Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[Grey Belnades]

Can't we just let the poor guy have his moment?

 

[Shogger]

The key to Ganondorf is seriously making your opponent afraid of you. Ganondorf's ability to control his opponent depends on them understanding that they have to respect your attacks, which depends on YOU conditioning your opponent and knowing their habits.

That's really eerie. My 2 years of Brawling with my college roommate went exactly like that. I learned Ganondorf, and then it became this months long mental arms race with him. He started out carelessly trying to rush me down. When it didn't work, he got confused and frustrated. And then eventually the fear set in. He wouldn't do anything unsafe. He'd just turtle. And when I'd beat him because he got predictable, he had no idea what to do.

God I love playing Ganondorf.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's really eerie. My 2 years of Brawling with my college roommate went exactly like that. I learned Ganondorf, and then it became this months long mental arms race with him. He started out carelessly trying to rush me down. When it didn't work, he got confused and frustrated. And then eventually the fear set in. He wouldn't do anything unsafe. He'd just turtle. And when I'd beat him because he got predictable, he had no idea what to do.

God I love playing Ganondorf.

Unrelated but since you are in LA, we should consider meeting to make Warlock Punches collide on the Wii-U. I'm like what, only 30 minutes away from downtown?

 

[Xinc]

I've been trying a new combo and aggro styled Ganon and it's worked with mixed success. People seem to be perplexed on for Glory, but a Ganon who's always in your face applying pressure is pretty deadly.

 

[Grey Belnades]

I played a number of Ganon dittos against a Japanese player. It was fun but intense at the same time.

 

[Vermanubis]

I feel a lot of things that Mike Tyson's said are relevant to us.

"My main objective is to be professional, but also to kill him"

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

"I just want to conquer people and their souls."

@ Grey: For sure, dude. I still think the guy deserves credit, 'cause he did super well. It's just that the set definitely didn't play out how I expected it to. =P As for the Japanese Ganon, I hardly ever play non-Japanese players on FG. The volume of good Japanese players is grotesquely disproportionate to Western players.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Japan in general has better knit gaming communities than the United States from what it looks like to me. When they care about a game, they usually discover things faster and they practice with each other more efficiently from what it looks like.

 

[Naroghin]

There also seems to be a healthier general conception of "community" and player success is therefore more often responded to with respect and admiration.

 

[Grey Belnades]

While on the subject of Japanese players, can anyone help me figure out who this person is? I don't know if he played Ganon before or if I'converted him after showing him da powah but we played a good number of Ganon dittos but I had to break it off to make it to class. I'd like to find him/her and let him/her know I had a blast playing.

@ Grey: For sure, dude. I still think the guy deserves credit, 'cause he did super well. It's just that the set definitely didn't play out how I expected it to. =P As for the Japanese Ganon, I hardly ever play non-Japanese players on FG. The volume of good Japanese players is grotesquely disproportionate to Western players.

I understand about the set not playing out like you had expected. There is an expectation when gameplay and M2K are involved. That's sad but true.

 

[Vermanubis]

While on the subject of Japanese players, can anyone help me figure out who this person is? I don't know if he played Ganon before or if I'converted him after showing him da powah but we played a good number of Ganon dittos but I had to break it off to make it to class. I'd like to find him/her and let him/her know I had a blast playing.

View attachment 29096



I understand about the set not playing out like you had expected. There is an expectation when gameplay and M2K are involved. That's sad but true.

His name translates into "Tonchan," but I have no idea who he is. I've got a handful of Japanese players I'm dying to find, myself.

 

[Heartstring]

So, I've just realised that my current hair situation looks very similar to Ganon's hairstyle. beard and all.

when I have free time, I will style it appropriately and take photos

 

[Lozjam]

While on the subject of Japanese players, can anyone help me figure out who this person is? I don't know if he played Ganon before or if I'converted him after showing him da powah but we played a good number of Ganon dittos but I had to break it off to make it to class. I'd like to find him/her and let him/her know I had a blast playing.

View attachment 29096



I understand about the set not playing out like you had expected. There is an expectation when gameplay and M2K are involved. That's sad but true.

I've actually played with him before in FG, again Ganondorf dittos. I, for the most part, won but he does have tricks up his sleeve that caught me off guard. Did he do what he did to me and bair'd into aerial flame choke?

 

[Xinc]

I've actually played with him before in FG, again Ganondorf dittos. I, for the most part, won but he does have tricks up his sleeve that caught me off guard. Did he do what he did to me and bair'd into aerial flame choke?

It's possible but a risky manuever. I would imagine it working at low to mid percents.

I've gotten pretty good at reading people in For Glory. Managed several chain combos on characters that dtilt doesn't work on. It's beyond funny.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just played a ton of games with Holy (Ally's brother) on for Glory. I wasn't able to beat his Rob or Metaknight with Ganondorf in Brawl, but here in Smash 4 I won majority (he used Metaknight, Rob and Sheik). Even though higher skilled players can tech side B, there will be moments where they will be caught by surprise.

Against Metaknight, always good to stay on the ground and figure out what he's doing. Play on stages which are smaller, and never go off stage with him unless you're certain you'll hit. Try taking over the edge once he's off stage for an early bair kill. His damage input is pretty low, so even if he gets you hit after hit, you'll make up for it in a few blows.

Sheik is similar to Metaknight. She can get a string of hits on with fairs, needles, down + b, but in the end it's how long well you can avoid her and get your own hits on get a KO. She can do all sorts of stuff off stage, but she'll have trouble killing on stage.

Rob was a little troublesome, but I didn't find him too hard. Ganon has much more priority this game, so most of my moves traded with him. Down throw works wonders on Rob at ALL percentages, during high percentages it's perfect to bait him out and go for a fair kill.

//Edit

Here's Pautena's guidance on Diddy Kong, and Ganondorf. Ganon's starts at around 40 seconds in.

Huge mistake on the Ganon part! 'There are many different Ganons, just like there are many Links and Zeldas'. If I recall correctly, there's only one Ganon throughout the entire series, no?

 

[Opana]

Anyone else going to KTAR?

 

[Xinc]

Anyone else going to KTAR?

I wish I could, but I'd have to take the AMtRACK from Boston and that's not fun. Asking for 4 hours of nausea.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Here's Pautena's guidance on Diddy Kong, and Ganondorf. Ganon's starts at around 40 seconds in.

Huge mistake on the Ganon part! 'There are many different Ganons, just like there are many Links and Zeldas'. If I recall correctly, there's only one Ganon throughout the entire series, no?

There are technically three Ganondorfs due to the whole timeline shift from OoT. But yeah, they originate from the same person.

I believe Ganondorf may have the advantage against ROB honestly. If you don't let him hit you with lasers and Gyro, the risk/reward in neutral is overall better for Ganondorf due to his range and way better damage. Also ROB does not have an easy time KOing Ganondorf because his edgeguard options are not very reliable against low recoveries, while Ganondorf doesn't need to work as hard to KO ROB.

 

[Rizen]

Palutena's naive and weak, unbefitting of a goddess. Fate, yet again, proves a sick sense of humor.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

//Edit

Here's Pautena's guidance on Diddy Kong, and Ganondorf. Ganon's starts at around 40 seconds in.

Huge mistake on the Ganon part! 'There are many different Ganons, just like there are many Links and Zeldas'. If I recall correctly, there's only one Ganon throughout the entire series, no?

How dare does Palutena mock the King of Darkness? This 'Goddess' must pay!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was able to watch Gungnir on stream. First time I ever tried to do anything like that on Nicovideo.

It wasn't quite as flashy as some of the stuff I borrowed from him and put on youtube, but it was still hyyyyype and he won against a Fox. He got in a good reverse U-air edgeguard that led to a D-air spike to seal the last stock.

 

[Opana]

I was able to watch Gungnir on stream. First time I ever tried to do anything like that on Nicovideo.

It wasn't quite as flashy as some of the stuff I borrowed from him and put on youtube, but it was still hyyyyype and he won against a Fox. He got in a good reverse U-air edgeguard that led to a D-air spike to seal the last stock.

I would like to see some more of him, the only video I saw was vs. a black Yoshi and while he did lose he did do good. I just want to see a video where he destroys. You seem to be a fan, so I'm curious which vid of his is your favorite, if you can recall?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would like to see some more of him, the only video I saw was vs. a black Yoshi and while he did lose he did do good. I just want to see a video where he destroys. You seem to be a fan, so I'm curious which vid of his is your favorite, if you can recall?

I think I generally like all his matches, though his older ones ARE getting a bit outdated (his precision and reactions have gotten better if you compare his older matches to his newer ones).
Combo video worthy material
Very good demonstration of how to be terrifyingly patient and observant

 

[AquaTech]

Checking in with fellow Ganon's. I've been playing him the last 2 weeks and won a local tournament at my school this past week with him. I'm most curious to see if custom moves are allowed long term (I hope so), and how the transition to WiiU setup will affect certain characters.

 

[Neverbound]

Half of every ganon match up is if your opponent thinks you are a free win and underestimates you, praying for dair cancel in the wiiU version.

Fair and bair land so smooth in this game

 

[Xinc]

I regret to saying I caused a guy to throw his 3ds onto the floor (it didn't break, miraculously) after successfully using an up tilt to kill his Shulk. Apparently, I've become among the best in the 3ds in my uni and it's known my Ganon is the "sw@gest in all the land."

I often find I'm good with people who are outright aggro, but a bit less with people who are passive aggressive, because it's harder to straight up force their aggression away. But I do enjoy punishing missed tech rolls <3 I've gotten 5 chokes in a row before wizKicking someone.

 

[Grey Belnades]

I've actually played with him before in FG, again Ganondorf dittos. I, for the most part, won but he does have tricks up his sleeve that caught me off guard. Did he do what he did to me and bair'd into aerial flame choke?

No. It felt more like a beginner who was quickly learning/adapting Ganon play.

Palutena's naive and weak, unbefitting of a goddess. Fate, yet again, proves a sick sense of humor.

Honestly, Palutena's Guidence thingamajigs are so lackluster when compared to Snake's Codecs.

 

[Mocha]

No. It felt more like a beginner who was quickly learning/adapting Ganon play.



Honestly, Palutena's Guidence thingamajigs are so lackluster when compared to Snake's Codecs.

Agreed. Though my fondness for Snake's codecs was partially biased. I miss the manly, husky voice.

Anyway, some of Palutena's codecs were amusing, but the Ganondorf one seemed a bit... off. I suppose they thought that giving more accurate information on Ganondorf's origin would have been too much of a spoiler? But come on, even people who haven't played Skyward Sword by now know the reason for his existence.

 

[Xinc]

The King of Porkness' conversation wasn't very good, I feel. The convos lacked a little bit of ... finesse? But it was funny all the same.

 

[DLA]

Not exactly Smash 4, but I'm on the PMDT so I figure I'll plug it in case anyone hasn't seen it yet. PM 3.5 is being released in 2 days, and we gave Ganon a cape reflect and a float, both from OoT. You can see them in action at around 1:39 in the video. I fought hard for these, and even wrote my application essay on this very subject; hopefully you guys will give him a chance, as I believe this will be his most fearsome incarnation yet.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Not exactly Smash 4, but I'm on the PMDT so I figure I'll plug it in case anyone hasn't seen it yet. PM 3.5 is being released in 2 days, and we gave Ganon a cape reflect and a float, both from OoT. You can see them in action at around 1:39 in the video. I fought hard for these, and even wrote my application essay on this very subject; hopefully you guys will give him a chance, as I believe this will be his most fearsome incarnation yet.

Mind pointing us to a link to said essay? Sounds fun to read...

Also, changelogs?

 

[Grey Belnades]

Agreed. Though my fondness for Snake's codecs was partially biased. I miss the manly, husky voice.

The convos lacked a little bit of ... finesse?

That too. I felt that the voice actors for Palutena's guidances were lacking in tone and interest.

Anyway, some of Palutena's codecs were amusing, but the Ganondorf one seemed a bit... off. I suppose they thought that giving more accurate information on Ganondorf's origin would have been too much of a spoiler? But come on, even people who haven't played Skyward Sword by now know the reason for his existence.

And the lack of the background history of the character was another hit and miss. Like G&W's Palutena conversation was all about the 9 which anyone playing Smash knows about.

PM 3.5 is being released in 2 days, and we gave Ganon a cape reflect and a float, both from OoT. You can see them in action at around 1:39 in the video. I fought hard for these, and even wrote my application essay on this very subject; hopefully you guys will give him a chance, as I believe this will be his most fearsome incarnation yet.

This is a social thread so I think it's alright to talk about this. I'm looking forward to trying my hand with 3.5's Ganon iteration.

but I'm on the PMDT

Gib Lyn pls.

 

[Xinc]

That too. I felt that the voice actors for Palutena's guidances were lacking in tone and interest.



And the lack of the background history of the character was another hit and miss. Like G&W's Palutena conversation was all about the 9 which anyone playing Smash knows about.



This is a social thread so I think it's alright to talk about this. I'm looking forward to trying my hand with 3.5's Ganon iteration.



Gib Lyn pls.

I have no clue what to do with Ganon's float.

Also, Ganon's windbox does have weird properties for his up tilt. It appears there's passive wind once it hits. I broke a shield near the ledge and the guy just went into stun and was unable to recover after falling off.

 

[DLA]

Mind pointing us to a link to said essay? Sounds fun to read...

Also, changelogs?

I can't give out changelogs, unfortunately. I'm sure they'll release something comprehensive along with the patch. I don't see any harm in sharing my essay though--it has a lot of sentiments I'm sure many of you will agree with. And considering how close my arguments are to what we ended up actually doing with Ganon this patch, you can see why I'm a little proud of this essay.

Spoiler: PMBR essay

“Why would you play Ganondorf?” I was asked this more than any other question throughout my Brawl career. Despite his titanic power, intimidating spacing tools, and impressive tech chase options (a phenomenon almost nonexistent in Brawl), Ganondorf still languished in the bottom tier due to his poor frame data, pitiful recovery, and lack of approaching options. With his rebirth in Project M, the developers have opted to fuse the Melee and Brawl incarnations, combining the various strengths of both versions to create a more offensively dynamic character. However, I feel that Ganondorf has never been short on strengths; it’s his glaring weaknesses that cripple him in every environment he’s in, which is a problem that developers have yet to address in a meaningful way. I feel that Ganondorf needs improvements to his recovery, approaching options, and out-of-shield game in order to be a truly competitive character.

Let’s back up a bit; Ganondorf has another problem, and it’s not necessarily balance-related. We’ll call it the “Curse of the Melee Clones”, and it still affects him to this day. While both the Brawl and the PM developers have taken measures to distance him from Captain Falcon, I’m still extremely disappointed that Ganondorf doesn’t have a single move that resembles any of his attacks in the Zelda games. I think this should be taken into account when improving his recovery in PM. The final Ganondorf fight in Ocarina of Time comes to mind for this purpose; he flies around almost the entire fight, which gives him the general impression that he wouldn’t have any problems recovering in a Super Smash Bros game. Though we’d need to be careful not to make it too close to Mewtwo’s Float, I feel like giving Ganondorf some capability of flight would fit right in with the character. Hell, he even floats during one of his taunts. I think an important thing to focus on while designing his flight would be to not let it give him a big offensive bonus; his flight should be designed to patch up his recovery, which is still one of the easiest recoveries in the game to gimp, if not the easiest. I don’t think an omnidirectional float like Mewtwo’s would be a good idea—maybe a short, 1-1.5 second float with some kind of fixed vertical angle or parabolic arc that wouldn’t let him rise fast enough to use offensively. Or maybe an extended slow fall. Something that won’t drastically alter his playstyle, but still give him sorely needed utility offstage.

Another improvement he needs is his approaching game. PM has introduced a slew of characters with very good projectiles, many of which effectively shut him down due to his height and movement speed. Anyone who has tried to fight Link, Falco, or Mario with Ganondorf can attest to this. Since making Ganondorf smaller or faster is out of the question, we’ll have to look at changing his moveset to fix this issue. An option would be giving him a projectile of his own: namely, the iconic energy ball attack from OoT. I know that this idea has been tossed around ever since the first Brawl mods came about—the ridiculous Gandouken in Brawl- comes to mind. I do think that it’s possible to make this work, given the talent of our animators; but I’m worried that this would change Ganon’s playstyle too much from the current bait-heavy character that he is. That’s why I think he should be given his other signature move from OoT: the ability to reflect projectiles with his cape. Warlock Punch is pretty much useless and most serious Ganon players wouldn’t lament it being replaced by a move that actually does something worthwhile. I think you could even tweak the Warlock Punch animation to make it look like he’s swinging his cape, which would theoretically mean you can keep Warlock Punch if you wanted to. I think the reflector would have to be faster than average in order for it to be of much use to him, because if he has to stop and use a slow reflector to approach, it’ll stop his approach and not do him much good anyways. If you made the move faster or you’re able to vary the timing, but remove any secondary effects (Mario’s cape gimps, Mewtwo’s confusion pops them up, the spacies’ shines are… shines), I think it could be made balanced. Maybe give him a fairly weak hitbox when he swings his arm. Either way, I hope something is done, because Ganondorf gets walled out too easily right now.

The last of Ganon’s largest weaknesses is his OoS game. I’ll start with his grab, which is still ridiculously small for having the largest arms out of any human character in the game. He had the smallest grab range in the game in Brawl, and I don’t think it’s changed much in PM. I understand that his grab can’t be huge, due to how good his throw game is. But considering how few decent OoS options he has overall, I think his grab range deserves at least a small buff. With the current grab range, his height makes it way too difficult to grab smaller characters. All of this wouldn’t be a problem if he had a decent aerial OoS; Nair has potential, but it doesn’t reach low enough and only really works well when his opponent is diagonally above him. This makes characters like Fox able to pressure his shield for free, as there’s very little he can safely do to get out of the pressure. I think making Nair reach lower to hit most opponents out of a rising short hop would do wonders for his OoS game, but still be balanced because Nair is a slow move and you probably won’t be able to combo out of rising Nair very well. I think implementing any of these ideas would help Ganondorf out quite a bit.

Whenever someone asked me why I played Ganondorf in Brawl, the only reply I could think to give was “because I have fun with him.” And while improvements have been made in PM and he’s still a blast to play, I do think that having the community be in charge of the development of this character gives us an opportunity to correct the misguided (and sometimes lazy) mistakes of the previous two iterations. I think this is something we need to take advantage of, and I’d love to be a part of that--not just for Ganondorf, but for the entire cast as well.

 

[Lozjam]

Hmmm that brings up the question.... Is PM Ganon better than Smash 4 Ganon? I mean... Smash 4 Ganondorf really benefits from the changes in the mechanics, he can deal with projectiles a lot better(WDK is a huge blessing, though the reflect will also buff Ganondorf) and I feel that while he is still Lower-Mid to Low Tier, I feel like he is still a fantastic character to play a in Smash 4. He isn't at a huge disadvantage against most characters, and also in the Wii U version he will be buffed to hell with DACUS.

 

[Opana]

Not a PM player but that was undoubtedly cool.

 

[Xinc]

Hmmm that brings up the question.... Is PM Ganon better than Smash 4 Ganon? I mean... Smash 4 Ganondorf really benefits from the changes in the mechanics, he can deal with projectiles a lot better(WDK is a huge blessing, though the reflect will also buff Ganondorf) and I feel that while he is still Lower-Mid to Low Tier, I feel like he is still a fantastic character to play a in Smash 4. He isn't at a huge disadvantage against most characters, and also in the Wii U version he will be buffed to hell with DACUS.

Smash 4 Ganon is a slower version of PM Ganon. PM Ganon has the luxury of wavedash and waveland ATs, as well as L-cancels, which makes all his moves far safer than Smash 4's version. Still, Smash4 Ganon isn't that bad, but I'd take PM Ganon over Smash 4 Ganon, but he fits the job as well.

 

[Lozjam]

Smash 4 Ganon is a slower version of PM Ganon. PM Ganon has the luxury of wavedash and waveland ATs, as well as L-cancels, which makes all his moves far safer than Smash 4's version. Still, Smash4 Ganon isn't that bad, but I'd take PM Ganon over Smash 4 Ganon, but he fits the job as well.

But Smash 4 Ganondorf has an undeniably better ground game, thanks to at's such as quaking, and Dacus and with custom moves, especially the WDK, which also gives him a far better, harder to gimp recovery that allows him to recover all the way from the blast zones of stages, and is also a fantastic way to get past projectiles and is safer than the regular Wizards foot. If thunder storming miraculously comes back in the Wii U version, then Smash 4 Ganondorf is better without any question of a doubt.
The super armor on some of his moves really helps too.

 

[Xinc]

But Smash 4 Ganondorf has an undeniably better ground game, thanks to at's such as quaking, and Dacus and with custom moves, especially the WDK, which also gives him a far better, harder to gimp recovery that allows him to recover all the way from the blast zones of stages, and is also a fantastic way to get past projectiles and is safer than the regular Wizards foot. If thunder storming miraculously comes back in the Wii U version, then Smash 4 Ganondorf is better without any question of a doubt.
The super armor on some of his moves really helps too.

PM Ganon can quake too. Only Melee Ganon can't.

I'm not denying Smash 4 Ganon has all these wonderful tools.

But PM Ganon is far more flexible and safer to approach with. He can manage spacing and approaching far easier.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, PM Ganon > Smash 4 Ganon by a significant margin. Grab range, safe frontal zoning tools + DAir = better Ganon.

 

[Burruni]

I have a bit of a story.

My girlfriend has been alongside me for every step of the hype from E3 2013 to release and beyond. She's finally joined my adoration of . The matches between her puff and my have been some of the most intense bouts I've had in Smash.
I read her trying a rest beyond belief, so I started up Warlock Punch. I miscalculated that she had the distance right... and it hit. But because of the IMMENSE super armor on the windup, I didn't even flinch and punished her for LANDING rest.

So thus, we come to my new nickname for the Gerudo King of Evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83SQ9Runp2Y

"Nothin' makes you feel more like a man than a ThunderCougarFalcondorf. So, are you planning to main this ThunderCougarFalcondorf?"
"Sorry, I prefer Spacies."
"I understand and it's wonderful that you don't care how hard Puffs punish you with up-throw rest."
"I care! I care plenty! I just don't know how to make them stop!"
"One word. ThunderCougarFalcondorf."