The First Party general support thread

[TheTuninator]

Goku is also more iconic than most in the roster, doesn’t mean he should be in.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Goku can't be in because he's not a video game character, whereas Pirahna Plant has no such issue. You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Goku can't be in because he's not a video game character, whereas Pirahna Plant has no such issue. You're comparing apples and oranges.

My point was that Being Iconic =/= Being a good fit for Smash.

Obviously I don’t want Goku in, because there are other factors that get in his way. Similarly, just because the Plant is Iconic does not mean it’s a better fit than characters like Waluigi, Dixie Kong, and Isaac because there are also other factors dampening its perceived belonging in Smash, being a generic mook with zero actual character and FAR less memorability.

Iconicness is not a be all end all requirement for Smash, some of the most beloved characters are not iconic and to use that as a sole excuse is disingenuous.

 

[Lenidem]

My point was that Iconic =/= Being a good fit for Smash.

Obviously I don’t want Goku in, because there are other factors that get in his way. Similarly, just because the Plant is Iconic does not mean it’s a better fit than characters like Waluigi and Isaac because there are also other factors dampening his perceived belonging in Smash, being a generic mook with zero actual character and FAR less memorability.

Iconicness is not a be all end all requirement for Smash, some of the most beloved characters are not iconic and to use that as a sole excuse is disingenuous.

I love you.

 

[TheYungLink]

I appreciate Piranha Plant's inclusion because one of my pipe dream wants for Smash was a regular Shy Guy because they're cute and versatile with all the stuff they can do, especially in the Yoshi's Island series, and now that little wish of mine is somewhat realistic.

If we got more regular enemies, I'd like to see a couple more Mario ones, and maybe Slime from Dragon Quest.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I probably wouldn't have minded the Plant if it wasn't for the fact that Smash slots are so precious. It wasn't its inclusion in it of itself that ticked me off, it was it's inclusion over SO MANY other characters that have been asked for since forever, in the final game to bring back every character in the series.

Plant would have been perfectly at home in a Mario Tennis or Mario Kart game.

 

[Wigglerman]

I probably wouldn't have minded the Plant if it wasn't for the fact that Smash slots are so precious. It wasn't its inclusion in it of itself that ticked me off, it was it's inclusion over SO MANY other characters that have been asked for since forever, in the final game to bring back every character in the series.

Plant would have been perfectly at home in a Mario Tennis or Mario Kart game.

Just a tad over dramatic about it, though. It wasn't like Plant replaced anyone in the roster. He's a new addition and was a (temporarily) free addition as a way to kick off the Fighters Pass without technically being part of the pass. If he'd gotten in over veterans, then sure I could see the salt being reasonable. His inclusion feels very similar to Mewtwo from Smash U where he wasn't quite ready for inclusion before the game had to be shipped so was tossed out shortly after.

Slots are 'precious'? Yeah...but...but not really. Honestly. People are really too emotionally hung up on character slots. It's becoming worrisome.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Just a tad over dramatic about it, though. It wasn't like Plant replaced anyone in the roster. He's a new addition and was a (temporarily) free addition as a way to kick off the Fighters Pass without technically being part of the pass. If he'd gotten in over veterans, then sure I could see the salt being reasonable. His inclusion feels very similar to Mewtwo from Smash U where he wasn't quite ready for inclusion before the game had to be shipped so was tossed out shortly after.

Slots are 'precious'? Yeah...but...but not really. Honestly. People are really too emotionally hung up on character slots. It's becoming worrisome.

He did "replace" someone. He took a very large amount of development time, as with every unique character, development time that could have been spent on any other character, in a game where newcomer slots were very limited. (We only got 6 unique newcomers in the base roster.) So yes, slots are precious, especially when everyone and their mother uses them as a justification for why 1st Party DLC would be a "waste".

Mewtwo was a beloved veteran who people had been clamoring for since he was cut in Brawl. He was a far better start to the DLC than Plant was in that he was a fan favorite that genuinely felt missing from the roster. There is no one on Planet Earth that was unironically clamoring for Plant prior to the knowledge of his confirmation.

 

[Sebas22]

Thread:"We need more first party characters!"
Me: I agree!
Thread:"Check this massive list! There are still good Nintendo characters left!"
Me: YES!!!
Thread: "Piranha Plant is very stinky, a waste of a slot and should go to a different game!"
Me: It was good while it lasted. Goodbye gentlemen.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Thread:"We need more first party characters!"
Me: I agree!
Thread:"Check this massive list! There are still good Nintendo characters left!"
Me: YES!!!
Thread: "Piranha Plant is very stinky, a waste of a slot and should go to a different game!"
Me: It was good while it lasted. Goodbye gentlemen.

Everyone outside the thread: Plant is a great unique character, I love him for the ironic memes and lulz!
Thread: OK, let's have some more 1st Parties.
Everyone outside the thread: LOL, why would you want to WASTE precious precious slots on BOttOm Of THe BaRrel picks, every 1st Party left is a complete waste, but not my beautiful and precious Plant, I'm going to go make 10 comics and videos of him laughing at all the characters that didn't get in.
Thread: That's not very nice. The remaining 1st Parties aren't any less qualified than Plant.
You: How DARE you! Stop being MEAN towards Piranha Plant!

 

[Wigglerman]

Thread:"We need more first party characters!"
Me: I agree!
Thread:"Check this massive list! There are still good Nintendo characters left!"
Me: YES!!!
Thread: "Piranha Plant is very stinky, a waste of a slot and should go to a different game!"
Me: It was good while it lasted. Goodbye gentlemen.

You see, the problem is that even among first party, there's a list of who 'DESERVES' things. Gotta keep that in mind. No stinky low life noob minions! We need those obscure or even more niche than ever first parties! YEAH! THEY DESERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-*trails off drooling*

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You see, the problem is that even among first party, there's a list of who 'DESERVES' things. Gotta keep that in mind. No stinky low life noob minions! We need those obscure or even more niche than ever first parties! YEAH! THEY DESERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-*trails off drooling*

On the contrary, we have people defending to the death those stinky low life noob minions and screaming about how they are the most 'DESERVING' *drools* characters EVER on the sole basis that they were added by Sakurai, while simultaneously mocking those that want more 1st Parties and deriding their picks as pipe dreams and desperate delusions (like you).

They are the kind of people who would defend Goku, Batman, and a walking dil** in Smash if Sakurai actually added them to the game, on the sole basis that Sakurai added them to the game and he is a God that can do absolutely no wrong whatsoever, being immune from even the slightest of criticism.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Tbf while I find Plant fun, he's not even the most iconic Mario minion if we want to take that angle. Koopa Troopa and Goomba surely best him in terms of recognisability. Possibly Boo and Chain Chomp too.

Heck, we even had a whole heap of first party support threads for Koopa Troopa, Goomba and Shy Guy prior to Plant's inclusion so it's not like there totally wasn't any demand for a Mario minion...Plant just wasn't one of them being asked for.

 

[Curious Villager]

Tbf while I find Plant fun, he's not even the most iconic Mario minion if we want to take that angle. Koopa Troopa and Goomba surely best him in terms of recognisability. Possibly Boo and Chain Chomp too.

Heck, we even had a whole heap of first party support threads for Koopa Troopa, Goomba and Shy Guy prior to Plant's inclusion so it's not like there totally wasn't any demand for a Mario minion...Plant just wasn't one of them being asked for.

I mean, being fair, if it counts, there was a support thread for Petey Piranha if I recall, so some people did want at least a member of the Piranha Plant family playable. It might have been seen as more feasible due to its more humanoid proportions, which is probably also why that was the one commonly used in spin offs as well before Ultimate.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I mean, being fair, if it counts, there was a support thread for Petey Piranha if I recall, so some people did want at least a member of the Piranha Plant family playable. It might have been seen as more feasible due to its more humanoid proportions, which is probably also why that was the one commonly used in spin offs as well before Ultimate.

Possibly, but I think Petey is probably popular for his own sake, much like King Boo is popular for his own sake. I guess if Plant was to satisfy Petey fans... it's not great tbh.

People still want Ganon as playable, people still want Tom Nook and people still wanted Chrom as playable. I don't think a moveset cameo really fulfills fans of that characters desires.

I am highly bias though being called YoshiandTOAD. Peach and Daisy definitely don't satisfy my desire for a fully playable fun guy so I could just be projecting.

 

[Curious Villager]

Possibly, but I think Petey is probably popular for his own sake, much like King Boo is popular for his own sake. I guess if Plant was to satisfy Petey fans... it's not great tbh.

People still want Ganon as playable, people still want Tom Nook and people still wanted Chrom as playable. I don't think a moveset cameo really fulfills fans of that characters desires.

I am highly bias though being called YoshiandTOAD. Peach and Daisy definitely don't satisfy my desire for a fully playable fun guy so I could just be projecting.

I mean you talked in regards to the demand of Mario minions and the lack of demand for a piranha plant so I thought I'd mention it.

Eitherway though, like I said, the actual enemy itself has never really been playable before prior to Ultimate besides the brief moments you can capture one in Odyssey so I'm not too surprised that no one really considered this particular enemy before. Not to mention the obvious "how would it move" type arguments it would spawn anyway even if someone did think to support it.

Its basically another Wii Fit Trainer type of case where Sakurai wanted to think outside of the box as far as newcomers went, regardless of their lack of demand.

 

[fogbadge]

i feel bad for all the nintendo characters from games that are so niche we may never see them again

 

[Calamitas]

i feel bad for all the nintendo characters from games that are so niche we may never see them again

That reminds me that I'm one of the maybe three people on this board that played The Last Story. I still would love seeing Zael making it in.

 

[fogbadge]

That reminds me that I'm one of the maybe three people on this board that played The Last Story. I still would love seeing Zael making it in.

as one of the only three people whos played sushi striker i empathise

 

[Calamitas]

as one of the only three people whos played sushi striker i empathise

The Last Story was honestly particularly ****ed during the Wii U era though. I mean, other games that were in a similar boat with it in regards to a Western localization like Xenoblade and Pandora's Tower got a Wii U eShop rerelease. The Last Story couldn't really get that though, since it had an online mode.

 

[fogbadge]

The Last Story was honestly particularly ****ed during the Wii U era though. I mean, other games that were in a similar boat with it in regards to a Western localization like Xenoblade and Pandora's Tower got a Wii U eShop rerelease. The Last Story couldn't really get that though, since it had an online mode.

thats is a real shame

 

[GoodGrief741]

as one of the only three people whos played sushi striker i empathise

I played the demo, really good game. Shame it got stuck with that $50 pricetag, it would have done great if it was cheaper.

 

[Sysreq]

as one of the only three people whos played sushi striker i empathise

Yeah I played the demo too and it was pretty neat. As expressed previously though, idk if it was "$50 neat" for me lol

 

[zipzapsparkle]

Pirahna Plant is more iconic than most of the roster, as well as almost all of the mooted newcomers.

Goomba, koopa, shy guy, boo and Lakitu are more iconic than Piranha plant. Why were they overlooked?

 

[Wigglerman]

Goomba, koopa, shy guy, boo and Lakitu are more iconic than Piranha plant. Why were they overlooked?

What stats do you have to quantify which of the many memorable jobbers of the Mario franchise are, in fact, more iconic that the second or third enemy you encounter in the original game? Goomba, Plant and Koopas are the trifecta of 'iconic' I'd say since you meet these three in the very first level. Lakitu and Boo would be next, Shy Guy is the least iconic of the lot due to his sparcity in main line Mario games (more of a Yoshi game based enemy and only appeared in Mario 2 early on).

However people may feel different and likely do...thus unless we poll the entire damned planet, there is no way you can unironically claim Plant isn't 'iconic enough'.

Goomba was likely overlooked due to having difficulty making a cohesive or even complete move set. Koopa could be done but maybe Sakurai felt plant was more fun to make over Koopa.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Is the Plant iconic? Yes!
Was it more relevant and popular than actual requested Mario characters like Waluigi, Toad, and Geno, prior to its confirmation?

Definitely not. Possibly more relevant than Geno, but definitely not more popular, and definitely not more relevant or popular than Toad and Waluigi. It definitely isn’t even as iconic as Toad, or Goomba and Koopa as others said.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

Since Plant is a hot topic of debate, I feel like I should give my 2 cents.

Every Smash game, there's a joke character. One who, even with other reasons for being added, is there to make people confused. Jigglypuff, Pichu, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, and now Plant. Plant, IMO was a great joke character. Not even people who would try to speculate the oddball pick would call a Piranha Plant getting in. But the good form of the joke is where the positives end, because with all things considered, it's not a good time to have a slot go to a joke character. As you already know, Nintendo newcomers, especially unique ones, are scarce for Ultimate. The reality for many of us is that our most wanted got deconfirmed by an Assist Trophy, or worse, Mii Outfit, or even worse, a png file spirit. It would have been far more permissible if it wasn't that the spotlight for DLC was going to 3rd parties again and that the ones who aren't explicitly deconfirmed (but I think they are implicitly) were more than Euden, Akira/Howard Twins and Byleth. But since we're most likely getting nothing but 3rd parties and aren't going to get another Nintendo character for another 10 years, it's not.

TL;DR Good joke character, but not a good time for a joke character because for the next 10 years, EVERYONE IS DECONFIRMED

 

[Buzzwole]

Its funny that we've reached a point where we're actively hoping for FIRST PARTY characters in Smash Bros.

I hope they haven't completely abandoned the idea of adding more Nintendo characters. There are still a few who really should be there. The roster really feels like its missing Dixie.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Since Plant is a hot topic of debate, I feel like I should give my 2 cents.

Every Smash game, there's a joke character. One who, even with other reasons for being added, is there to make people confused. Jigglypuff, Pichu, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer, and now Plant. Plant, IMO was a great joke character. Not even people who would try to speculate the oddball pick would call a Piranha Plant getting in. But the good form of the joke is where the positives end, because with all things considered, it's not a good time to have a slot go to a joke character. As you already know, Nintendo newcomers, especially unique ones, are scarce for Ultimate. The reality for many of us is that our most wanted got deconfirmed by an Assist Trophy, or worse, Mii Outfit, or even worse, a png file spirit. It would have been far more permissible if it wasn't that the spotlight for DLC was going to 3rd parties again and that the ones who aren't explicitly deconfirmed (but I think they are implicitly) were more than Euden, Akira/Howard Twins and Byleth. But since we're most likely getting nothing but 3rd parties and aren't going to get another Nintendo character for another 10 years, it's not.

TL;DR Good joke character, but not a good time for a joke character because for the next 10 years, EVERYONE IS DECONFIRMED

I agree with your point about it not being a good time for a Joke character, but I just want to add a distinction between Plant and the previous Joke characters we got in the past.

Did we really need one this time though? Would there be a incredibly large amount of people disappointed at the lack of one?
The difference between the Plant and previous “joke” characters is that all of the previous ones represented their own series, filling in a large part of Nintendo that was important to the company’s history, with Duck Hunt being one of the best selling NES titles due to being packaged with the original Super Mario Bros (in a single cartridge no less, meaning everyone who played Super Mario Bros would also have Duck Hunt there ready to boot as well) and the Dog being especially notorious among gaming culture at large due to his laugh, Wii Fit/Wii Fit Plus (and the casual Wii series in general) being some of the best selling games of all time, ROB at least partially helping to save the NES (and possibly the industry as a whole) after the video game market crash, and Game and Watch being Nintendo’s first console and pretty much the earliest Nintendo hardware to gain success in the video game industry. If Nintendo was a giant puzzle, each of these fill in a different essential piece.

Not only does Plant NOT do this, but it’s part of a series that is already pretty well fed in terms of representation. And even if they had to have another Mario character, at the VERY LEAST they could have picked a character SOMEONE was asking for like Waluigi, Geno, or Captain Toad/Toadette.

If they had added in someone like the Mach Rider or Takamaru as the Joke/Retro/Unorthodox character this time around, I could at least be somewhat understanding on the basis that they do fill in a hole that was missing in Nintendo’s history.

As someone who loves the wacky characters Smash always adds, I was disappointed at the lack of one. Piranha Plant doesn't satisfy that quota for me; it feels almost like somebody was trying to emulate that kind of pick but didn't understand what made it work.

Game & Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer. All of those characters were completely unexpected, to the point of not even being on the radar as characters for many, but as has been said they all bring something new beyond themselves to Smash: Their own universes. Music, stages, trophies/stickers/Spirits. They take new franchises and induct them into the Smash pantheon.

Plant does nothing of the sort. It brings nothing that couldn't come with anyone else.

 

[smashkirby]

I agree with your point about it not being a good time for a Joke character, but I just want to add a distinction between Plant and the previous Joke characters we got in the past.

Thank you. You pretty summed up my feelings over the Plant in Smash Ultimate. I find it fun to play as, but... I don't know. I feel we could have gotten a 'WTF' character that added a whole new universe to Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

I played the demo, really good game. Shame it got stuck with that $50 pricetag, it would have done great if it was cheaper.

Yeah I played the demo too and it was pretty neat. As expressed previously though, idk if it was "$50 neat" for me lol

that price tag is probably what lead to its down fall

 

[Zero Suit Violet]

Hey hey!
Yesterday I made a fan roster out of characters I would personally like in (So completely 100 percent bias roster), knowing that most of my MW are 1st party, would it be revelant to the conversation to share it here or not?
I prefer asking before dumping something like that without warning haha

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

My biggest problem with Piranha Plant hasn't been confirmed yet. I want to know if Piranha Plant ends up being the last character added to an existing franchise. If so, it's going to be regarded as a blunder; it'll basically mean they wasted a slot on a cruel joke.

And before anyone says slots don't mean anything, that's blatantly false in this context. Ultimate's base roster of newcomers was extremely shallow and they only put in a few new characters (some of which were not even Nintendo) with the rest being echoes. DLC gives an opportunity to add more characters, but so far the ones they've revealed have all been outside guests. The "new worlds" quote therefore scares me into thinking there's a possibility the rest will entirely be guests. Which either means that Piranha Plant is the only first-party DLC, or the last base roster addition. Both possible perspectives don't look pretty. It somewhat implies they coded a Nintendo fighter nobody asked for and then used that as an excuse to overlook any requests for old franchise additions in future DLC.

 

[fogbadge]

Hey hey!
Yesterday I made a fan roster out of characters I would personally like in (So completely 100 percent bias roster), knowing that most of my MW are 1st party, would it be revelant to the conversation to share it here or not?
I prefer asking before dumping something like that without warning haha

go ahead, a lot of us have posted or own rosters in various places

 

[Zero Suit Violet]

go ahead, a lot of us have posted or own rosters in various places

Oh ! I see, well, I'll go for it then !

Alright, so, as I said before, this Roster is COMPLETLY Biased, and in no ways trying to be realistic, just my personal wants thrown into a 108 characters roster, here are the adds
Mario Series :
Fawful
Dimentio

Luigi's Mansion Series :
King Boo
E,Gaad

Pokemon Series :
Gardevoir
Deoxys
Dusknoir

Zelda Series :
Midna
Vaati
Tetra
Spirit Zelda

Kirby Series :
Bandana
Dee
Susie
Magolor

Metroid Series :
Rundas

Star Fox Series :
Slippy

Mother Series :
Masked Man
Porky

Wario Ware Series :
Ashley

Kid Icarus Series :
Viridi
Hades

Fire Emblem Series :
Edelguard

Xenoblade Series :
Rex & Pyra

Splatoon Series :
DJ Octavio
Squid Sisters

Ever Oasis Series :
Tethi

Retro Series :
Lip (Panel De Pon)

Third Party Series :
Agnes (Bravely Default)
Blanc (HyperDimension Neptunia)
Laharl (Disgaea)
Evan (Ni No Kuni)

 

[UserKev]

PP bash discussion is really intriguing. Maybe let Sakurai have his personal pick since he worked on the game? I totally agree that it should have never been placed over a price tag. I'd easily have PP over another Fire Emblem or Tri-force incarnation.

 

[Lenidem]

Maybe let Sakurai have his personal pick since he worked on the game?

Maybe let us have an opinion since we bought the game?

 

[UserKev]

Maybe let us have an opinion since we bought the game?

If you were Sakurai and added your personal pick to Smash, there are people who will disagree. You can have your opinion, but its so tiring by this point. How about Sakurai not have added any of your wanted(s) in the game?

 

[Turtlar]

Personally, I feel that Piranha Plant fills a very important role in the roster, the joke character. Like other joke characters before it, it had a bizarre, but very fun playstyle and was completely out of left field. I absolutely love the likes of Mr. G&W, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, and Piranha Plant continues the tradition perfectly IMO.

As for the first party characters, the only one who I think needs to be in Ultimate is Dixie Kong, but I can still think of a few who I would like to see as well.

Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, and Medusa are a few I've been rooting for, as well as getting some unrepresented IPs, like Andy/Sami, Isaac, and Chibi-Robo.

There are two characters who I've had a change of heart on as well. I've previously stated that I'm tired of FE characters, but I would be willing to make the exception for Edelgard, for a number of reasons.

The other is Waluigi, and it's not that I've suddenly had a change of heart and am now a big Waluigi fan, but rather I think he's an ideal character to end DLC on. As an avid fan of Wooden Plank Studio, it would be nice to see Waluigi finally sneak in at the last second.

Tldr:
Dixie Kong
Bandana Dee
Skull Kid
Medusa
Andy/Sami
Isaac
Chibi Robo
Edelgard
Waluigi*

*only as the final DLC character

 

[UserKev]

I'm completely on the side of more first party additions, why I'm happy PP IS at least a first party addition. My boy Wart is a newer want I now want to see and I'm super hyped about it.

 

[fogbadge]

Oh ! I see, well, I'll go for it then !
View attachment 242117
Alright, so, as I said before, this Roster is COMPLETLY Biased, and in no ways trying to be realistic, just my personal wants thrown into a 108 characters roster, here are the adds
Mario Series :
Fawful
Dimentio

Luigi's Mansion Series :
King Boo
E,Gaad

Pokemon Series :
Gardevoir
Deoxys
Dusknoir

Zelda Series :
Midna
Vaati
Tetra
Spirit Zelda

Kirby Series :
Bandana
Dee
Susie
Magolor

Metroid Series :
Rundas

Star Fox Series :
Slippy

Mother Series :
Masked Man
Porky

Wario Ware Series :
Ashley

Kid Icarus Series :
Viridi
Hades

Fire Emblem Series :
Edelguard

Xenoblade Series :
Rex & Pyra

Splatoon Series :
DJ Octavio
Squid Sisters

Ever Oasis Series :
Tethi

Retro Series :
Lip (Panel De Pon)

Third Party Series :
Agnes (Bravely Default)
Blanc (HyperDimension Neptunia)
Laharl (Disgaea)
Evan (Ni No Kuni)

not bad some there id not be happy with but most of them are already in the game, kudo for anges btw