Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Bowserboy3]

I held it normally, I tested him and mario side by side, it goes just about as high as mario

Unfortunately I can confirm this is false. I just tested Doc's Up B side by side with my 1.1.3 3DS and my 1.1.4 3DS and they both went exactly the same height, meaning no change

 

[HeavyLobster]

I noticed that the members of the Smash 4 triumvirate ( ) were each given a 1-unit weight decrease. How significant is this, exactly? Does this just mean that they're very slightly easier to toss around, or is it more than that?

It's window dressing. They might die 2-3% faster. Just a trivial change put in so Sakurai can pretend he's trying to balance the game.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's window dressing. They might die 2-3% faster. Just a trivial change put in so Sakurai can pretend he's trying to balance the game.

It might be more significant later on, though.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Hmm, I can confirm the running speed change and the up smash buff. Not sure why everyone is saying no to those. Even if Falco does not have changes, you should put him on the list.
What a horrible patch overall though.

 

[JohnKnight416]

This Patch is looking very disappointing to me. Like I don't see any changes to the characters who need to be buffed so they won't have many bad matchups. Such as how Link struggle with his speed and frame data. Like he's one of those characters that I know who has difficultly against certain characters such as ZSS ans Sheik in competitive play and that he doesn't have any reliable combos at all.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Shulk got an air slash buff, it has more horizontal distance. Multiple people confirmed this for me on Reddit, so I'm not sure why it isn't there.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can anyone confirm that Lucina got the same changes that Marth got for Jab, Ftilt and Dsmash?

I can confirm that Lucina did get the same buffs as Marth to Jab, Ftilt, Utilt, and Dsmash in terms of their duration.

Yes, Utilt. Utilt is 33 frames duration, down from 36 for the both of them (which is exactly the same duration as Ftilt).

This is quite exciting for Marth actually, because it grants him a relatively safe, quicker grounded killing option. It safes him fishing about with Fsmash at percents when Ftilt will do the job just as good.

 

[bubbyrules1]

I think Yoshi's Down Throw got decreased ending lag. I'm able to extremely reliably combo into Up Air now. Anybody able to test this?

 

[Radical Larry]

This Patch seems very disappointing to me. Like there aren't any buffs to characters such as Link with his speed and frame data. Like he's one of those characters that I know who struggles in competitive play because he doesn't have any reliable combos.

First of all, I've tested out Link's speed and it seems to almost perfectly match Peach's instead of being truly slower. His speed might be around 1.40 to 1.41 at least, but not too close to Peach because it's almost.

And two, Link has a lot of reliable combos, sleeper. Bomb setups, D-Throw setups, U-Tilt setups, D-Tilt setups all into various attacks and aerials. Jab can go into Spin Attack, Boomerang into N-Air/F-Air, Bombs into F-Air, N-Air into a roll then F-Tilt/F-Smash or a Dash Attack, U-Air into U-Air, those three are just examples for Link's combo ability and are decent examples of his long library of combos.

I think Yoshi's Down Throw got decreased ending lag. I'm able to extremely reliably combo into Up Air now. Anybody able to test this?

You could always do that in the first place.

 

[Kamikam70]

So, seems like Lucina and Marth got buffed a bit. Can't be bad, I guess!

Also, while they're not gonna become my mains anytime soon, Corrin and Bayonetta are extremely fun to play as.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Part of me feels like the S-tier placements on the tier list are the main reason for the weight drops. Of course, it's probably coincidental, since Rosalina probably would've gotten the weight nerf, even if she was put in the A-tier.

 

[Ulevo]

How significant are the up throw changes to Bowser. Out of all the change ls thus far this makes me shake my head the most. Will it affect his viability?

 

[lordvaati]

Not sure if placebo or not, but is it just me or are Villager's balloons WAY easier to hit now?

 

[Radical Larry]

How significant are the up throw changes to Bowser. Out of all the change ls thus far this makes me shake my head the most. Will it affect his viability?

It won't. He still kills before the throw "nerf" will affect him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

How significant are the up throw changes to Bowser. Out of all the change ls thus far this makes me shake my head the most. Will it affect his viability?

It works the same way except his U-Throw > UAir works at a tighter window (90-98 I think) and it also kills earlier because of this, although not as lenient.

Basically it's the same, just do it earlier.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Damn.

 

[John12346]

Bringing over information from Shaya regarding the Data Dump:
https://gist.github.com/shinyquagsire23/959d3f09a7bdc3cb89ce

Possible Hitbox Changes (Super Armor, Frames, Hitbox Durations, Damage, KB, etc)
C. Falcon, Falco, Ike, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Little Mac, Charizard, Lucina, Marth, Dark Pit, Roy, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Zelda

Possible Parameter Changes (Action End Frames, Intangibility Durations, Mobility Changes, Base Stats, etc)
Cloud, Diddy Kong, Falco, Fox, Kirby, Bowser Jr, Zard, Lucina, Marth, ROB, Rosalina, Toon Link, Wii Fit, Yoshi

Likely No Changes (Not 100%, but it's looking like it's the case)
Dedede, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Ganondorf, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Link, Lucario, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Mii Fighters, Mr. G&W, Ness, Olimar, Pacman, Palutena, Peach, Pikachu, Pit, Robin, Samus, Shulk, Sonic, Villager, Wario

In response to this, I checked out the link provided, and there appear to be TWO lines of differences dedicated to Sheik, while Zero Suit and Rosa have only one line each.

I guess for those of you hoping for something... more, that's news, huh?

 

[Eugene Wang]

It might be more significant later on, though.

Elaborate please? Has a small weight change had a big impact on viability before?

 

[Haggles]

Could someone check knockback angle on Sheik's forward air? It seems to have been lowered.

 

[link2702]

new fire emblem character gets added, all past fire emblem characters get buffs...

hmmm.....


*sigh* i really feel sorry for samus mains, smash4 has been extremely cruel to her and sakurai has constantly ignored her every single patch, despite her desperately needing some buffs.

all he has to do is decrease end lag on normal missiles, increase super missile knockback, give her her old Nair back, and give her a reliable jab and i'd be satisfied. Hell give her at least something....

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Has anyone been able to experiment on how quickly Corrin and Bayonetta can get KO'd? You can probably figure this out if you do the following:

• Make a custom Ganondorf with +85 attack, along with a custom Corrin and Bayonetta with +43 defense.
• Have Ganondorf use the Reverse Warlock Punch on Corrin and Bayonetta while they're on the center of any Omega Form stage.
• +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch 1-hit KO'd +43 defense Mewtwo. If the attack does not 1-hit KO +43 defense Corrin and +43 defense Bayonetta, then they're both heavier than Mewtwo.

 

[lordvaati]

question: can anyone confirm if Peach can still do her Uair reset combo on Sheik?

 

[Mellos]

Falcos Speed is NOT buffed. He and Olimar are still the same speed, Falco is still slower than Ike. So, placebo much

 

[Bowserboy3]

I saw some people reporting about a Falco run speed buff. Unfortunately, I am getting this as false. I'm doing side by side comparisons with 1.1.3 and 1.1.4 vesions of the 3DS, and there is no change whatsoever.

However, I have tested the Up Smash buff, and that is completely true. I tested it using said versions of the 3DS game, using Mega Man as my crash test dummy, attacking him from his starting position in training on Omega Corneria.

1.1.3 - Started killing at 139/140% uncharged.

1.1.4 - Started killing at 128% uncharged.

 

[Mellos]

I saw some people reporting about a Falco run speed buff. Unfortunately, I am getting this as false. I'm doing side by side comparisons with 1.1.3 and 1.1.4 vesions of the 3DS, and there is no change whatsoever.

However, I have tested the Up Smash buff, and that is completely true. I tested it using said versions of the 3DS game, using Mega Man as my crash test dummy, attacking him from his starting position in training on Omega Corneria.

1.1.3 - Started killing at 139/140% uncharged.

1.1.4 - Started killing at 128% uncharged.

Also: UpSmash now hits lower crouching targets, I think it didn´t do this before. From infront AND behind Falco. Might want to doublecheck this as well (since I don´t have the 1.1.3 at hand)

 

[Flamecircle]

In response to this, I checked out the link provided, and there appear to be TWO lines of differences dedicated to Sheik, while Zero Suit and Rosa have only one line each.

I guess for those of you hoping for something... more, that's news, huh?

I think those are file diffs, not just line diffs. Any number of things could have changed inside that one file.

Though honestly, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm sure Sheik was suspect number 1 for testing, and if anything else was found someone would have announced it by now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also: UpSmash now hits lower crouching targets, I think it didn´t do this before. From infront AND behind Falco. Might want to doublecheck this as well (since I don´t have the 1.1.3 at hand)

I shall test this. Lower crouching opponents... you got any examples of who it couldn't hit in situations like this before so I can do proper tests?

 

[AvacadoEth]

Hey, this might sound random, but can somebody check if the screen shake on Roy's uncharged flare blade was reduced? I think it was, but it might just be placebo

 

[The_progenitor]

This is probably a placebo, but Marth feels a bit faster during combos than he did before. I don't think his run or air speed were changed though. It almost feels as if his air acceleration increased a bit, aka it feels like he moves much faster initially off an initial jump and thus reaches his max airspeed faster? Maybe? I don't know though. It could just feel that way as an effect from the already existing buffs.

 

[Mellos]

I shall test this. Lower crouching opponents... you got any examples of who it couldn't hit in situations like this before so I can do proper tests?

In 1.1.3 It didn´t work on crouching Kirby and G&W, now it (should) work. Atleast from the front.

 

[Radical Larry]

Elaborate please? Has a small weight change had a big impact on viability before?

Well, seeing as the weights went down a unit, a character like Rosalina might have more trouble with survivability. While I'm not certain of it in the long run, a unit of weight lost is theoretically significant. Look at Yoshi from Brawl to this game specifically, where Yoshi was once 106, he's now 104, the same weight as Link and C. Falcon. While the two games are different mechanics, 2 units down from weight can mean a lot, and it just means your survivability is lowered. This specifically didn't affect Yoshi's viability since Yoshi has had tremendous buffs, but...

In this game, Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina having less weight can potentially make them easier to kill, but more than just killing them at 2% to 3% damage less. I theorize that for this game, them losing weight by a unit means they are going to be KO'd around 5% to 9% damage less now. However, a good way to test it is by going through both versions of the game and testing out their death damages with Puff's rest.

In fact...

In 1.1.3 and before, Puff's Rest will kill:
Rosalina at 44%
Sheik at 47%
Zero Suit Samus at 49%

This is on training mode, so go on training mode, the center of the stage of Omega Pokemon Stadium and then use Rest at damages lower than the aforementioned. Find the maximum damage that it can kill for Puff's Rest this time around, and we get out answer.

If not that, scatter around and find KO damages through Mario's U-Smash, which is also a base.

 

[Rawbinator]

Has anyone been able to experiment on how quickly Corrin and Bayonetta can get KO'd? You can probably figure this out if you do the following:

• Make a custom Ganondorf with +85 attack, along with a custom Corrin and Bayonetta with +43 defense.
• Have Ganondorf use the Reverse Warlock Punch on Corrin and Bayonetta while they're on the center of any Omega Form stage.
• +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch 1-hit KO'd +43 defense Mewtwo. If the attack does not 1-hit KO +43 defense Corrin and +43 defense Bayonetta, then they're both heavier than Mewtwo.

What's the purpose of doing this over just testing kill percents for a smash attack or kill throw?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What's the purpose of doing this over just testing kill percents for a smash attack or kill throw?

Another reason for this is to see if Warlock Punch has been modified by the newest update.

 

[S_B]

Bayonetta has a triple jump glitch. If you jump, then double jump and IMMEDIATELY cancels it with Witch Twist, she can double jump again (and Witch Twist again too obviously.) Nairo discovered it on stream.

He shouldn't have.

He may have just put the patch into production that will gut ZSS (like Nairo himself was afraid of).

Also, Bowser's Uthrow change is a mixed bag...

On one hand, he KOs ~5% earlier on most characters, but the guaranteed followup ends 20-25% earlier.

Now, If Bowser worked like Sheik (ie doing 3-5% at a time), he'd be fine, but the problem is that Bowser does damage in increments of 15-20% normally, meaning it's very easy to overshoot the safe range of where you want to grab them and can still confirm the KO.

And this really, REALLY sucks because actually LANDING the kill was Bowser's biggest issue before 1.1.3. We'll see how it goes, but this change is very confusing for Bowser players. He was in a great place before and now we're going to have to fish for a grab VERY hard when the opponent is in the narrow range where we can follow up...

 

[Radical Larry]

Another reason for this is to see if Warlock Punch has been modified by the newest update.

Which is nutty when Ganondorf's Warlock Punch can potentially be a OHKO move. (Just with the right amount of rage though)

It's a good thing it's going to be done on training mode, but can't we just weigh the characters on the 3DS version of the game to others? We have that one stage that allows for that. Or we can do it on...that Pikmin stage...whatever...on the Wii U version.

 

[Game7a1]

In this game, Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina having less weight can potentially make them easier to kill, but more than just killing them at 2% to 3% damage less. I theorize that for this game, them losing weight by a unit means they are going to be KO'd around 5% to 9% damage less now. However, a good way to test it is by going through both versions of the game and testing out their death damages with Puff's rest.

In fact...

In 1.1.3 and before, Puff's Rest will kill:
Rosalina at 44%
Sheik at 47%
Zero Suit Samus at 49%

This is on training mode, so go on training mode, the center of the stage of Omega Pokemon Stadium and then use Rest at damages lower than the aforementioned. Find the maximum damage that it can kill for Puff's Rest this time around, and we get out answer.

If not that, scatter around and find KO damages through Mario's U-Smash, which is also a base.

I actually did some Rest KOs on the said characters.
Rosalina: 44% (Yep, not even at 43% will kill, but it's close).
Sheik: 46%
ZSS: 48%
Just, on average, a 1% drop. Not significant. It might be better to test horizontal KOs rather than vertical KOs.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I actually did some Rest KOs on the said characters.
Rosalina: 44% (Yep, not even at 43% will kill, but it's close).
Sheik: 46%
ZSS: 48%
Just, on average, a 1% drop. Not significant. It might be better to test horizontal KOs rather than vertical KOs.

Speaking of which, because of those weight nerfs, someone should test if Cloud can KO Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Rosalina sooner with Finishing Touch now.

 

[Radical Larry]

I actually did some Rest KOs on the said characters.
Rosalina: 44% (Yep, not even at 43% will kill, but it's close).
Sheik: 46%
ZSS: 48%
Just, on average, a 1% drop. Not significant. It might be better to test horizontal KOs rather than vertical KOs.

Alright, test out the Little Mac KO damages, Omega Boxing Ring.

Rosalina's at 15% damage.
ZSS and Sheik are at 17% damage.

And if not that, test out some of Ganondorf's Warlock Punch KO damages. It's usually in the 5% to 10% range.

 

[jespoke]

Well, seeing as the weights went down a unit, a character like Rosalina might have more trouble with survivability. While I'm not certain of it in the long run, a unit of weight lost is theoretically significant. Look at Yoshi from Brawl to this game specifically, where Yoshi was once 106, he's now 104, the same weight as Link and C. Falcon. While the two games are different mechanics, 2 units down from weight can mean a lot, and it just means your survivability is lowered. This specifically didn't affect Yoshi's viability since Yoshi has had tremendous buffs, but...

In this game, Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina having less weight can potentially make them easier to kill, but more than just killing them at 2% to 3% damage less. I theorize that for this game, them losing weight by a unit means they are going to be KO'd around 5% to 9% damage less now. However, a good way to test it is by going through both versions of the game and testing out their death damages with Puff's rest.

In fact...

In 1.1.3 and before, Puff's Rest will kill:
Rosalina at 44%
Sheik at 47%
Zero Suit Samus at 49%

This is on training mode, so go on training mode, the center of the stage of Omega Pokemon Stadium and then use Rest at damages lower than the aforementioned. Find the maximum damage that it can kill for Puff's Rest this time around, and we get out answer.

If not that, scatter around and find KO damages through Mario's U-Smash, which is also a base.

Really, i can't test anything because i dont have my gamepad charger to connect my Wii U here to update. But i can tell you that 1 weight amounts to no more than 1% earlier death in most cases. 2-3% is possible on particularly high base knockback, but you are not gonna find more. Just think about that Bowser weighs 52 more than ZSS, less than the difference in their KO percents for many things.

 

[Goombo]

I theorize that for this game, them losing weight by a unit means they are going to be KO'd around 5% to 9% damage less now.

So Jigglypuff being 60 weightunits lighter than Bowser means she dies about about 300-540% earlier than Bowser?

 

[Lavani]

In response to this, I checked out the link provided, and there appear to be TWO lines of differences dedicated to Sheik, while Zero Suit and Rosa have only one line each.

I guess for those of you hoping for something... more, that's news, huh?

sheik/fusin/game.bin should be the disappearance explosion of Vanish, if I'm not mistaken.

Damage, knockback, angle, and hitbox size all seem the same to me though.