt right at the perfect moment when I was at high percents. Am I going crazy?

It's highly possible. My brother (incidentally the best player I've ever met) has this savant-esque ability to just pick up any character, even a character he doesn't play to any meaningful degree, and instinctively know what to do. He'll make mistakes and flub most of his moves, sure, but he'll get into the swing of things and pull out a win through sheer determination and cocky sentiment.

He exemplifies the mantra that performance trumps theory. And sometimes the players you encounter just have that natural aptitude, but it isn't quite fully honed yet; you're only witnessing a rough estimation of what they can really do. They've got, like, half the theory in their heads, and the rest just needs to be fine-tuned before it's ready to go. It's like test-driving a new racing machine before taking it to the actual rally. These players have got the chassis and wheels and **** and are basically familiar with how to start and drift, but these players don't know how to pull wheelies or skid donuts.

Alternate theory: these players exist solely to screw with you and make you think you're going crazy.

Which would take a lot more skill and coordination that just playing ordinarily.

I'd sure love to meet a player like that.

Very Ganondorf indeed. :3

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most of you probably have not heard of Papaya. I honestly know very little about him myself, but he's been getting some attention in the Japanese Ganon community for his streams and entertaining video uploads. He looks up to Ganon mains like Rudori, Pon, and Gungnir as examples to follow, and his videos humorously reflect this.

I got to play him once a few weeks ago, he beat me with a clutch Ganoncide in a pretty good match that I saved and probably will upload hopefully this weekend (school and laziness are rough obstacles). He's requested that I play him again (should happen on the 12th if communications worked out and I wake up on schedule). I have a feeling that the Japanese Ganon community is aware that I frequently visit their streams on Nicovideo.

I am of course aiming to judge his skill for placement on our community tier list. I will show him my skill as a defensive Ganon main.

 

[Blobface]

I would like to point out that Papaya's twitter avatar contains 7 Ganondorf's.





Not nearly enough.

 

[Jae]

"Ganondorf is God"
hell yeah

 

[Blobface]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any Ganon's going to Evo? I'd love to see Gungnir literally Wizard's Foot in from the ceiling to challenge the winner of the grand finals at the last minute, JV-5-stocking 3 times in a row to take Evo, removing all doubt of the Dark Lord's dominance.

 

[Ffamran]

This is hilarious; I don't know if it's been posted here before.

Just found this. It is entirely necessary I can no longer exist without this in my life.

 

[Cazdon]

This is hilarious; I don't know if it's been posted here before.

It literally just came out today.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, I'll probably be at Evo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I'll probably be at Evo.

I am impressed. I don't feel motivated enough to go to Evo currently given I'm generally speaking not a fan of traveling plus I'm bad.

Though depending on how many people go there...I am tempted to meet more friends should the opportunity arise. I certainly would be interested to meet you in person for the sake of sinister and intellectual discussion, and of course getting to see how tall in fact you are.

 

[HeavyLobster]

A question for seasoned Ganon mains. Is it true that once you reach a certain skill level you get an invisible hard read leprechaun that whispers "FSmash" in your ear every so often and is usually right? Because that's how it feels a lot of the time when I play Ganon. Unfortunately said leprechaun occasionally gets drunk and tells me to throw out punishable moves left and right for no good reason, but most of the time he does a good job of recognizing misspaced attacks and roll/spotdodge patterns. I've still got a long way to go, especially in terms of being more reliable on the technical side of things, but I feel my read and punish game is getting noticeably better.

 

[Vermanubis]

I am impressed. I don't feel motivated enough to go to Evo currently given I'm generally speaking not a fan of traveling plus I'm bad.

Though depending on how many people go there...I am tempted to meet more friends should the opportunity arise. I certainly would be interested to meet you in person for the sake of sinister and intellectual discussion, and of course getting to see how tall in fact you are.

I think I'd really enjoy talking with you, too, A2. As for how tall I am...

Honestly though, the only reason I wouldn't go is because I genuinely dislike customs. They require a domain of knowledge far beyond what I think is reasonably attainable to be competitively consistent and competent. I kind of feel like custom tourneys will forever be considered, in some sense, illegitimate. The monthlies I usually try to attend a few hours north of me in Washington are holding a customs tourney this weekend, which I did plan on going to until, well, they decided to make it a custom tourney. Not too sure I want to travel 4 hours and pour my best efforts into something that'll ultimately be contrasted with some kind of counterfactual involving "would this have happened in a normal tourney?"

Better stated, until customs become the competitive norm, if they do, I can't see myself putting a lot of effort into them. If going to tournaments weren't a sizeable time and money commitment for me, it'd be different, but...

Also @ HeavyLobster

Though the Satsui no Hadou's child's play compared to what we have, I feel it describes the nature of it pretty well: http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Satsui_no_Hado

 

[Ekans647]

I wish I could go to national tournaments, but I can't because I'm a minor. Would be awesome though to learn in person from the greats since I'll never win a tournament HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

@ Vermanubis How tall are you anyway? I'm 179-180cm, but it's been a while since I measured.

 

[Vermanubis]

I wish I could go to national tournaments, but I can't because I'm a minor. Would be awesome though to learn in person from the greats since I'll never win a tournament HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

@ Vermanubis How tall are you anyway? I'm 179-180cm, but it's been a while since I measured.

I wish I could go to more tournaments, period. =P

Also, I'm about 193cm/76 inches/6'4"

 

[A2ZOMG]

As I recall, I'm surprisingly average in height. About 5'9''...which I think is about 175cm. Which makes me slightly taller than a lot of other Asians. Sounds like you're about a head taller than me Verm.

I'm extremely light for my height though. I range from around 110-115 pounds. No, I swear I don't play Ganon to compensate for something. In contrast, my sinister black cloak jacket I think makes me evil enough.

 

[Ekans647]

I wish I could go to more tournaments, period. =P

Also, I'm about 193cm/76 inches/6'4"

Holy wow, you'd be amazing at Ganondorf cosplays. I've always wanted to cosplay as my main.

 

[Ffamran]

Also @ HeavyLobster

Though the Satsui no Hadou's child's play compared to what we have, I feel it describes the nature of it pretty well: http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Satsui_no_Hado

These songs describe how I feel when I play as Ganondorf and a couple of other characters: Kill 'Em All by Ox, We Play by Doujah Raze, Ruthless by Tre-Dot and from Anarchy Reigns, Suffer, Divine Hate, and Taste the Blood from DMC3, The Time Has Come from DMC4, How Old is Your Soul and Empty by Combichrist, and The Only Thing I Know For Real and Red Sun from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Fights always gets the blood boiling... Blood rage...

"With blood and rage of crimson red,
Ripped from a corpse so freshly dead,
Together with our hellish hate,
We'll burn you all--that is your fate!"

I wonder if someone knows that reference. And speaking of rage... Asura's Wrath was a good idea, but the execution made it a weird "game".

 

[jahkzheng]

@ Wintropy Those are certainly viable possibilities, though i would still expect to see fundamentals being displayed. Usually sandbaggers and those trying out a new character are marked by inaction and their mistakes usually look like missed punishes or dropped strings.

Sometimes it seems like they are a casual/new player with incredibly good instincts or reaction abilities. They may continually make mistakes but happen to be in unpunishable situations and can land what look like hard reads. I was playing a Ganon this morning who approached with wizkick, SD'd from sideB, stayed on the edge past invincibility (punished multiple times for it), and always get-up-attacked out of my aerudos (to be shield grabbed); and yet, he landed the most ridiculous charged smashes and always managed to get the ftilt right at the perfect moment when I was at high percents. Am I going crazy?

That oddly sounds like my Ganon, lol. Except I don't always get up attack and I only hang on the edge too long if I'm confused about what to do next. I make lots of mistakes but I often trick people into fsmash. I can tell you it wasn't me though because I've not 1v1'd with Ganon in a few weeks.

I know exactly the type though Naroghin. Early in this thread I talked about meeting the Link version of that. Super predictable but always so safe, even when I was in tight. I was consistently surprised how quickly he'd be free to attack or roll away after stuff like smashes and dair. Stuff I'm really used to being punishable. I was a bit miffed. It was pretty bad how many times I'd see him smash or land after a laggy aerial and I'd think I could punish and he'd just jab or roll away and attack. I felt really slow compared to him.

 

[Naroghin]

Well, this wasn't even hanging on the ledge too long; this Ganon would go to the edge randomly and just regrab 3-6 times for lulzies I guess.

Yes, as we're seeing quite a bit now, Link can be a powerful character in the hands of these types of players. He's just fast enough to cover major mistakes, yet has the kill power to eek out a good stock or two. Also, his many projectiles can make online play an issue just because powershielding isn't as reliable during lag.

In the past week alone I've made quite a bit of progress and have been better able to deal with these types of players. A lot of it is technical proficiency but most of it is just watching for consistencies and choosing the correct punish, while eliminating consistencies in your own play. Perhaps we should play sometime and train on the "sophomoric enigma" matchup.

 

[Pikachutobal]

Hello everyone, I am pikachutobal
I came here because Ganondorf is my best secondary character or my third main and I want to improve with him
I hope to contribute and help as much as possible c:

 

[jahkzheng]

Well, this wasn't even hanging on the ledge too long; this Ganon would go to the edge randomly and just regrab 3-6 times for lulzies I guess.

Yes, as we're seeing quite a bit now, Link can be a powerful character in the hands of these types of players. He's just fast enough to cover major mistakes, yet has the kill power to eek out a good stock or two. Also, his many projectiles can make online play an issue just because powershielding isn't as reliable during lag.

In the past week alone I've made quite a bit of progress and have been better able to deal with these types of players. A lot of it is technical proficiency but most of it is just watching for consistencies and choosing the correct punish, while eliminating consistencies in your own play. Perhaps we should play sometime and train on the "sophomoric enigma" matchup.

He may have been just trying to go for cide kills and hoping you'd get close.

I need to practice more with Ganon. My old habits are often good enough against the average FG player, but every now and then I run into someone that doesn't fall for that and I'm a bit lost. Takes me a while to adapt to that and even then I can only manage to make the games closer on average. I still am fully capable of getting wrecked quite easy though. My mistakes seem to hurt me way more than most other people experience, heh.

For instance, I was playing Fox a couple nights ago and that experience was kind of my Smash experience since I went online with Brawl in a nutshell. I was infamous for my SDs on fsmash.org during the Brawl days. Sometimes I'd just hand my opponents a stock advantage. Fox is pretty fast and rough to handle at times too. One match in particular with Fox I started the match off with a string that kept going unanswered for 50 or so percent. But it was like running on water... eventually I went down. The controls got away from me and my string went off the edge. I died with 0% dairing right through my opponent offstage. It was a ROB so he just recovered from low after I killed myself. Maybe if Fox's dair dragged down like Kirby's it would've been pretty awesome, but instead it was a flashy string that ended in a true SD.

Likewise my matches with Gungnir in the tourney here featured two SDs - one in each of my two matches. It was disappointing since I didn't really even get to see Gungnir wreck me properly since I wrecked myself half the time. Admittedly, both happened when I was in a disadvantaged position and I may have been dead in short order regardless. One was an aerial wizkick to aid a high recovery. The plan was to wizkick down toward the stage edge and side B to grab it after the wizkick ended. I inputed way later than planned though and used side B under the stage and died. The other SD was one that was the result of Gungnir scaring me and I probably was dead anyways. I was again going to side B to grab the stage edge, but then Gungnir approached me off stage. I tried to pull away from him in my fall animation so that my side B didn't initiate in a vulnerable position. Apparently I didn't input forward on the control stick soon enough after pulling back so I used side B in the wrong direction away from the stage. Gungnir didn't even have to touch me. He basically jumped off stage toward me and scared me into killing myself. Ultimate tech, lol.

 

[Naroghin]

Hello everyone, I am pikachutobal
I came here because Ganondorf is my best secondary character or my third main and I want to improve with him
I hope to contribute and help as much as possible c:

Welcome! Always good to see a fresh face in these hallowed halls!

@ jahkzheng I hear you there. I don't really self destruct much but I tend to avoid offstage play as it can end in bad situations. Much of it has to do with having not yet learned the other characters' options or tendencies, so I can flub an edgeguard or recover right into a trap. I'm still trying it but I often give up a stock too soon or miss opportunities to take an early stock from the opponent.

The fear is real. Sometimes I can even feel it when I'm just watching videos of the top Ganons play.

 

[jahkzheng]

Welcome! Always good to see a fresh face in these hallowed halls!

@ jahkzheng I hear you there. I don't really self destruct much but I tend to avoid offstage play as it can end in bad situations. Much of it has to do with having not yet learned the other characters' options or tendencies, so I can flub an edgeguard or recover right into a trap. I'm still trying it but I often give up a stock too soon or miss opportunities to take an early stock from the opponent.

The fear is real. Sometimes I can even feel it when I'm just watching videos of the top Ganons play.

There's a stupid side of me that's hard to suppress. It's the embodiment of a dream to go and do whatever I please without consequence. It wants me to jump off the edge to get an impossible kill and return with style. It thinks it's tool assisted and hacked to be as absurdly OP as possible.

I have to temper this stupid basic endlessly optimistic instinct with reason and logic. I have to constantly say to myself, "no me, it wouldn't be wise to jump off the edge toward the blastzone and go for a punch with Falcon. You'll never return and the opponent will see it coming a mile away." But it insists with, "No! I have too! It would be too amazing!". Logic side of me wins usually if only because indecision is a victim of time. But sometimes those basic brain steam functions activate in a flash and beat logic to the finish line and before you know it I'm making a leap my hands can hardly keep up with". Sometimes something amazing happens, but mostly not. Then I wonder, "what was that even?"


Yes, the fear was real. I really need to fight more of you guys when I have more available time.

 

[Naroghin]

Yeah, I tend to have the opposite side of the same stupidity. My brain usually says things like, "Hey, you should just stand on the stage where it's safe; I mean, who knows? Maybe they'll SD," and "I dunno, it looks awfully dangerous down there. One wrong move and BAM!" and "Does it feel laggy in here to you? I would hate to be offstage when a lag-spike hits and drops your crucially-timed input..."

I have to consciously tell myself to wizkick-cancel to rising Dair or ledge trump to Bair or even just walk-off falling Nair. It's such a hassle.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

There's a stupid side of me that's hard to suppress. It's the embodiment of a dream to go and do whatever I please without consequence. It wants me to jump off the edge to get an impossible kill and return with style. It thinks it's tool assisted and hacked to be as absurdly OP as possible.

I have to temper this stupid basic endlessly optimistic instinct with reason and logic. I have to constantly say to myself, "no me, it wouldn't be wise to jump off the edge toward the blastzone and go for a punch with Falcon. You'll never return and the opponent will see it coming a mile away." But it insists with, "No! I have too! It would be too amazing!". Logic side of me wins usually if only because indecision is a victim of time. But sometimes those basic brain steam functions activate in a flash and beat logic to the finish line and before you know it I'm making a leap my hands can hardly keep up with". Sometimes something amazing happens, but mostly not. Then I wonder, "what was that even?"

This is exactly me except the reason and logic part. My indecision is strictly "What stupid flashy thing should I try?" and I've gone for Side Bs away from the stage before.

 

[jahkzheng]

Yeah, I tend to have the opposite side of the same stupidity. My brain usually says things like, "Hey, you should just stand on the stage where it's safe; I mean, who knows? Maybe they'll SD," and "I dunno, it looks awfully dangerous down there. One wrong move and BAM!" and "Does it feel laggy in here to you? I would hate to be offstage when a lag-spike hits and drops your crucially-timed input..."

I have to consciously tell myself to wizkick-cancel to rising Dair or ledge trump to Bair or even just walk-off falling Nair. It's such a hassle.

I only have that problem because I sometimes forget those are options. Especially ledge trump to bair. I simply forget or am not technical enough to actively employ it often.

This is exactly me except the reason and logic part. My indecision is strictly "What stupid flashy thing should I try?" and I've gone for Side Bs away from the stage before.

Yes, I've done the same. I try not to so much just because I do want to give myself a chance to win and SDing left and right kinda hurts that, heh. It still happens when my brain doesn't have time to question it... and of course sometimes I just go for it. You have to just go for it and let that part of your brain get what it wants occasionally.

 

[Blobface]

Please, Ganon is all about that hype. You will crush your opponents under hype. You will strike fear into their hearts with hype. You will stomp their faces with your boots of hype.

To quote Vermanubis: "Oh, who am I kidding? Spike literally everything with extreme prejudice. There's never a time not to condemn the worms to hell."

 

[Naroghin]

Please, Ganon is all about that hype. You will crush your opponents under hype. You will strike fear into their hearts with hype. You will stomp their faces with your boots of hype.

Your words have stirred the hunger of the abyss in my blackened heart. Thank you.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm too timid to take anything I would perceive as an unnecessary risk, regardless of which character I play.

Doesn't stop me from gloriously whiffing a falling d-air miles away from the actual target~

 

[Blobface]

In all seriousness, Ganon is demoralizing. You combo him across the stage and back, then suddenly he grabs you near the edge and one stomp later, you've lost a stock. The game's coding is only part of why Ganon gains so much momentum in advantage.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

That feel during that one time you end up getting 3 successful flame choke followup reads in a row somehow. It happened to me today and i've gotta say nothing brings about the IRL evil laughter more.

 

[Z1GMA]

... stupid phone

 

[jahkzheng]

In all seriousness, Ganon is demoralizing. You combo him across the stage and back, then suddenly he grabs you near the edge and one stomp later, you've lost a stock. The game's coding is only part of why Ganon gains so much momentum in advantage.

Had a notable experience related to that recently. Was playing this guy and I can't even remember who he was using. All I remember is he beat me in the first two games pretty well. Second game I accidentally SD'd at low percent and I may have won otherwise. But then in the beginning of the third game, I got a 0 to death string on him. He just walked off the stage as soon as he respawned in an apparent rage-quit. He wasn't in the room after the victory screen. I've only had someone apparently rage-quit a match with me a few times. It's such an odd behavior especially when the player is clearly competent enough to beat you. It's pretty much the opposite of my problem. I love to stick around against people that keep beating me. I think I believe I'll eventually learn something and perhaps get a win or two with enough effort.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The one problem I have as Ganondorf is that I can't seem to avoid getting grabbed, especially by fast characters like Falcon. His 8 frame Jab is so slow and laggy and it's tough to keep people out reliably when they're charging towards you. Obviously there are ways of playing around this vs bad and predictable players, but any decent player who can force a reaction and punish it causes me problems. Spotdodge sometimes helps, but against Falcon it always seems like he can still jab before I can punish even when I properly read the dash grab. It's really frustrating considering the reward so many characters get on Dorf off of a grab, and I feel that this is the one approach option I have trouble dealing with and it always feels like I'm scrambling to avoid getting grabbed against Falcon and Diddy especially but it feels like nothing I do works with any consistency.

 

[Ekans647]

The one problem I have as Ganondorf is that I can't seem to avoid getting grabbed, especially by fast characters like Falcon. His 8 frame Jab is so slow and laggy and it's tough to keep people out reliably when they're charging towards you. Obviously there are ways of playing around this vs bad and predictable players, but any decent player who can force a reaction and punish it causes me problems. Spotdodge sometimes helps, but against Falcon it always seems like he can still jab before I can punish even when I properly read the dash grab. It's really frustrating considering the reward so many characters get on Dorf off of a grab, and I feel that this is the one approach option I have trouble dealing with and it always feels like I'm scrambling to avoid getting grabbed against Falcon and Diddy especially but it feels like nothing I do works with any consistency.

A tool I often use is pivot F-tilt. Forces the grab to wiff and allow for a solid punish. I use it with Ike a lot against falcon. Not sure how well it'll work with Ganon, since I have disjoint and higher range.

 

[HeavyLobster]

A tool I often use is pivot F-tilt. Forces the grab to wiff and allow for a solid punish. I use it with Ike a lot against falcon. Not sure how well it'll work with Ganon, since I have disjoint and higher range.

It's kind of hard to react to someone like Falcon on wifi, but yeah, I should probably try it a bit more, as it works well enough with Dedede. I know that I have options, it's just that they all feel a bit too slow and unreliable. If only Ganon's jab were a couple frames faster. Come on, Sakurai, just one little patch.

 

[Xinc]

I'd like to point out neutral air on wifi is a great tool to get you out of most sticky scenarios vs Falcon.

 

[Ekans647]

I'd like to point out neutral air on wifi is a great tool to get you out of most sticky scenarios vs Falcon.

Could you u elaborate on that? I generally use FH Dair to approach, since it beats most of my opponents options.