The First Party general support thread

[Arthur97]

Yeah, a Pokemon that's more unique than a generic wrestler and didn't struggle to become a fan favorite.

Fire Emblem fans aren't stopping just because Fates controversy goes outside of Smash. Geno/Waluigi fans aren't stopping just because of Piranha Plant.

Doesn't mean FE should get another one. Pokemon is already massively represented.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Eh, we've already got a Pokemon. Give us something a little more unique.

Agreed. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu being back was already really generous for Ultimate just on the virtue of "Everyone is here". With Incineroar, Pokemon has technically had a net gain of 4 characters from Smash 4 to Ultimate, and its already guaranteed a newcomer spot in the next game anyway.

I think we can make room for other 1st Parties franchises that need it more, especially if said choice would just be another pick of the day Shillmon, rather than an actual fan favorite.

 

[Arthur97]

Besides, even Mario not only didn't get a newcomer in Brawl, it lost Doc. Really, it wouldn't hurt Pokemon to not get DLC. Seriously people. How about Zelda which hasn't had a newcomer in two games? Or Kriby which is likewise? Or DK which is still at three fighters? Or something more obscure like Xenoblade? There are plenty of better options than yet another flavor of the month Pokemon.

 

[Quillion]

I just want to warn everyone that just getting newcomers isn't enough, they need to add quality of a franchise's representation, not just quantity. Focusing on number of reps isn't going to cut it.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

A thread calling out for more first parties that is going against Plant, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem in Smash...

So it's really just people wanting their specific picks as opposed to first parties in general I see.

I've got no issue with who you like or dislike, but the entire genesis of "more first parties in Smash" falls flat on its face with that sort of talk and sours the whole point of your message. When I say I want more third parties, I'm legitimately open to all third parties (except Fortnite, but that's my extremely, extremely biased dislike running there, everybody gets one). I just want new series. If Nintendo is willing to give us new series, I'm all for it, but I just don't care about going deeper into any series we already have representatives of. I'll admit there's a couple of Toad and Dixie Kong puzzle pieces missing of the massive mosaic of a roster Ultimate already has, but I'm just so apathetic to existing franchises. I'm most interested in whatever path gets us further in that goal, and that just happens to be third parties given how little of Nintendo's series aren't in here (one-offs aside).

 

[Mushroomguy12]

A thread calling out for more first parties that is going against Plant, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem in Smash...

So it's really just people wanting their specific picks as opposed to first parties in general I see.

I've got no issue with who you like or dislike, but the entire genesis of "more first parties in Smash" falls flat on its face with that sort of talk and sours the whole point of your message. When I say I want more third parties, I'm legitimately open to all third parties (except Fortnite, but that's my extremely, extremely biased dislike running there, everybody gets one).

Well, we are allowed to have preferences of our 1st Parties just like you are allowed to dislike Fortnite. By your logic, you are equally hypocritical for hating Fortnite because how does that not sour your message of being "open to all 3rd Parties"?

 

[GoodGrief741]

A thread calling out for more first parties that is going against Plant, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem in Smash...

So it's really just people wanting their specific picks as opposed to first parties in general I see.

I've got no issue with who you like or dislike, but the entire genesis of "more first parties in Smash" falls flat on its face with that sort of talk and sours the whole point of your message. When I say I want more third parties, I'm legitimately open to all third parties (except Fortnite, but that's my extremely, extremely biased dislike running there, everybody gets one). I just want new series. If Nintendo is willing to give us new series, I'm all for it, but I just don't care about going deeper into any series we already have representatives of. I'll admit there's a couple of Toad and Dixie Kong puzzle pieces missing of the massive mosaic of a roster Ultimate already has, but I'm just so apathetic to existing franchises. I'm most interested in whatever path gets us further in that goal, and that just happens to be third parties given how little of Nintendo's series aren't in here (one-offs aside).

People are allowed to dislike certain characters, I fail to see your point. Why do you get to dislike one franchise but people here can't dislike one character or the number of characters for one franchise?

 

[NintenRob]

We should hear more to who we want though, this is a support thread, keep the negativity to a minimum.


Also Plant is the second best dlc fighter so far, the only one who got me excited was Banjo (the only third party I ever wanted)

 

[Zinith]

A thread calling out for more first parties that is going against Plant, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem in Smash...

So it's really just people wanting their specific picks as opposed to first parties in general I see.

I've got no issue with who you like or dislike, but the entire genesis of "more first parties in Smash" falls flat on its face with that sort of talk and sours the whole point of your message. When I say I want more third parties, I'm legitimately open to all third parties (except Fortnite, but that's my extremely, extremely biased dislike running there, everybody gets one). I just want new series. If Nintendo is willing to give us new series, I'm all for it, but I just don't care about going deeper into any series we already have representatives of. I'll admit there's a couple of Toad and Dixie Kong puzzle pieces missing of the massive mosaic of a roster Ultimate already has, but I'm just so apathetic to existing franchises. I'm most interested in whatever path gets us further in that goal, and that just happens to be third parties given how little of Nintendo's series aren't in here (one-offs aside).

Well ****, I guess we should pack up and lock this thread because Eric here destroyed us with facts and logic. We must like all potential first-party picks for this thread to work. And because he likes all potential third-party picks that means every third-party supporter feels the same way this gateke-- I mean, Smash speculator does. Every single Steve supporter is on board for Shantae because the third-party supporters are such a tight-knit community and they NEVER have hang-ups with ANY other third-party character gets in.

 

[Arthur97]

Plant seriously was amazing, but it's more of a late entrant than planned DLC.

You know, I think Dark Meta Knight could be implemented without being an echo too (see Star Allies), and a Rick, Koo, and Kine trio would be cool for a fighter too. You know, if you want Kirby alternatives to Bandana Dee. I'd personally be fine with all three.

DK, likewise, has three contenders for me in Cranky, Dixie, and Funky (who might could utilize some of the weapons from DK64 other than the popguns).

Potentially a less popular choice, I kind of want OOT (adult, obviously)/TP Links as an echo.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Well, we are allowed to have preferences of our 1st Parties just like you are allowed to dislike Fortnite. By your logic, you are equally hypocritical for hating Fortnite because how does that not sour your message of being "open to all 3rd Parties"?

I'll own that one actually. It's just I come to a first party support thread and the last two pages are people talking specifically about the first parties that they didn't like and it just makes the core ideas feel more hollow and like there's an "acceptable" idea of first parties in Smash and an "unacceptable" idea, and specifically with some of the more well known Nintendo characters (Piranha Plant is well known, Three Houses is on fire, and Pokemon is just always massive and wide appealing). It's no different than the rest of speculation in that regard as it's not really "first party" as much as "I want these characters in and they happen to trend towards first parties." I'm guilty of it too to a certain degree as I've stated I'm in this for new franchises of pretty much all shapes and sizes. But it's the people going well, not this, not this, definitely not this that just doesn't really work alongside the more specific push some people are making for first parties.

I guess it's just really damn hard for me to get this argument for first parties when things like Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, Pac-Man, etc. are all such essential or important parts of Nintendo's history that I just cannot for the life of me make a big enough distinction for it to matter. The only ones that don't fit are Joker, Snake (kind of), and Terry (kind of). It's such a small portion of the roster that really diverges from Nintendo based franchises and characters to begin with that the complains just kind of fall on deaf ears in my case. I just don't see it and that's my core issue with the first vs third party divides. They just feel like more arbirtary lines of first vs third party in most instances, and the clinging to the "purity" of the first party roster just seems so odd in the face of a (currently) 67:14 ratio where two of those 14 are honorary Nintendo characters to begin with (Bayonetta and Banjo & Kazooie) and several of the rest might as well be. In the grand scheme of Smash as a series, it just doesn't really connect with me that this minoirty of characters growing into a slightly larger minority is a problem... Especially when this might be the only opportunity to get all these third parties on board in the same game, whereas first parties aren't under such restriction and could all conceivably continue returning no matter what. That's really where it sticks more than anywhere else for me and where my otherwise more ambivalent stance on first parties turns more into direct opposition.

I apologize for being a hypocrite. I had a certain intention to post something and it got mangled as I was typing, and here we are. Doesn't make it better I know, but know it's meant to be genuine. I just have a genuinely hard time getting around this backlash against third party focus. I love Nintendo to ****ing death and many of its niches, but there's also such an amazing and wide gaming industry out there to be inclusive of too!

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'll own that one actually. It's just I come to a first party support thread and the last two pages are people talking specifically about the first parties that they didn't like and it just makes the core ideas feel more hollow and like there's an "acceptable" idea of first parties in Smash and an "unacceptable" idea, and specifically with some of the more well known Nintendo characters (Piranha Plant is well known, Three Houses is on fire, and Pokemon is just always massive and wide appealing). It's no different than the rest of speculation in that regard as it's not really "first party" as much as "I want these characters in and they happen to trend towards first parties." I'm guilty of it too to a certain degree as I've stated I'm in this for new franchises of pretty much all shapes and sizes. But it's the people going well, not this, not this, definitely not this that just doesn't really work alongside the more specific push some people are making for first parties.

I guess it's just really damn hard for me to get this argument for first parties when things like Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, Pac-Man, etc. are all such essential or important parts of Nintendo's history that I just cannot for the life of me make a big enough distinction for it to matter. The only ones that don't fit are Joker, Snake (kind of), and Terry (kind of). It's such a small portion of the roster that really diverges from Nintendo based franchises and characters to begin with that the complains just kind of fall on deaf ears in my case. I just don't see it and that's my core issue with the first vs third party divides. They just feel like more arbirtary lines of first vs third party in most instances, and the clinging to the "purity" of the first party roster just seems so odd in the face of a (currently) 67:14 ratio where two of those 14 are honorary Nintendo characters to begin with (Bayonetta and Banjo & Kazooie) and several of the rest might as well be. In the grand scheme of Smash as a series, it just doesn't really connect with me that this minoirty of characters growing into a slightly larger minority is a problem... Especially when this might be the only opportunity to get all these third parties on board in the same game, whereas first parties aren't under such restriction and could all conceivably continue returning no matter what. That's really where it sticks more than anywhere else for me and where my otherwise more ambivalent stance on first parties turns more into direct opposition.

I apologize for being a hypocrite. I had a certain intention to post something and it got mangled as I was typing, and here we are. Doesn't make it better I know, but know it's meant to be genuine. I just have a genuinely hard time getting around this backlash against third party focus. I love Nintendo to ****ing death and many of its niches, but there's also such an amazing and wide gaming industry out there to be inclusive of too!

Seems like a very big misconception you have. I for one don't mind the third parties we're getting, I just feel like first parties are being ignored and I would like that to change. I like Nintendo-adjacent third party characters like Mega Man, Banjo-Kazooie, Simon, etc. I also like third parties with less of a Nintendo link but a strong history like Snake, Cloud, et al. And I also like Nintendo characters like Mario, Samus, Link, etc. I see no reason why we can't get all three (spare me the arguments, I've already heard yours and you've already heard mine), and sadly we haven't been getting characters of that third class. It's a matter of squeaky wheel getting the grease.

Also remember - we are not a hivemind. Maybe some people here want Smash to be only-Nintendo. Some might feel like Smash should be mainly Nintendo-centric, and that some third parties crossed the line of acceptability. Some, like me, might want Nintendo newcomers to keep outnumbering third party newcomers. And some might just want at least one Nintendo character in this Nintendo game. But be fair and talk to us like individuals. One person not wanting the same as another doesn't make us all hypocrites any more than you not liking any character makes you against third party characters.

 

[Zinith]

Let me help you get it EricTheGamerman

Imagine the days before Snake was revealed for Brawl. Every single character in Smash was first-party and and the idea that it was a "Nintendo crossover" was prevalent. There was no PR statement stating otherwise. And to top it all off, a TON of potential characters and IPs still didn't get their shot. In other words, "Smash = Nintendo"

Did that make it any less wrong or annoying for third-party supporters to have to defer to the dominate first-party picks? I wasn't around for those days, but I bet that was a common sentiment. "Oh you silly Sonic fan, Wario or Ridley or Tom Nook or King Dedede etc. must get in before your precious blue blur." I know the demand was there thanks to that famous April Fools joke. If you were a third-party supporter then, could you be frustrated?

Well now it's the same thing but in the opposite direction. All of those quotes from Sakurai and Nintendo (despite the fact that art is not dictated by the creator's words or intent but by how the art establishes itself aka "Death of the Author", something George Lucas and J.K. Rowling desperately tried to fight *cough*) and the way Fighter's Pass has gone has emboldened third-party support and now the same gatekeeping habits of yesteryear manifest in a new host. No first-party supporter should be stopped just because you have an idea of what Smash should be (hell, not even Three Houses or Pokemon supporters).

 

[Quillion]

EricTheGamerman : We're against shilling newer Fire Emblem and Pokémon characters over the older, actually iconic ones, not against all of them in general.

 

[fogbadge]

so chibi-robo anyone?

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

so chibi-robo anyone?

Hell yeah, the poor guy doesn't get enough love nowadays

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I guess it's just really damn hard for me to get this argument for first parties when things like Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie, Pac-Man, etc. are all such essential or important parts of Nintendo's history that I just cannot for the life of me make a big enough distinction for it to matter. The only ones that don't fit are Joker, Snake (kind of), and Terry (kind of). It's such a small portion of the roster that really diverges from Nintendo based franchises and characters to begin with that the complains just kind of fall on deaf ears in my case. I just don't see it and that's my core issue with the first vs third party divides. They just feel like more arbirtary lines of first vs third party in most instances, and the clinging to the "purity" of the first party roster just seems so odd in the face of a (currently) 67:14 ratio where two of those 14 are honorary Nintendo characters to begin with (Bayonetta and Banjo & Kazooie) and several of the rest might as well be. In the grand scheme of Smash as a series, it just doesn't really connect with me that this minoirty of characters growing into a slightly larger minority is a problem... Especially when this might be the only opportunity to get all these third parties on board in the same game, whereas first parties aren't under such restriction and could all conceivably continue returning no matter what. That's really where it sticks more than anywhere else for me and where my otherwise more ambivalent stance on first parties turns more into direct opposition.

To be fair, there is more of a connection to Nintendo games with guests than not, but the characters that don't follow this rule are often the ones that suffer from looking the most biased. Remember, when Cloud was revealed years back, Final Fantasy VII was still Sony exclusive in the same vein as Joker; I couldn't even convince myself it was a Final Fantasy rep at the time because the crossover was clearly VII. I guarantee you if the emphasis on all veterans returning and the Switch port weren't announced I wouldn't be tolerating Cloud, although that probably is a personal problem.

And sure, in terms of first-party veterans there's more leniency with returns in future games, but what about potential first-party newcomers? I think that's much more of a restrictive case because there are implications in Smash that suggest if a Nintendo character doesn't make a time schedule they miss the mark. ARMS and Xenoblade 2 suffered the most from this, with both (more the former) in the possibility of never getting a rep in future. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, ROB and Duck Hunt are exceptions, but they all fall under retro gimmicks and therefore have instant access to nostalgia pandering. The only outlier here is K. Rool, and that may only have happened due to intense fan demand. Most other popular mid-ground characters from Nintendo franchises have a grim outlook in terms of getting in.

Ultimate was remarkably short wait for another Smash game, with Brawl and Smash 4 taking YEARS to unveil. I can't afford to wait for a possibility to get something exciting in future when I already grew irate with waiting in the Smash 4 days.

(Sorry if I wasn't supposed to quote that, I was more using it as a launchpad to make my point.)

 

[Arthur97]

Alright, so let's say we get a Kirby fighter, who would you most want? I'm kind of biased to my Dark Meta Knight since I've thought up so many ideas for him (making him more representative of Meta Knight/sword Kirby from the games and his Star Allies appearance), but Plant also really made me open up to Bandana Dee.

 

[Oddball]

Alright, so let's say we get a Kirby fighter, who would you most want? I'm kind of biased to my Dark Meta Knight since I've thought up so many ideas for him (making him more representative of Meta Knight/sword Kirby from the games and his Star Allies appearance), but Plant also really made me open up to Bandana Dee.

Out of all the possible Kirby characters, Adeleine is the one I'd most look forward to.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I've got no issue with who you like or dislike, but the entire genesis of "more first parties in Smash" falls flat on its face with that sort of talk and sours the whole point of your message. When I say I want more third parties, I'm legitimately open to all third parties (except Fortnite, but that's my extremely, extremely biased dislike running there, everybody gets one). I just want new series. If Nintendo is willing to give us new series, I'm all for it, but I just don't care about going deeper into any series we already have representatives of. I'll admit there's a couple of Toad and Dixie Kong puzzle pieces missing of the massive mosaic of a roster Ultimate already has, but I'm just so apathetic to existing franchises. I'm most interested in whatever path gets us further in that goal, and that just happens to be third parties given how little of Nintendo's series aren't in here (one-offs aside).

I hope Rhythm Heaven/Paradise could be at least "just one more" new Nintendo fighter universe brought to Ultimate through DLC to go with Splatoon, considering it seemed to be the one new universe planned but scrapped for the last game/Smash in general that we know of. Maybe the one big one left at least in terms of having some kind of proper on-stage representation? Yes its universe is represented currently already, yet through the most spirits for a non-Fighter and only three songs, but, well I mean it doesn't have an AT or Mii Costume despite everybody else getting that suggestion of playing as the character, including ones that unlike Rhythm, aren't technically still active. I guess they could also just add any new songs to the Others section the current three are in, even if it means allowing for Megalovania to be played on a Rhythm stage lol

If the fifth character is third party, either the Plant would have been a bonus DLC character that doubled as the sole first party DLC character they knew they were going to do before it was decided they were going to do more, or a leftover from the base game meaning Nintendo truly had no intention of making a first party any of the brand new DLC they knew they were gonna do (with the asterix of Banjo formerly being a Nintendo-owned character, is that correct? Well, I guess he could be seen as it then?). Smash 4 had Corrin in that regard, though I have no idea if that had anything resembling an "at least one new Nintendo DLC quota". Yeah we have lots of first party in the base game, but not at least one other new Nintendo franchise for a fighter as even the surprise character of this game happened to come from an existing one. If there's such an obligatory first party, it makes sense to come after the bigger third parties like how the obligatory Pokemon was saved for last after the more interesting picks. But if there's not I guess Nintendo was fine with closing the doors for their own characters with Piranha Plant.

 

[UserKev]

Since Mimikyu, Ghirahim and especially Doc Louis and Wart are becoming more never ever picks, Cranky Kong is my last want. I really want to move on with my life. In terms of newcomers outside of Nintendo, I'm happy I managed to limit my wants ultimately down to two icons and I actually feel complete. Its amazing.

 

[Arthur97]

Plant is almost certainly leftovers given it actually has a guidance.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

Plant is almost certainly leftovers given it actually has a guidance.

Yeah, and that's why I believe there's still a small chance that we get 1 final Nintendo character, but probably not, since I very confidently believe that spirits deconfirm and the only characters that aren't truly deconfirmed are Euden and the Howard Twins. I don't have much hope for either happening, since 1: pretty much everyone is deconfirmed, 2: They can just deconfirm Euden and Howard Twins with a Spirit and/or Mii Outfit 3: Sakurai's and Furukawa's quotes, which I've already gone over.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not as convinced spirits deconfirm. Especially with a new, potentially initially unplanned wave. Plus, with someone like Geno (technically third party, but he is still a Mario character at least) being super popular and Square already in, it might be the best opportunity to get him. Especially since Square seems like the most likely to bail in the future.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not as convinced spirits deconfirm. Especially with a new, potentially initially unplanned wave. Plus, with someone like Geno (technically third party, but he is still a Mario character at least) being super popular and Square already in, it might be the best opportunity to get him. Especially since Square seems like the most likely to bail in the future.

What I think happened is that Ultimate's first Fighters Pass was a lot more planned ahead of time than Smash 4's DLC. This is why none of the FP characters are ones that already had spirits, and Rex could be too new for one wave of DLC but not Corrin for the other.

 

[Arthur97]

What I think happened is that Ultimate's first Fighters Pass was a lot more planned ahead of time than Smash 4's DLC. This is why none of the FP characters are ones that already had spirits, and Rex could be too new for one wave of DLC but not Corrin for the other.

Rex's deconfirmation (probably) is quite possibly the worst. Like, "he was too early in development" even though they talking about DLC. DLC which apparently has little production overlap meaning they may not have even started on #5 for example, so you could fit him in.

The third parties not being represented is also much less likely than first parties already being represented by spirits. Like, the odds of a Banjo and Kazooie spirit seems less likely than a Dixie spirit. I also think the planning aspect means less with this next wave. Besides, limiting themselves in such a manner seems like a bad move, but, then again, one might argue ignoring their core fanbase is as well.

 

[Calamitas]

I feel that some Spirits may be disconfirmations, but definitely not all of them. Like, Spirits that are placed in vital spots of/are prominently featured in World of Light, those I feel are more less disconfirmed. Others, which are more randomly placed in there, might have a better chance. And then those that don't make any sort of appearance in World of Light, those probably have the best shot of still making it in.
All talking about base game Spirits, of course.

And wouldn't you know it, Xenoblade Chronicles X doesn't have any Spirits in World of Light. . .

 

[Arthur97]

Probably because that game wasn't very popular. If they picked X over 2, then that would probably not go over very well.

Actually, with definitive coming out, I wouldn't mind getting Fiora.

 

[Calamitas]

Probably because that game wasn't very popular. If they picked X over 2, then that would probably not go over very well.

Actually, with definitive coming out, I wouldn't mind getting Fiora.

Buddy. They don't give a damn about how popular the game was, considering that they have zero issue with getting Other M stuff. And you can't tell me that out of the hundreds of Spirits featured in WoL, there was just no room anywhere for any of the five Spirits from X. Besides, saying that it "wasn't very popular" is just flat-out overblowing the negative reaction there was. And at any rate, 2 is lucky to have gotten the amount of content it did, considering that other games that released on the Switch already have less.

 

[Arthur97]

Buddy. They don't give a damn about how popular the game was, considering that they have zero issue with getting Other M stuff. And you can't tell me that out of the hundreds of Spirits featured in WoL, there was just no room anywhere for any of the five Spirits from X. Besides, saying that it "wasn't very popular" is just flat-out overblowing the negative reaction there was. And at any rate, 2 is lucky to have gotten the amount of content it did, considering that other games that released on the Switch already have less.

There's a difference between picking a design, and choosing the least popular game from a less than mainstream franchise for DLC. Have you ever considered that they just don't want to acknowledge the game for whatever reason? The idea that it of all the options is DLC seems far fetched at least.

Also, you do know, wasn't very popular isn't the same as hated scum of the Earth, right? It wasn't very popular, especially compared to 1 and 2. That's just how it is. It fell short on the story which is something that was very important to the first game, and it understandably fell short.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Alright, so let's say we get a Kirby fighter, who would you most want? I'm kind of biased to my Dark Meta Knight since I've thought up so many ideas for him (making him more representative of Meta Knight/sword Kirby from the games and his Star Allies appearance), but Plant also really made me open up to Bandana Dee.

Bandana Dee gang for life

 

[Calamitas]

There's a difference between picking a design, and choosing the least popular game from a less than mainstream franchise for DLC. Have you ever considered that they just don't want to acknowledge the game for whatever reason? The idea that it of all the options is DLC seems far fetched at least.

Also, you do know, wasn't very popular isn't the same as hated scum of the Earth, right? It wasn't very popular, especially compared to 1 and 2. That's just how it is. It fell short on the story which is something that was very important to the first game, and it understandably fell short.

Sure. The crossover platform fighting game that is still primarily focussed on Nintendo history just has to go out of its way to not acknowledge one of the Wii U's major titles. despite including content from it in the first place. Sounds totally reasonable.
And I wasn't talking about just Samus' design, but other things such as music and Spirits. As far as I know, the soundtrack of Other M isn't popular by any means, either, and yet three songs still made it in.

Bandana Dee gang for life

What he said.

 

[Geno Boost]

oh so its seems people still want 1st party characters
most people characters wants are mostly 3rd parties nowdays
i feel sometimes that Bandana dee and Waluigi are the only 1st party characters requested nowdays

 

[PhantomShab]

A thread calling out for more first parties that is going against Plant, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem in Smash...

Yes this is what not hanging around in a hivemind looks like.

Potentially a less popular choice, I kind of want OOT (adult, obviously)/TP Links as an echo.

It may be a 4th Link but tbh I'd main him. Hate what they did to the regular Link in this game.

Alright, so let's say we get a Kirby fighter, who would you most want? I'm kind of biased to my Dark Meta Knight since I've thought up so many ideas for him (making him more representative of Meta Knight/sword Kirby from the games and his Star Allies appearance), but Plant also really made me open up to Bandana Dee.

Adeleine. Kirby's Dreamland 3 and Kirby 64 are 2 of my favorite Kirby games. Only thing holding her back is that she doesn't come from the 4 Kirby games that actually exist in Sakurai's eyes.

 

[Turtlar]

Less fighting, more bandwagoning.

- Geno (If being owned by Square disqualifies him, then Birdo)
- Dixie
- Skull Kid
- Omega Metroid
- Bandana Dee
- Poochy
- Krystal
- Rhydon (It was the first Pokemon designed, one of Giovanni's aces, and is a personal favorite.)
- Goroh
- Porky
- Edelgard
- Medusa
- Cpt. Syrup
- Louie, King of Bugs
- Tom Nook
- Doc Louis
- Elma
- Octolings?
- DK Jr.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Seems like a very big misconception you have. I for one don't mind the third parties we're getting, I just feel like first parties are being ignored and I would like that to change. I like Nintendo-adjacent third party characters like Mega Man, Banjo-Kazooie, Simon, etc. I also like third parties with less of a Nintendo link but a strong history like Snake, Cloud, et al. And I also like Nintendo characters like Mario, Samus, Link, etc. I see no reason why we can't get all three (spare me the arguments, I've already heard yours and you've already heard mine), and sadly we haven't been getting characters of that third class. It's a matter of squeaky wheel getting the grease.

Also remember - we are not a hivemind. Maybe some people here want Smash to be only-Nintendo. Some might feel like Smash should be mainly Nintendo-centric, and that some third parties crossed the line of acceptability. Some, like me, might want Nintendo newcomers to keep outnumbering third party newcomers. And some might just want at least one Nintendo character in this Nintendo game. But be fair and talk to us like individuals. One person not wanting the same as another doesn't make us all hypocrites any more than you not liking any character makes you against third party characters.

I'll admit that I was tired and being harsher than I should have last night when commenting on affairs and being unfair in generalizing. A lot of the same opinions regarding this first party mentality are some of my least favorite parts of the fan base and I have been known to lump those people together due to bad experience in the past. People calling big name third parties "literal whos" when there is a demonstrably massive sales evidence to the contrary and other such examples of the "Smash Bubble" in full swing have just made me wary of the first party pushing side of the fan base. And to be honest, I just don't always see the "balance" side of things with the greater overall numbers of the roster. 14-15 playable characters out of 81-82 just isn't enough to concern me that Smash is somehow changing. I think the "doom and gloom" aspect of the lack of first party DLC is just as bad as that of people lamenting the lack of females in this Fighter's Pass. It's just 5 fighters in a row, we've had gaps before and while I don't expect Nintendo to change their focus from third parties, I also expect we'll see a first party or two before it's all said and done like I expect we'll see female fighters join in further DLC. My argument has always been centered at the idea of third parties making more sense for Nintendo and thus comprise the majority of Smash's speculation as opposed to a condemnation of the characters not in Smash or first party.

Let me help you get it EricTheGamerman

Imagine the days before Snake was revealed for Brawl. Every single character in Smash was first-party and and the idea that it was a "Nintendo crossover" was prevalent. There was no PR statement stating otherwise. And to top it all off, a TON of potential characters and IPs still didn't get their shot. In other words, "Smash = Nintendo"

Did that make it any less wrong or annoying for third-party supporters to have to defer to the dominate first-party picks? I wasn't around for those days, but I bet that was a common sentiment. "Oh you silly Sonic fan, Wario or Ridley or Tom Nook or King Dedede etc. must get in before your precious blue blur." I know the demand was there thanks to that famous April Fools joke. If you were a third-party supporter then, could you be frustrated?

Well now it's the same thing but in the opposite direction. All of those quotes from Sakurai and Nintendo (despite the fact that art is not dictated by the creator's words or intent but by how the art establishes itself aka "Death of the Author", something George Lucas and J.K. Rowling desperately tried to fight *cough*) and the way Fighter's Pass has gone has emboldened third-party support and now the same gatekeeping habits of yesteryear manifest in a new host. No first-party supporter should be stopped just because you have an idea of what Smash should be (hell, not even Three Houses or Pokemon supporters).

I wouldn't quite say there are a ton of potential IPs. There are a bunch of one-offs with no support base and no future with Nintendo, and quite frankly most of those characters are not great DLC options. Like Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven are probably the biggest two series left for Nintendo to include, and that speaks to where we're at with first parties. Dixie Kong and Toad are the biggest we have left for individual fighter additions, and that sort of thing again speaks to how much Smash has already done in including characters.

I'm not really trying to stop speculation on first party newcomers, I just wholly disagree that they're likely beyond maybe one or two options and I think third parties make more sense as inclusions. That's not stopping speculation, that's people just being not interested in them once the board opened up in terms of options. I'm not interested in talking about first parties all that much, and many people share that thought. We can occasionally push back harder than we should and we're humans with flaws, but it's mostly just been people less interested in at this point, which you have to admit, makes a lot of sense given what we're working with in terms of who is even left first party wise. There just aren't many Nintendo characters that have that larger and wide appeal left, and they just don't excite as many people in the same way that even Ridley could.

Again, I'm trying to stay away from too many generalizations, but like, it feels super odd for people ot rail against Three Houses when its one of the most beloved Fire Emblem games in ages and has become a popular option for many people. First parties can't just come from dead franchises and ignored characters, they have to be relevant to Nintendo's vision and be compelling DLC options that can stand on their own. If your push is for first party DLC, it seems odd for people to against popular options that reach a lot of people. Sure, that may be your preferences, but if your goal is more first parties in Smash, that just seems like an essential part of it and something that should also be supported as those picks can still go beyond the "Smash Bubble."

Also, hell no to "death of the author." Death of the author started as an extremely efficient way to teach people en masse during the early 20th century and kept the focus on the "text" because there wasn't more time to learn detailed authorial backgrounds and was an attempt to turn art criticism into a science. It's just one way of interpreting texts and art, and I think it's an extremely limited and ultimately unfulfilling way to interpret works of art. Art does reflect the creator and all of the circumstances surrounding its creation, so I respectfully do not agree with any notions of "death of the author" as being all that relevant of a topic to bring up.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'll admit that I was tired and being harsher than I should have last night when commenting on affairs and being unfair in generalizing. A lot of the same opinions regarding this first party mentality are some of my least favorite parts of the fan base and I have been known to lump those people together due to bad experience in the past. People calling big name third parties "literal whos" when there is a demonstrably massive sales evidence to the contrary and other such examples of the "Smash Bubble" in full swing have just made me wary of the first party pushing side of the fan base. And to be honest, I just don't always see the "balance" side of things with the greater overall numbers of the roster. 14-15 playable characters out of 81-82 just isn't enough to concern me that Smash is somehow changing. I think the "doom and gloom" aspect of the lack of first party DLC is just as bad as that of people lamenting the lack of females in this Fighter's Pass. It's just 5 fighters in a row, we've had gaps before and while I don't expect Nintendo to change their focus from third parties, I also expect we'll see a first party or two before it's all said and done like I expect we'll see female fighters join in further DLC. My argument has always been centered at the idea of third parties making more sense for Nintendo and thus comprise the majority of Smash's speculation as opposed to a condemnation of the characters not in Smash or first party.



I wouldn't quite say there are a ton of potential IPs. There are a bunch of one-offs with no support base and no future with Nintendo, and quite frankly most of those characters are not great DLC options. Like Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven are probably the biggest two series left for Nintendo to include, and that speaks to where we're at with first parties. Dixie Kong and Toad are the biggest we have left for individual fighter additions, and that sort of thing again speaks to how much Smash has already done in including characters.

I'm not really trying to stop speculation on first party newcomers, I just wholly disagree that they're likely beyond maybe one or two options and I think third parties make more sense as inclusions. That's not stopping speculation, that's people just being not interested in them once the board opened up in terms of options. I'm not interested in talking about first parties all that much, and many people share that thought. We can occasionally push back harder than we should and we're humans with flaws, but it's mostly just been people less interested in at this point, which you have to admit, makes a lot of sense given what we're working with in terms of who is even left first party wise. There just aren't many Nintendo characters that have that larger and wide appeal left, and they just don't excite as many people in the same way that even Ridley could.

Again, I'm trying to stay away from too many generalizations, but like, it feels super odd for people ot rail against Three Houses when its one of the most beloved Fire Emblem games in ages and has become a popular option for many people. First parties can't just come from dead franchises and ignored characters, they have to be relevant to Nintendo's vision and be compelling DLC options that can stand on their own. If your push is for first party DLC, it seems odd for people to against popular options that reach a lot of people. Sure, that may be your preferences, but if your goal is more first parties in Smash, that just seems like an essential part of it and something that should also be supported as those picks can still go beyond the "Smash Bubble."

Also, hell no to "death of the author." Death of the author started as an extremely efficient way to teach people en masse during the early 20th century and kept the focus on the "text" because there wasn't more time to learn detailed authorial backgrounds and was an attempt to turn art criticism into a science. It's just one way of interpreting texts and art, and I think it's an extremely limited and ultimately unfulfilling way to interpret works of art. Art does reflect the creator and all of the circumstances surrounding its creation, so I respectfully do not agree with any notions of "death of the author" as being all that relevant of a topic to bring up.

The "doom and gloom" part stems from the fact that if there are no first party characters as DLC, Ultimate will have more third party unique newcomers than first party ones. That's a worrying trend if it keeps up and we'd like to nip it in the bud. Sure, 15 out of 82 ain't much, but 6 out of 12 is already quite a lot and it might end up being something like 11 out of 17.

As for Three Houses, I'd love to see Byleth join the fray, along with characters like Officer Howard, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, hell I even support guys like Snip & Clip. You can even find posts in the main newcomer thread where I speak about the importance of supporting Nintendo's new IPs. So again, it would seem like you just can't fathom everyone here not having 100% the same taste in characters.

 

[BKupa666]

I agree with this thread's sentiment. Not to gatekeep all third party characters, because there still are some cool ones out there, or diminish legitimate personal character wants, but I really don't like how every fan poll now seems to have devolved into a soulless/mechanical list of "who are big non-Nintendo names that will sell as DLC." Video game companies have multi-million dollar marketing budgets for their games, they don't need slavish fans to do their job for them.

Characters also aren't inherently interesting just because Nintendo doesn't own them -- the talking point of "all the important first party characters already are added" rings hollow when third party suggestions tend to be the generic protagonists of those series. Not that every first party candidate would be great either, of course, some of the new and relevant names on people's tongues would go over like a wet fart.

From my perspective, instead, Sakurai now has the opportunity to spread his wings creatively and add more side- or one-off Nintendo candidates from veteran series, and representatives from untapped first party series. Smash is a Nintendo All-Star crossover in its bones, so anything to flesh out the number of match-ups you can do within and among its series would be great.

 

[Sebas22]

Alright, so let's say we get a Kirby fighter, who would you most want? I'm kind of biased to my Dark Meta Knight since I've thought up so many ideas for him (making him more representative of Meta Knight/sword Kirby from the games and his Star Allies appearance)

I'm happy with any new Kirby character, but if I had to choose, one of these:
1) Adeleine
2) Bandanna Dee
3) Dark Matter

Plant also really made me open up to Bandana Dee.

...what did he mean by this?

 

[Guynamednelson]

what did he mean by this?

You can't complain about a "hat Goomba" getting into Smash when PP isn't even that.