Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

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Terotrous

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Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.
Rosalina is debatable if you asked me though.
 

Shadow_13

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This Patch seems very disappointing to me. Like there aren't any buffs to characters such as Link with his speed and frame data. Like he's one of those characters that I know who struggles in competitive play because he doesn't have any reliable combos.
Link doesn't need it. He's fantastic in the competitive scene and he has amazing combos. They may not be true combos, but staying up close, Link can punish most anything as long as they are not Sonic or Rosalina... or really the top 7 characters in the game.

I really liked this patch. No big changes. No characters really need them except Samus with her melee game and Palutena. To me, this was a great patch. Pretty much everyone is good. The only changes I really wanted was to have a slight bit of lag on ZSS' UAir and decrease the range on Sheik's FAir. That's it.

Also, anyone find anything with Cloud? I can't test it against a previous patch, but it feels like nothing is changed on him. Anyone else?
 

McDareth

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I shall test this. Lower crouching opponents... you got any examples of who it couldn't hit in situations like this before so I can do proper tests?
You can also test this against characters being prone on the ground after a missed tech as before Falco's Up Smash would miss them (they have to be stationary and not bounce as he can hit the bounce). I noticed in 1.1.4 he can now hit Fox for example after a missed tech with Up Smash.

Another character I had issues hitting with Up Smash before was Lucario after he landed on stage with Extreme Speed (Up B) and suffered the end lag.
 

S_B

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Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.
It's never been said anywhere that this will be the LAST balance patch, so take some solace in that.

Also, Nairo and Aba basically sat Sakurai down in that last tournament and showed him just how stupid some of the characters in this game truly are. Both Nairo and Aba feared that they had written the nerf ticket for MK and ZSS.

Bowser, Gdorf and D3 are all sitting in a bar somewhere right now, drinking away their woes. :(
 

Ambler

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It's never been said anywhere that this will be the LAST balance patch, so take some solace in that.
It's been heavily implied in (translated) interviews with Sakurai that this is the last update, but I really wouldn't be surprised if we get one more balance patch to even everything out/fix any bugs that might arise.
 

Chiroz

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It's been heavily implied in (translated) interviews with Sakurai that this is the last update, but I really wouldn't be surprised if we get one more balance patch to even everything out/fix any bugs that might arise.
No, it's been heavily implied that it's the latest content patch. There can still be purely balance patches.
 

Aunt Jemima

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There's going to be one last patch. Despite how you feel about the Smash development team, they aren't stupid. They aren't going to release two characters with never before seen mechanics and expect them to have absolutely no bugs or possible balance issues. Whether or not the true last patch will have balancing changes is kinda debatable, but there's a 99% chance we're getting another patch.
 

jmjb

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it was confirmed there's still a stage slot for 1 more stage. even tho they said this is the end, they clearly added a slot for 1 more stage, so I'm getting mixes signals here, Sakurai.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Yeah, there's going to be at least one more patch. If I had to guess, there will probably be two: one by May after Corrin and Bayonetta have had some time to settle and one by August after EVO and the other big summer tournaments. Keep in mind that they just got to Roy with buffs and usually buff dumps only happen to 5-6 characters at a time. Ryu, Cloud, Corrin, and Bayo-mayo could still see adjustments in the future.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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It's window dressing. They might die 2-3% faster. Just a trivial change put in so Sakurai can pretend he's trying to balance the game.
Some other aspects might also change as a result given they all lost weight.

Does it mean much in the end though? Not really.

Most significant thing so far is what happened to Marth and Lucina.
 

JayZee1700

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After testing on each character, I don't know if it was affected in 1.1.4, but DK seems to have been changed:

-DK has an ALMOST true combo at ~15%-25% (~10%-15% on lighter characters) by Cargo U-Throw to Dair/Nair. (Don't jump until you go for Dair.)
If they air dodge, follow and punish.
If you spike them, either Up Air to Up Tilt to Nair if they miss the tech.
If you Nair, follow up with Bair strings, or attempt a jab lock. Jab lock only works if they miss the tech on a short hop Bair. (I normally grab again after the Nair. Also, only a couple of fast-fallers were able to escape.)

This can develop a good 50% to 60% of damage, from there a Cargo U-Throw to U-Air kills after 2-4 hits.

This could have already existed, but its almost a true combo, as only a Sheik or a Captain Falcon with good DI and reaction speed got out fast enough to shield or tech.
 

Darklink401

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sheik/fusin/game.bin should be the disappearance explosion of Vanish, if I'm not mistaken.

Damage, knockback, angle, and hitbox size all seem the same to me though.
What about the windbox?
 

meleebrawler

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There's going to be one last patch. Despite how you feel about the Smash development team, they aren't stupid. They aren't going to release two characters with never before seen mechanics and expect them to have absolutely no bugs or possible balance issues. Whether or not the true last patch will have balancing changes is kinda debatable, but there's a 99% chance we're getting another patch.
Opinions of a patch vary wildly by individual. If your favourite character(s) get nerfed/don't get buffed or vice versa for hated ones then for you it's a bad patch. Only a consensus by a significant part of the playerbase can truly determine the worth of a patch.

Yeah, there's going to be at least one more patch. If I had to guess, there will probably be two: one by May after Corrin and Bayonetta have had some time to settle and one by August after EVO and the other big summer tournaments. Keep in mind that they just got to Roy with buffs and usually buff dumps only happen to 5-6 characters at a time. Ryu, Cloud, Corrin, and Bayo-mayo could still see adjustments in the future.
Don't you just find it kind of suspicious that most of the confirmed buffs are to Fire Emblem characters on the day a new Fire Emblem character is released?

Kind of adds credence to the whole "test only a handful of characters per patch" theory.
 
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Doctor Luigi

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it was confirmed there's still a stage slot for 1 more stage. even tho they said this is the end, they clearly added a slot for 1 more stage, so I'm getting mixes signals here, Sakurai.
Whait what?
 

Darklink401

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Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.
The game is still VERY well balanced overall. If this was the last patch I'd be satisfied.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.
idk, the Marth and Lucina changes are potentially pretty significant. Particularly for Marth: more true comboing out of Jab, more killing options in a range where he didn't have one.

They might actually be usable! Barely. At least Marth. Roy's buffs aren't as big but probably help his game plan a fair bit. We've seen what landing lag reduction has done for Robin and Ike in the past.
 

Lavani

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What about the windbox?
That's in a different file, but is also intact. First thing I checked after patching.

Vanish looks weird in the files because the actual vanish is a transcendent projectile (gets its own file) while the reappearance hitbox/windbox are tied to Sheik instead.
 
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Masonomace

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Shulk got an air slash buff, it has more horizontal distance. Multiple people confirmed this for me on Reddit, so I'm not sure why it isn't there.
I too claimed & thought that Air Slash's startup horizontal range got longer, but I was wrong. I re-did the testings & had a list of ranges for Shulk's moves. Fthrow had a farther range than Air Slash grounded first hit pre-patch, & post-patch Fthrow still has a farther range that Air Slash. Sorry about that.
 

TimeChain

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Did somebody already confirmed that Marth/Lucina's Dancing Blade feels faster when linking hits? I don't see it on the Patch Notes. I'm gonna test again to make sure.

Yeah, so far...not many changes. Kinda disappointed but hey, we got big buffs to my mains so I'm somewhat satisfied :D
 

Bowserboy3

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Just more clarification on Falco's Up Smash here...

It was nigh impossible to be able to hit a crouching opponent in 1.1.3 on 3DS... so I cheated...

I used Mega Man, and made him get hit by a Poison Mushroom to shrink him down. Needless to say, 1.1.3 Up Smash would miss him. In 1.1.4, Poison Mushroom Mega Man WOULD get hit by Up Smash.

Also, I decided to see if it would hit missed techs too. On a missed tech Mega Man, in 1.1.3, Up Smash would miss, but in 1.1.4, it would hit.

Overall, a pretty sweet buff for Falco!
 

Gunla

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For those of you wondering why there's a lack of recent changes in the past few hours, keep in mind that I was up till 5 AM and needed to sleep. I'll try to update when I can throughout the day (nighttime will be the most stable part of the day for me).

And yes, Falco's been added. Will get to his changes when I can.
 
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LancerStaff

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I'm just thinking... The top 3 weight nerf wasn't so you could kill outright with a smash or something faster, it's more for killing/launching with a random tilt/aerial at later percents. That's where you'll see the difference, not Warlock Punching them 3% sooner.
 

JayZee1700

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As people say that they are disappointed from the final changes, but I feel ok with it. I keep finding interesting things here and there. I found most of DK's reliable combos a lot easier to pull off. Might have to do with range of DI being smaller when using Carg-Up Throw, making it really easy to bait air dodges and/or up airs to another dimension. I'm relatively satisfied with the outcome, based on the effects on my mains.
 

meleebrawler

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We also have to consider that relatively speaking, not a lot of time has passed between now and the Cloud patch. Like, three months or so? People were probably freaking out because this may have been the last patch and expected more than they should have out of a small time frame.

Now that there's no more DLC deadlines the patch(es) can come with more free timing with more balancing done.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Link doesn't need it. He's fantastic in the competitive scene and he has amazing combos. They may not be true combos, but staying up close, Link can punish most anything as long as they are not Sonic or Rosalina... or really the top 7 characters in the game.

I really liked this patch. No big changes. No characters really need them except Samus with her melee game and Palutena. To me, this was a great patch. Pretty much everyone is good. The only changes I really wanted was to have a slight bit of lag on ZSS' UAir and decrease the range on Sheik's FAir. That's it.

Also, anyone find anything with Cloud? I can't test it against a previous patch, but it feels like nothing is changed on him. Anyone else?
Many characters needed help and didn't get it. :4marth: and :4lucina: got a lot of what they needed. :4feroy:,:4littlemac:, and :4bowserjr: got some help. :4charizard::4dedede::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4samus::4zelda: and maybe :4shulk: needed help and got zip. That's 5 out of 14 getting anything, with really only :4marth: getting enough to make a difference competitively, so he's fixed up 1 out of 14. :4sheik::4zss: and :rosalina: got the most trivial of nerfs, and I suppose :4myfriends: and :4tlink: will have a slightly easier time now in tourney, but there are a lot of characters getting left behind and passed over for even QOL stuff.
 

arbustopachon

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So do we know anything charizard changes?
It has been theorized in the zard boards that his d-throw might have less knockback scaling, some people have also said that he might have gotten an airspeed buff.

These two changes would align with his changes in the data dump, but we haven't confirmed anything yet.
They might be just placebo and wishful thinking tho.
 
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Tizio Random

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Guys, I was fighting against Corrin and Bayonetta and Luma smashes/aerials seems to clank with every attack. Are you sure nothing was changed in the way he interacts or am I crazy? Also, a Luma Fsmash clanked with Captain Falcon jab or ftilt, don't remember.
 

Vipermoon

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Well, I have been testing a few of the moves that Marth might have had increased range on, most likely due to their tipper hitbox sizes receiving an increase or something. Using Vipermoon Vipermoon 's assumptions, I tested the range on those moves. They were... (using one 1.1.3 3ds and one 1.1.4 3ds):

Dtilt
Fair
Shield Breaker
Ftilt
Nair
Dsmash

Of those, I can say that Dtilt, Fair and Nair have a slight increase in their reach. Though small, it's noticable enough to not be human error. Shield Breaker, I could find no increase at all, and Ftilt was negligible, so I am going to put that down to human error. It's possible that Shield Breaker and Ftilt did get a slight increase, but I just couldn't confirm it. I will post the result of it here when I get round to it... DSMASH RESULT: After testing, it is either a similar result to Ftilt, or no change by my testing.

I have comparisons for all the moves with increases, in image form. However, I would end up with multiple posts in this thread, and will most likely get an infraction for double posts, so I will wait and create a short video/slideshow showing the changes when I get home and post it to this thread.

It is also possible that some of his other moves also got similar increases in reach, but I am taking Vipermoon Vipermoon 's word for it, and assuming that these were the only moves.

For now, I'll leave you guys with one set of images; Forward Air on 1.1.3, and 1.1.4. Look at Marth's front foot in relation to the stripes on the ground. The 1.1.4 one is further back, hence, more range.


Ftilt is very obvious. It is the biggest one.

Put C-stick to attack and against Megaman holding his metal blade (he remains completely still) inch forward until you phantom/spark whiff the Ftilt). You'll see that the hitbox is now 'disjointed' way past the sword. Move to where Ftilt will just barely hit. Fsmash misses (make sure you don't stutter step). It shouldn't even phantom, it just misses.

Ftilt was notorious for having less range than Fsmash. It used to be his second longest range A attack.

More proof? The dead zone on the end of Ftilt's sword trail is 'less dead' if you try it on someone below a BF platform. This is because the tipper hitbox got a lot bigger.

I have exact range numbers using precise measurement along Smashville's white dots but I'd have to do a lot of explaining first. Better off waiting for the hitbox numbers.
 
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S_B

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For those of you wondering why there's a lack of recent changes in the past few hours, keep in mind that I was up till 5 AM and needed to sleep. I'll try to update when I can throughout the day (nighttime will be the most stable part of the day for me).

And yes, Falco's been added. Will get to his changes when I can.
You're a trooper. :)

And on the subject of this being the last DLC patch, I'm honestly quite confused as to WHY that is...

I mean, characters are very difficult to build, model, and balance, sure....

But stages? MUCH easier, and they have SSB64, Melee, and Brawl to take stages from if they want.

And even easier to make are Mii costumes, which people will still buy and only require checking to make sure they don't clip on the various Miis.

AND EASIER STILL would be more stage music for sale!

I'm confused as to why they're shutting off the money faucet this early. I understand not wanting to need to balance more characters, but they have so many stages, costumes, and musical selections they could sell that they're just missing the opportunity, here...
 
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New_Dumal

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What about Zelda's weight ?
I'm sorry if I'm not the first one to ask, but I thinks it's a obvious change to come, because Sheik/Zelda had the same weight before (because are the same person)...
Now Zelda is 1 heavier than Sheik ?
 

meleebrawler

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You're a trooper. :)

And on the subject of this being the last DLC patch, I'm honestly quite confused as to WHY that is...

I mean, characters are very difficult to build, model, and balance, sure....

But stages? MUCH easier, and they have all SSB64, Melee, and Brawl to take stages from if they want.

And even easier to make are Mii costumes, which people will still buy and only require checking to make sure they don't clip on the various Miis.

AND EASIER STILL would be more stage music for sale!

I'm confused as to why they're shutting off the money faucet this early. I understand not wanting to need to balance more characters, but they have so many stages, costumes, and musical selections they could sell that they're just missing the opportunity, here...
*cough* Smash NX *cough*
 
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