The First Party general support thread

[3DSNinja]

Wii Fit because I don't think just because something sells well it should be in Smash
GTA V sold well, doesn't mean we need a GTA character

 

[Deleted member]

Jibanyan is third party.

Thanks got it corrected. Now.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Wii Fit because I don't think just because something sells well it should be in Smash
GTA V sold well, doesn't mean we need a GTA character

At the same time, can you think of a reason why a series with such unique content to bring shouldn't be in Smash? What other series can bring the content, the music, the moveset that Wii Fit does?

Like, the GTA argument works because as much as I adore GTA and its characters, moveset wise you're stuck with "guy with guns" and that's something that can be done by many other characters. I can't really think of any character that can do what Wii Fit Trainer does, or bring the gym aesthetic with the Wii Fit stage, or have that soothing music, etc.

 

[Sysreq]

Wii Fit because I don't think just because something sells well it should be in Smash
GTA V sold well, doesn't mean we need a GTA character

There's a difference between "jumping the gun" and "don't need". Wii Fit came out in 2007 and Smash 4 came out in 2014; that's a 7 year difference compared to, say, Corrin, who was DLC before FE Fates was even released in the west. If you don't like Wii Fit Trainer, fine, whatever. But I don't think they jumped the gun on her.

 

[Jurae818]

Hell, do you think ANY Ice Climbers fans are actually fans of their origin game?

Present. Ice Climber was my first game. I was ecstatic when I found out both climbers were fighters in Melee in 2005.

I too want to see more first parties or more Nintendo characters in general. I have a feeling they'll focus on recent releases with the next batch of DLC characters. For me, my personal picks are:

Dixie Kong
Hilda (e)
Blood Falcon (e)
Lip
Captain Syrup
Yuga
Ganon (Classic Ganon to be exact)
Ray-01
Louie
General Scales

 

[Quillion]

Piranha Plant is not "jumping the gun", I don't know why people are saying this. It has been a longtime staple of the main Mario series unlike bandwagon spinoff characters Waluigi and Geno.

When I say "jump the gun", I mean characters that were too new to be in Smash. Those that weren't at least a console generation old during their debut.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Piranha Plant is not "jumping the gun", I don't know why people are saying this. It has been a longtime staple of the main Mario series unlike bandwagon spinoff characters Waluigi and Geno.

When I say "jump the gun", I mean characters that were too new to be in Smash. Those that weren't at least a console generation old during their debut.

Corrin probably. Especially in my region where Fates was pushed back further and further.

I guess Roy too, but the west was unfamiliar with Fire Emblem as a whole so it's not like the majority of people even knew Marth was far more established.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Piranha Plant is not "jumping the gun", I don't know why people are saying this. It has been a longtime staple of the main Mario series unlike bandwagon spinoff characters Waluigi and Geno.

When I say "jump the gun", I mean characters that were too new to be in Smash. Those that weren't at least a console generation old during their debut.

I disagree with your definition of jumping the gun then.

 

[Sysreq]

I disagree with your definition of jumping the gun then.

I mean, I don't think the definition is really up for debate.

Unless you're arguing that there was never a proper time for Piranha Plant, then I think Quillion is right. Though to be fair, I also think Quillion is wrong in citing Geno and Waluigi as examples as they have been around for a long time.

 

[Wigglerman]

The only characters I'd say are jumping the gun are Corrin, Incineroar and Piranha Plant, because I don't think they have any merit to justify their being in Smash. (Also I think the latter two have dreadful movesets, but that's not the main reason)

Plant isn't a 'jump the gun'. You may be thinking 'jumping the shark' though which some may agree with. But I feel Plant is fine.

But I will be adamant (nature) that Incineroar's move set is rad. His move set, honestly, is one of the best in the game held back mostly by his dreadful speed and air mobility (Not just best because it's cool and flavorful to a big wrestling cat but the overall Incineroar has some great attacks. Up air is dumb, up smash is good, neutral b is silly, nair is amazing, the alolan whip is dope, fair and bair have pretty good range and power, tilt is crazy and his grabs are arguably some of the better ones in the game in a game with pretty bad grab since he at least gets confirms off one of the throws and KO throws with two of them, and just the general insane amount of intangibility/invulnerability' on his limbs during most attacks is crazy).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Incineroar's move set is rad.

Said moveset also makes me think they forgot to model a zipper on Incineroar's back.

 

[Wigglerman]

Said moveset also makes me think they forgot to model a zipper on Incineroar's back.

Wanna elaborate more on that?

 

[Quillion]

Said moveset also makes me think they forgot to model a zipper on Incineroar's back.

Wanna elaborate more on that?

Eh, just blame it on the fact that Smash has never really properly balanced heavies for competitive. They have a major problem not giving heavies either range, mobility, or frames to keep up with the speedsters.

Still love using them, though.

I mean, I don't think the definition is really up for debate.
View attachment 241845
Unless you're arguing that there was never a proper time for Piranha Plant, then I think Quillion is right. Though to be fair, I also think Quillion is wrong in citing Geno and Waluigi as examples as they have been around for a long time.

I wasn't citing Geno and Waluigi as new characters. I was referring to the misuse of "jump the gun" as meaning "didn't need", and I don't think we need spinoff characters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wanna elaborate more on that?

Eh, just blame it on the fact that Smash has never really properly balanced heavies for competitive. They have a major problem not giving heavies either range, mobility, or frames to keep up with the speedsters.

It has nothing to to with competitive viability, although I would like some more Pokemon that would be competitively viable. It has to do with Incineroar's moveset being entirely human. Greninja didn't have this problem, they made a moveset for a water-type frog ninja, not just a ninja.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, getting back on topic before it inevitably derails and gets closed.

If I could pick from First Party series already represented, I'd go with:

-Pauline
-Kamek
-Adeleine and Ribbon
-Slippy
-Mimikyu
-Porky
-Byleth/Celica
-Viridi
-9-Volt/Ashley
-Elma/Rex

 

[Quillion]

I'm surprised there's a lot of Pauline support. If she were playable, would people expect her to be the "dumping ground" for Mario's Cappy moves?

 

[NintenRob]

I'm surprised there's a lot of Pauline support. If she were playable, would people expect her to be the "dumping ground" for Mario's Cappy moves?

I think there are three / four routes they could go with her

1. Use the minis, until Odyssey, that was the only franchise keeping her relevant. There are plenty of them now each with a unique ability

2. Odyssey moves, as you mentioned

3. Stereotypical "Lady" moves. Like using her hand bag and parasol, maybe even pepper spray.

4. All of the above

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean, I don't think the definition is really up for debate.
View attachment 241845
Unless you're arguing that there was never a proper time for Piranha Plant, then I think Quillion is right. Though to be fair, I also think Quillion is wrong in citing Geno and Waluigi as examples as they have been around for a long time.

Plant isn't a 'jump the gun'. You may be thinking 'jumping the shark' though which some may agree with. But I feel Plant is fine.

But I will be adamant (nature) that Incineroar's move set is rad. His move set, honestly, is one of the best in the game held back mostly by his dreadful speed and air mobility (Not just best because it's cool and flavorful to a big wrestling cat but the overall Incineroar has some great attacks. Up air is dumb, up smash is good, neutral b is silly, nair is amazing, the alolan whip is dope, fair and bair have pretty good range and power, tilt is crazy and his grabs are arguably some of the better ones in the game in a game with pretty bad grab since he at least gets confirms off one of the throws and KO throws with two of them, and just the general insane amount of intangibility/invulnerability' on his limbs during most attacks is crazy).

Ah that's right, I got mixed up with jumping the shark. In that case yeah, only Corrin and Incineroar I'd say were jumping the gun. Well, Roy and Greninja too, but those ended up alright.

I'm surprised there's a lot of Pauline support. If she were playable, would people expect her to be the "dumping ground" for Mario's Cappy moves?

I've seen more support for the idea of her using Mini-Marios and the like.

 

[fogbadge]

It has nothing to to with competitive viability, although I would like some more Pokemon that would be competitively viable. It has to do with Incineroar's moveset being entirely human. Greninja didn't have this problem, they made a moveset for a water-type frog ninja, not just a ninja.

im with you inceneroar feels more like a generic wrestler than inceneroar

considering the logic sakurai went with for choosing him though makes me wonder what he was picturing for decidueye

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Been saying this for a while now.

It’s so weird how people insist that any Nintendo character not in yet should never be because they’re “bottom of the barrel” and then full on soyface at Piranha Plant, whose entire appeal begins and ends at being as bottom of the barrel as humanly possible.

— Iron Joe - Ashley & Red for whatever can have ‘em (@IronJoeBro) October 13, 2019

You don’t have to hate Plant or want anyone I do but at least be consistent in your reasoning.

— Iron Joe - Ashley & Red for whatever can have ‘em (@IronJoeBro) October 13, 2019

It would really annoy me if the Plant was actually the last 1st Party character to get in the final Smash game to bring back every veteran.

 

[fogbadge]

Been saying this for a while now.

It would really annoy me if the Plant was actually the last 1st Party character to get in the final Smash game to bring back every veteran.

yeah itd annoy me too

 

[Guynamednelson]

"be consistent in your reasoning."

Please don't expect this from people who went "NOOOO! NOT BANJO! WE GOTTA HAVE STEVE INSTEAD BECAUSE HE'S WAY MORE MAINSTREAM!" but not "NOOOO! NOT TERRY! WE GOTTA HAVE SCORPION INSTEAD BECAUSE HE'S WAY MORE MAINSTREAM!"

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'm surprised there's a lot of Pauline support. If she were playable, would people expect her to be the "dumping ground" for Mario's Cappy moves?

Personally I envision her hitting people with her mic stand, kicking out with a twirl for her down smash, final smash is obviously "Jump Up Super Star" which forces those within range to get their groove on(represented by taunting) leaving them open to attack similar to Peach and Daisy without the healing option.

However that's only three things off the top of my head which leaves a lot left. Maybe have her force a New Donker to take a hit like what Peach does with Toad.
I guess she could terraform with skyscrapers briefly like she does in Aces for her Special Shot, but people seem down on terraformers in general.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'm surprised there's a lot of Pauline support. If she were playable, would people expect her to be the "dumping ground" for Mario's Cappy moves?

Well, that was pretty much Rosalina for Mario's Luma moves, it makes sense as she's one of the big symbols of Odyssey just like Rosalina was for Galaxy.

 

[Quillion]

Well, that was pretty much Rosalina for Mario's Luma moves, it makes sense as she's one of the big symbols of Odyssey just like Rosalina was for Galaxy.

At least having Lumas fight against Rosalina made sense for them. Pauline doesn't even use a Bonneter at all.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

In terms of 1st party characters go I already got what I wanted, but I most certainly vouch for more.

 

[Perkilator]

Pauline could make use of Mini Marios for a couple of her moves.

 

[zipzapsparkle]

At least having Lumas fight against Rosalina made sense for them. Pauline doesn't even use a Bonneter at all.

There is one that plays in her band but regarding your previous question. Pauline is more associated with music.

In her playable appearances so far there’s a lot of musical references. For tennis her special smash has her singing in a concert before smashing the ball at her enemies.

In Mario Kart she sings or hums for some of her lines, and her special 7 includes a super horn or whatever it’s called.

I think a music based moveset works best for her but I’m not opposed to a minis based or Odyssey based moveset either.

 

[PhantomShab]

Been saying this for a while now.

It’s so weird how people insist that any Nintendo character not in yet should never be because they’re “bottom of the barrel” and then full on soyface at Piranha Plant, whose entire appeal begins and ends at being as bottom of the barrel as humanly possible.

— Iron Joe - Ashley & Red for whatever can have ‘em (@IronJoeBro) October 13, 2019

You don’t have to hate Plant or want anyone I do but at least be consistent in your reasoning.

— Iron Joe - Ashley & Red for whatever can have ‘em (@IronJoeBro) October 13, 2019

It would really annoy me if the Plant was actually the last 1st Party character to get in the final Smash game to bring back every veteran.

That guy is so close to figuring out that Plant's fanbase is 95% meme spouting btfo-culture obsessed twitter dwellers. Like he's right on the cusp of it lol

 

[Mushroomguy12]

That guy is so close to figuring out that Plant's fanbase is 95% meme spouting btfo-culture obsessed twitter dwellers. Like he's right on the cusp of it lol

I think he/she already knows that.

 

[Quillion]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

Spinoff characters are a weird one for Mario I feel. Daisy is basically a spinoff character lest you count her appearance in Mario Land, which if you did, would make her a one shot.

Technically Yoshi's entire subseries is a spinoff. Dr. Mario is without a doubt a spinoff. Warioware is a spinoff of a spinoff. And then you could argue the entire Mario series itself is a spinoff of Donkey Kong Arcade if you wanted to get super anal about it all.

Then there's Toadette who started as a spinoff fodder cast member but has become the defacto player 4 in the New Super Mario Bros. Style games alongside appearing in the Super Mario games of late. Does she count as spinoff fodder or not?

Lastly I also find it difficult to discount Waluigi as an important or at least recognisable Nintendo character because Mario Kart alone outsells everything else in Nintendo's library that isn't Super Mario, Pokémon and the Wii series. Not even Zelda can compete with that particular Mario spinoff's mega success.

That said, Toad please still. He has the perfect Mario Kart attendence and is one of the more popular racers(Seems to be a toss up between him and Yoshi) whilst still being Super Mario canon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

Just because it happened once doesn't mean it'll be recurring. Sakurai thought the heroes would be a better DQ rep than Slime, for example. And they're considerably more of a mascot for their franchise than Piranha Plant!

 

[UserKev]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

This is difficult to agree with. YES, I'm happy enemies are on the table but some amazing characters are currently one shots.

 

[Calamitas]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

Are they, though? As of right now, we still have to see an actual first-party character for DLC that isn't Plant. And even if we do finally get one, I doubt that they would give use another mook for this game's DLC.

If you were talking about future Smash games though, then nevermind. If it comes to those, I'd agree about mooks being on the table.
Not so much on the part about spin-offs though. I'd rather take someone like, say, Lana from Hyrule Warriors than something like an Octorock.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'm a fan of Plant just for broadening Smash's horizons. Now enemies are on the table, which is much better than putting in spinoff characters or one-shots.

Are they though? I'd much rather we have spinoffs and one-shots over generic mooks, myself. At least characters like Waluigi, Skull Kid, and Geno have somewhat of a unique identity. I'd take any of those characters over a Bokoblin or Goomba anyday.

 

[Quillion]

Are they though? I'd much rather we have spinoffs and one-shots over generic mooks, myself. At least characters like Waluigi, Skull Kid, and Geno have somewhat of a unique identity. I'd take any of those characters over a Bokoblin or Goomba anyday.

Enemies are icons of an entire series in themselves instead of icons of side things or just one game.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Enemies are icons of an entire series in themselves instead of icons of side things or just one game.

Doesn’t mean they are important enough to be playable in an All Star Crossover game. People remember side characters and one offs far more than generic mooks. Static objects and items are also icons of series, doesn’t mean a brick block or a mushroom should be playable in Smash.

 

[TheTuninator]

Pirahna Plant is more iconic than most of the roster, as well as almost all of the mooted newcomers.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pirahna Plant is more iconic than most of the roster, as well as almost all of the mooted newcomers.

Goku is also more iconic than most in the roster, doesn’t mean he should be in.