Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[A2ZOMG]

I basically never lose to those types of Link players, but they're super boring to play against. My game is still focused on shielding my way in, and gimping him once I land a few hits, and I just let him roll to the ledge and wait until he inevitably does something stupid (I don't care if he grabs, because his throws are terrible, and everything else he does in midrange is heavily punishable and outranged by Ganon's D-tilt and DA) and occasionally throw out attacks like N-air to cover inward roll safely. Also try hitting Link slightly from the side when he does D-air or just doing it really fast before he has time. You'll usually beat him. These terrible Link players also have no idea how to recover either most of the time meaning you can just simply throw any aerial at him when he recovers low and he'll die. Or you can often do the combo and 0-death him.

Though this may come off as harsh, honestly I can't believe I'm still listening to salt stories about Link. He's NOT difficult to play against and is one of Ganon's few explicitly favorable matchups when you realize just how limited he is in midrange. My mechanics are honestly pretty terrible, just I abuse matchup knowledge and play patiently.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I do have trouble against some of the better Links I play online because it's tricky to shield everything consistently and they're very good at creating a wall of projectiles. The bad ones are pretty easy to play against unless the lag is horrible, but getting through against the good ones can be a pain when you can't powershield everything consistently. Even so, you can usually get Link to do something punishable when you get in close, and take advantage of that.

 

[jahkzheng]

My lord. Story of my life on FG. I have Sheik and Greninja as mot others mains to beat out zoners like this.

I like how you said "story of my life", because it was practically that long~

I don't have real counterpick secondaries. I like to play Samus, Falcon, Zelda mostly if I'm not playing Ganon, but occasionally I play Ike, Fox, Falco, Palutena, Link, and Random mostly poorly. In 1v1s, I tend to stay away more from my "randomer" characters. I did think about going Samus to counter this Link, but I kind of committed to making my Ganon power through.


@ A2ZOMG
Yeah, that's why it kind of annoyed me because I felt I had every reason to beat him with how predictable he was alone. But I'm not great at adapting on the fly and kind of banged my head against a wall continually trying to punish stuff I thought for sure I should be able to like rolls, smashes, and dair mostly. Maybe the lag was worse than I realized but he seemed to react really really fast. It's not often that my usual tech chases and strings get interrupted so consistently. I felt like my moves were lagging and maybe my reactions were just slow that night. I'm pretty certain a more seasoned player like yourself would've adapted faster and found ways to punish him quicker and safer. Truth is I haven't fought too many Links this predictable and spammy but still very fast. Usually it's one thing or the other. Your knowledge of the matchup would've helped, but I feel I was beaten by more than just a matchup. I had a hard time not trying to hit him after trying to get through those projectiles especially since I didn't want him to run. But if I'd had a bit more patience, I may have been able to punish him better. His reaction game was better than mine while still being predictable, so I should've used that against him by trying to read two moves ahead. He was predictable enough that I could have, but I just didn't that often or well. Never truly got to that point in my game, although I made our later matches much closer. Wish I had more time to prove myself better, but it got pretty late. It was cool he hung around to let me keep trying I guess. He got a nice boost in his win rate, hah.

I find his midrange to be really great. Link has a good projectile game and is arguably most comfortable at midrange with his reach on disjointed hitboxes. Close pressure inside is harder for him to deal with. Perhaps I've not utilized Ganon's midrange attacks well. My timing was probably off, but he could usually sneak it some kind of hit from jab or fsmash or something. Felt like I barely missed attacks a lot if I wasn't getting interrupted too. Generally, I felt my windows for attack were really small in spite of his predictable nature. My gimp game could use some work too. Think my edgeguards may have been to predictable. I mostly tried tipmans, utilts, and dairs. If I delayed my aerial to fake him out more I might've gotten more gimps. I wouldn't say this Link was good though, I'd just say he was really fast. And I know I'm average at best so he was good enough to beat me. If he was this fast AND had mixups and actually used tilts and stuff, I'd have been lost. I think high level Links still beat high level Ganon's in most situations though. Ganon has the clear advantage in edgeguarding and in the offstage game in general and Link is gimpable, but on stage I feel Link has an advantage with his stage control and ability to punish approaches safely with his disjoints. Obviously Omega stages favor Link too. Just watch Izaw's Link. I don't want any part of that, lol, and doubt many Ganon's at all could deal with it. Would be fun to see Gungnir matchup with Izaw though.


@ HeavyLobster
Yeah, getting through this Link's projectiles wasn't too bad. It was more how he played when I did get to him. All that stuff I thought was punishable from other Link's I've fought, just wasn't punishable more often than not. Really threw my game off to have what appeared to have so many opportunities I wasn't quick enough to capitalize on. Maybe if my strings and tech chases were tighter I could've done more. I have to admit I probably played too reactively and if I committed to more and harder reads with proper timing, I'd have done better. Or maybe, like I said earlier, I'd have been better off being patient and trying to punish his attacks and moves two steps ahead, but even OoS I felt too slow. My timing and spacing also felt off with how small my windows were and how much he moved and attacked.

I'd like to have more deliberately mixed in nair like A2 suggested. Dtilt should've worked more too, but I think I just timed and spaced to poorly too often. He could usually shield it properly and still get the roll behind me, and I'm used to dtilt catching that sort of thing. In general, my reactions were just too slow. I needed to read two actions ahead or just get faster since a lot of my attacks were quick reactions to what he was doing or what I knew he'd do, that were still often too slow. It's a lot to try and explain really. Wish I'd have had saved some of the matches so they might be shareable, but my replays are filled up. When are they going to update the replays on Wii U anyways?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't have real counterpick secondaries.

Me neither. My secondaries are DDD, Charizard, and Bowser, who are less than ideal for covering Ganon's weaknesses.

 

[jahkzheng]

Me neither. My secondaries are DDD, Charizard, and Bowser, who are less than ideal for covering Ganon's weaknesses.

Yeah, that's even less diverse than my list. Going all heavies.

Falcon is arguably my "highest tier" secondary, but he's not the best secondary for covering Ganon's weakness since he suffers from a lot of the same things. He's just too fun though. I try not to use him too much however because I feel people see enough Falcon's online.

Samus plays really different from those two and covers some of their weaknesses. Just wish Samus had a better midrange game. It's basically zair and maybe dtilt for her. On slower characters or read approaches, missiles can work to create hitboxes at midrange, but its usually not a safe option to initiate on a fast enough character close enough to reach you. Fsmash is sadly really short. Her aerials are nice but their pretty low priority. Better to bait or combo/string into them then to just throw them out or lead with them, especially because of her floatiness. Dash attack or downthrow into fair is a fun combo/string that can give you space. When you get the beam charged up though, I love how it gets in people's heads. Her utilt is becoming a fav move of mine and has nice hitboxes throughout. In general she's a long range character or a up in your face character. She doesn't do as great at those midranges. It's why her zair is so valuable since it's her main coverer at that range.

And Zelda is.... interesting. She can really own bad players Ganon style, but she doesn't have his ability to turn a game around quickly like him. She doesn't have a good string game and so much of what she has that's dangerous requires precision and is really punishable if missed. She's also probably one of the worst characters in this game on paper. Still really fun to use however.

I miss Wolf. He was my main Brawl secondary. He felt really weird, but right at the same time. He wasn't the strongest character to cover Ganon, but he was very satisfying to use. I really loved his weird aerial momentum. His ftilt and bair were a couple of my fav moves. DACUS was really fun too. I miss that tech in general. His recovery was a bit dangerous but that high risk thing suited me, or at least it fed my old persona of being someone who could SD at any moment, lol.

I'd love it if Mewtwo felt really fun to play and I could pick him up for a secondary maybe.

 

[Ekans647]

Yeah, that's even less diverse than my list. Going all heavies.

Falcon is arguably my "highest tier" secondary, but he's not the best secondary for covering Ganon's weakness since he suffers from a lot of the same things. He's just too fun though. I try not to use him too much however because I feel people see enough Falcon's online.

Samus plays really different from those two and covers some of their weaknesses. Just wish Samus had a better midrange game. It's basically zair and maybe dtilt for her. On slower characters or read approaches, missiles can work to create hitboxes at midrange, but its usually not a safe option to initiate on a fast enough character close enough to reach you. Fsmash is sadly really short. Her aerials are nice but their pretty low priority. Better to bait or combo/string into them then to just throw them out or lead with them, especially because of her floatiness. Dash attack or downthrow into fair is a fun combo/string that can give you space. When you get the beam charged up though, I love how it gets in people's heads. Her utilt is becoming a fav move of mine and has nice hitboxes throughout. In general she's a long range character or a up in your face character. She doesn't do as great at those midranges. It's why her zair is so valuable since it's her main coverer at that range.

And Zelda is.... interesting. She can really own bad players Ganon style, but she doesn't have his ability to turn a game around quickly like him. She doesn't have a good string game and so much of what she has that's dangerous requires precision and is really punishable if missed. She's also probably one of the worst characters in this game on paper. Still really fun to use however.

I miss Wolf. He was my main Brawl secondary. He felt really weird, but right at the same time. He wasn't the strongest character to cover Ganon, but he was very satisfying to use. I really loved his weird aerial momentum. His ftilt and bair were a couple of my fav moves. DACUS was really fun too. I miss that tech in general. His recovery was a bit dangerous but that high risk thing suited me, or at least it fed my old persona of being someone who could SD at any moment, lol.

I'd love it if Mewtwo felt really fun to play and I could pick him up for a secondary maybe.

I can't wait for Mewtwo DLC. If he plays well, I'll probably main him.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ A2ZOMG

I think you should go ahead and start the Ganon tier list. The tournament is about to end, and we're quite into the game development now. It'll be fun.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think it'll be fun, too. But I want to say that it should be approached tactfully, and by tactfully, I mean in such a way that doesn't result in kvetching about who's where. In other words, saying someone's simply better without back-up leaves room for argument. Results don't. Of course though, I think it's good to consider both in concert, since both considerations have unique holes in their evaluative power.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have the topic semi-ready right now, but I can't easily make decisions about placings outside of the top 6. In fact, I'm probably going to need help from other people to really keep track of a pretty large number of players.

 

[Blobface]

Hilariously off-topic, but isn't it funny how Ganondorf has a lot of strengths that Ganon usually hates to deal with with other characters? He combos well, can kill you just as easily as you kill him, and has amazing edgeguarding.

Ganondorf vs Ganondorf: 0:100 confirmed

Edited because I forgot a question mark.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hilariously off-topic, but isn't it funny how Ganondorf has a lot of strengths that Ganon usually hates to deal with with other characters. He combos well, can kill you just as easily as you kill him, and has amazing edgeguarding.

Ganondorf vs Ganondorf: 0:100 confirmed

Pretty much. In a custom setting, Ganon ditto is actually one of few niche matchups where you want to take Wizard's Drop Kick due to how devastatingly powerful his edgeguards on himself are. And when they do take WDK, putting your opponent offstage with D-smash is even more important to prevent them from abusing it to recover.

 

[jahkzheng]

@ Vermanubis

Just want to say, lately when I see you on the board, something bothers me....

That Belmont's back looks like it could be his front. I'm pretty sure it's his back still because of the hand and the collar, but still... my eyes are confused at first and even second glance. Man, if he can trick me this way, just imagine him as a Smash character. Think you've got him from behind for a free attack or something when suddenly he grabs you. Mind games I tell you.

 

[Vermanubis]

@ Vermanubis

Just want to say, lately when I see you on the board, something bothers me....

That Belmont's back looks like it could be his front. I'm pretty sure it's his back still because of the hand and the collar, but still... my eyes are confused at first and even second glance. Man, if he can trick me this way, just imagine him as a Smash character. Think you've got him from behind for a free attack or something when suddenly he grabs you. Mind games I tell you.

Haha! A friend of mine said the same thing on Facebook. I couldn't see it at first, but a few days ago I randomly saw it, couldn't unsee it, now I can't see it again.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm seriously considering bumping 'Dorf up into my Top 5, or at least making him a proper sub. He doesn't really cover any matchups that my other characters don't, but he feels so satisfying to play as; I am utterly impelled to play him, and irrespective of the context of the game, I can't help but have a hell of a time commanding the Dark Lord himself.

My question for you fine folk is: is it worth the time and effort to develop my 'Dorf, or would it be best to just keep him as a "for funsies" fighter? Does he have any particular strengths to fill in what niches are not fulfilled by other characters?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm seriously considering bumping 'Dorf up into my Top 5, or at least making him a proper sub. He doesn't really cover any matchups that my other characters don't, but he feels so satisfying to play as; I am utterly impelled to play him, and irrespective of the context of the game, I can't help but have a hell of a time commanding the Dark Lord himself.

My question for you fine folk is: is it worth the time and effort to develop my 'Dorf, or would it be best to just keep him as a "for funsies" fighter? Does he have any particular strengths to fill in what niches are not fulfilled by other characters?

Ganondorf competitively has favorable matchups against Wario, Metaknight, Mario, Doc, WFT, Link, Toon Link, Little Mac, and Kirby. Though Ganon's matchup dynamics are very different from most characters in that the threat of outplaying someone and getting outplayed as Ganon is really massive. He's a character that can win or lose extremely decisively.

Generally speaking, you always have to play smart in every matchup as Ganon. One nice thing about Ganon is at a certain point, you worry less about learning Ganon as you do learning other characters to approach matchups. In that sense, he's not super mechanically intensive to pick up.

Ganon is also a very strong character in teams especially in custom settings.

 

[Ekans647]

I actually haven't been playing a lot of Ganon recently. I've been focusing on playing Marth (he's super fun to play as) and other characters to cover my weaknesses. Right now, if I have to rank my top 5 characters, I'd say:

1.) Ike
2.) Marth
3.) Sheik
4.) Greninja
5.) Ganondorf

It's a shame to because I'd like to play more Ganondorf, but I just don't have a lot of fun playing as him. I'm thinking of picking up another character to cover Ganondorf's weaknesses, but I can't think of a character I'd like to play and be able to cover Ganondorf's weaknesses.

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf competitively has favorable matchups against Wario, Metaknight, Mario, Doc, WFT, Link, Toon Link, Little Mac, and Kirby. Though Ganon's matchup dynamics are very different from most characters in that the threat of outplaying someone and getting outplayed as Ganon is really massive. He's a character that can win or lose extremely decisively.

Generally speaking, you always have to play smart in every matchup as Ganon. One nice thing about Ganon is at a certain point, you worry less about learning Ganon as you do learning other characters to approach matchups. In that sense, he's not super mechanically intensive to pick up.

Ganon is also a very strong character in teams especially in custom settings.

What do you think about the Olimar matchup? i think Dorf might have an advantage against him (With customs he has a big advantage due to dark fists off a choke).

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do you think about the Olimar matchup? i think Dorf might have an advantage against him (With customs he has a big advantage due to dark fists off a choke).

I actually think the matchup is even. You have to keep in mind there aren't a lot of good Olimar players right now.

Offensively our reward on him is massive on virtually every hit. However, Ganon can't easily remove Pikmin that get attached to his head (do not let him throw a white at your head, this HURTS), and Olimar is still able to shieldgrab a lot of Ganon's stuff (you can Wizkick over his grab though, thankfully), so our approach is fundamentally always a risky guess of some sort. Unlike Link, he actually gets good grab reward, so his damage racking has to be respected, and his Smashes are still both pretty fast and strong. Also his edgeguarding is pretty good given he can go fairly deep, not unlike Duck Hunt, though at the same time we can often kill him if he misses a deep edgeguard or recovers low.

Overall even though we can end his stock extremely fast when we get in, Olimar fundamentally does force Ganon to make risky guesses quite a bit.

 

[Wintropy]

I fought an Alph player recently that was pretty good. He bodied me on the first stock, but I managed to two-stock him thanks to rage and some deft footwork.

I think Olimar's biggest weaknesses are that he's light as dust and needs to build up damage before getting a clean KO. That means he has to deal with Ganondorf in rage, a single hit from whom has a high chance of KOing him instantly. It seems to just be a matter of keeping an eye on his Pikmin formations and reading your way through his defenses. It just takes a couple of solid hits to beat him otherwise. :3

 

[Octagon]

My friends and i were playing online free for all on the 3ds and i'm the best out of my friends when it comes to 1v1 but free for all is definitely not my strong suit. I was playing as Yoshi and i was doing terrible, getting last every single time. I thought i was having an off day so then i was playing random...and then i found him. Ganondorf led me to victory the rest of the night. I was smashing and Warlock Punching my friends to k.o. and it was beautiful. By the end, i named Ganondorf one of my secondaries with Diddy Kong. This character is a monster and definitely is worth picking up

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I actually think the matchup is even. You have to keep in mind there aren't a lot of good Olimar players right now.

Offensively our reward on him is massive on virtually every hit. However, Ganon can't easily remove Pikmin that get attached to his head (do not let him throw a white at your head, this HURTS), and Olimar is still able to shieldgrab a lot of Ganon's stuff (you can Wizkick over his grab though, thankfully), so our approach is fundamentally always a risky guess of some sort. Unlike Link, he actually gets good grab reward, so his damage racking has to be respected, and his Smashes are still both pretty fast and strong. Also his edgeguarding is pretty good given he can go fairly deep, not unlike Duck Hunt, though at the same time we can often kill him if he misses a deep edgeguard or recovers low.

Overall even though we can end his stock extremely fast when we get in, Olimar fundamentally does force Ganon to make risky guesses quite a bit.

I'd like to add, in custom settings, Olimar is also a match up where I would choose Wizards Drop Kick over Wizards Foot.

It's easy to see why, the aerial leverage WDK gives you on the ground is very helpful against a wide variety of Olimar's moves, and it helps close the gap much better than WF.

Not to mention that Olimar would play much less campy against a Ganon with WDK than WF.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like to add, in custom settings, Olimar is also a match up where I would choose Wizards Drop Kick over Wizards Foot.

It's easy to see why, the aerial leverage WDK gives you on the ground is very helpful against a wide variety of Olimar's moves, and it helps close the gap much better than WF.

Not to mention that Olimar would play much less campy against a Ganon with WDK than WF.

I'm not yet completely sure how Ganon interacts with custom Pikmin toss that turns all the tosses into ones with knockback like Purples. Not to mention Order Tackle which causes Pikmin to deal knockback as they return to Olimar.

But I guess since WDK is able to be a potentially better threat at long range than default to dissuade camping especially if you collide with projectiles, I might agree.

 

[Ekans647]

After not playing for a while, I decided to play Ganondorf again. I had so much fun playing Ganondorf. The pressure I put on my opponent was insane and I just loved his strength. What are some good secondaries to cover his weaknesses?

 

[Vermanubis]

After not playing for a while, I decided to play Ganondorf again. I had so much fun playing Ganondorf. The pressure I put on my opponent was insane and I just loved his strength. What are some good secondaries to cover his weaknesses?

I find that Ganon is an exceptional secondary to cover his nonexistent weaknesses.

 

[Ekans647]

I find that Ganon is an exceptional secondary to cover his nonexistent weaknesses.

Try. I don't why I didn't realize that before. I'll have to work on my Ganondorf to cover my Ganondorf.

 

[Vermanubis]

Try. I don't why I didn't realize that before. I'll have to work on my Ganondorf to cover my Ganondorf.

I dunno why, but something about the way you said this made me laugh.

In all seriousness though, anyone who can go against Rosa, Villager, ZSS and Sheik's a good fit. Though I'd be remiss to say Ganon has many MUs noticeably in his favor, the few who hard counter him are, well... few.

 

[Ekans647]

I dunno why, but something about the way you said this made me laugh.

In all seriousness though, anyone who can go against Rosa, Villager, ZSS and Sheik's a good fit. Though I'd be remiss to say Ganon has many MUs noticeably in his favor, the few who hard counter him are, well... few.

Thanks. I do what I can.

I'm thinking Sheik would be good partner. I already main her, along with Ike, so I feel my weaknesses are covered. I am however thinking of using a zoning character, but I can't seem to get the hang of any of them. Snake spoiled me in Brawl.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Personally the Ganon ditto is a matchup I can't seem to play well. It's a matchup I prefer to play as Dedede, along with the Falcon and Sheik MUs, though I do just fine against D3 as Ganon myself. I tend in general to struggle with MUs where my opponent can punish me as hard as I can against them.

 

[adom4]

Personally the Ganon ditto is a matchup I can't seem to play well. It's a matchup I prefer to play as Dedede, along with the Falcon and Sheik MUs, though I do just fine against D3 as Ganon myself. I tend in general to struggle with MUs where my opponent can punish me as hard as I can against them.

Can you give me some tips on the DDD match up please?
I find him to be my personal hardest matchup, not just with Dorf.

 

[Opana]

I actually struggle vs. a good ddd as well.

 

[Ekans647]

When DDD uses Gordo Toss, try and hit it back. It'll punish them while also discouraging them from using it further. DD also has lots of lag on his attacks, space yourself carefully and punish after. Wizard's Kick is great at doing this and also pops them into the air for a combo. When DDD pops you in the air, Dair is a great counter. Also DDD has terrible air speed, so edge guarding is critical here. The most important this is to respect his range and bait DDD.

 

[HeavyLobster]

When DDD uses Gordo Toss, try and hit it back. It'll punish them while also discouraging them from using it further. DD also has lots of lag on his attacks, space yourself carefully and punish after. Wizard's Kick is great at doing this and also pops them into the air for a combo. When DDD pops you in the air, Dair is a great counter. Also DDD has terrible air speed, so edge guarding is critical here. The most important this is to respect his range and bait DDD.

Most of this is quite good, but I will say that challenging D3 when you're above him is a terrible idea unless he's committed to something and you can punish the endlag, as his disjoints will beat you out head-to-head. If he jumps at you and throws out a whiffed aerial, you can punish with Wizkick or something, but otherwise try to just drift away and be prepared for attempts to trap your landing with Gordos.

 

[Ekans647]

Most of this is quite good, but I will say that challenging D3 when you're above him is a terrible idea unless he's committed to something and you can punish the endlag, as his disjoints will beat you out head-to-head. If he jumps at you and throws out a whiffed aerial, you can punish with Wizkick or something, but otherwise try to just drift away and be prepared for attempts to trap your landing with Gordos.

True, most characters lose to Adair, as it beats out most options. Against DDD, Wizard's Kick is faster than most of his options. If he gets an aerial before you though, you can't challenge that. If he tries to trap you with a Grodo while in the air, time your aerials to knock them back.

 

[HeavyLobster]

True, most characters lose to Adair, as it beats out most options. Against DDD, Wizard's Kick is faster than most of his options. If he gets an aerial before you though, you can't challenge that. If he tries to trap you with a Grodo while in the air, time your aerials to knock them back.

I believe D3's Uair comes out frame 10, making it faster than both Wizkick and Dair, which both come out frame 16. It also lingers, so you likely won't be beating it out. Also most D3 players will be expecting Wizkick, so either they'll be looking to challenge you with Uair or they'll get out of the way and seek to punish the endlag. Nair is good and does outspeed D3 when Ganon's in the right position for it to work,(not from directly above, more diagonally above) so I'd be looking to use that more than Wizkick as an antijuggle, though it can obviously be beaten out as well and can't be thrown out carelessly.

 

[Ekans647]

I believe D3's Uair comes out frame 10, making it faster than both Wizkick and Dair, which both come out frame 16. It also lingers, so you likely won't be beating it out. Also most D3 players will be expecting Wizkick, so either they'll be looking to challenge you with Uair or they'll get out of the way and seek to punish the endlag. Nair is good and does outspeed D3 when Ganon's in the right position for it to work,(not from directly above, more diagonally above) so I'd be looking to use that more than Wizkick as an antijuggle, though it can obviously be beaten out as well and can't be thrown out carelessly.

Alright. I learned something new today. Regardless, I think the best option is to bait DDD and fore him to come to you. Once you get a combo going, you'll be laughing. I think this MU is equally bad for both characters, since they both hold overwhelming advantages over the other.

 

[jahkzheng]

In my own experience, the hardest part of the Dedede matchup is dealing with Gordo edgeguards. He can short launch it so that it bounces near the ledge for a while and can still drop on your head from a ledge grab if you hang there long enough. Been a while since I've faced a Dedede that really utilized this though. The one time I did though, it was pretty effective on me.

It was hard for me to getup attack or aerial onto stage and time it well enough to hit the gordo back. I usually traded with gordo is these cases unfortunately, and it often didn't get send back to Dedede, but went over him. Hanging there was also bad since gordo could drop on my head. Rolling onto stage was almost always punished with dsmash. Jumping from the ledge and trying to get over the gordo and to Dedede also proved to be difficult. This Dedede would either wait for the gordo to hit be because I didn't jump high enough and punish; start an fsmash so that I'd either have to get behind him or retreat to the edge where the gordo was so I didn't eat the massive move; or he'd let me get deep and utilt. The spacing he used was just enough that from the ledge it was difficult to get behind him. Plus he could roll on reaction if I tried aerial wizkick to cut through to him. I guess it was obvious enough to him when I decided to try this tactic since I rarely caught him trying the fsmash thing when I'd decided that would be my approach. I think it's because I had to get deep enough to make it useful and once I was deep enough he'd change his tactics to utilt or roll back and punish.

I found that at low percents one of my better options was to roll onto stage and eat the dsmash because it at least knocked me to stage center where I could regain control. At higher percents, there wasn't a good option for me, but I figure if I could time the ledge attack or aerial, my best bet would've been to knock the gordo back into him. WDK I bet would nearly eliminate this edgeguarding problem against Dedede, but this was For Glory.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not sure whether Wizkick or Dropkick is better for Dedede. Dropkick lets you bypass a decent amount of his edgeguarding shenanigans and is better against D3's juggles since Wizkick isn't getting through his Uair anyway, but Wizkick is probably Ganon's most reliable punish vs D3's spacing, and the extra couple of startup frames on Dropkick do hurt its utility for this purpose. I've hardly played any Dedede's in a customs environment, which would help me figure this out a bit more.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DDD I think is even, but not fun to play if they're good. You have to play it really conservatively, and some of your preferred punishes don't work as well as you'd like due to his multiple midair jumps and his high weight.

Aerials are good against the Gordo. If he does a short toss, don't contest it directly unless you're already in position to whiff punish him, but usually just make sure you have enough space to back up and wait for him to step out of its range before moving back in. When recovering, keep your N-air and U-air handy for hitting back Gordo edgeguards and edge traps. As long as you space correctly against the Gordo, DDD's options to pressure are pretty limited, and your Flame Choke techchase game and spaced aerials are all things he has to respect.

If there is one matchup where default Up-B may actually be the best option, DDD imo is a very good matchup to use default Up-B in. Due to his low air speed, the grab can often easily catch him offstage. This can for instance grab him out of his armored Up-B which is quite useful for putting pressure on him, and in ledge trap situations the grab can be more reliable for limiting some of his pressure options as well.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Going to a custom-allowed tournament next week. It features a 3v3 instead of a 2v2.

 

[NidoMay]

If there is one matchup where default Up-B may actually be the best option, DDD imo is a very good matchup to use default Up-B in. Due to his low air speed, the grab can often easily catch him offstage. This can for instance grab him out of his armored Up-B which is quite useful for putting pressure on him, and in ledge trap situations the grab can be more reliable for limiting some of his pressure options as well.

Well that and when timed right, DDD's upB is nice and stompable... It seems most of Gannny's matchups make heavy use of exploiting recoveries. Got those that have UpBs that can't hit directly above while rising (abandon ship, elwind) that Ganon can just meteor at practically any % and others like Charizard and Dr Mario that have poor recoveries that you can just cheese with a good sparta kick thanks to that that lovely horizontal launch...