Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Bowserboy3]

Ftilt is very obvious. It is the biggest one.

Put C-stick to attack and against Megaman holding his metal blade (he remains completely still) inch forward until you phantom/spark whiff the Ftilt). You'll see that the hitbox is now 'disjointed' way past the sword. Move to where Ftilt will just barely hit. Fsmash misses (make sure you don't stutter step). It shouldn't even phantom, it just misses.

Ftilt was notorious for having less range than Fsmash. It used to be his second longest range A attack.

More proof? The dead zone on the end of Ftilt's sword trail is 'less dead' if you try it on someone below a BF platform. This is because the tipper hitbox got a lot bigger.

I have exact range numbers using precise measurement along Smashville's white dots but I'd have to do a lot of explaining first. Better off waiting for the hitbox numbers.

I'll have a better check later on!

I'd appreciate it if you could also get some proof on these too. Two bits of proof are more reliable than one after all!

 

[HeavyLobster]

*cough* Smash NX *cough*

SSB4 Turbo? Or some sort of Smash collection. Or both. Or it's fake.

 

[ReroRero]

sheik/fusin/game.bin should be the disappearance explosion of Vanish, if I'm not mistaken.

Damage, knockback, angle, and hitbox size all seem the same to me though.

Maybe she has more vulnerability frame

 

[nedskii-]

let's not forget Mega Man

 

[DungeonMaster]

This patch was very large. Really large in MB size. But surprisingly little has changed, at least from my perspective.
I've looked at hitstun variations and I see none from pre-patch, but something rather significant must have changed.

 

[jmjb]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

 

[Zankoku]

This patch was very large. Really large in MB size. But surprisingly little has changed, at least from my perspective.
I've looked at hitstun variations and I see none from pre-patch, but something rather significant must have changed.

Bayonetta, Corrin, Umbra Clock Tower, and a bunch of songs were added in the patch. Buying the DLC is actually just buying an unlock code for those characters/stages.

 

[FallofBrawl]

It's most likely a vulnerable frame or two on Sheiks up b, iirc her vulnerability prepatch was ~18 frames.

 

[S_B]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

Thought I'd love KBG tests on Bowser's moves first...

 

[Tizio Random]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

As I said the page before: can you test how Luma attacks interact with other hitboxes? It feels like is now treated like a complete projectile. It's strage but maybe it's placebo.

 

[arbustopachon]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

If posible could you please check for diferences in charizard's down throw knockback growth? We currently don't know anything about charizard's changes. This would be really helpful for the zard boards.

 

[UberMadman]

@Liberation I can't comment this on the actual 1.1.4 patch notes thread, but there is an error on the Bowser Jr. section. It lists the "Ground Dash" of Bowser Jr.'s side special as being buffed to 7 damage up from 4, but that is incorrect; the move does 4 OR 7 damage depending on whether you hold forward to shift into low gear or not after initiating the move. This was true before the patch and is true now. However, the spinout buff from 8 to 12 damage is correct, and while I personally have been able to find changes to fair, supposedly that information has been corroborated.

 

[Shadow_13]

Many characters needed help and didn't get it. and got a lot of what they needed. ,, and got some help. and maybe needed help and got zip. That's 5 out of 14 getting anything, with really only getting enough to make a difference competitively, so he's fixed up 1 out of 14. and got the most trivial of nerfs, and I suppose and will have a slightly easier time now in tourney, but there are a lot of characters getting left behind and passed over for even QOL stuff.

Honestly I use Link, Marth, Samus, and WFT in Tourney. Sometimes Lucina. Marth and Lucina didn't NEED the buff, but I'm happy they did. Yes the fattys need some help, but they are not bad by any means. They are still promising just like Jiggles. Zelda is completely underrated. I've shown up top 8 the two times I used Zelda in a 50 man tournament. I really only play Zelda for fun. She could use some less lag, but again... not bad. Shulk... again... not bad. Against the top 10, yeah he is not great, but that should not be our comparison factor. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa didn't really NEED nerfs, but oh well (EXCEPT ZSS Uair). Ike and Toon Link again did not NEED buffs.

Yes this was a small patch, but this is what we get and I am fine with this. Maybe this comes with maining a character everybody used to think was horrendous, but this game is fine.

 

[Flamecircle]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

The most relevant thing is probably to test literally everything Sheik does.

 

[Cook]

Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.

Are you serious? Melee was WAAAAYYYY less balanced, and 15 years later it's more popular than ever. With your whiny attitude I hope you do quit the game because you're making the community worse.

 

[Vipermoon]

alright guys, I have my wii u on 1.1.4 and my buddies wii u on 1.1.3, I have a wavebird and 2 receivers, what do you want me to test?

Three things please:

Compare what happens when Marth Ftilts and then immediately walks the other way.

Compare what happens when Marth does a backwards short hop and keeps walking after he lands. Basically, short hop while holding backwards and keep holding backwards after he lands so he turns around and walks.

Look at Marth's walking acceleration in general.

This stuff is obviously all related. Marth is looking to have the same weird walking boosts that Roy gets.

Thanks.

 

[John12346]

For those of you wondering why there's a lack of recent changes in the past few hours, keep in mind that I was up till 5 AM and needed to sleep. I'll try to update when I can throughout the day (nighttime will be the most stable part of the day for me).

And yes, Falco's been added. Will get to his changes when I can.

No problem, I'm sure we all appreciate the work you're doing for this. Just take your time as necessary, eh?

Although I am most curious as to what this change to Sheik's Vanish explosion could possibly be.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honestly I use Link, Marth, Samus, and WFT in Tourney. Sometimes Lucina. Marth and Lucina didn't NEED the buff, but I'm happy they did. Yes the fattys need some help, but they are not bad by any means. They are still promising just like Jiggles. Zelda is completely underrated. I've shown up top 8 the two times I used Zelda in a 50 man tournament. I really only play Zelda for fun. She could use some less lag, but again... not bad. Shulk... again... not bad. Against the top 10, yeah he is not great, but that should not be our comparison factor. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa didn't really NEED nerfs, but oh well (EXCEPT ZSS Uair). Ike and Toon Link again did not NEED buffs.

Yes this was a small patch, but this is what we get and I am fine with this. Maybe this comes with maining a character everybody used to think was horrendous, but this game is fine.

Puff is not promising at all, just awkward to fight. Zelda has no neutral game. Dorf gets hard countered by half of the high tiers. Dedede is a gimmick. When you play a low tier week in and week out against people who know the MU you start to see how limited the character really is. It's clearly not Melee/Brawl where you can get free wins on low tiers just by rushing in and executing your normal gameplan, and you need to be aware of their tools, but once you are and know how to exploit them the characters become significantly less useful. Of course top 10 should be our comparison factor because that's what you see in tourney. Sheik very clearly does need nerfs. ZSS and Rosa could use them but are nowhere near as far above the rest and are somewhat counterpickable even if your character loses to them. Sheik loses to nobody.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lookng over what the Zard's have been chatting about on twitter/discord/facebook/skype.

Only things I can figure out and gather is this.

There is no % change anywhere in his moveset, this is near 100% certain.

Two speculations but unconfirmed things have been looked into but neither seem to be conclusive.

1. The angle of his Dthrow was changed to allow for more follow-ups. I've seen this pop up a few times but so far nothing has been confirmed if an angle was changed. (This is the one I have heard the most but still have no idea with it)

2. His airspeed was slightly upped, again unconfirmed and if this did happen it was very small.

Only other thing I could thing of is that they messed with his Usmash, again for the third or so time.

Otherwise I got nothing on what they changed with him if that datadump is correct. Those three are the main things I thing they might have changed.

Possible +1 to weight might have happened but eh, I'm still lost on this as I dig around and see what people could find with this.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I too claimed & thought that Air Slash's startup horizontal range got longer, but I was wrong. I re-did the testings & had a list of ranges for Shulk's moves. Fthrow had a farther range than Air Slash grounded first hit pre-patch, & post-patch Fthrow still has a farther range that Air Slash. Sorry about that.

Welp, then RIP Shulk for smash 4

 

[Violet Broregarde]

If I may ask, how exactly does the program you're using to determine frame data changes work? Is it a generalized diff program, and you're interpreting the diff later, or is it something else?

 

[Heart of Ice]

Ice Climbers Glitch from 1.1.3 is still in.
shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_e_xf3ftPc

This allowed you to control two characters with one controller (so you don't need to shell out money for a wavebird). It only works on the Wii U version and it requires an amiibo.

I love this glitch and I am so glad it wasn't removed!

Also, Sheik, Zero Suit, and Rosalina got really stuffed by this patch. They might even be bottom tier now.

 

[LancerStaff]

Same situation with Dark Pit... Literally no clue what's different. Tried and tried all the obvious to no avail, still unsure if RJF was changed or not.

Like, I'll take some freakin' placebo now because I have no leads.

 

[Knucklessg1]

Can anyone confirm Falco's up b goes higher? I get just about the same height as Fox's up b. I was able to recover from really far down on FD where as before he wouldn't ledge snap, now he does.

Charizard doesn't seem to have an airspeed buff, at least it didn't feel like it. The Downthrow does seem to have less knockback at higher percentages though, which allows for an up air follow up that's a little more reliable.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Unless it's something pretty minor, Kirby's only changes seem to be the Copy Ability attributes (Bayonetta & Corrin added, Roy and Ike changed).

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

Can someone do me a favor. I'd like to try to confirm something even though there are apparently no changes to Ganondorf. What is the kill percent on Mario at the ledge of Battlefield from Dark Dive's uppercut? If I tested it correctly in 1.13 it kills at 194%, but I have gotten confirmation from someone else that it now kills at 192%.

 

[The_progenitor]

I DO think Charizard's D-Throw was changed. I don't think it was scaling though. It more feels like a tighter angle. In the new patch, D-Throw -> Fly is a true combo up until the last hit stops reaching on sheik (according to training mode). I'm not sure if this wasn't already the case in the last patch though. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Stylo Ren]

Super disappointing patch so far. No buffs for characters who obviously need them (Jiggs, Samus, Zelda, etc), and only the most trivial of nerfs for characters who obviously need them (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS). Kinda makes me worried for the long-term viability of the game if this is truly the last patch.

Low tiers not being viable does not effect the viability of this game long term.
Every fighting game has low tiers.

 

[Jaaahsh]

Unless it's something pretty minor, Kirby's only changes seem to be the Copy Ability attributes (Bayonetta & Corrin added, Roy and Ike changed).

Just checked a 1.1.3 WiiU alongside a 1.1.4 WiiU. Kirby-Roy's neutral B does the same damage and knockback across both versions. Ditto for Kirby-Ike. So, the new version doesn't even reflect the copied character's damage buffs.

 

[Masonomace]

Can anyone confirm Falco's up b goes higher? I get just about the same height as Fox's up b. I was able to recover from really far down on FD where as before he wouldn't ledge snap, now he does.

I made a jump height rankings post found here showing UpB heights to characters from the ground & the air. Using a custom stage with a platform floor to drop-through, & have 27 platforms stacked 1 grid unit each in the Stage Builder. So:

Falco's Fire Bird went 13 platforms high from the ground, & 12 platforms from the air pre-patch. Now, Falco's Fire Bird goes 13 platforms high from the ground, & 12 platforms from the air. I don't see a change for Falco's Fire Bird in terms of height, but maybe something like the magnet hands got better? In any case, you'd want someone to do side-by-side testing with 1.1.3 vs 1.1.4 in real-time preferably if you want absolute confirmation.

 

[S_B]

I have a theory that the four who "lost weight" have just been subject to a "placeholder nerf".

These are the characters Sakurai is going to properly deal with at a later time, but for now, he figured he'd make this relatively safe change as a placeholder while he figures out what he actually wants to do with them later on.

They may very well regain that weight, but now that Aba and Nairo have opened his eyes to some of the things these characters can do at top level (and now that tier lists are out and about).

It should also be noted that Japan thinks Sonic is top tier, hence why he got the 1 unit "kiss of death" as well.

 

[Pinuzzo]

Just checked a 1.1.3 WiiU alongside a 1.1.4 WiiU. Kirby-Roy's neutral B does the same damage and knockback across both versions. Ditto for Kirby-Ike. So, the new version doesn't even reflect the copied character's damage buffs.

Does this happen to other buffed neutral Bs? For example, is Kirby-Mewtwo's Shadow Ball as big as Mewtwo's, or does Kirby-Ike's Eruption do as much damage as Ike's?


Also, would someone be able to weigh Yoshi and Falcon on the Pikmin stage to see if either of their weights were changed? We're still trying to figure out the parameter changes for both characters?

I have a theory that the four who "lost weight" have just been subject to a "placeholder nerf".

Who's the fourth? Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina...

 

[Zethoro]

"Oh no Bowser's combo KO throw doesn't work above 100% anymore, how will he kill with a throw now."
(the answer is Side B)

Yeah, that command grab with 1/5th the range of Bowser's pivot grab, sounds great.
(I'm not going to say the move is useless, but...really?)

 

[Meshima]

I re-checked all character's weight and can confirm that:

• Sheik 85->84
• ZSS 81->80
• Rozalina 78->77
• Sonic 95->94
• Ganondorf 112->113
• Kirby 77->79

+Zelda has 85, haven't changed.

 

[Ffamran]

And... all of this was answered while I was busy... still gonna ask and post anyway. Also, a screenshot would be really nice to show this.

I shall test this. Lower crouching opponents... you got any examples of who it couldn't hit in situations like this before so I can do proper tests?

Wii Fit Trainer's crouch: http://smashboards.com/threads/every-move-wii-fit-trainer-can-duck-under.423716/#post-20500945. Also, Luigi's SJP landing lag.

Eh... Found a random video... Up Smash Z-axis shenanigans with Luigi's Super Jump Punch landing animation: https://youtu.be/zekLwF70qUQ? Someone want to text this out since 3DS can't work 2 players for training mode.

Pre-1.1.4 observations...

So, a while back, I asked about this issue with Falco's Up Smash... I found out why.

A thread in the Wii Fit Trainer boards was a research on what moves WFT could crouch under and Falco's Up Smash was listed, so I got curious. So, checking Up Smash's hitbox, the first active hitbox at frame 8 isn't on the ground or anywhere near it. I didn't take a screenshot, but I'll update it later. For now, let's imagine a circle or a dial in Falco's body. Standing, Falco's legs would be at 270 degrees or 6 o'clock. When he uses Up Smash, the first hit involves his right leg at 0 or 360 degrees or 3 o'clock. His left leg is still facing the ground, so his legs form a right angle. 0 degrees or 3 o'clock is about Falco's waist level.

This explains why he can't hit WFT crouching or Luigi going through his Super Jump Punch landing animation. The question obviously is this a major issue? Not really since if you're aiming to hit ground level, Falco has other options like jab, face forward Utilt, angled down Ftilt, Dtilt, Side Smash, Down Smash, falling Nair, Fair's landing hit, frame perfect falling Bair, Dair, Falco Phantasm, and even Fire Bird. That being said, it would be nice if Falco could hit lower with his Up Smash since the animation does show Falco's heel sweeping at a lower level than the actual hitbox, except there's a problem...

Please note I don't know much about game development, so these following ideas might be nonsense. Assuming a hitbox must be called earlier, fixing this might involve speeding up Falco's Up Smash. While it isn't an abusive move or a terribly strong move, people might not like a high active frame and high damage move that is fairly fast getting fast. Granted, this hitbox would be purely for ground coverage, but sometimes, people just see numbers in black and white and might assume Falco's Up Smash is now way too fast. At worst, it might involve making it frame 5, but it could work as a frame 6 or 7 lower hitbox. The other option is "slowing" down Falco's Up Smash. This is something like slowing down the animation making the lower hitbox look like it fits the hit while retaining its 8 frame startup. Kind of like a reverse treatment to his Uair and Fair where the animation was sped up.

Can anyone confirm Falco's up b goes higher? I get just about the same height as Fox's up b. I was able to recover from really far down on FD where as before he wouldn't ledge snap, now he does.

From what I remember, Fire Bird travels horizontally about 2/5's? from one end of Final Destination and omega stages. Problem? I'm basing this on memory and I never tested it before on Mushroomy Kingdom and counted the the blocks to see how far he went. Right now? On omega Wily Castle (3DS), he's almost at halfway... so instead of 40%, he's at like 45% of the stage. I don't really know. We'd need a gif or screenshots showing the difference.

Anyway, an update for Falco's changes, Up Smash has two. @Liberation, when you have time, could you update the patch notes? Or better yet, we could just wait for the data-miners, so don't worry, Libby. So, I have two theories on what changed with Falco Up Smash hitbox. One: Falco's Up Smash is faster and two: Falco's Up Smash first hit has a larger or lower covering hitbox - from what used to only hit waist-level and say, shin-level and up. The first theory might anger some people, but thing is if it's faster, but only a "grounded hitbox", it's probably not going to matter if he's trying to hit you in the air. It does make sense in a way that it's only faster because another hitbox was added to cover lower. So, it could potentially be frame 5 - random low number -, but only because of its lower hitbox. The second theory is that it's still frame 8, but it has a lower hitbox. Pretty much it.

For Up Smash's second hit, I'm going to assume the knockback growth was increased. How much? I don't really know. Pre-1.1.4, it was 98 which is pretty respectable for a 12% hit. I'm going to guess it's in the 100's, but definitely below 110. Vertical and horizontal kill moves are different, so nobody cannot just look at his clean, 13% Bair which has 130 growth and say that Falco's second hit of Up Smash has 130 growth. I bet with 130 growth, his Up Smash would be killing around 80%. There's also the fact Bair has no base knockback for the clean hit while Up Smash does.

TL;DR: Up Smash 1's hitbox has been changed in some way i.e. increased lower hitbox or even reduced startup to accommodate the lower (new) hitbox and Up Smash 2's knockback (growth) has been increased from 98 to 100-something.

 

[The_progenitor]

I believe it IS charizard's angle. Down Throw -> Fly is now registering as a True Combo up through and including Kill Percent on Sheik, at least in Training Mode. I dont think it did that before, but I cant confirm.

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, that command grab with 1/5th the range of Bowser's pivot grab, sounds great.
(I'm not going to say the move is useless, but...really?)

It's pretty fair to point to Flying Slam as a kill option IMO - and actually, because U-throw knocks back further, we kill some characters earlier. The patch isn't all bad, it just tightened our kill %s somewhat fierce, so don't fret too much about it TBH.

 

[Radical Larry]

I re-checked all character's weight and can confirm that:

• Sheik 85->84
• ZSS 81->80
• Rozalina 78->77
• Sonic 95->94
• Ganondorf 112->113
• Kirby 77->79

+Zelda has 85, haven't changed.

Oh hey, can you check Link's dashing speed?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Ftilt is very obvious. It is the biggest one.

Put C-stick to attack and against Megaman holding his metal blade (he remains completely still) inch forward until you phantom/spark whiff the Ftilt). You'll see that the hitbox is now 'disjointed' way past the sword. Move to where Ftilt will just barely hit. Fsmash misses (make sure you don't stutter step). It shouldn't even phantom, it just misses.

Ftilt was notorious for having less range than Fsmash. It used to be his second longest range A attack.

More proof? The dead zone on the end of Ftilt's sword trail is 'less dead' if you try it on someone below a BF platform. This is because the tipper hitbox got a lot bigger.

I have exact range numbers using precise measurement along Smashville's white dots but I'd have to do a lot of explaining first. Better off waiting for the hitbox numbers.

I'm excited cus it was always weird that "attacks leave trails in the air" was supposed to be a focus/improvement in smash 4 but then things like marth's trails were pretty off. It seems like the visuals are the same, but like you said the visuals have less dead space. It's weird that ftilt has more horizontal reach than fsmash, but probably just due to tradition changing.

I think Lucina may have increased range too. I did feel that ftilt seemed to be reaching further because the visual of the trail was barely in reach of the opponent. Also I wonder if upsmash has increased hitboxes (shockwave and/or sword)? Pugwest said it does. Yesterday, I was charging an upsmash at the ledge (lucina's front foot was maybe 1-2 lengths of her foot away from the ledge), bayonetta used getup roll instead of standing getup, and my shockwave still connected. This ofc could just be that bayonetta has a shorter getup roll and/or shorter invincibility on her getup roll though.

I have no proof or anything but it's something to investigate.


Also there was a comparison of marth's fair on 3ds between 1.1.3 and 1.1.4. The foot is further back on the 1.1.4 picture but it also seems marth is lower in the air, and thus more horizontal to WFT. And since marth has the most horizontal reach somewhere when his sword is parallel to the ground, that could be affecting why it seems his fair has more range (or if fair did get more range, it could be making it look like it has more range than what was actually added)?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

@Liberation I can't comment this on the actual 1.1.4 patch notes thread, but there is an error on the Bowser Jr. section. It lists the "Ground Dash" of Bowser Jr.'s side special as being buffed to 7 damage up from 4, but that is incorrect; the move does 4 OR 7 damage depending on whether you hold forward to shift into low gear or not after initiating the move. This was true before the patch and is true now. However, the spinout buff from 8 to 12 damage is correct, and while I personally have been able to find changes to fair, supposedly that information has been corroborated.

I haven't updated yet and spinout already appears to do 12%?