Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Asdioh]

Are we sure that weight/Vanish knockback are the only changes Sheik received? There's something weird going on with Kirby's Needles.

Ancient patch from a long time ago: Kirby and Sheik had the same Needles.
Some patch later: Sheik Needles endlag was increased, but they forgot to change Kirby's. Kirby's Needles therefore had less lag.
Another patch after that: Kirby's Needles updated to reflect the nerf, now they both have the same endlag.
This patch: Kirby's Needles have less endlag than Sheik's once again.

Does this mean Sheik's Needles were nerfed again, or was the change to Kirby's Needles reverted? What's going on?

 

[Sinister Slush]

look, im not trying to be rude here.really im not,but comments like this are cluttering up the thread page.

Posts like these are cluttering the thread too. Let the staff handle it if it continues being a problem, otherwise if no warnings given than they obviously don't care enough to punish people.

 

[LancerStaff]

Zards d-throw used to kill mario at 386 in 3ds fd at the center stage. proof.

So they increased the knockback? I have no idea what is going on right now with this character :/

I'm on Omega Duck Hunt because the blastzone's smaller and grabbing Mario from the reset position instead of center stage. Forgot to mention that, sorry.

 

[Luig]

I think the change to sonic's weight that was mentioned isn't correct: I tested it with Rest, at 50% both Sonics hit the ground at the same time, and with Link's ftilt, at 60% there is no red trail and at 61% there is a red trail, for both versions.

Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I think the value is something else.....

 

[arbustopachon]

I'm on Omega Duck Hunt because the blastzone's smaller and grabbing Mario from the reset position instead of center stage. Forgot to mention that, sorry.

Ok, so i guess nothing changed and it was just placebo? Anyways thank you for labbing this.
I do wonder what were those changes in the data dump tho.

 

[jespoke]

I think the change to sonic's weight that was mentioned isn't correct: I tested it with Rest, at 50% both Sonics hit the ground at the same time, and with Link's ftilt, at 60% there is no red trail and at 61% there is a red trail, for both versions.

Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I think the value is something else.....

Try with something that kills at 150% and not 50%, there it should actually make a difference

 

[Lavani]

Hmm, it's not that then.

Might be base or knock back growth, though I am doubtful on that.

Looking into knockback might also be a good idea, less KBG would make followups connect easier/longer so it could be that

It's still 130KBG 70BKB.

Can you check the change on Zelda and see what it is?

Sorry, I don't know my way around effect.bin files.

Are we sure that weight/Vanish knockback are the only changes Sheik received? There's something weird going on with Kirby's Needles.

Ancient patch from a long time ago: Kirby and Sheik had the same Needles.
Some patch later: Sheik Needles endlag was increased, but they forgot to change Kirby's. Kirby's Needles therefore had less lag.
Another patch after that: Kirby's Needles updated to reflect the nerf, now they both have the same endlag.
This patch: Kirby's Needles have less endlag than Sheik's once again.

Does this mean Sheik's Needles were nerfed again, or was the change to Kirby's Needles reverted? What's going on?

I'm not sure what's up here; I'm seeing 54 FAF for Sheik and 48 FAF for Kirby, for both partial and full charge. KH had 48 listed for Sheik's partial charge and 54 for full charge before, but I'm not sure how we're getting to 54/54 Sheik and 48/48 Kirby from that.

 

[Darklink401]

Somethin weird just happened

I was testing Vanish to see about the new KBG and one of the times I was hit at 128%, from the center of the stage (as Villager) I went barely past the stage ledge, but the move clearly did 12 damage which is normal for Vanish

Uhhh what?

 

[SNesu]

What I noticed in Little Mac.

UpSmash sourspot uncharged = 15% -> 16% / Charged = 21% -> 22%
Sweetspot uncharged = 20% -> 21% / Charged = 28% -> 29%

FSmash(uppercut) sourspot uncharged = 17% -> 20% / Charged = 23% -> 25%
Sweetspot uncharged = 19% -> 20% / Charged = 26% -> 28%

FSmash(normal) sourspot uncharged = 17% -> 18% / Charged = 23% -> 25%
Sweetspot uncharged = 19% -> 20% / Charged = 26% -> 28%

FSmash(down) uncharged = 22% -> 24% / Charged = 30% -> 33%

DSmash uncharged = 12% ->13% / Charged = 16% -> 18%

(Still to be tested)
KO Uppercut = kills 1-2% earlier
D-throw + side b no longer combo in early %

 

[FPhantasm]

Falco looks like he has slightly more knockback on downsmash ? (mute the video because this was taken during school lol)

(patch 1.1.3)

(patch 1.1.4)

 

[FallofBrawl]

Somethin weird just happened

I was testing Vanish to see about the new KBG and one of the times I was hit at 128%, from the center of the stage (as Villager) I went barely past the stage ledge, but the move clearly did 12 damage which is normal for Vanish

Uhhh what?

Maybe a new hitbox, that's weird.

Try slowing it down and test getting hit from the outside of Sheiks vanish vs the inside of her vanish.

 

[Darklink401]

Maybe a new hitbox, that's weird.

Try slowing it down and test getting hit from the outside of Sheiks vanish vs the inside of her vanish.

I'll try to replicate it o.o'' it certainly was odd..

 

[Dinofan1000]

Can't confirm but Falco appears to have less startup on both side-B and dash attack, but that might just be me.

Can someone confirm that?

 

[Luig]

Can't confirm but Falco appears to have less startup on both side-B and dash attack, but that might just be me.

Can someone confirm that?

They are both unchanged.

 

[Ryusuta]

So, I've got a question. The patch notes said Marth's frame data has been changed, but said nothing about Lucina's. Does this mean they no longer have the exact same frame data? Because if so, that's absolute GARBAGE.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm not sure what's up here; I'm seeing 54 FAF for Sheik and 48 FAF for Kirby, for both partial and full charge. KH had 48 listed for Sheik's partial charge and 54 for full charge before, but I'm not sure how we're getting to 54/54 Sheik and 48/48 Kirby from that.

It's just more of that charge window stuff. Like how Link's grounded spin attack is "frame 4" or how Marth's Shield Breaker is "frame 8" and "IASA 40" (or whatever the game says it is)

 

[S_B]

So, I've got a question. The patch notes said Marth's frame data has been changed, but said nothing about Lucina's. Does this mean they no longer have the exact same frame data? Because if so, that's absolute GARBAGE.

I think Lucina is intended to be a slower power hitter while Marth is the nimble acrobatic swordsman.

I personally like that they're trying to differentiate the clones a bit.

 

[TurboLink]

Link doesn't need it. He's fantastic in the competitive scene and he has amazing combos. They may not be true combos, but staying up close, Link can punish most anything as long as they are not Sonic or Rosalina... or really the top 7 characters in the game.

I really liked this patch. No big changes. No characters really need them except Samus with her melee game and Palutena. To me, this was a great patch. Pretty much everyone is good. The only changes I really wanted was to have a slight bit of lag on ZSS' UAir and decrease the range on Sheik's FAir. That's it.

Also, anyone find anything with Cloud? I can't test it against a previous patch, but it feels like nothing is changed on him. Anyone else?

Do you even understand your own character? Link can't afford to stay up close.

Fantastic? Sheik is fantastic. Zero Suit Samus is fantastic. Link is not. He's not as bad as Samus, Zelda, or Jigglypuff. But he still isn't viable. Please stop this nonsense.

Note: I'm not saying Link should be top-tier like Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[FlynnCL]

Are we sure that weight/Vanish knockback are the only changes Sheik received? There's something weird going on with Kirby's Needles.

Ancient patch from a long time ago: Kirby and Sheik had the same Needles.
Some patch later: Sheik Needles endlag was increased, but they forgot to change Kirby's. Kirby's Needles therefore had less lag.
Another patch after that: Kirby's Needles updated to reflect the nerf, now they both have the same endlag.
This patch: Kirby's Needles have less endlag than Sheik's once again.

Does this mean Sheik's Needles were nerfed again, or was the change to Kirby's Needles reverted? What's going on?

I really need someone to double check these numbers...

Kirby's Needle Storm (full charge) total duration is 47 frames. Sheik is 53 frames.

Kirby's Needle Storm (1-5 needles) total duration is 41 frames. I keep getting 46 frames for Sheik which doesn't match up with the data on Kurogane Hammer. I'd like someone to double check!

They also both take 99 frames of charging to reach that spark on their portrait, so they're identical there.

 

[Lavani]

It's just more of that charge window stuff. Like how Link's grounded spin attack is "frame 4" or how Marth's Shield Breaker is "frame 8" and "IASA 40" (or whatever the game says it is)

I was saying this from testing them in training, I don't have IASA in the data I'm looking at on the side.

EDIT: My numbers for partial are a lot higher than Flynn's though (I'm seeing same total for both partial and full charge for the respective characters), so I dunno

 

[jespoke]

It's still 130KBG 70BKB.


Sorry, I don't know my way around effect.bin files.


I'm not sure what's up here; I'm seeing 54 FAF for Sheik and 48 FAF for Kirby, for both partial and full charge. KH had 48 listed for Sheik's partial charge and 54 for full charge before, but I'm not sure how we're getting to 54/54 Sheik and 48/48 Kirby from that.

I think this warrants testing on 1.1.3 to see how it was there... Wait a sec, i have been kicking myself over forgetting my gamepad charger to set up internet to update, but now it lets me test on the old patch.
BRB while i try my hand at frame counting

 

[Vipermoon]

So, I've got a question. The patch notes said Marth's frame data has been changed, but said nothing about Lucina's. Does this mean they no longer have the exact same frame data? Because if so, that's absolute GARBAGE.

They are both received the same frame data changes. Lucina is a WAY bigger winner here though. Her damage increases are much much larger than what Marth got (for like the 4th patch or something she once again gets damage buffs that Marth doesn't). Lucina's aerials are pretty much Marth's old tippers. Like seriously, if you want free tipper aerials, play Lucina. Super annoying honestly.

 

[DC| Reset Bomb Jigglypuff]

*silently prays for puff Changes*

 

[SM Mystic]

Files data/animcmd/fighter/zelda/effect.bin and ../../113/romfs/data/animcmd/fighter/zelda/effect.bin differ Someone tell me what this change is please? It's bugging me to death.

 

[Chiroz]

Somethin weird just happened

I was testing Vanish to see about the new KBG and one of the times I was hit at 128%, from the center of the stage (as Villager) I went barely past the stage ledge, but the move clearly did 12 damage which is normal for Vanish

Uhhh what?

Were you crouching? This game has crouch cancelling which reduces knockback by about 40%.

 

[jespoke]

I'm new to testing frames, but i'm definitely getting a difference between full charge and partial charge endlag on 1.1.3, 54 and 48 respectively i think (Measured in increments of 2 frames as that is the shortest i can consistently tap L so this is not reliable, just a pointer)

 

[Chiroz]

I really need someone to double check these numbers...

Kirby's Needle Storm (full charge) total duration is now 47 frames. Sheik is 53 frames.

Kirby's Needle Storm (1-5 needles) total duration is now 41 frames. I keep getting 46 frames for Sheik which doesn't match up with the data on Kurogane Hammer. I'd like someone to double check!

They also both take 99 frames of charging to reach that spark on their portrait, so they're identical there.

This would mean Kirby's needles were reverted to pre-patch.

 

[Ryusuta]

They are both received the same frame data changes. Lucina is a WAY bigger winner here though. Her damage increases are much much larger than what Marth got (for like the 4th patch or something she once again gets damage buffs that Marth doesn't). Lucina's aerials are pretty much Marth's old tippers. Like seriously, if you want free tipper aerials, play Lucina. Super annoying honestly.

Whew. Hopefully they put that on the patch notes, since it had me worried and confused. =)

(Edit: Quoted the wrong post.)

 

[Scootch]

Could someone please test for changes in Yoshi and Diddy Kong? Thank you.

 

[TurboLink]

They are both received the same frame data changes. Lucina is a WAY bigger winner here though. Her damage increases are much much larger than what Marth got (for like the 4th patch or something she once again gets damage buffs that Marth doesn't). Lucina's aerials are pretty much Marth's old tippers. Like seriously, if you want free tipper aerials, play Lucina. Super annoying honestly.

But doesn't Marth still have more range and knockback on his aerials?

 

[Vipermoon]

FlynnCL Oh yeah I forgot you told me that DB1 was 41 frames. That's odd. For sure it was 42 before, confirmed by many sources. No way it was a mistake.

But doesn't Marth still have more range and knockback on his aerials?

Yeah he has more damage and range on Nair and Fair. No doubt Lucina received the same hitbox adjustments (I'd be very surprised if she didn't) it's just that the damage buffs she received are much greater than the ones Marth did.

 

[PHP]

Palutena's forward tilt was changed a little, the frame data seems identical to last patch but it links hits more consistently (tested on Pit)

In patch 1.1.3 it stop linking at about 80~90

In patch 1.1.4 it keeps linking hits until 145+

Also can someone please check if down tilt tilt has a different angle? (just set it to 150%)

And Zelda's side B hit box size and growth looks allot bigger

 

[Darklink401]

Were you crouching? This game has crouch cancelling which reduces knockback by about 40%.

I know about crouch cancelling. But I was running at the time.

 

[Ghostgodzilla]

Can some one check Yoshi please? Anything you can find would be appreciated.

 

[FlynnCL]

Is Needle Storm the only suspected revert in Kirby's copy abilities? I'm not very knowledgeable about Kirby's previous changes or if there's any other possible reverts.

FlynnCL Oh yeah I forgot you told me that DB1 was 41 frames. That's odd. For sure it was 42 before, confirmed by many sources. No way it was a mistake.

Yeah. That change makes a lot more sense now that LordWilliam1234 has confirmed it's actually the start-up that was reduced by 1 frame.

Marth is getting a lot of love in this patch, and I can't wait to see the hitbox data arrive.

 

[S_B]

I know about crouch cancelling. But I was running at the time.

What about run cancelling?

But seriously, Sheik may have a sourspot on vanish now...

 

[jespoke]

I tried Kirby's Sheik needles on 1.1.3 and... got partial/full charge endlag of 42/50... that doesn't match up with anything... I got it consistently 3 times in a row too.

Im guessing the "50" i got is actually the 48, and my 2 frame margin of error is kicking me. But the 42 is there for real, so did Kirby and Sheik both get 6 frames on their partial charge needles, even if they were different to begin with?

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm excited cus it was always weird that "attacks leave trails in the air" was supposed to be a focus/improvement in smash 4 but then things like marth's trails were pretty off. It seems like the visuals are the same, but like you said the visuals have less dead space. It's weird that ftilt has more horizontal reach than fsmash, but probably just due to tradition changing.

I think Lucina may have increased range too. I did feel that ftilt seemed to be reaching further because the visual of the trail was barely in reach of the opponent. Also I wonder if upsmash has increased hitboxes (shockwave and/or sword)? Pugwest said it does. Yesterday, I was charging an upsmash at the ledge (lucina's front foot was maybe 1-2 lengths of her foot away from the ledge), bayonetta used getup roll instead of standing getup, and my shockwave still connected. This ofc could just be that bayonetta has a shorter getup roll and/or shorter invincibility on her getup roll though.

I have no proof or anything but it's something to investigate.


Also there was a comparison of marth's fair on 3ds between 1.1.3 and 1.1.4. The foot is further back on the 1.1.4 picture but it also seems marth is lower in the air, and thus more horizontal to WFT. And since marth has the most horizontal reach somewhere when his sword is parallel to the ground, that could be affecting why it seems his fair has more range (or if fair did get more range, it could be making it look like it has more range than what was actually added)?

I bet Lucina has the same hitbox size increases, it would be super weird if she didn't. Pugwest caught the placebo illness for that one. Usmash dust cloud was always pretty stupid and I didn't notice anything.

Fair's frame 7 is parallel to the ground in every patch, even in Brawl and Melee (although for those games it is frame 5). Fair definitely got larger, and it shows in many ways like how Fthrow to Fair is easier. But really, why discuss it when we'll have the numbers eventually?

 

[MOI-ARI]

If anyone has gotten this result also, i got it too.

Charizard's Upsmash has changed.

Usmash whiffs its second hit if facing AWAY. [[where pre-patch. The hit connected always ,facing away]] Only tested with MARIO in both 1.1,.3 and current.


-So Hit 1 of Usmash has lowered/altered KB for better linking into Hit 2?

 

[Radical Larry]

Do you even understand your own character? Link can't afford to stay up close.

Fantastic? Sheik is fantastic. Zero Suit Samus is fantastic. Link is not. He's not as bad as Samus, Zelda, or Jigglypuff. But he still isn't viable. Please stop this nonsense.

You know, Link actually is better than you think. And don't even go rate him with the likes of Sheik and ZSS, of course they're fantastic, they're the two best characters in the game currently.

Now let me tell you something; despite the other maybe not knowing his own character, I know a lot of my character. And about your whole thing of him not affording to stay up close, he would need to be close up for an attack that can KO, his Jab > U-Spec combo and oh yeah, anything else. Link has to be close in order to do anything, saying that he can't afford to be up close is like saying Rosalina can't afford to have Luma.

Link is a character you just can't stay back with. He, like Toon Link, needs to get in at some point for an attack, a setup, a finisher, all that. And Link not being fantastic is actually more fallacious than you think. Is he fantastic? No. Is he nonviable? Also no. You don't even know much about Link in this game due to the lack of people playing him, but I know a lot about him from Izaw at first, then expanded knowledge through rigorous training and trying to find all sorts of things.

...

Now this is going back to the topic, does anyone have any stats for Link's frame data? I want my answer about Jab 1 being faster or slower.