The First Party general support thread

[YoshiandToad]

In the context of Smash, a female character that doesn't have to play second fiddle to anyone.

Actually what's the status on Ice Climbers in this regard?

 

[fogbadge]

I mean, I dunno, I think this is just a point we're going to disagree on. While I agree that she is heavily involved in the moveset, for much of it she is functionally Banjo's weapon. You could call that nitpicky, but like I said above, I'd prefer the female characters don't play second fiddle. I'd prefer people don't say things like "Banjo's awesome! He's so fun to play!" because, as I mentioned, Kazooie is just an afterthought.

but kazooie doesnt play second fiddle theyre meant to be on an equal standing, and the whole point of kazooie doing most of the fighting is meant to be reflective of their personalities where kazooie is the one who likes fighting, you could argue that kazooie is banjo's weapon but the point is is that kazooie does most of the things herself without prompting bar side smash and neutral special

also people saying things like "banjo's awesome" is an indicator of the fandom perception rather than how they are in game

 

[SirCamp]

but kazooie doesnt play second fiddle theyre meant to be on an equal standing, and the whole point of kazooie doing most of the fighting is meant to be reflective of their personalities where kazooie is the one who likes fighting, you could argue that kazooie is banjo's weapon but the point is is that kazooie does most of the things herself without prompting bar side smash and neutral special

also people saying things like "banjo's awesome" is an indicator of the fandom perception rather than how they are in game

Perception is shaped by the game my dude. Even if the intent is for them to be equal, which I agree that it is, it doesn't really matter in the end if the resulting perception by most is that they are not. And by (almost) all accounts, Banjo is most certainly seen as the "main" character of the two. This isn't so true for the original games, but unfortunately without dialogue there simply isn't enough context for the characters to be fully fleshed out. And that means Kazooie doesn't translate nearly as well as Banjo does in Smash. Simply because Banjo is always visible. Because Banjo is the character that you control the vast majority of the time.


And when it comes to representation in particular, perception is what matters. If people don't perceive there to be representation, is it really there? And even if you want to claim that it is there, does it actually serve its purpose? If no one is identifying with the character, who then is it representing? It's a bit like people who take Pikachu and say, Pikachu Libre has the heart tail, so it's a female rep. Nobody cares. It's a Pikachu.

 

[Sebas22]

Actually what's the status on Ice Climbers in this regard?

Well, here's how I see it:

Spoiler: Drawing skills -100

Anyways, Banjo isn't first party, so stop talking about him, and let's talk about Adeleine who is the perfect female first party character that's not a spirit. She has my support!

 

[NintenZ]

When I say I want more females in Smash, I mean I want more females that don't play second fiddle to a male character.

So characters like Nana or Kazooie don't count imo.

 

[fogbadge]

Perception is shaped by the game my dude. Even if the intent is for them to be equal, which I agree that it is, it doesn't really matter in the end if the resulting perception by most is that they are not. And by (almost) all accounts, Banjo is most certainly seen as the "main" character of the two. This isn't so true for the original games, but unfortunately without dialogue there simply isn't enough context for the characters to be fully fleshed out. And that means Kazooie doesn't translate nearly as well as Banjo does in Smash. Simply because Banjo is always visible. Because Banjo is the character that you control the vast majority of the time.


And when it comes to representation in particular, perception is what matters. If people don't perceive there to be representation, is it really there? And even if you want to claim that it is there, does it actually serve its purpose? If no one is identifying with the character, who then is it representing? It's a bit like people who take Pikachu and say, Pikachu Libre has the heart tail, so it's a female rep. Nobody cares. It's a Pikachu.

well my point was more about defending kazooie than saying she was good enough representation, i acknowledge the point that theres no full female characters in the fighter pass but my point was that kazooie should be treated on the same level as banjo and in no way plays a secondary role

 

[Arthur97]

When I say I want more females in Smash, I mean I want more females that don't play second fiddle to a male character.

So characters like Nana or Kazooie don't count imo.

You know Kazooie probably does more, right? They even have a zoomed out portrait to accommodate the both of them.

 

[NintenZ]

You know Kazooie probably does more, right? They even have a zoomed out portrait to accommodate the both of them.

Bruh does that matter when it's mainly Banjo you're controlling?

 

[Deleted member]

Lmao there sure is alot arguing about splitting hairs about a Third party character in a thread about First Party characters.

Its really not difficult to understand that whenever people talk about wanting female characters they talk about them being standalone fighters, not play second fiddle to a male character.

 

[PhantomShab]

Bruh does that matter when it's mainly Banjo you're controlling?

Does it matter what gender a character is that should determine their worth to getting into Smash?

No. But apparently it matters a lot to certain people lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Does it matter what gender a character is that should determine their worth to getting into Smash?

No. But apparently it matters a lot to certain people lol.

If you dont care about the gender of a character is then why are you arguing about it? Why are you wasting everyone's time defending the validity of a bird thats used as a weapon?

 

[PhantomShab]

If you dont care about the gender of a character is then why are you arguing about it? Why are you wasting everyone's time defending the validity of a bird thats used as a weapon?

Because wanting a character simply because their a female is a dumb reason to want a character. There's female characters I'd like to see in Smash but them being female has nothing to do with it.

 

[Deleted member]

Because wanting a character simply because their a female is a dumb reason to want a character. There's female characters I'd like to see in Smash but them being female has nothing to do with it.

That implies that the female character choices are so bad that people have to make that up as an excuse, which isnt the case.

Just like your reason for wasting everyones time with your pointless arguments.

Let me run this nonsense down for you real quick.

Someone doesnt want to DLC passes to feature only male characters

Someone brings up Kazooie, yknow Banjo's item as an argument.

And now were here after this pointless argument about Kazooie, a third party character and an item of a male character in a thread about first party characters and a topic about wanting female characters.

So i'll ask again, why do you care if other people want female characters in smash?

 

[Zinith]

Kazooie is just as much of a playable character as Banjo. The entire point of the duo is that they work as a team and are inseparable. Neither the BK games nor Smash gives the impression that they would split and do their own thing.

"Perception that Banjo is the lead and Kazooie plays 'second fiddle?'" Unfalsifiable claim. When you start presuming the viewpoints of the majority of speculators, that never goes by well.

Again, you can advocate a DLC character for whatever reason, even if it solely on the basis of gender. But when that reasoning is founded on a claim (i.e. "no female fighters in FP"), that is exposed to scrutiny...

 

[Deleted member]

Kazooie is just as much of a playable character as Banjo. The entire point of the duo is that they work as a team and are inseparable. Neither the BK games nor Smash gives the impression that they would split and do their own thing.

"Perception that Banjo is the lead and Kazooie plays 'second fiddle?'" Unfalsifiable claim. When you start presuming the viewpoints of the majority of speculators, that never goes by well.

Again, you can advocate a DLC character for whatever reason, even if it solely on the basis of gender. But when that reasoning is founded on a claim (i.e. "no female fighters in FP"), that is exposed to scrutiny...

*Ahem*

Its really not difficult to understand that whenever people talk about wanting female characters they talk about them being standalone fighters, not play second fiddle to a male character.

Someone brings up Kazooie, yknow Banjo's item as an argument.

a third party character and an item of a male character in a thread about first party characters and a topic about wanting female characters.

 

[PhantomShab]

That implies that the female character choices are so bad that people have to make that up as an excuse, which isnt the case.

Just like your reason for wasting everyones time with your pointless arguments.

Let me run this nonsense down for you real quick.

Someone doesnt want to DLC passes to feature only male characters

Someone brings up Kazooie, yknow Banjo's item as an argument.

And now were here after this pointless argument about Kazooie, a third party character and an item of a male character in a thread about first party characters and a topic about wanting female characters.

So i'll ask again, why do you care if other people want female characters in smash?

I've made the least amount of posts of all the people in this "argument" yet you seem fixated on singling me out specifically. You got a problem or something? I already told you why I "care". I find it dumb to want a character based on anything other than what you personally like about the character.

Don't like my answer? I don't care. Go kick rocks lol.

 

[Opossum]

Kazooie is just as much of a playable character as Banjo. The entire point of the duo is that they work as a team and are inseparable. Neither the BK games nor Smash gives the impression that they would split and do their own thing.

"Perception that Banjo is the lead and Kazooie plays 'second fiddle?'" Unfalsifiable claim. When you start presuming the viewpoints of the majority of speculators, that never goes by well.

Again, you can advocate a DLC character for whatever reason, even if it solely on the basis of gender. But when that reasoning is founded on a claim (i.e. "no female fighters in FP"), that is exposed to scrutiny...

Kazooie doesn't even get to wear clothes while Banjo does. Kazooie's name isn't even in the title of two Banjo games. They're by no means treated as equals, especially in the context of Smash, where Kazooie is more equivalent to Luma, the Pikmin, and the Duck. The fact that Kazooie appears to be male at first glance (since colorful feathers are generally found on male birds when factoring in sexual dimorphism) doesn't help matters.

When people say that they want a female character as DLC, they want that character as the headliner, not someone that (at best) has to share the spotlight with yet another guy. That shouldn't really be hard to get.


That being said, on the first party side, I say add Edelgard.

 

[Zinith]

*Ahem*

As a Yoshi fan, I get the "character is an item" canard thrown at me all the time. I've even seen people argue he should be relegated to item status in Smash for that very reason.

Needless to say, I don't buy that label for Kazooie

 

[Sysreq]

Kazooie is just as much of a playable character as Banjo. The entire point of the duo is that they work as a team and are inseparable. Neither the BK games nor Smash gives the impression that they would split and do their own thing.

Sorry, did you say the BK games don't give the impression that they would split and do their own thing? Uhh, how about the part in Banjo-Tooie where you use split-up pads and literally do your own thing as either of the characters? Did you not read my post on previous page?

 

[Deleted member]

I've made the least amount of posts of all the people in this "argument" yet you seem fixated on singling me out specifically. You got a problem or something?

Because youre the most vocal and condescending out of all them and not to mention youre the one the continued this nonsense.

Don't like my answer? I don't care. Go kick rocks lol.

Im speechless, I dont know how to address this immature response other than simply saying lmao.

 

[PhantomShab]

Because youre the most vocal and condescending out of all them and not to mention youre the one the continued this nonsense.


Im speechless, I dont know how to address this immature response other than simply saying lmao.

You can't continue a discussion that hadn't even been dropped yet. You were the last person to post before me today, so I guess that means you're just as guilty lmao.

 

[Zinith]

Sorry, did you say the BK games don't give the impression that they would split and do their own thing? Uhh, how about the part in Banjo-Tooie where you use split-up pads and literally do your own thing as either of the characters? Did you not read my post on previous page?

You know what I meant. I'm talking about the two as their own separate agency. Even in that example you still need them to work together. Mario can (and has) gone on adventures without Luigi. Same with Sonic and Tails. You can't say that with Banjo-Kazooie.

Now granted, the one exception to that was Banjo's introduction in Diddy Kong Racing, but he was redesigned in BK to work with Kazooie and it's been like that ever since

 

[GoodGrief741]

This is off-topic, so can we please go back to the first party conversation? I find this debate tiring.

 

[Zinith]

FYI one of my most wanted first-party picks (after Yoshi reps) is Elma

 

[fogbadge]

That being said, on the first party side, I say add Edelgard.

i say burn her to death

though given the tone recently i fell i should point out that its about her as a character

 

[Deleted member]

i say burn her to death

though given the tone recently i fell i should point out that its about her as a character

Im speechless again. I don't what I can say other than behave yourself than behave yourself.

If you dont like a character then dont harass others that do. I personally dont think Toad deserves to be in smash but you dont see me harassing you and your thread about it.

 

[fogbadge]

Im speechless again. I don't what I can say other than behave yourself than behave yourself.

If you dont like a character then dont harass others that do. I personally dont think Toad deserves to be in smash but you dont see me harassing you and your thread about it.

that was what we call a joke

also i thought it was pretty clear that the line was about the character rather than the user

 

[Deleted member]

that was what we call a joke

Thats not how jokes work.

Quoting someone's post to tell them you want their character request to die isnt a joke nor is it funny.

And saying "its a joke!1!" Isnt a scapegoat to hide your childish behaviour, if anything it makes you look more childish lmao.

 

[YoshiandToad]

So anyway;

Going forward in future Smash games, do you think we can expect First Parties to return as the main focal point of newcomers post Ultimate, or do you think the current DLC trend hints at what Smash is becoming with a more Third Party focus?

I know everyone's feeling a bit glum about first party chances now, but I want to gauge people's thoughts on this one.

 

[fogbadge]

Thats not how jokes work.

Quoting someone's post to tell them you want their character request to die isnt a joke nor is it funny.

And saying "its a joke!1!" Isnt a scapegoat to hide your childish behaviour, if anything it makes you look more childish lmao.

it wasnt a scapegoat it was genuine joke

 

[Deleted member]

So anyway;

Going forward in future Smash games, do you think we can expect First Parties to return as the main focal point of newcomers post Ultimate, or do you think the current DLC trend hints at what Smash is becoming with a more Third Party focus?

I know everyone's feeling a bit glum about first party chances now, but I want to gauge people's thoughts on this one.

Disregarding your projections the focus for future installments are definitely gonna be first parties. There arent any third parties left that are on Sonic's or Ryu's level so its more in Nintendo's interest to include their ips.

 

[Deleted member]

it wasnt a scapegoat it was genuine joke

Aight im done lmao.

 

[YoshiandToad]

https://youtu.be/ifaoKZfQpdA

Aight im done lmao.

Edit: someday i'll figure out how I can post videos lmao.

When typing, go to the elipses sign(...) and hit the drop down arrow. It'll give you the option to post Media including Youtube videos.

Disregarding your projections the focus for future installments are definitely gonna be first parties. There arent any third parties left that are on Sonic's or Ryu's level so its more in Nintendo's interest to include their ips.

Not really a projection of mine, just seems to be something the fanbase as a whole is currently leaning towards. Wanted to gauge where everyone in here stood on it.

For the record and to state my own personal opinion; I agree with you.

There's a few third party megastars left, but I imagine a selection where the newcomers are primarily all third parties could get pretty costly, and Nintendo will want to promote their own selection of franchises throughout.
There's been new IPs coming from Nintendo in recent years with Astral Chain and ARMS and a noticable growth in fandoms for smaller series titles like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, and that's not even touching missing Nintendo mainstays like Dixie, Bandana Dee, Toad and Waluigi. Definitely not hurting on options in my opinion.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So anyway;

Going forward in future Smash games, do you think we can expect First Parties to return as the main focal point of newcomers post Ultimate, or do you think the current DLC trend hints at what Smash is becoming with a more Third Party focus?

I know everyone's feeling a bit glum about first party chances now, but I want to gauge people's thoughts on this one.

I figure that for base rosters, first-party/third-party ratio will be similar to the base rosters for Brawl and 4, with around two third parties and the rest being first party (I expect the amount of newcomers to go back to respectable levels).

Though I should mention that if all DLC characters turn out to be third party I will boycott any third party newcomers on base roster and it's something everyone here should consider. If Nintendo characters are only worthy of base roster status, then it's only fair that they get as many slots as that allows.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Actually what's the status on Ice Climbers in this regard?

I think the fact that the KO depends on Popo and not her makes them not any better than Banjo Kazooie.

 

[Arthur97]

Bruh does that matter when it's mainly Banjo you're controlling?

"Bruh," most of the time you press a button, it's Kazooie or both doing something (seriously, count them. It's easier to count the moves Kazooie doesn't do anything on). Even their dash is Kazooie. Banjo's just the one that takes the beating, which you should like that part. Controlling doesn't mean just jumping (which Kazooie helps out on too) and walking. They are a duo, and you control both of them. Regardless of gender, they are a team. One does not work without the other (at least in Smash as they have occasionally split up).

Also, you are aware that you can use Nana as the lead, right?

 

[Deleted member]

I think the fact that the KO depends on Popo and not her makes them not any better than Banjo Kazooie.

Not to sound mean or anything but lets just move on from this topic already.

"Bruh," most of the time you press a button, it's Kazooie or both doing something. Even their dash is Kazooie. Banjo's just the one that takes the beating, which you should like that part.

Also, you are aware that you can use Nana as the lead, right?

But I am gonna be mean to you, get with the program and drop this pointless argument. We already moved on from this topic.

 

[Oddball]

At this point, MOST of my top picks for newcomers are 1st party.

It's not that I don't want to see anymore 3rd party. There are a lot of good characters that are 3rd part who I'd love to see get in the game.

It's just that ...

Mike Jones
Ayumi Tachibana
Mach Rider
The Amazon
Ganon
Toad
Impa
Pious Augustus

Rank higher than any third party I could think of.

Also, high on my list of wants for first party would be ...

Wart
Mouser
Henry Flemming
King Hippo
Eggplant Wizard
Pauline
Urban Champion
Donkey Kong Jr.
Tatanga

Mostly retros really.

 

[Thermithral]

Admittedly with Ridley being revealed first, and the third party character I want basically never going to happen (Murky, Human Guise Deathwing and or Illidan) I don't know who else would get me hyped. Someone from Kid Icarus, Three Houses or Zelda is my best bet at the moment.

I have always wanted a fighter sized Master Hand as a fighter. Maybe make him float around like Mewtwo, but still be locked to the ground like everyone else. Less, Master Hand, and more Mister Hand. Though, I dont know if that counts, it would be a neat, weird DLC character.

 

[Arthur97]

Also, someone mentioned that we're out of big names, well, yeah, it was pretty much all down hill from Sonic. Yes, some are still big names, but I do think Sonic is likely the biggest third party on the roster to date. And, yes, with Terry and even Bayonetta (and I'd argue Joker especially since they make a point that he doesn't represent his whole series), they have lost some of that star power

That said, I don't foresee them not doing third parties primarily. At least for DLC. Whether it be some misguided belief that they need to be third party to actually sell, or Sakurai just wanting to work with more third parties (I still think he might be biased for SF). Now, first parties do probably have a better chance in the next game on account of just being easier to get, but they seem intent on dragging the game away from the Nintendo focus. Fortunately, Nintendo is so ingrained in the series that it's still primarily Nintendo.