Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Ffamran]

I don't know which video thread to put this in... Anyway, was this posted before? Bizzarro Flame's Ganondorf in SSB4. Absolutely awesome.

 

[jahkzheng]

I don't know which video thread to this in... Anyway, was this posted before? Bizzarro Flame's Ganondorf in SSB4. Absolutely awesome.

Yeah, it was shared in our video and matchmaking thread.

Pretty fun to see Bizarro take Smash 4 Ganon for a whirl and play him with such confidence, heh.

 

[Opana]

I don't know which video thread to this in... Anyway, was this posted before? Bizzarro Flame's Ganondorf in SSB4. Absolutely awesome.

Seems like he's trying to play Melee Ganon still; I mean I don't feel like there's anything too notable here tbh. No saying he isn't skilled btw, we all know he is.

 

[Vermanubis]

Seems like he's trying to play Melee Ganon still; I mean I don't feel like there's anything too notable here tbh. No saying he isn't skilled btw, we all know he is.

Took the words from me. Definitely no pushover, but if we were to remove his name and replace it with "anonymous," I have a feeling it would feel a lot less remarkable.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I mean, Bizzaro's Ganon is really exciting, but those matches were just about even because he gave back a lot of hits by playing so recklessly. Optimal Ganon play in Smash 4 sadly requires you to be a lot more conservative with onstage stomp.

 

[Ffamran]

Watching Ganondorf in general for me is just hilarious unless it's a Flame Choke/Wizard's Foot, "I have no idea what I'm doing, so I'm going to spam moves and hope they land" player. I mean, just one attack from Ganondorf sends people flying. How is that not hilarious? It's pretty much the reason that I play Ganondorf. Nothing else matters when you can boot people off the ledge and grin like an idiot.

I amuse myself too easily, don't I?

 

[jahkzheng]

Took the words from me. Definitely no pushover, but if we were to remove his name and replace it with "anonymous," I have a feeling it would feel a lot less remarkable.

That's how I felt too. He still read the opponent well, but other than that he seemed almost to be goofing off. Just throwing out punches is not something you do in Melee or any Smash game with Ganon. I understand him not knowing a lot of tech or move options, but the punches really showed he didn't care he didn't know them I think. Somehow this still worked fairly well for him. The stupid gameplan may have had the Pac-Man confused and allowed Bizarro to get by relatively unpunished. He also made the most of his reads in an unconventional manner. It was a veil of stupidity covering something you could sense was scary.

Basically, if this was some random anonymous Ganon, I'd still be intrigued by his unpredictably good understanding of playing the player in contrast with his risky, stupid, and uncoventional playing of his character. I may still have determined the player was goofing off and not as bad as he seemed. Hard to say. When you see punches getting thrown out the often though, it's hard not to think a player is goofing off.

If only such a ridiculous approach to Ganon could be viable. Would be hilariously appropriate from the character that gives you this feeling he's not really even trying. *Looks at sword*

 

[Ffamran]

That's how I felt too. He still read the opponent well, but other than that he seemed almost to be goofing off. Just throwing out punches is not something you do in Melee or any Smash game with Ganon. I understand him not knowing a lot of tech or move options, but the punches really showed he didn't care he didn't know them I think. Somehow this still worked fairly well for him. The stupid gameplan may have had the Pac-Man confused and allowed Bizarro to get by relatively unpunished. He also made the most of his reads in an unconventional manner. It was a veil of stupidity covering something you could sense was scary.

Basically, if this was some random anonymous Ganon, I'd still be intrigued by his unpredictably good understanding of playing the player in contrast with his risky, stupid, and uncoventional playing of his character. I may still have determined the player was goofing off and not as bad as he seemed. Hard to say. When you see punches getting thrown out the often though, it's hard not to think a player is goofing off.

If only such a ridiculous approach to Ganon could be viable. Would be hilariously appropriate from the character that gives you this feeling he's not really even trying. *Looks at sword*

This on TV Tropes is called Obfuscating Stupidity. Welcome to TV Tropes, it'll ruin your life.

Seriously, if you don't have time on hand and by that I mean like 24 hours to not do anything and have nothing that may suddenly happen in the next 24 hours, don't click those links.

Anyway to summarize, it's basically what you said: where a person seems dumb, off, clumsy, or goofy, but is actually hiding their true power and skills. It's less of a lethal joke character and more of I'm making you think I can't do jack, but I will wreck you if you screw up which you will. Since I get bored sometimes, I think of actually pretending to have lag and doing weird things like attacking way after a person was there and just out right confusing them. I mean, how would you react if a player was comboing thin air and constantly going to places where you're not to kill something that's not there? I've never done that, but I have done weird things like run around and letting myself get beat up before laying a smack down.

In a way, this reminds me of Borp who just plays so fundamentally and simply that people get caught off guard because they're so used to all those techs, but now, they're fighting someone who's fighting bare bones and succeeding.

 

[jahkzheng]

This on TV Tropes is called Obfuscating Stupidity. Welcome to TV Tropes, it'll ruin your life.

Seriously, if you don't have time on hand and by that I mean like 24 hours to not do anything and have nothing that may suddenly happen in the next 24 hours, don't click those links.

Anyway to summarize, it's basically what you said: where a person seems dumb, off, clumsy, or goofy, but is actually hiding their true power and skills. It's less of a lethal joke character and more of I'm making you think I can't do jack, but I will wreck you if you screw up which you will. Since I get bored sometimes, I think of actually pretending to have lag and doing weird things like attacking way after a person was there and just out right confusing them. I mean, how would you react if a player was comboing thin air and constantly going to places where you're not to kill something that's not there? I've never done that, but I have done weird things like run around and letting myself get beat up before laying a smack down.

In a way, this reminds me of Borp who just plays so fundamentally and simply that people get caught off guard because they're so used to all those techs, but now, they're fighting someone who's fighting bare bones and succeeding.

I'm familiar with the site. I've been linked many times before. I don't go there willfully though.

That particular trope.... I do that "irl" just for fun mostly and not because it gains me anything... except perhaps saving me from having to pick sides in an argument. "I have no opinion because I have no idea! Sorry. Can't help".

I'd love it if I could play Smash in such a way without just plain losing all the time probably. Maybe if I had Bizarro's experience and technical skill, I could get away with it. Be a sort of "Drunken Master" of Ganon, lol. Instead, I must temper my natural desire to do stupid things so I end up with a Ganon that has some discipline but can still go for stupid stuff at a moments notice. It's especially evident with my edgeguarding and string chasing. Just let me SD trying to get you and you'll probably win. Doesn't help that I'm hardly ever exactly in control of what I'm doing due to a lack of real technical skill. Combine these things and you get why I was once notorious on fsmash.org for my SDing in all manner of ways. I'd say I'm better about it in Smash 4 but old habits die hard.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Beast Ganon confirmed playable in Hyrule Warriors. http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...ing_fresh_mayhem_in_final_season_pass_arrival
Now the real terror begins.

 

[the king of murder]

Beast Ganon confirmed playable in Hyrule Warriors. http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...ing_fresh_mayhem_in_final_season_pass_arrival
Now the real terror begins.

The future is going to be be dark again but this time the destruction will be beyond of our imagination as Ganon rampages through everything.

 

[Jiom]

Don't know if anyone has seen this already, it's pretty good entertainment and involves a few techs that you might not know of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0gY8qvvGKQ

 

[jahkzheng]

Don't know if anyone has seen this already, it's pretty good entertainment and involves a few techs that you might not know of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0gY8qvvGKQ

@ 3:43

I think I saw Gungnir, heh.

I miss some of the old techs from Brawl, but for the most part Ganon looks a lot better. And there's plenty of room for more discoveries I hope.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ 3:43

I think I saw Gungnir, heh.

I miss some of the old techs from Brawl, but for the most part Ganon looks a lot better. And there's plenty of room for more discoveries I hope.

I'm not 100% certain Gungnir was in that specific video, but I am pretty sure he has contributed to Super Ganon Time. And we didn't even know about him back then, and the best Ganon from Japan back in Brawl went by the name of DIO.

 

[Ekans647]

I'm not 100% certain Gungnir was in that specific video, but I am pretty sure he has contributed to Super Ganon Time. And we didn't even know about him back then, and the best Ganon from Japan back in Brawl went by the name of DIO.

Is that a reference to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure? If so that is perfect.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'm not 100% certain Gungnir was in that specific video, but I am pretty sure he has contributed to Super Ganon Time. And we didn't even know about him back then, and the best Ganon from Japan back in Brawl went by the name of DIO.

I was joking about how familiar that tech was to what Gungnir has been doing a lot of lately. Would be funny if it really was him, but I didn't actually think it was.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is that a reference to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure? If so that is perfect.

Wouldn't be surprised, given how useless it is to oppose Ganondorf.

 

[_Magus_]

Brothers, unfortunately I'll be taking a hiatus from you for awhile.

There's this thing called Lent that starts tomorrow, and as a discipline I'm not going to be on the Internet for the duration of it. That's about six weeks. I'll be back around Easter. Stay awesome, guys :D

 

[Ekans647]

Brothers, unfortunately I'll be taking a hiatus from you for awhile.

There's this thing called Lent that starts tomorrow, and as a discipline I'm not going to be on the Internet for the duration of it. That's about six weeks. I'll be back around Easter. Stay awesome, guys :D

Holy crap. No internet for 6 weeks. That's tough. For Lent, rather than giving something up, I try and improve in area of my life. I try to add something to my life. Good luck, brother.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Brothers, unfortunately I'll be taking a hiatus from you for awhile.

There's this thing called Lent that starts tomorrow, and as a discipline I'm not going to be on the Internet for the duration of it. That's about six weeks. I'll be back around Easter. Stay awesome, guys :D

You're shooting higher than I am. I'm just giving up sweets. I've actually found that Smash has helped me focus more recently, as knowing that I get to play my buddies online in the evenings has helped me focus on getting as much done as possible during the day so there won't be any interruptions.

 

[the king of murder]

Brothers, unfortunately I'll be taking a hiatus from you for awhile.

There's this thing called Lent that starts tomorrow, and as a discipline I'm not going to be on the Internet for the duration of it. That's about six weeks. I'll be back around Easter. Stay awesome, guys :D

Even if you won't be seeing it, I wish you good luck.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Any Ganons up for some friendlies? I need to sharpen up my game big-time.

@ A2ZOMG @Ray_Kalm @ Vermanubis

I'm around most of the day, east coast US.

Edit: WiiU... I forget if some of you are stuck on 3DS for now.

 

[adom4]

Any Ganons up for some friendlies? I need to sharpen up my game big-time.

@ A2ZOMG @Ray_Kalm @ Vermanubis

I'm around most of the day, east coast US.

Edit: WiiU... I forget if some of you are stuck on 3DS for now.

I'm available for some matches around 2 hours from now if you're interested.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yeah sure man, as long as the connection is doable.

 

[Vermanubis]

Any Ganons up for some friendlies? I need to sharpen up my game big-time.

@ A2ZOMG @Ray_Kalm @ Vermanubis

I'm around most of the day, east coast US.

Edit: WiiU... I forget if some of you are stuck on 3DS for now.

I absolutely would, but...

My 3DS is out of commission. So I'm Smash-less for a while.

 

[Jiom]

I found something very interesting and it appears ganondorf can spotdodge or forward roll while falling off certain ledges or slopes, all while retaining the same amount of invincibility frames, or so it seems.


I have no idea where else it works other than in this highlighted space. http://imgur.com/6hVGVxr

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Actually Ganon can stay on the ground on that slope. You can run up and down it iirc.

 

[toadster101]

Beast Ganon confirmed playable in Hyrule Warriors. http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...ing_fresh_mayhem_in_final_season_pass_arrival
Now the real terror begins.

Why does it feel like Tecmo Koei respects these characters more than Nintendo themselves? Ganondorf and Tingle are amazing.

 

[Blobface]

Greetings, fellow lords of darkness!
I've been playing Ganondorf since Brawl, and had been lurking around this forum for a while, so I figured I'd make an account and make my place in the quest for power official.
I'm excited to ditto all of you!

 

[Ussi]

I started using Ganondorf (atm in a phase where I'm just trying a bunch of characters too see who fits). I am really enjoying Ganondorf. Each hit feels really satisfying and the reads and pay off are just to my style.

 

[the king of murder]

When people ask you which name you prefer:

 

[Ekans647]

When people ask you which name you prefer:

This is brilliant. Where'd you find it?

 

[the king of murder]

This is brilliant. Where'd you find it?

I found it somewhere in Google pictures. It linked me to that site http://cheezburger.com/8201931776.

Also, holy **** Gungnir shows us the power of footstool->reverse U-air yet again:

http://gfycat.com/PartialEvergreenFulmar
http://gfycat.com/DistantFlickeringBluejay
http://gfycat.com/TenseEcstaticHorse

 

[HeavyLobster]

I found it somewhere in Google pictures. It linked me to that site http://cheezburger.com/8201931776.

Also, holy **** Gungnir shows us the power of footstool->reverse U-air yet again:

http://gfycat.com/PartialEvergreenFulmar
http://gfycat.com/DistantFlickeringBluejay
http://gfycat.com/TenseEcstaticHorse

Someone needs to fly that man in to EVO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Something random I have noticed is that part of the reason Wizkick and Flame Choke are actually a lot better in this game even though they have the same frame data and mechanics is actually animation tweaks.

Ganondorf leans backwards more when doing Wizkick making the hitbox cover his body better overall. Flame Choke and it's audio cues also start later in the animation making it harder to react to.

 

[the king of murder]

My reaction when I land an U-tilt shield breaker or Ganoncide an opponent who has the clear percent lead but even stocks:

 

[Ekans647]

My reaction when I land an U-tilt shield breaker or Ganoncide an opponent who has the clear percent lead but even stocks:

Sometimes I camp at the edge, baiting an opponent with Flame Choke. With all the noobs on FG, it's hilarious to see this work so often

 

[Claire Diviner]

Something random I have noticed is that part of the reason Wizkick and Flame Choke are actually a lot better in this game even though they have the same frame data and mechanics is actually animation tweaks.

Ganondorf leans backwards more when doing Wizkick making the hitbox cover his body better overall. Flame Choke and it's audio cues also start later in the animation making it harder to react to.

Same thing can be said about his Up B, not necessarily in its animation more so than the hitstun mechanic, making it so he's not guaranteed punished just for landing what would otherwise be a really crappy move.

 

[jahkzheng]

So, I was playing For Glory a couple nights ago with Ganon and ran into that pesky fair boy, "Link". You might want to sit down. I'm going to get all wordy in telling this tale of adversity...

Anyways, yeah, Link really can be the worst. Especially when it's a Link like this one. He was the most predictable Link yet, and I could hardly touch him. We went several battles because I'm a sucker for punishment, but also because I knew that I could beat him with enough effort. His predictable ways would catch up to him eventually. It was surprisingly difficult though. I did manage 5 victories out of our maybe 20 or more matches. The matches got closer for the most part the deeper we went. The last 5 matches I won 2, so that gives you a feeling for how the first half went, heh.

That's the "TL;DR" version.

Want to hear more? Okay, you know I can't help in anyways.

About the fairy boy's predictable gameplay. The thing this Link always did right from the start - as many Links do - was throw his boomerang, charge an arrow right after, and repeat this over and over until or as I approached. When I got close enough he'd mix in bombs. But if I got too close he pretty much always rolled. Sometimes away, sometimes inward to get behind me. A few times he just rolled all the way to the other edge and repeated his first tactic. I started pressuring the roll pretty heavily though so he wouldn't get away. Wizkick did well when he decided to roll in one direction more than once. But then he showed me another trick of his by seemingly always having an attack buffered out of roll if he decided to roll just once. I read him so much only to get hit first. Was one of the more frustrating things. He mostly buffered his smashes, dash attack, jab, or grab. My roll punishes were initially choke, but I learned he wouldn't let that happen, or dash attack even. Dsmash caught him a few times, but I didn't want to use it too much. Possibly could've done better if I'd used it more but it's a pretty punishable attack if it misses and I don't use it much purposefully as a result. I could almost never get close enough to grab him after a roll and I was usually in the process of my last action to really preempt him by enough. A few times I read super early, and got the punish, but I couldn't hit him on reaction. I pretty much had to input my punish the same moment he did what I anticipated, and like I said, my last actions usually kept me from doing this as fast.

My empty jump approaching was tough to make work too because he kept the projectiles flying and when I got close he'd do the same roll thing. Powershield approaching was treated the same way, except he'd pressure with jab or fsmash if I got close enough or just grab, sometimes right after a roll. A lot of times I'd catch him trying to upsmash me after I'd fake an aerial approach, or dsmash or fsmash me after a faked ground approach, so I'd immediately go to flamechoke punish his laggy smash, but the majority of the time he'd roll away in time and buffer in a dash attack or fsmash. I felt really slow I have to say. This Link really was masterful with not letting me punish stuff that was really really seemingly punishable. He seemed to interrupt all his moves with rolls and act immediately out of them. There was a bit of lag, but I still felt I should've been able to sneak punishes in better on this guy, especially because he seemed to be playing in the lag great. Things did improve in later matches though when I started trying out aerial roll punishes - mostly dair and a few of the others. I missed with them fairly often though, sometimes I think because I reacted too quickly and would be throwing out my move while he was still in his roll's invincibility frames.

Last, when I got in on him and started something was when I had moments of hope. As difficult as it was most of time I did get some punishes with choke, and some grabs and dash attack punishes, and later the dair punishes. Fake approach to pivot ftilt was great too and caught many dash attacks of his, but was also often out of range and he'd use my miss to create space or sneak in a grab or attack. He also was very predictable once I got him in the air. He pretty much always went for dair if I was below him. My biggest punishes came when I could fool him into thinking I'd be below him and punish his landing. A remarkable amount of the time though he moved himself in the air well enough that he'd he coming down on me and force me to shield. Sometimes he'd bounce a couple times off my shield, but a lot of the time he'd bounce once and land laglessly beside me with a buffered attack. He seemed to be awfully good at deciding to bounce twice though if I decided I wanted to read punish his landing. Basically, he seemed to be reading my "shield drop to catch him after his dair landing" read by deciding to land on my head again instead. I'd often trade with his dair with my uair in down throw to uair or dash attack to uair strings. Most of my juggling attempts were interrupted with dair so I mostly tried to bait him into thinking I'd approach him in the air so I could punish his landing. He also always went for you his uair if he got me in the air, mostly after a successful usmash. I'd airdodge this and sometimes wizkick, but that turned out to be unsafe, so I'd go for a fastfall to dair to try and catch him right as he landed before he could act. This worked out well a few times.

For the most part though, these battle were fought at a distance with me approaching or at midrange where he had an advantage. The times when I was inside his zone and landing hits accounted for less than 10% of any given battle. Very little of the battles were ever fought offstage. Almost any time I got in on him it was at stage center because of his tendency to camp one edge and roll in when I got close enough. I probably killed him most with uair, ftilt, and fsmash. I managed a couple utilts too. He killed me most with his smashes, dash attack, and some arrow gimps that I'm not sure how I let him land but they were smartly shot.

Cool story, right? Yeah, I guess part of this was to vent about an annoying Link, heh. Still really enjoyed stubbornly going in over and over. Maybe it's not immediately obvious, but I'm hoping the whole "strength through adversity" thing means I got better as a result of going through the ringer enough times.

 

[Ekans647]

So, I was playing For Glory a couple nights ago with Ganon and ran into that pesky fair boy, "Link". You might want to sit down. I'm going to get all wordy in telling this tale of adversity...

Anyways, yeah, Link really can be the worst. Especially when it's a Link like this one. He was the most predictable Link yet, and I could hardly touch him. We went several battles because I'm a sucker for punishment, but also because I knew that I could beat him with enough effort. His predictable ways would catch up to him eventually. It was surprisingly difficult though. I did manage 5 victories out of our maybe 20 or more matches. The matches got closer for the most part the deeper we went. The last 5 matches I won 2, so that gives you a feeling for how the first half went, heh.

That's the "TL;DR" version.

Want to hear more? Okay, you know I can't help in anyways.

About the fairy boy's predictable gameplay. The thing this Link always did right from the start - as many Links do - was throw his boomerang, charge an arrow right after, and repeat this over and over until or as I approached. When I got close enough he'd mix in bombs. But if I got too close he pretty much always rolled. Sometimes away, sometimes inward to get behind me. A few times he just rolled all the way to the other edge and repeated his first tactic. I started pressuring the roll pretty heavily though so he wouldn't get away. Wizkick did well when he decided to roll in one direction more than once. But then he showed me another trick of his by seemingly always having an attack buffered out of roll if he decided to roll just once. I read him so much only to get hit first. Was one of the more frustrating things. He mostly buffered his smashes, dash attack, jab, or grab. My roll punishes were initially choke, but I learned he wouldn't let that happen, or dash attack even. Dsmash caught him a few times, but I didn't want to use it too much. Possibly could've done better if I'd used it more but it's a pretty punishable attack if it misses and I don't use it much purposefully as a result. I could almost never get close enough to grab him after a roll and I was usually in the process of my last action to really preempt him by enough. A few times I read super early, and got the punish, but I couldn't hit him on reaction. I pretty much had to input my punish the same moment he did what I anticipated, and like I said, my last actions usually kept me from doing this as fast.

My empty jump approaching was tough to make work too because he kept the projectiles flying and when I got close he'd do the same roll thing. Powershield approaching was treated the same way, except he'd pressure with jab or fsmash if I got close enough or just grab, sometimes right after a roll. A lot of times I'd catch him trying to upsmash me after I'd fake an aerial approach, or dsmash or fsmash me after a faked ground approach, so I'd immediately go to flamechoke punish his laggy smash, but the majority of the time he'd roll away in time and buffer in a dash attack or fsmash. I felt really slow I have to say. This Link really was masterful with not letting me punish stuff that was really really seemingly punishable. He seemed to interrupt all his moves with rolls and act immediately out of them. There was a bit of lag, but I still felt I should've been able to sneak punishes in better on this guy, especially because he seemed to be playing in the lag great. Things did improve in later matches though when I started trying out aerial roll punishes - mostly dair and a few of the others. I missed with them fairly often though, sometimes I think because I reacted too quickly and would be throwing out my move while he was still in his roll's invincibility frames.

Last, when I got in on him and started something was when I had moments of hope. As difficult as it was most of time I did get some punishes with choke, and some grabs and dash attack punishes, and later the dair punishes. Fake approach to pivot ftilt was great too and caught many dash attacks of his, but was also often out of range and he'd use my miss to create space or sneak in a grab or attack. He also was very predictable once I got him in the air. He pretty much always went for dair if I was below him. My biggest punishes came when I could fool him into thinking I'd be below him and punish his landing. A remarkable amount of the time though he moved himself in the air well enough that he'd he coming down on me and force me to shield. Sometimes he'd bounce a couple times off my shield, but a lot of the time he'd bounce once and land laglessly beside me with a buffered attack. He seemed to be awfully good at deciding to bounce twice though if I decided I wanted to read punish his landing. Basically, he seemed to be reading my "shield drop to catch him after his dair landing" read by deciding to land on my head again instead. I'd often trade with his dair with my uair in down throw to uair or dash attack to uair strings. Most of my juggling attempts were interrupted with dair so I mostly tried to bait him into thinking I'd approach him in the air so I could punish his landing. He also always went for you his uair if he got me in the air, mostly after a successful usmash. I'd airdodge this and sometimes wizkick, but that turned out to be unsafe, so I'd go for a fastfall to dair to try and catch him right as he landed before he could act. This worked out well a few times.

For the most part though, these battle were fought at a distance with me approaching or at midrange where he had an advantage. The times when I was inside his zone and landing hits accounted for less than 10% of any given battle. Very little of the battles were ever fought offstage. Almost any time I got in on him it was at stage center because of his tendency to camp one edge and roll in when I got close enough. I probably killed him most with uair, ftilt, and fsmash. I managed a couple utilts too. He killed me most with his smashes, dash attack, and some arrow gimps that I'm not sure how I let him land but they were smartly shot.

Cool story, right? Yeah, I guess part of this was to vent about an annoying Link, heh. Still really enjoyed stubbornly going in over and over. Maybe it's not immediately obvious, but I'm hoping the whole "strength through adversity" thing means I got better as a result of going through the ringer enough times.

My lord. Story of my life on FG. I have Sheik and Greninja as mot others mains to beat out zoners like this.