The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems

[Jack Kieser]

THIS IS A LONG POST. IT SAYS A LOT. THE TL;DR IS IN THE THREAD TITLE. DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD UNTIL YOU HAVE READ THE ENTIRE OP. I WILL REPORT ANY 'TL;DR' POSTS THAT I SEE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

The Melee/Brawl debate has now been raging for close to five months, and it has taken a toll on the boards. General Brawl Discussion is a mess, transformed into a pit of flames that would make Satan himself blush. Melee Discussion, almost regularly (though it has been getting better) gets threads extolling the detriments that Brawl players bring upon the Smash community. Members of either game's community venture into the opposite game's boards with the sole aim of trolling or flame-baiting. But things have gotten better!

Recently, advances have been made in the community to curtail these problems. Scar's thread, a longtime haven for argumentation about Melee/Brawl (after it deteriorated from logical discussion), has been closed. A rather large Treaty thread has been established, showing to the community that at least one side, if not both, wants the fighting to end. Flaming has been on the decline. Many Melee/Brawl threads have died off, and the few that remain are actually existing with relatively little flaming. It has been proven (or at least, enough to matter) how pointless the whole argument is, but the Melee/Brawl debate has one last safe refuge in the minds of players: that Brawl somehow has caused all of Melee's current problems, and that (as far as many players are concerned) Brawl's continued existence is not only a drain on Melee, but that Melee cannot co-exist with Brawl at all and thus the community must actively choose to only play Melee competitively if it is to survive.

I will now prove, logically, how inane this line of thinking is and dispel once and for all the notion that we, as a community, cannot continue to play both games competitively, as well as the notion that Brawl (as well as the people who play it) is somehow to blame for all of Melee's problems.

Let us take first into consideration the notion that Melee players are basically forced to play Brawl by examining the Brawl launch in Japan. As anyone around for the Brawl hype can attest to, much attention was paid to Japan in the days leading up to (and the days after) the Brawl launch. Pre-orders were placed, imports were paid for, shipping commenced, and in a few short days, Brawl, in Japanese format, was in the states. The Dojo was pulled up on monitors around the country in an attempt to more easily navigate Japanese menus, and when the matches finally began, when the final verdict was reached... Brawl was deemed a failure.

Many, even in the early days, cited a lack of AT's (advanced techniques), most notably L-canceling (which was replaced with auto-canceled aerials), a lack of hitstun, and floaty physics as Brawl's downfall, and over the next few weeks leading up to Brawl's American release, SWF was ablaze with members warning about Brawl's 'features', or lack thereof. Yet, when Brawl's American release date came, a peculiar thing happened...

Despite all warnings, an overwhelming majority of Melee players purchased Brawl anyway.

This is the first step toward realizing that Brawl is not the cause of Melee's downfall. Every member of SWF, right out of the box, knew what Brawl's weaknesses were. Every member knew how different the game was. Every member heard the pro's evaluations and dismissals of the game, and every member knew what to expect going into their purchase. Most ignored the warnings and bought Brawl anyway. Not a single Melee player was forced to buy Brawl on day one. Not a single Melee player was forced to go to midnight tournaments, or first week tournaments, or even first month tournaments. Every Melee player that bought Brawl made a conscious decision to ignore the warnings of both Japanese and American top players and bought Brawl anyway. The current state of Brawl's popularity is just as much their fault as it is anyone else's. This, naturally, brings me to my next point.

Brawl is currently more popular in tournament settings than Melee is, if SWF posters are to be believed (in terms of tournaments held and entrants per tournament). Many Melee supporters cite this popularity as the main reason Melee is so weak in the competitive scene and postulate that the trend will continue if Brawl is allowed to be played competitively. Well known poster and respected forum-goer coreygames gives us a look into this mindset by way of anecdote:

I was suppose to hold a tournament today, Melee only. It was to be the first melee tournament in almost 5 months here in AZ. I had this planned for the [past] two months and there was going to be a big turn-out.

However, fate interfered. Atomic Comic's decided that they would hold a Brawl tournament today. They announced this LAST WEEKEND. In that short period of time, everyone abandoned my tournament in hopes of glory at Brawl there. I lost people who would bring hardware and friends who would play. What was their reasoning? They said that they weren't that good recently at Melee and would rather stand a chance at winning a Brawl tournament against scrubs than at a Melee tournament against people at their level.

Instead of looking at 20-30 people showing up, I'm now hoping at least 10 will show up today. And why? All because of a spur of the moment Brawl tournament at a company's store instead of a well-planned out Melee tournament at a friends house...

This, it seems, is a scenario that pervades the Melee scene regularly. It is the cause of much hostility towards the Brawl community as well. On the surface, it seems justified that coreygames is upset with the Brawl community; after all, Brawl stole his players, didn't it? I will now prove why this logic is fallacious and why Melee only has itself, as well as its own players, to blame not only for coreygame's situation, but also for the entirity of the poor state of Melee affairs.

Let us look back to the first day of American Brawl sales. As of that day, membership on SWF had increased exponentially from the same period the previous year; this is attributed to the announcement and resulting fanfare of the Brawl release. Many of these forum-goers admitted to never participating in Smash tournaments before, not knowing tournament rules or proceedings, and even admitted ignorance about competitive Smash culture. Are we really to believe that this influx of inexperienced, un-knowledgeable, and (in many cases) unmotivated players are to blame for Melee's downfall? Are we honestly expected to believe that these people, who have little to no knowledge of competitive Smash lore or culture, are single-handedly responsible for not only the frankly embarrassing amount of Brawl tournaments popping up, but also for the decline of competitive Melee and Melee tournaments?

To be frank, one must be mad to expect this to be true.

No, we would be deluded and blind to believe that this, though motivated, completely un-knowledgeable group would, without connections, resources, or stability, be able to topple competitive Melee. Who, then, must be blamed for Melee's current condition? If not Brawl and its players, who should be held responsible for the decline of competitive Melee?

Simply, competitive Melee players and tournament organizers.

It is this group who single-handedly demolished the reign of competitive Melee. The Melee players abandoned their own game for easy money and easy glory at the dramatic cost of not only competitive Melee, but also their own enjoyment of the game of Smash! Pro player Mew2King has on occasion stated his own distaste for Brawl and its gameplay:

No, honestly, I hate brawl and I think the game is extremely terrible so far.

One the largest (and most valid) criticisms aimed at not only M2K, but the entire Brawl-playing sect of the Melee community is very simple: If you hate the game so much, why do you play it? The answer, of course, is obvious. As of now, you can make more money playing Brawl than you can playing Melee. This is, in and of itself, not a bad thing, nor is it hypocritical.

A problem arises, however, when a Brawl-playing Melee supporter complains about the sorry state of Melee. This person, at a base level, is the true reason that Melee is on the decline. Brawl players, especially new members to the arena, do not have the time, money, resources, knowledge, etc., to run a successful large-scale Brawl tournament. The big tournaments, the ones bringing in the big cash and the large numbers of players, are run by former Melee TO's. These people, the same TO's so worried about competitive Melee's future, the same people who are quick to place blame on Brawl and Brawlers, are the very people making the conscious choice to host Brawl tournaments instead of Melee tournaments! The former Melee players entering these tournaments, the same ones who should be expected to populate Melee tournaments and the same ones who are quick to point fingers at Brawlers and Brawl tournaments for sucking away player attendance, are making the conscious decision to forgo competing in Melee tournaments so that they can make more money in Brawl tournaments! And the same pros that bash Brawl and Brawlers for shallowness and 'gayness' are consciously choosing to play said 'gay' game for more easy cash than to go and play an ailing game that they enjoy much more!

People like our dear coreygames have no reason, nor any right, to be mad at Brawl or Brawlers. Brawlers didn't abandon coreygame's tournament. Melee players did! Coreygames' own friends, compatriots, and fellow Melee players abandoned him to play Brawl of their own free will; they were not forced to go to the Brawl tournament, nor were they coerced or manipulated. Brawlers did not go up to these people and extol the virtues of Brawl, convincing them to play an (as far as many Melee players are concerned) 'inferior' game. These very players did what they, and other, do on a constant and daily basis all on their own. Sakurai did not make them trip and fall into the Brawl scene.

There is no reason to blame Brawl, Brawl supporters, Brawl players, or Brawl TO's for any of Melee's problems, because the Melee community brought every single one of them unto themselves. If these people really cared for Melee or for its continued competitive existence, they would play Melee. They would hold Melee tournaments. They would support their own game instead of calling on Brawl players to support it for them. Doing otherwise is childish and hypocritical.


Sources:

coreygames post on his tournament: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4749754&highlight=tournament#post4749754

Mew2King 'hates' Brawl: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3918438&postcount=46

 

[Reaver197]

You got some nice points there, especially with catching people who complain about Brawl and how it's ruining Brawl while at the same time catering to it/playing it themselves because it's "where the money is at".

But, I would like to mention two, what I would consider, fairly important things to consider in regards to how Brawl has, in a significant way, jeopardized Melee's position in the competitive gaming circle. SRK chose to have Brawl instead of Melee at EVO (with completely wtf rules on top of it), and Melee's status in MLG has been severely compromised because of Brawl. Neither of these were caused by any particular act or doing of Melee supporters, but was simply because Brawl came out.

Plus, even if every competitive Melee player held out from buying Brawl, it would've hardly made a dint to Brawl's sales and popularity.

I also don't think every Melee player wrote off Brawl from the start. Of course, there were people like Dylan_Tnga (I hope I spelled that right), but there were Melee people, like myself, who were excited to see what new stuff could happen with Brawl, despite there being no l-canceling/wavedashing. It wasn't until a couple of weeks of playing, and after the immense wave of new techniques and stuff died down a bit, that I, personally, really began to doubt Brawl.

But, yeah, I do like the part where you point out how some of Melee's downturn is to blame on how some Melee supporters are acting. But to say Melee's downturn in popularity is completely independent of Brawl even just simply being released, eh, I don't know.

 

[Vulcan55]

First, I have never once heard someone say that Brawl was the reason for Melee's "problems".
Secondly, the only "problem" Melee has is that the scene is smaller than it used to be.
Why? people leave to play Brawl for the exact reasons you stated in the OP.
Then again, I have never once heard someone say that Brawl was the reason for this.
In conclusion, I am left with not have really learned or realized much. I already understand this, though maybe some people don't.
Also, I think coreygames has a right to be mad at Brawlers. If they would rather play Brawl than Melee, doesn't that make them Brawlers?

If these people really cared for Melee or for its continued competitive existence, they would play Melee. They would hold Melee tournaments. They would support their own game instead of calling on Brawl players to support it for them. Doing otherwise is childish and hypocritical.

This is just plain incorrect and insulting.
We DO care for Melee and it's competitive existance, we DO play Melee, and we DO hold tourneys.
Most of all, what we DON'T do is call on Brawlers to support Melee for us.
Where did you even get the idea that this happens?
Show me some sources for that, please.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Let me clarify (and thanks for, as always, keeping me on my toes ^_^). Firstly, competitive Melee existed and thrived before it was adopted by EVO or MLG. In fact, both circuits only adopted Melee in its last year or two, IIRC. Melee was doing fine, and would have continued to do fine, without adoption by either circuit. Those circuits adopting Brawl over Melee, then, is a moot point because they weren't helping Melee out that much in the long run, anyway.

Secondly, I never said every Melee player wrote off Brawl from the get go... but the majority of the early importers, who were avid Melee players and pros in most cases, did. The people of influence who were motivated enough to import the game in the first place 'knew' pretty early on that Brawl would 'fail' as Melee's successor, and they let us know. The masses didn't heed the warning, which isn't illogical at all; in fact, I applaud them for doing so because they trusted their own experience before the suggestions of others... but that doesn't excuse them for their actions and doesn't give them the right to blame their purchasing of Brawl on the game itself.

Finally, you can be responsible in part for something without being to blame for it. If a crime goes by in front of me, I am partially responsible for not stopping it personally, but am I to blame? No, because I was not the person actively committing the crime. Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee, and Brawl is obviously not to blame for this.

 

[Vulcan55]

Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee...

You're just saying this to say it.
Where are the sources for this?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Seriously, the community would just be better...A WHOLE LOT BETTER...If Brawl didn't exist.

And that was just a glancing sweep of my previous thread. I'm going to go through it in much more detail when I get home. Basically, read my previous thread and you'll answer your own questions.

 

[game set]

can`t wait to read, hold on.

EDIT: Just so everyone understands, people on each side of the debate are there for ALL different reasons. There are people with unfounded reason, and people who understand the situation, just because jack says one thing about one group of people, it may have nothing to do with you, because you are simply in that point of veiw for a different reason.

 

[Bomber7]

Ok, I have to say over all that whole many paragraphs, most of that content was a waste of typing. First off I want to say that I used to play Meele I still like it, it was a fun game. Why get so disrupted over the shift of interest from Meele to Brawl. Sure you got M2K's quote about his opinion on the game. I could care less what that guy or anyone of that matter thinks. What they say doesn't dictate my life concerning what I should do with my SSB life. Also all this screaming and shouting about Brawl to be blamed for such and such for no more Meele tournies, do you think someone posted a thread like this to blame Meele for no more SSB64 tournies? Sure some people dislike the game, but the only way they know that is by buying it and playing it themselves. So don't go asking around "why buy a game you dislike?" I'm sure just about everyone in the Smash community wanted to get that game in hopes of it being one of the games of the year to buy. Now once they got it the opinion of it has been divided, some hate it others like it. I'm sure the last two games were like it. Also if you can close threads I'd like to make a request: close Yuna's "Is Brawl or Meele more balanced" thread. I entered it at the begining of the summer and ended up getting flamed out of it. They are beating a dead horse and yet the war still goes on. Also I agree with Vulcan, I want to see some sources so I can be convinced that Meele is "dead." In the future I suggest being careful of how much you talk because the more you do the easier it is for your words to be stretched thin and broken apart.

 

[Vulcan55]

Seriously, the community would just be better...A WHOLE LOT BETTER...If Brawl didn't exist.

And that was just a glancing sweep of my previous thread. I'm going to go through it in much more detail when I get home. Basically, read my previous thread and you'll answer your own questions.

That isn't saying that Brawl killed Melee.
Obviously, if Brawl didn't exist, there would be no debate because we would all be playing Melee, still.

I have read a lot of your other thread, and still, not once did I see a blatant, "Brawl killed Melee".
I may have glanced over it, but out of the insane number of posts in the thread, that is very few.


EDIT:
This is a rather silly thread.
Of course we can't blame a GAME for killing a community, it was the shift of players that killed it.
But, even then that is silly because Melee isn't dead.
Anyone who claims Brawl killed Melee has no Idea what they're talking about

 

[Vulcan55]

oops dp

Spoiler

10SmashJourneymen

 

[Bomber7]

One of my points exactly.

 

[Al_Di_Medola]

yes, OP is right. people are dumb, and just follow the trends that others are following...
one person decides to go to a brawl tourney, then his friends come, because Brawl is easy.
one person goes to a Melee touney, all his friends go to the Brawl tourney, because Brawl is easy, and there are more people there.
if Melee players would just host melee tourneys, and GO to Melee tourneys then there would be no argument to be had... but people dont care about Melee, they care a bout winning money easily, and making a name for themselves.
they think they can make a name for themselves amongst the hordes of Brawl newcomers easier than amongst the few Melee elitists, and they are right.
its sad, but its up to the melee comunity to play Melee, not the Brawl community to forget brawl...

 

[Grunt]

The word Silly is rather silly.
lol, Silly.

if Melee players would just host melee tourneys, and GO to Melee tourneys then there would be no argument to be had... but people dont care about Melee, they care a bout winning money easily, and making a name for themselves.

OC3?
TGMTSB?
Oxnard on the 16th?

you sir have no idea WTF you're talking about.

 

[Vulcan55]

if Melee players would just host melee tourneys, and GO to Melee tourneys then there would be no argument to be had... but people dont care about Melee, they care a bout winning money easily, and making a name for themselves.

maybe you should learn something about the Melee community before you talk about how it's our fault we are fighting.

EDIT:

OC3?
TGMTSB?
Oxnard on the 16th?

you sir have no idea WTF you're talking about.

Spoiler

greatmindsthinkalike

 

[Al_Di_Medola]

The word Silly is rather silly.
lol, Silly.

OC3?
TGMTSB?
Oxnard on the 16th?

you sir have no idea WTF you're talking about.

maybe you should learn something about the Melee community before you talk about how it's our fault we are fighting.

EDIT:

Spoiler

greatmindsthinkalike

i basically just restated the OP opinion, but in my own words, so it be easier for people to understand, and read, if i misunderstood him please inform me on what he was saying, if i understood correctly, then disagree with him, not me.
that way you dont make me look like an *** for no reason.

 

[Vulcan55]

if Melee players would just host melee tourneys, and GO to Melee tourneys then there would be no argument to be had...

We do host tourneys, and we do go to them.
The OP was wrong on this point too.

So obviously, it isn't our fault.

 

[Bomber7]

Guys is it really that big of a deal that there has been a huge interest flow from Meele to Brawl and that more people play Brawl than Meele? You also can't forget that most people like new things. Brawl is new so therefore people are going to switch thier interests from the old(Meele) to the new(Brawl). But yeah I agree with Jack, that it's the players fault that Meele isn't played as much. What do you plan getting out of bringing up that Meele is probably considered underrated(though that's not my opinion I like it still) now that Brawl is out? Is this supposed to be a scare? A guilt trip? Intemedation? You must understand that no one can stop the flow of interests, it's like the constant flow of new technologies, or a better example, cars. People are always looking for new cars, there are some people who have to have the newest car on the market, doesn't mean it's always better even though it's newer. Please tell me Jack what you are hoping to gain out of this thread.

 

[Al_Di_Medola]

We do host tourneys, and we do go to them.
The OP was wrong on this point too.

So obviously, it isn't our fault.

well then ok, thats all good, but you and that other guy should have just said that, instead of flaming me for trying to restate his point.

anyway, i live in SC, not exactly the Smash capital of the world... so there are no Melee tourneys here, if there were id go.
I cant host either, because i have to little resources, and theres not really a large community here anyway.

 

[MarKO X]

Both games can be played competitively, obviously... you just need the people to do so. Let's take a look at Evo... Capcom got Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Super Turbo, and Third Strike. Which game is the most competitive? Which game is the deepest? Who cares? All the games are being played. I won't say anything about the exact turnout, because I don't know which will get the biggest turnout (super turbo maybe?) but each game will get big turnouts. So it's not like Evo can't hold a Melee tournament as well as their Brawl tournament, but why would they when people who claim that Melee is better and say that Brawl is crap play Brawl? With Melee and Brawl players playing Brawl, no one is playing Melee, so they believe the interest in it has declined, and will hold only a Brawl tourney.

So basically, it is the Melee players fault. Brawl players nor Melee players have any obligation to play any game, but it would definitely help the community if the players played what they wanted as opposed to playing a game solely for money over their own perferences.

Edit: I think Evo making excessive camping an infraction might be the best thing ever to happen to a Brawl tourney... wish I could go, cause my Sonic would definitely have a chance... let's go Super!!!

 

[Reaver197]

Let me clarify (and thanks for, as always, keeping me on my toes ^_^). Firstly, competitive Melee existed and thrived before it was adopted by EVO or MLG. In fact, both circuits only adopted Melee in its last year or two, IIRC. Melee was doing fine, and would have continued to do fine, without adoption by either circuit. Those circuits adopting Brawl over Melee, then, is a moot point because they weren't helping Melee out that much in the long run, anyway.

Secondly, I never said every Melee player wrote off Brawl from the get go... but the majority of the early importers, who were avid Melee players and pros in most cases, did. The people of influence who were motivated enough to import the game in the first place 'knew' pretty early on that Brawl would 'fail' as Melee's successor, and they let us know. The masses didn't heed the warning, which isn't illogical at all; in fact, I applaud them for doing so because they trusted their own experience before the suggestions of others... but that doesn't excuse them for their actions and doesn't give them the right to blame their purchasing of Brawl on the game itself.

Finally, you can be responsible in part for something without being to blame for it. If a crime goes by in front of me, I am partially responsible for not stopping it personally, but am I to blame? No, because I was not the person actively committing the crime. Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee, and Brawl is obviously not to blame for this.

Ah, it's no problem, lol. I hope that I can help keep your mental sword sharp and keen, if I may use such a dramatic analogy. Yeah, unfortunately, I cannot find anything that says when MLG actually picked up Melee. There's that KillaOR "real life" video on youtube that was done in 2006, so, yeah, at least 2 years. Maybe 3. But, yeah, EVO picked up Melee in 2007.

I don't know, something about Melee getting recognition as a great fighting game beyond just it's own fanbase and being hosted at tournaments such as EVO and MLG seems to entail a certain level and proficiency of competition it accomplished. It became more than just a niche game, and finally became recognized as one of the great fighting games, along with SF, VF, Tekken, and GG. But, it seems, just when Melee hit this major point and could finally begin to take some strides in the more prestigious and international tournies (I guess, just pretty much EVO, lol), Brawl came along and just hit the brakes on it.

Eh...I'm not really building to any particular point, I guess, and my post might be becoming a bit too esoteric. But, it's just that I find it pretty sad and somewhat frustrating that just when Melee really seems like it could've start building up a international, prestigious, and competitive community, Brawl suddenly barged in. I guess, just sort of a regret over lost potential for the Smash competitive community.

Yeah...

Anyway, I understand your next point. I guess most Melee supporters have an issue with the sort of people that Brawl has brought to the forefront of community, not something that can be blamed on the game being the game it is.

Unfortunately, I don't quite understand what your last bit is pertaining to. Is it that Brawl people can be held partially responsible for what is happening to Melee, but not blamed?

 

[Bomber7]

Brawl is here, you can't take that back, yes it would be harder if not impossible to make and host a Meele tourny these days. THough as Vulcan states they are still being held so there are no worries. Even if you don't have the resources hold small tournies in your home. Like a friendly tourny or something. It's great that Meele hasn't been completely thrown in the trash bin. Though just because it's Meele players fault that there is a decline in the Meele community, they shouldn't be loked down upon.

Besides,whats wrong with buying a product from a company you support?

 

[Vulcan55]

So basically, it is the Melee players fault. Brawl players nor Melee players have any obligation to play any game, but it would definitely help the community if the players played what they wanted as opposed to playing a game solely for money over their own perferences.

So it's my fault because some pro Melee players play Brawl for money even though they despise the game? After all, I am a Melee player.

This comment makes absolutely no sense. Mostly likely because you don't know what you are talking about. I mean, you use "community" very generally. What community are you talking about?


ALSO:

If they aren't playing Melee anymore, Then they aren't Melee players, they are Brawlers.
There is no reason to blame Melee players because, thecnically, Melee players DIDN'T LEAVE MELEE.
EX Melee players LEFT Melee for Brawl.
it isn't one community's fault.

Bomber7, you're mostly right.

 

[Jack Kieser]

*sigh* I didn't realize people would take certain words so literally. Of course you can't blame the GAME of Brawl for anything because it is an inanimate object; when people say Brawl has done this, that, or the other, they are talking about the people who play it. Does CNN always say that 'the President and his cabinet' do things? No, they say 'the White House' did something. OF COURSE the building didn't do anything, but its implied that the building stands for the people who work in it.

@Reaver: In reference to the last thing you said, yes, Brawl players can assume SOME responsibility for the state of Melee (because they aren't playing it either), but they shouldn't, nor can they, be totally blamed for it, or even be blamed to any significant amount, because of how little effect they have in relation to Melee players.

 

[Wuss]

Although I agree with everything vulcan has been saying in refuting your points, I would also just like to disagree a little with your logic.

You claim that in coreygamers situation, it is his friends (the melee players) fault that they abandoned his tournament. However, I can look at it another way, and say that if the noobs that just picked up brawl and would go to a tournament such as the one that stole his friends didn't exist, then the tournament would mostly likely not exist as their would be very little appeal and/or people interested. His friends abandoned his tournament BECAUSE there would be noobs at this tournament and therefore they had an easier chance at winning which isn't their fault (as you said with m2k). So if these so called noobs that would be willing to go to this tournament hadn't existed, either the tournament wouldn't have happened, or his friends wouldn't go because everyone would be on a similar playing just as they would be in the melee tourney (assuming of course some weren't really good at brawl, which is fair because then only they would go). This means, as a result of the community that the game brawl has created, his tournament would have been the happy gathering of many friends.

This is the way I see it at least. I'm in no way blaming brawl for all of these so-called "problems" with melee, but I'm just pointing out coreygamer's logic and why just because you see it one way, doesn't mean he doesn't see it in another perfectly valid way.

edit: "Of course you can't blame the GAME of Brawl for anything because it is an inanimate object; when people say Brawl has done this, that, or the other, they are talking about the people who play it. Does CNN always say that 'the President and his cabinet' do things? No, they say 'the White House' did something. OF COURSE the building didn't do anything, but its implied that the building stands for the people who work in it. "
-jack keiser

that's called a synecdoche.

 

[Grunt]

So...It's M2K's fault?

 

[Vulcan55]

*sigh* I didn't realize people would take certain words so literally. Of course you can't blame the GAME of Brawl for anything because it is an inanimate object; when people say Brawl has done this, that, or the other, they are talking about the people who play it. Does CNN always say that 'the President and his cabinet' do things? No, they say 'the White House' did something. OF COURSE the building didn't do anything, but its implied that the building stands for the people who work in it.

The points still stand and you're still dodging around people's questions.
err, well, mine. I seem to be the only one directly questioning you.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

The point jack is trying to make is that if coreygamer's friends loved melee so much, then they should have gone to his melee tournie. I can see jack's point in this thread in that if you are informed and know the truth that melee does infact own brawl as far as the competitivene experience goes... then go to the melee tournie. If you choose the brawl over the melee, then obviously you want melee to fail... which is ********.

I was having fun debating the quality of each game. This thread and its point appear to be self-evident....

 

[DTKPch]

Do you realize how much **** big-time TOs would get if they just dropped Brawl completely? Imagine that any TO who's made a name for himself only held Melee tournaments.

I'm guessing that at least 95% of people who regularly check Brawl Discussion would start calling them various, insulting names, like "tourney***" or... um... "dumb." Yeah, let's go with that.

Seriously, I would approve if TOs did that, but a lot of them don't have enough conviction or melee support to do it, just because of the ramifications of such an action.

On a side note, I don't recall reading or hearing anybody bashing Brawl before March 9. Then again, my memory and timeframe of those couple of months is a little unclear. I, at least, remember buying Brawl in the hopes that it would have a competitive chance. I think I may have read some stuff (when did Gimpyfish make his "backwards progression" thread?), but I thought any naysayers might have been exaggerating. I thought it had more competitive potential than it does.

 

[EvonJ]

So...It's M2K's fault?

haha. I think that is exactly what the point of this thread is.

 

[Reaver197]

@Reaver: In reference to the last thing you said, yes, Brawl players can assume SOME responsibility for the state of Melee (because they aren't playing it either), but they shouldn't, nor can they, be totally blamed for it, or even be blamed to any significant amount, because of how little effect they have in relation to Melee players.

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

LOl, as a TO... i could give a **** if some random brawl nubs started flaming me and i'm sure most of the other TOs wouldn't either. The major TOs in the other regions have in my opinion fallen for the "new toy" effect that brawl has had on so many other melee players. I do believe that eventually when the smoke clears from the battlefield, melee will come back after most of the melee players see that the brawl experiment has proven to be a failure. Right now people are still clinging to it, hoping that it will transcend to the greatness that competitive melee experienced. But hey... i could be wrong and nintendo will have wasted all the potential of melee coming out with this... fun party game that we got. Yes it is fun as long as people dont camp!.

 

[FalconPunch]

Dammit, Trail why couldn't you live in DC?

 

[Tony_]

Brawl players cannot be blamed for Brawl's decline. Melee players cannot label Brawl players as a scapegoat because their game is dying. Its called moving on and some people should look into that.

 

[Vulcan55]

*sigh*
The abundance of people who don't know what they are talking about makes me sad.

 

[FalconPunch]

Usually people move on to something that adds on to the previous installment.

It's like moving from CTR to CNK*.

*no one knows what I'm talking about

 

[Vyse]

I think I'm of M2K's opinion that I'm only playing Brawl because everybody else is.
: /

I'm at an extreme geographical disadvantage though. Living in Australia, with a Melee scene that started up well after Melee's release (At least, in my state), I'm lucky that a competitive Melee scene was ever established.

Brawl bought us online Wifi play.
Where do people go to set up online play?
Forums.

And thus the boatloads of Brawl age scrubs flocked to this website.

Now, this was my state's chance to really boost the 'smash' scene in general. The console is popular (FYI, cube wasn't in Aus), the game is still new and everyone is still playing it (By everyone I mean casuals, etc.).

So, for the sake of heightening the competitive, combined smash scene in general, I decided to direct my state's first Brawl + Melee tournament, and should the expected numbers hold true, it should prove to be one of the largest in QLD and Australian history (It's in my sig, and don't laugh, 65-70 is ALOT for Aus).

Had I not decided to organise something of this scale, Brawl's competitive scene would still be nearly non-existent in my state, alot of people would never have discovered competitive smash, and Melee would still be floundering in limbo.

For me, it's less about favouring one game over the other, but keeping the competitive scene of both alive, for the chance that perhaps one day Melee will rise to its former popularity.

 

[cjrocker]

Did Melee make such a big splash when it came out? People are already complaining that Brawl's done this or that, who's to say that in the years to come the Melee competitive scene will go back to what it was before Brawl? I think everybody's just impatient, feel free to correct me.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

^
It was huge for the last few years

 

[Wrath`]

It all comes down too "What will give me more money?" It's funny how the sin know as Greed plays a huge factor, good melee players go and kill brawl tournies and pick up cash, like it was taking candy from a baby. If you were in a situation where you could play people at a lower level for 100$ cash, or play people at you level or better for 25$, you are obviously gonna go with choice 1, easy and pays more, so don't blame brawl(great fun game), don't blame melee(great fun game), blame the greed in you felow melee'ers hearts, wich tell them to do what lines their pockets more.

 

[Vulcan55]

If you were in a situation where you could play people at a lower level for 100$ cash, or play people at you level or better for 25$, you are obviously gonna go with choice 1, easy and pays more,

No, not obviously. What choice I make would depend on the game being played. If in both situations it answer is Melee, I would go with 2 so I could meet pros and other people I look up to. If it is Brawl I would do neither because I hate Brawl with a passion.
If the one that pays 100 is Brawl and the other Melee, I would play Melee for the reason above.

so don't blame brawl(great fun game), don't blame melee(great fun game), blame the greed in you felow melee'ers hearts, wich tell them to do what lines their pockets more.

Not everybody is greedy.
AND STOP CALLING PEOPLE WHO USED TO PLAY MELEE BUT PLAY BRAWL NOW MELEE PLAYERS!
THEY PLAY BRAWL, THEY ARE BRAWLERS!